BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Mrrzy
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 01:05 PM

Israeli is the nationality, right, not jewish.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 01:49 PM

Bobad hasn't read the article. He's been indulging frantically in confirmation bias all afternoon instead. It's what he does.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 02:03 PM

Then why bother talking to him Steve
Anyybody who blames the Jewish people for state terrorism and ethnic cleansing isn't worth talking to him
BAbout time to give him an Iains - he's a troll
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 02:03 PM

Then why bother talking to him Steve
Anyybody who blames the Jewish people for state terrorism and ethnic cleansing isn't worth talking to him
BAbout time to give him an Iains - he's a troll
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: bobad
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 02:04 PM

All Israelis are citizens with equal rights in the nation state of the Jewish people.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 02:06 PM

Read the article.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: bobad
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 02:15 PM

In an October 2013 decision, the Israeli Supreme Court denied the request to recognize "Israeli" as a nationality, and gave several essential reasons for supporting a specific "Jewish" nationality over a general "Israeli" nationality.

First, since it is reasonable to assume that a person cannot have two nationalities, this change would compel Jewish citizens of Israel to choose between being "Israeli" and "Jewish." Most Israeli Jews would be forced into an impossible predicament: we see ourselves as both Jewish and Israeli, and one does not exclude the other.

Second, if the nationality of Jewish citizens of Israel were to be classified as "Israeli," the implication would be that Judaism is not a nationality for them but is solely a religion. This idea is antithetical to the fundamental doctrine of Zionism and its main thinkers, from Herzl to Ben-Gurion, who saw Zionism as the national movement of the Jewish people.

Third, if the nationality of Jewish Israelis is defined as "Israeli" rather than "Jewish," then the "national" bond we believe binds together Jews in Israel and Jews in the Diaspora will be severed.

The Court dealt with this last point extensively. It adopted the position that one of Israel's essential characteristics as a "Jewish state" is its responsibility for the fate of the entire Jewish people—including the Jews of the Diaspora. For example, the Israeli penal code applies to crimes that are committed against Jews "because they are Jews" even if those crimes are committed outside of Israel, and applies to property of Jewish institutions that is vandalized because it is Jewish as well. The State of Israel has thus taken upon itself the duty of protecting world Jewry as a profound expression of global Jewish solidarity.

The responsibility of the State of Israel for world Jewry is an important expression of the fact that Israel is not an ordinary democratic state, but also a "Jewish state." Though we may be divided by geography and citizenship, Israeli and American Jews—and their brothers and sisters around the world—are members of one nation.

Thus, it is imperative for the State of Israel to distinguish between citizenship and nationality. Israeli Jews and Israeli Arabs share a common citizenship. They are both Israeli, and are therefore entitled to and must be accorded the same civil rights. But they are not members of the same nation.

Nationality, according to the Israeli Supreme Court, is derived from objective traits such as religion, culture, and collective historical memory. This is another manifestation of the puzzle of identities characterizing the Jewish nation state. As a country that holds itself as both a democracy and the homeland of the Jewish people, debates will continue as to who is a Jew and who is an Israeli. What matters most is that we approach these debates in a respectful and consistent manner. The future of Israel depends on it.

Prof. Yedidia Z. Stern is Vice President of Research at the Israel Democracy Institute and a professor of law at Bar-Ilan University. Jay Ruderman is President of the Ruderman Family Foundation.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Mossback
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 06:50 PM

There's no up side to engaging with fuckwits, gentlemen. Take care, or next you'll be wasting breath on The Bearded One.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 08:41 PM

Correct. And he really doesn't want to read that article, does he? Nil credibility until he does and until he responds to it.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 03:39 AM

HOW EQUAL ARABS ARE IN ISRAEL
THIS EQUAL

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 03:53 AM

AND THIS
AND THIS
REALLY EQUAL
A "SELF-HATING" JEW CONDEMNS TREATMENT OF ARABS


Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 07:06 AM

About time we left the Troll to wade in his own swill
Michael Gove has announced that a Brexit crash-out will need to involve a re-establishment of Direct Rule from Westminster Britain's the interests of Britain and the Six Counties are to remain the same
This is tantamount to throwing way all the gains thet have been made since The Good Friday Agreement and will almost inevitably bring violent conflict that much nearer
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: beachcomber
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 08:58 AM

Gove putting pressure on the Irish Gov to abandon the Backstop ??

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 09:14 AM

DETAILS HERE
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 11:05 AM

I read it as Gove putting pressure on the DUP to back May's deal - cuz I think they've got used to striding around in their big ole boots, and a more emphatic rule from Westminster will sure put a crimp in that particular style of footwear. It'll mean they're not the biggest kids on the block anymore. And their pet bribemaster will most likely not be leader for much longer, so no help there. Ooooops.

Foster also needs to ponder long and hard about her party's chances, come local election time, if she throws their farmers and small businesses under the bus via a threat of no-deal (which would also increase the likelihood of a border poll).

I see that she's actually spoken to Varadkar - ah, the power of St Paddy's Day in Amerikay...

So Gove may just be putting the frighteners on her. And she IS making softer noises now than in days of yore.

Still... Michael. Gove. As greased an eel as they come.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 12:15 PM

I saw an interview in which he said it would be logistically impossible to push on with a breakout Brexiit without returning to Direct Rule - may be bluff, of course
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 01:53 PM

So how come we can't have equality between Protestants and Catholics in either of the Irelands, which, let's face it, have been around a lot longer than modern Israel?
And, unlike other countries, does not Ireland still have a Blasphemy law?

notice how I'm making a comment well within the original intent of the thread?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 02:27 PM

"Equality between Protestants and Catholics [not to mention the other religions] in either of the Irelands"...???
I've lived in the Republic for most of my adult life - nearly 30 years - and I have no idea what exactly you even mean. When were you last here, and for how long?

Blasphemy law got kicked off the books some time ago. Won the referendum by a healthy majority.

https://www.rte.ie/news/2018/1027/1007130-blasphemy-referendum/

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Iains
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 03:48 PM

interesting article on tensions between Catholics and Protestants.
" Statistically, Protestants do tend to be bigger farmers, but there are plenty from poorer or working-class backgrounds "

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/the-secret-lives-of-ireland-s-protestants-1.2955670

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 04:09 PM

Notice the dates on those stories... they go back to the 1940s and 50s. The Ireland of today is a very different place even from when I was first here in the early 70s. And it was already changing then. That’s a research project concerning social history, not a discussion of modern times.

The rate of change here has been rapid, even from when I first moved here in 91. The old walls falling away remind me of nothing so much as a row of dominoes.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 09:08 PM

The news of the Troubles was clear enough to indicate modern sectarian tensions which have risen and fallen over hundreds of years. What do you think this thread is about?

There is a rather complete summary by country of blasphemy law
in Wikipedia

I remember conversation in Mudcat last year regarding Stephen Fry getting some notoriety on the Irish radio. The referendum dates from October of last year. But there are still some references to blasphemy in Irish law, according to the article. (I tend to believe Wikipedia but I have no easy way to validate it).

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 04:24 AM

I took "equality between Protestants and Catholics in either of the Irelands" as referring to both sides of the border. And with regard to the Republic, if you mean the power of religion, you're out of date. Things have changed - shifted - dramatically, and they're evolving all the time. All the google searches in the world don't negate that. Come spend some time here, get your ear to the ground, and then judge.

The blasphemy law was overturned by public referendum by about two-thirds to one-third, and the Stephen Fry thing (which happened back in 2015) was what helped push it out. Somebody reported him to the gardai, who took a statement and said they'd look into it. But "a well-placed source said it was 'highly unlikely' that a prosecution would take place."* Nor did it.

"Atheist Ireland said it welcomed the garda investigation into Mr Fry for blasphemy, saying it 'highlights a law that is silly, silencing, and dangerous'."
A.I. then went on to publish a whole string of blasphemous quotes to deliberately challenge it, to the great glee of many (including me). And... crickets.

Believe me, I know perfectly well what this thread is about. I remember going from being searched by men with live machine guns at the border crossings, to whizzing through on a dual carriageway and only knowing we were on the other side when the road signs went from miles to kilometres. Nobody who has to live with the consequences wants to go back to the bad old days.


* https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/garda-launch-blasphemy-probe-into-stephen-fry-comments-on-the-meaning-of-life-35684262.html

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 04:26 AM

"Notice the dates on those stories.."
Always handy to those who wish to depict the Irish as backward "bogtrotters" Bonnie

Protestants and Catholics have got on pretty well in the South since since Independence, even more so since the slackening of influence of the Church following the Clerical Abuse revelations
The same goes for BLASPHEMY LAWS

THe North still has to hold enquiries into clerical abuse in the Six Counties, IN SPITE OF DEMANDS THAT THEY SHOULD TAKE PLACE

One of the effects of the changes in law over pregnancy termination in the South was to promote calls for Northern women to be extended the same rights
THE APPEASEMENT OF THE DUP BY THE TORIES seems to put the block on that one
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 04:37 AM

Cross Posted there Bonnie
You are right, people need to come and see for themselves rather than leaning on the old stereotypes
Britain never has quite shaken off the old PIG IN THE KITCHEN image of the |Irish so beloeved by Trevelyan and his ilk
(Donchal love the May with the bag of bung money mural?)
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 04:49 AM

I spent a lovely couple of weeks in and around Listowel some years back. We attended a Sean McCarthy memorial event in his home village of Finuge where I met his widow. At the event there were a few Irish Republican songs, stories and jokes about the British but I never felt threatened at all. In a pub in Listowel where I, as a Mancunian, bumped into the Listowel branch of the Chelsea supporters club when Chelsea had just lost to Manchester United, I had to tell some lads at the bar I was from Bolton :-)

Football is the new religion!

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 05:27 AM

"Football is the new religion!"
FIFA abuse - the mind boggles
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: KarenH
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 05:56 AM

Funny because I live in the UK and have walked out of places where Irish people have demanded to hear songs about killing Englishmen.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: KarenH
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 06:00 AM

Not to mention the recent parcel bombs in London and Glasgow for which a group claiming to be the new IRA claimed responsibility. These people chose to behave in this way, and I for one do not think the potato famine justifies, excuses or even explains it. They chose it.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Iains
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 07:05 AM

Always handy to those who wish to depict the Irish as backward "bogtrotters" Bonnie

Making the usual mistake of a curmugeon. Totally misunderstand what was said and fire off the hip with a totally unrelated response concerning you bandwagon of the moment(nothing new there!)

Despite all the changes in recent decades in many places Protestants hold the better farms and the Anglo Irish aristocracy still retain the sporting rights over tracts of land subsequently sold as freehold or held as commonage.

" The vast estates owned by aristocratic landlords were mostly broken up as a result of the
land acts , which allowed tenants to buy their land, but some families have maintained huge holdings."
As an example:The wealthiest scion of the brewing family, Ned Guinness, the Earl of Iveagh, has concentrated on his interests in England recently.He owns the 22,000-acre Elveden estate in Suffolk, making him one of the largest land owners in the UK. It is also a working estate and the Earl is reckoned to grow about 10pc of all the onions eaten in the UK.After selling Farmleigh to the State for €29m, the family retained a 700-acre cattle farm at Kilrue, Mulhuddart, Co Dublin"
Peregrine Andrew Mornay Cavendish, the 12th Duke of Devonshire, owns an 8,000 acre estate in the south-east, based around Lismore Castle in Co Waterford. The family also owns Careysville House on 200 acres in Co Cork and include a 20-mile stretch of the River Blackwater with valuable fishing rights. The estate may be vast by Irish standards, but it is a mere cabbage patch compared to his English holdings of 70,000 acres, which are mainly in Yorkshire and Derbyshire.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 09:35 AM

"Irish people have demanded to hear songs about killing Englishmen."
Just as our folk clubs have been presenting songs about killing the French, Germans..... and jsut about everybody else going back centuries
on;tr be silly Karen - wars always produce songs
Did you know that that after some of the sorties in Ireland (where British soldiers conspired with sectarian terrorist groups) the soldiers took trophies from the events and made up songs, hung them on the wall of the NAFFIs and made up about their adventures
An archivist friend went to The North to purchase examples of sone of the songs being made - one of the prizes in his collection was a Loyalist cassette enitled 'The Pope's a Darkie'
Grow up please Karen there are no good sides in war - only winners, losers and the dead
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: robomatic
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 03:50 PM

The "Troubles" are NOT ancient history, as anyone aware of the extremes AND the complexities can readily attest. To imagine' that one knows what all others' think (bogtrotters) is to be oneself entrapped in a web of one's own prejudices (The pointing finger and the other four pointing back kind-of-thing).

An interesting thing going on recently that no one has mentioned is the use of the
Palestinian and the Israeli flag by Catholic and Protestant partisans going on right now. I don't know when this started, but it is relatively fresh because it wasn't going on when I was in Eire.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 03:59 AM

Interesting turn of events with the flags robomatic. Thanks for the links. A snippet from the first one, "Should further atrocities be perpetrated on Israelis in the coming days and weeks", reminded me of something posted on another thread recently.

Accuse the other side of that which you are guilty

Attributed to Joseph Goebbals. Looks like the side most affected by his party are now using the same tactics :-(

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 04:18 AM

"The "Troubles" are NOT ancient history, "
Very true, and they will never be a thing of the past until the border is removed - I'm not a nationalist in any shapeor form, but even I know that, it's simply common sense
Catholics and Protestants outside politics have always got on - their religion dictates that they do
The problem has always been when politicians use such differences to divide and rule
The British Government has just succumbed to trying the perpetrators of The Bloody Sunday Massacre long after previous Government have declared it a crime and have apologised
Their way out of the problem has ben to choose a scapegoat
The families of the victims are obviously not happy,but they have shown far more dignity and tolerance than have the British establishment ever have
It remains to be seen what will happen now
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Iains
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 05:17 AM

Very true, and they will never be a thing of the past until the border is removed - I'm not a nationalist in any shapeor form, but even I know that, it's simply common sense

Only common sense if both sides agree to it,otherwise it is stupidity.
The border is between two different countries. Those flags and drums paraded each year in the north are not to say Hi-de-Hi to the Pope.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: KarenH
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 05:32 AM

Jim provides such good material when you feel like a laugh to cheer you up. Here's the latest gem:

"Catholics and Protestants outside politics have always got on - their religion dictates that they do."


Where do you start unpicking nonsense like this?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: KarenH
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 05:37 AM

I don't feel entirely comfortable in agreeing to what Iains says, because I disagree with him so often, but he is of course right in pointing out that the violence came from both protestant and catholic communities.

As Jim himself reminded us, it was to protect the catholic community in northern ireland from violence on the part of some in the protestant community that the army was sent in prior to the outbread of the big troubles in the 20th century.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: KarenH
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 05:38 AM

Not sure why Jim uses the word 'succumbed'. Odd usage in that context.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: KarenH
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 05:41 AM

Well, Jim, the hatreds will never die down when there are people like you to keep them alive.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 05:44 AM

Why won't you respond to what has been said Karen ?
Your refusal to do say is as loud as any answer
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 06:32 AM

The oly hatred here is your and Iains
Your racist stereotyping if the Irish as a people who need Britain from keeping them for killing each other - Iains constantly referring to people to people who live in Ireland as "bog-dwellers"
In taking sides with Iains you are part of a minority of three - the only other person to support Iains here is the hate-filled troll, Bobad
Enjoy your threesome
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: KarenH
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 07:12 AM

Of course, and this point is linked to Iains' point that violence comes from more than one camp, if or when Northern Ireland unites with the Irish Republic, Great Britain can expect an influx of immigrants/refugees from the former Northern Ireland. Not expressing a view in favour of or against, but it seems inevitable.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: KarenH
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 07:21 AM

This 'why don't you respond' is one of Jim's less interesting strategies and for me it proves nothing, especially when the person has responded. Jim's use of it proves .. oh I cannot be bothered to descend to that level.

I will just say that of one thing I am certain, the Irish are not a 'race'. As it happens I believe that 'race' is a social construct not a biological fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 07:39 AM

If you regard discussion as a "strategy" why bother taking part in a discussion forum ?
The only thing you are doing here is demonstrating how British and its hatred of Ireland and the Irish have caused so much bloodshed down the centuries
Your attitude is not only racist, it is now becoming downright offensive
You have found yourself a very apt bedfellow
TRY AGAIN
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: KarenH
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 08:08 AM

Threesome? Jim seems to do it all by himself. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: KarenH
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 08:14 AM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_lines

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 09:25 AM

THe "Peace Lines" in your link are thaose that have become necessary since Britain forcibly partitioned Ireland and created a sectarian state
They were put in place in 1969 when a Civil Rights march demanding equal rights with the two thirds majority which had been created by artificially dividing Ireland into two separate states

In essence, the warring factions were not Irish versus Irish but Irish Catholics fighting Britons
You might like to bear this fact in mind - originally the intention was to make the whole of Ulster a State - them someone did the math and realised that this would not create the majority Britain needed, so the knocked off three of the Ulster Counties - Ireland was deliberately divided into a sectarian dominated State
It was the dominant sectarian Loyalists who fired the first shots in The Troubles, just as it was the same people who threw te stones and turned peaceful protests into a murderous bloody war
The Irish have never been at war with The Irish - Britain has always been regarded as the oppressor
I suggest you read what you put up - the information is all there
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Iains
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 12:20 PM

Oh Dear! he is not very good at history is he? More once "upon a time"
rubbish. If everyone else had his distorted totally bigoted view od events the violence would be ongoing. Luckily only a very small minority of only one hold such divisive views.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 01:47 PM

DETAILS HERE
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: robomatic
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 01:37 AM

I think the current nature of the inheritance of the bitter times is the uncertain economic future we are entering thanks to the uncontrolled BREXIT we are heading for. Should the need come for a 'hard border', old demons are feared to arise and with the prospect of humans dressed in uniforms and border stops and inspections and waiting lines of tourists, commuters and goods, there will be a temptation for those with old grievances to once more set match to combustible or worse.


No one forgets where the hatchet is buried.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish V Irish V British & the Famine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 03:43 AM

"No one forgets where the hatchet is buried."
It was never really buried - annual triumphal displays of superiority and aggression have made sure of that
One of the great features of these displays has been the flying of The Union Jack - a reminder of who is still in charge up there
This was never Irish v Irish, nor really was it altogether religious - they were politically based and manipulated
I served my apprenticeship on the Liverpool docks - for almost the entire year the area was a community - come 'The Glorious Twelfth', shops were boarded up the streets became a no-go area - the following day, back to normal
I assume things have now greatly improved now, as they were beginning to in the North of Ireland
Now that is being threatened - politics again
Jim