Folk expert

Subject: Folk expert
From: GUEST,Geordie boy
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 09:13 AM

Sang a song recently in a folk club. Later on one of the other participants came over to me, ostensibly to congratulate me on my performance but in fact to show off his vast knowledge of folk music by starting to tell me I'd missed out a verse. I sussed him straight away and pre-empted him by quoting the verse and saying I won't sing it because it's crap.
The folk police are everywhere....

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: GUEST,Wm
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 10:03 AM

Boy, you sure showed him.

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: GUEST,kenny
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 10:27 AM

Why does he become "the folk police" ? Maybe he was just trying to help, but I get the feeling that that would never have occurred to you.

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 10:35 AM

What was the song and offending verse?

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: John P
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 10:37 AM

It's easy to tell the difference between someone trying to help and someone who thinks they know the one true way and wants to make sure you are aware of how you are doing it wrong. It's easy to tell the difference even if they are acting like they just want to help. I think part of the reason it rankles is the blind assumption that you don't know what you are doing or why. I also find it extremely irritating to be criticized in the middle of a performance. I have to work extra hard to not have it be a mood killer. Not the place or the time for that.

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 10:39 AM

"Maybe he was just trying to help,"
Apparently that doesn't occur to some people
The term itself oozes of 'folk police'
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 11:54 AM

Missed a verse? Just a different version surely.

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 12:04 PM

Folk Experts should dress and talk like Blakey out of on the Buses...

Well.. that's how I'll imagine them...

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 12:16 PM

Any performer who considers him/herself above taking advice needs to stay at home and sing to the rubber duck in the bath
If you sing in public any audience worth its salt is going to discuss your singing
I'd rather know what they are saying than have it happen out of my hearing
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 12:26 PM

Jim - conversely.. no matter how well intentioned, or benignly expressed;
offering friendly helpful advice can carry risks of a hostile reception from over-sensitive and defensive folks with fragile egos...

I'd keep me gob shut....

However, if someone asks me for my opinion they'll get it as constuctively as possible without sugar coating...

But even then, even good old mates can still get the hump and take it too personally...

no win situation...???

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 12:37 PM

Surely the crux of this problem, was what song ..and what verse.
Burns songs for example should never be butchered.
Perhaps the OP found the verse offensive? If that was the case, would it not have been better to avoid the song altogether?

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: Acorn4
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 01:13 PM

It normally starts:-

"I think you might find that....!

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 01:34 PM

"offering friendly helpful advice can carry risks of a hostile reception from over-sensitive and defensive folks with fragile egos..."
Perhaps people with such problems should think twice before appearing before an audience until they have conquered such an affliction - doing so is as necessary as learning to sing in tune
Of course, the opposite should be the case, any advice given should be delivered with a degree of sensitivity
Having worked in a group that was based on mutual friendly advice, I really did learn how much it helped to conquer so many problems
People you describe are just as likely to work themselves into a cold sweat if nobody comments on their singing - so what do you do, keep good advice to yourself ?
From personal experience, once you come to terms that everything you do is not going to be good, once you get used to the idea that you can learn from others and learn to accept advice, you will never be nervous in front of an audience again
Of all the problems I have as a singer, nervousness (the cause of many singing flaws) has never been one of them for over half century
Jim

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: meself
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 01:39 PM

The crux of the problem for me is that I don't know the OP, I don't know what the song is, I don't know what the 'crap' verse is, I don't know who the 'folk expert' is, I don't know who the 'folk police' are (they're always undercover), and I'm wasting my time responding when I should be working. Okay, gotta go.

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 02:05 PM

Saying "I won't sing it because it's crap" may not have brought out the best in whoever the original poster was talking to, either. If the verse is from the oral-tradition (and even if it isn't), an awful lot of people through the ages have thought it worthy of learning and singing. Otherwise it wouldn't have been passed on and survived.

Of course times change, and what were acceptable speech patterns or attitudes in bygone eras are often - rightly - not so now. But stating that something is "crap", as though that's a hard fact and not simply personal opinion, throws the matter wide open to debate. IF we knew what we were debating.

The other guy may indeed have been a pompous pain in the ass, who knows? But he could just have been irked at such a blanket condemnation. Is the verse "crap" on grounds of political correctness? Clumsy wording by literary standards past or present? Reflecting some sentiment or other that the listener finds annoying (e.g. praising a king or queen, if you're a staunch republican)? Or because a contemporary mindset has been imposed on a piece of historical culture and its society?

Like everybody else, I would really like to know what the song and verse are.

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: Iains
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 02:34 PM

This is rather like arguing over punctuation when the text is unseen!

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: Mr Red
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 02:37 PM

If you sing in public any audience worth its salt is going to discuss your singing

A friend stopped singing in clubs because he wanted his audience feel his angst. And they didn't necessarily. He was a good guitarist. But I took from the situation that everyone performs for their own reasons. And the audience take from it in their own way. Being told something can be "helpful", but sometimes it is to make themselves feel good, the inference that it reduces you is your inference, and is not automatically so.

I well remember telling someone about "Sprachan Light", quoting as near as I could from Ali Bain. The guy was not having any of it, I could hear the tone "I play it, I am the expert". FWIW even Tommy Anderson (says Ali Bain) was not sure himself if it was about the death of his wife or the cottage lights missing when young men drifted away from Island life.

Even truer of other people singing your songs. You have to let it go, they are not you. Don't have your intonation and may have more skills! But the first time it happens, it is strange.

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 02:43 PM

Interesting, Mr Red. I'd heard that the title of that gorgeous air was Da Slocket/Slockit Light, and that it referred to the extinguishing of a lamp or the dimming of light, meaning loss and deprivation. Or so an English fiddler told me. Wonderful tune, that one.

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: GUEST,Kenny B(inactive)
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 02:50 PM

I would like to ask … How many people sing all the verses of the "Star of the County Down" or the "Mountains of Mourne" or "Courtin in the Kitchen" "Carrickfergus" to name a few …. ive had folks say in a friendly fashion that they didn't know the songs had so many verses compared with the recorded versions.

It depends on how the OP was approached and taken to task? over a missed? verse.
Many folks have a bad manner when either speaking or writing that gets folks back up.

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: meself
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 02:57 PM

So far, the first response has been the best - and I quote: "Boy, you sure showed him!"

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: Andy7
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 03:26 PM

Someone once told me they enjoyed my second song.

I immediately thought, "So, what was wrong with my first song?"

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: Mr Red
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 03:51 PM

yea yea Da Slockit Light - I did the search and Google failed! If you know the answer so does Google. But then what good is Google then? I am increasing dependent on search (not Goggle actually) engines because, memory and Anno Domini are increasingly at odds.

Try listening to a Scottish Fiddler - one who was taught by the composer himself.

I have no reason to doubt Ali Bain, he was in awe of the man.

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 03:54 PM

Was it a Geordie song Geordie Boy?

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 03:55 PM

From: Bonnie Shaljean - PM
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 02:43 PM

Interesting, Mr Red. I'd heard that the title of that gorgeous air was Da Slocket/Slockit Light, and that it referred to the extinguishing of a lamp or the dimming of light, meaning loss and deprivation. Or so an English fiddler told me. Wonderful tune, that one."
I had tom andersons book and the notes on the tune,are along the lines of the lights being dimmed or going out in the fishing village.
Recently, I sang Bogies Bonny Belle to my knowledge there are two diferring endings, i was singing this song in an informal trad tune session but had been asked to sing a song, so i sang the version which ends so farewll huntly side and bogies bony belle, not twas i that took the maidenhead of bogies bony belle, a person i regularly do gigs with questiobned why i sang that version saying they had always heard[ the stealing maidenhead version, now it was not the time and place to discuss all that so i replied, yes i know of both versions but i think the maidenhead stealing version is crap,this produced a feisty outburst,which was embarrasing for everyone , so i suggested a that we play some more tunes.
now perhaps, i should have not said i thought it was crap, but i was giving my honest opinion, now knowing the person concerned well , i was go the impression they were insinuating that i had altered the song to be politically correct, frankly i did not care which was the original version i chose a version because i prefered the ending.
also many years previously when i was guest at a folk club in northwich some body had come up to me in the break and tried to tell me i should be singing the stealing maidenhead version. a bizarre deja vu which explains why i said the stealing maidenhead version was crap

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 04:03 PM

Tom Andersons notes in his book were definetely along the lines of walking out one evening looking out to sea and noticing how few lights there were and the change inspired him to write the sad air

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: GUEST,Cj
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 05:01 PM

I'm a folk expert, if anyone has any questions?

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: meself
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 06:05 PM

Who stole the maidenhead, then, if you're such an expert? And, in such circumstances, which version is politically correct?

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: GUEST,Cj
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 06:20 PM

It was a man called David, who actually lived in Maidenhead at the time. The politically correct version is the one without the word 'blabberwhack', which is now an inexcusable term of phrase.

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: meself
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 06:25 PM

Ahhh! That explains it! Well, I'd like to take this opportunity to thank - ??? - Who was that masked personage?

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 10:04 PM

Well if I've offended anyone discussing their music. I apologise.
I ask for multiple offences at times and dates unknown to be taken into consideration.

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: Andy7
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 03:25 AM

Someone once said to me, "You know you can't sing, don't you?"

Is that what they call constructive criticism?

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 03:46 AM

Andy, no it is not.Constructive ,would be more, try and get a note to start your song so you can pitch more where your voice lies, or you sang that shanty well you r voice is suitedto that kind of song. the other is just somebody passing on their bad mood

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 05:49 AM

Fiddler supreme, Kevin Burke, used to tell the story of being given a tune by an old fiddler in Sligo - every time he met the old man he would be asked to play it
After a while Kevin asked, "Why do you always request the tune you taught me - it's yours already?"
The old man replies "I want you to play it until you get the ****** thing right"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: John P
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 10:43 AM

We're not talking here about audiences discussing the music, which of course I love to do. We're not talking about asking about the interpretation of the song and making friendly comments, which is often fun and educational.

Here's an example of folk police behavior that was neither: we finished the first set with a Bulgarian tune played on the hurdy-gurdy and guitar. During the break, we were sitting on the edge of the stage talking with interested audience members about the music and the instruments when a loud voice interrupted to say, "I hope you don't tell people you play Baltic music, because that's not how they do it!". It was nasty heckling, and was rude to the audience members who were having the nice experience of hearing new music and new instruments. It put a dark cloud over the entire conversation that was going on, which made it completely inappropriate during an evening of folk music.

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 11:25 AM

You can't make a rule to stop people being unpleasant, because human beings are endlessly inventive at finding new ways to be unpleasant.

Also - some people are just socially inept and can't help acting and talking like a twat.

I'm not sure what you can do if you have someone or a group of folks who behave like this. It does happen. I suppose it wouldn't do for us all to be the same.

I suppose that's why they have security at night clubs to chuck out nasty sods. Perhaps your folk club isn't in a nice enough area. Not necessarily a posh area. Just one with a majority of nice people.

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: meself
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 01:32 PM

"I suppose it wouldn't do for us all to be the same."

As an uncle of mine used to say: "They can't all be like us!"

If the worse thing anyone said to me after or during a performance was that I'd left out a verse or I was playing it 'wrong', I suppose I would have a few less grey hairs, and a few less wrinkles - in other words, I'd look a little more like that young pretty-boy in my publicity shots ... !

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: Ged Fox
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 01:34 PM

"Someone once said to me, "You know you can't sing, don't you?"
Is that what they call constructive criticism? "

No, it means you should have been in the music room, not the library.

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: GUEST,Geordie boy
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 02:43 PM

John P - my experience was similar. It was not done in a friendly, helpful way. I'm old enough to know a self-important eejit when I meet one.
If you like what I do, say so. If not, say nowt. Don't presume to educate me.

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 04:24 PM

So what's wrong with "education"?

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: John P
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 05:44 PM

Education with quotation marks around it is the opposite of education, and I'm pretty sure that was what Geordie boy meant. "Education" is not appreciated when it is misguided, unasked for, uncalled for, inaccurate, and rudely delivered in an inappropriate setting.

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 06:11 PM

You have the undoubted right to remain ignorant.

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: GUEST,Geordie boy
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 06:14 PM

John P - love ya, baby!

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: John P
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 11:32 PM

Ah, anonymous guest troll, proving your own words, I see. Just think of all the things you could have learned if you were more interested in educating yourself than in being rude on the internet. Too late!

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 01:13 AM

Were we ever told what song it was, and what verse was left out? Without that information, this thread is totally useless.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: GUEST,Geordie boy
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 06:33 AM

With due respect, you miss the point, Joe

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: fat B****rd
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 08:43 AM

I didn't know Bulgaria was on the Baltic. Pedant fB

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 10:15 AM

I'm missing your point too I think Geordie boy.
Could you expand on your thoughts a bit?

Maybe I'm reading this wrong but to me it sounds like
A bloke came up to me and wanted to show off and put me down.
I showed off and put HIM down.
I won.

Did everyone go home a little upset?
:(
R
We don't need rude Folk Police but do we need a brigade of Folk Peace Keepers?

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: GUEST,Modette
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 10:23 AM

Angels. Dancing. Head of a pin. Discuss.

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 10:47 AM

"A bloke came up to me and wanted to show off and put me down.
I showed off and put HIM down.
I won."

So fair do's, Geordie Boy got his self-defense in first...

.. at least it wasn't a headbutt.....

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 11:24 AM

point of interest Geordie boy - thread drift. I used to work with this Geordie who called everyone a winnet. You're a daft winnet, he would say.
He would never tell anyone what a winnet was, but one night he got pissed and explained to me that a winnet was a turd, stuck up your bum. And winnet come out.

Is this a well known Geordie word?

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 11:37 AM

It would be helpful if people stopped using the word "folk" as a term of abuse
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 05:46 PM

As I knew it from my North East days a winnet was the remains of a bowel movement which had attached itself to the anal hairs (winnet come off) - sometimes referred to as clag nuts in the same vicinity.

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: meself
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 05:54 PM

It's hard to believe that in some places they don't even HAVE a word for that ... !

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 08:52 PM

a universal word throughout the cosmos... Klingons...

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: meself
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 10:44 PM

... um ... anyone else have the feeling this thread has run its course?

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 03:31 AM

I think it raises an interesting point
My experience of the folk scene was one of people saying what they thought about your songs and singing and being able to reciprocate
Nowadays terms like 'folk police' and 'purist' seems to have done away with all that nonsense
We used top have a saying in Liverpool, "Don't stick your bum out of the window if you don't want people to throw stones at it"
The same can be applied to singing in public, If you don't want other people's opinions and ideas, stay at home and sing to your rubber duck in the bath.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 05:35 AM

'We used top have a saying in Liverpool, "Don't stick your bum out of the window if you don't want people to throw stones at it"
The same can be applied to singing in public, If you don't want other people's opinions and ideas, stay at home and sing to your rubber duck in the bath.
Jim Carroll'

Brilliant! - as long as this man comes up with gems like this . keep the thread open!

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 06:21 AM

Damn, it's got sensible again. And there was me just about to treat you all to what in Donegal (according to Packie anyway) they used to call the sheep version of a winnet. (See what happens when ya leave us to ourselves?)

Since I'm here: What was the song and its offending verse?

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: GUEST,Geordie boy
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 06:34 AM

A winnet in Northumberland is one of the sheep droppings that cling to the fleece around the orifice. Basically, a turd!

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 06:44 AM

In Donegal it is (or was in Packie's day, 1920s-30s... and don't ask me how you spell it) a klubbeen. Hey, maybe all the patronising blowhards should start their own folk klubbeen.

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: GUEST,Sol
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 08:04 AM

I recall one folk group announcing that they were going to sing an Irish song called "Dirty Old Town". After their spot I said to one of the group that the song was about Salford and who the composer was. I wasn't trying to be a smart ass, just being helpful. I can't recall if he was grateful for the info or not.

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: Hrothgar
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 08:39 AM

Possibly the person, instead of saying "You missed a verse" should have said "I know another verse for that".

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 08:50 AM

I wonder if theres ever been a band called The Klubbeens....or the Winnets.

The Klubbeen Family of Connemara, the Winnets of the Western Isles...

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 09:26 AM

ya gotta be innit to winnet...


There was a recent mildly amusing minor celebrities go farming reality TV contest...

One challenge was clipping round a sheeps arse...

Something I'd never do.. but then, I don't need to desperately revive a failing show biz career...

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: John P
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 10:46 AM

Possibly the person, instead of saying "You missed a verse" should have said "I know another verse for that".

Yes, exactly. Start a conversation about a subject of mutual interest. Don't assume the person you're talking to is ignorant.

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 10:49 AM

Gives me an idea for a TV Show

Pro Celebrity Snipping Round a Sheep's Arse On Ice!

sounds like winner to me...

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 11:27 AM

I've encountered that person and his clones many times. Always a him, never yet a her. They very much were not just trying to be helpful.

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 11:55 AM

Trimming dirty sheep arses sounds like the kind of rural culture tradition
that could become a popular workshop activity at urban folk clubs...???

.. and there's plenty of scope for know-all experts to who've read all the right books on the history of arse trimming
to helpfully enlighten anyone who needs to be educated...

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: Jos
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 12:04 PM

I think when they did it on "The Archers" it was called dagging and it happened before the sheep were sheared. (They didn't do it on ice, though.)

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 12:51 PM

you need a set of daggers to sort the winnets but don't carry them in Tottenham

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: Stringsinger
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 01:39 PM

Just because it's folk doesn't mean that it's well written or particularly interesting.
Sometimes long winded trad ballads become redundant. A little editing doesn't hurt anything and may bring the true meaning of the song more into focus.

As for one-upmanship about folk knowledge, it's a ridiculous pastime. There is nothing that is scientifically useful about folk music knowledge and that it doesn't always enhance the enjoyment of a good song.

Still, I agree that commentary that is ostensibly critical can be very useful.

I would like to join the chorus of those who want to hear the damned offensive verse.
I, among others, would like to judge its merits myself.

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 01:46 PM

Yeah, we’re gonna get kicked downstairs into the BS (or BW, as it should be re-named) section if we don’t get an actual bit of music into this thread pretty soon!

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 02:03 PM

Re the above words of wisdom from Stringsinger:

"As for one-upmanship about folk knowledge, it's a ridiculous pastime. There is nothing that is scientifically useful about folk music knowledge and that it doesn't always enhance the enjoyment of a good song."

Certainly one of the most succinct postings to appear on Mudcat regarding self acclaimed experts.

And from someone who does know.

Well said sir.

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 02:04 PM

"Well said sir."
Amen to that
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 02:47 PM

'Yeah, we’re gonna get kicked downstairs into the BS (or BW, as it should be re-named) section if we don’t get an actual bit of music into this thread pretty soon!'

I could write a song called Trimming Dirty Sheeps Arses, if that would help....

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 02:53 PM

Hmmm, think wot you could do with Searching For Lambs.

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 05:15 PM

Searching for lambs to clean their bum
Passes the time, and its harmless fun

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 06:27 PM

I was mentioned this to my mrs who's a valley/hillside girl from South Wales...
She can't speak Welsh, so got frustrated that she doesn't know her people's word for winnets..

Anyway, we discussed the gist of a Welsh language folk song concerning a remote neglected field of sheep
where, as you'd expect, they have the dirtiest of arses.
All but one, the prettiest, who's rear end is immaculate.
Clean shaven where it matters, neatly trimmed in the surrounding area,
and immmaculately spotlessly clean..
The Welsh title translates as "The Farmer's Favourite"...

So now all she's got to do is persuade her Eisteddfod prize winning niece to write it...
They're having lunch in Cardiff tomorrow...

Right then self appointed folk experts,
do your best to dictate how we should sing a song that doesn't even exist...!!!

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Mar 19 - 09:41 PM

I'd go for Star of the County Down..

By a mountain steep
Some Welsh Mountain Sheep
Were farmed by a local villain
Who did bestial deeds
With the best of breeds
Whom he's given a trim Brazilian.

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 03:58 AM

On your next album, Al? :-)

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: GUEST,Geordie boy
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 04:49 AM

Excellent, Big Al! Now there's one verse I WOULD sing!

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: GUEST,Modette
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 05:10 AM

Shouldn't it be called 'The Baa of the County Down'?

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 05:14 AM

Ewe should know
Jim

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 06:22 AM

You could get lock tup for jokes like that.

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 06:25 AM

Baaaaa humbug, shear nonsense
Jim

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 06:34 AM

Wool you guyz give us a break?!

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 06:35 AM

No need to ram it home.

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 06:45 AM

"Wool you guyz give us a break?!"
For one fleecing moment I thought we had a conversation going
Jim

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 06:59 AM

@On your next album, Al? '

as if I would stoop to using crude racial stereotypes....

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 07:25 AM

Al :-D Big grin.

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 12:31 PM

Al proves himself yet again - taking up an idle daft idea and magically turning it into comedy gold reality...

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 12:39 PM

btw.. the genuine folk experts were the anonymous ordinary men & women who concocted the bloody songs in the first place...

not the self important smug tossers who read about them centuries later in books
written by collectors and academics with more of a real right to be considered authorities on the subject...

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: Andy7
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 05:39 PM

The sheep might not appreciate having songs written about their bottoms.

I know I wouldn't.

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 05:47 PM

I would!

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 07:59 PM

I shouldn't entertain any hopes in that direction, Dave.

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 04:29 AM

You could always set it in Ramsbottom...

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: Mr Red
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 05:01 AM

how we should sing a song that doesn't even exist...!!!

silently?

And that's the bottom line. Dag nammit!

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: Mr Red
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 05:02 AM

the missing verse? Was that a verse shun?




I'll get my fleece jacket..............

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 07:11 AM

I pass the M66 turnoff for Ramsbottom at least once a week, Bonnie. Even after all these years I still giggle when I think that the bit higher up the valley could have been called Upper Ramsbottom :-D

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: CupOfTea
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 11:09 PM

I'm fascinated by the variants of old songs, and when someone sings a different version than the one with which I am most familiar, I want to know where they got it from. I know I have to be careful in how I phrase the question, lest someone take it as criticism. I think I do some multiple verse ballads in a sort of "anthology editor" version, drawing from many sources, rather than singing "so and so's version." That got me stopped dead the first time I sang a ballad in public by a creep shouting me down with "That's not how Joan Baez sings it!" In the long run, that didn't change the way I sang it. Not so easy to ignore was a comment about singing the Pentangle melody/ refrain version of "Cruel Sister" from a serious ballad scholar and respected friend about the tune/refrain being lifted from "Devil's Questions" and refrain being a charm against witches/devil. Can't sing it anymore, havent found another version I want to learn, spoiled it entirely.

While unrequested criticism is usually impolite and intrusive, I have lately been wondering about calling out self-described "experts" when they blather something you know to be totally factually incorrect about source, author, etc. Sometimes it's hard to keep yer mouth shut after - what comes to mind are the oft - repeated introduction of "Ashokan Farewell" as "traditional tune from the American Civil War" or that "traditional Irish song" written by Shel Silverstein or Bill Staines.

The herd of Sheep-themed doggerel and comments above got me guffawing aloud at something on Mudcat for the first time in...a long time. Thanks!

Joanne in Cleveland, trying to surpress my pedantic urges

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 01:32 AM

I think the thing is Joanne, you have to ask yourself some questions...if I correct this person

will the world be a better place?

will I feel better?

do I care that they are wandering round talking crap?

will it be appreciated?

do we like each other enough for me to bother that my friend is making a fool of himself?

sometimes its a tough call. if you really like someone who has exposed their ignorance in front of a very well informed audience.

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: John P
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 09:41 AM

"a comment about singing the Pentangle melody/ refrain version of "Cruel Sister" from a serious ballad scholar and respected friend about the tune/refrain being lifted from "Devil's Questions" and refrain being a charm against witches/devil. "

Hm, I think my response to that would have been, "Wow, how cool! It's so fun to learn about the various roots of songs and how the details can get mixed up over time."

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: GUEST,Geordie boy
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 10:18 AM

Dave the Gnome, we play a tune called "Upper Badger's Bottom"...
And you will know that quite near to you exists a village called Slack Bottom.
Tee hee :)

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: GUEST,patriot
Date: 12 Mar 19 - 10:59 AM

south of Canterbury, there is a farm/hamlet called Lynsore Bottom- Lyn said to me it wasn't true & to put the Sudocrene away....

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 11:03 AM

Whilst sat pondering in the throne room, it occured to me
that the singer, now sadly departed, who'd have been the ideal performer
of songs about sheep's dirty arses
was Tammy Wynette...

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Mar 19 - 11:13 AM

Yew should be ashamed of yourself - the shear impertinence
Flock crying out loud
Jim

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: GUEST,paperback
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 04:11 AM

I've heard 'em called 'Klingons' here in the States but that was only for the cool kids who had tvs.

Poor folk called 'em 'dingleberries'

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 04:34 AM

Brilliant, Paperback! Great song.

But I'm embarrassed on behalf of my younger self - around where I grew up, we just used it as shorthand for being stupid/silly. We called each other dingleberries all the time. Now I know what the "berry" is... eww-wwww-ww...

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 04:42 AM

WELL IF PEOPLE USED BIDETS AND WASHED THEIR BUMS , THERE WOULDNT BE ANY ,MUCH PAPER WOULD BE SAVED ANBD TOLIET ROLL MAKERS WOULD GO OUT OF BUSINESS,MFEWER TRESS CUT DOWN TOO

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 04:45 AM

But bidets use up water, and the water's running dry in a lot of places.

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 05:10 AM

Don't use toilet paper or bidets. Wait a while and use a hammer and chisel.

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 05:15 AM

Its okay in theory. But imagine stopping on the M5 at the motorstop. The lav's full of people washing their bums in the hand basins.

You wouldn't fancy a big mac after that.
no, the rainforest has to go.

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 05:28 AM

How did we get here from "folk expert" btw?

Is it just someone talking shit?

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 05:39 AM

We're having a contest to see who can get us kicked down into the Bull Winnet section first.

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 07:30 AM

Bonnie :-D

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 12:02 PM

Dangleberries in Cumbria.
Kiffies round Macclesfield.
Roger

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 12:53 PM

When I was a kid in Scrumpyshire, we called them clinkers...
But there were a lot of war evacuated Brummie families in town,
including my mum..

So maybe it's just as likely a word they brought down with 'em...

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: GUEST,paperback
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 01:36 PM

Bonnie Shaljean-"around where I grew up, we just used it as shorthand for being stupid/silly. We called each other dingleberries all the time."

I've heard 'em used in that context too. Perhaps it's akin to 'hayseed' in the sense it's a derogatory remark aimed at rube-ish behavior.

I knew a boy in school who was endlessly teased he smelt of cows. Poor Leon, he had to milk every morning and from the looks of his house I'd say there weren't any shower.

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 02:50 PM

Like our hallowed traditional folk process..

this thread has gradually been transformed over time
by the contributions of many ordinary folks,

from "Folk expert" to "Dirty Arse expert"...

Let's just hope they are not as self opinionated and overbearing.....

"No..no..no.. that's not the right way to let it dry up and cling to hairs,
do it like this;
as outlined on page 1954 of the "History of Traditional British Arse Uncleanliness"...

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: GUEST,Modette
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 03:25 PM

I'm not having my 'tress' cut down, even in capital letters.

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 04:41 PM

sandman - bidets...???

You could be a lot more eco friendly by employing 3rd world techniques to save the planet from the 1st world...

Scrape your bum clean with the fingers of one hand, and prepare food with the other...

Just remember which...

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: Jos
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 04:46 PM

Or you could use a dock leaf.

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 04:59 PM

folks - sorry if I'm starting to act too much like a know it all arse wiping expert...

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 08:30 AM

We always to rub on dock leafs if we were stung by nettles. Not necessarily on the bum.

I wonder if theres any justification for that folk remedy.
It seemed to work at the time.

Dingleberries...great name for a folk group.

Or a blues song

Man! I got those dinglberry blues!
Hot dog!! they're hanging down to my shoes!
Feeling awful seedy,
I'm nowhere near a bidet
I guess we shoulda stayed in the EU

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 08:34 AM

Here I am writing bloody folksongs about ethnic uses of language - and they put me in the BS section!

What is WRONG with these people?

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: keberoxu
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 08:59 AM

I wondered what had changed.

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: Jos
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 09:58 AM

And using dock leaves is an old English tradition, isn't it? So not BS.
I always used to rub dock leaves on nettle stings. It never worked. I even searched out the young leaves just emerging and full of juice, but it still didn't work. Maybe the only benefit comes from the rubbing (= massaging).
An old woman once told us that the best treatment for chilblains was wall pennywort (NOT pronounced 'worrt'. The word 'wort' is pronounced like work, and word, and worth).
It did help with the chilblains, but again, it was probably more to do with the rubbing than with the plant itself.

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 10:33 AM

Out of all the post apocalyptic end of civilization movies I have ever seen
only one has dealt with the mundane realities of continued existence;
without mains water or electricity supply...
Two surviving women holed up in a forest house hiding from marauding strangers,
kept a bucket of stream water and a large pile of broad green leaves by the side of the toilet...

If I remember, that film was writen and directed by a woman...

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 10:42 AM

If we can mount a campaign to get this thread back upstairs where it seriously belongs..


Folk songs created and passed down the generations by survialists
in the centuries following the apocalypse,
and reversion to dark ages primitive technology...

..might be an interesting concept to consider...

It'd be a test of the resilience of our old trad melodies....

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 11:00 AM

Expertise has a relative and tenuous status. Sometimes an amateur will supersede a PhD Expert. When attitudes are hateful or tinged with sins of the past I will needle the expert. Some know who I have deservedly needled but at this late date, change of the authoritarian mudcat villain or the International ass hole is not likely. Getting in the last word is pointless and ultimately is merely decided by a blind mortality.

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 11:26 AM

my point of view entirely Donuel.
In truth I'm fed up with the amount of time and reasonable behaviour I've wasted already.
At some point you have to walk away. Respect is a two way street.

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: Mrrzy
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 11:54 AM

Um, bidets are for the front, not the butt. Jus' sayin'...

I sing all the verses of Star of the County Down *that I know*... Now I shall have to go see if I miss any.

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 12:04 PM

Well if you want to get academic about it, bidets are not actually illegal in England.

But as Private Godfrey says in Dad's Army. We don't like that sort of thing.

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 04:53 AM

You can use bidets for whatever you want. I used ours to wash my feet more than once.

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 06:39 AM

They help with the taste of cunnilingus. No metallic tastes.

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 07:28 AM

bidet
/'bi?de?/
noun
plural noun: bidets

    a low oval basin used for washing one's genital and anal arehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCAiJO-83-E

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 07:32 AM

but was the accompanying music folk music?it sounded a bit like the kinks?bidets are probably popular in france because soixante neuf is as i understand a popular sexual pastime in france it requires clean arses

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 07:33 AM

the above would require a doctorate from a folk expert or arseholeinspector

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 04:08 PM

"Don't use toilet paper or bidets. Wait a while and use a hammer and chisel."

And what's so wrong with a grassy slope, pray tell? There's a good one just over the top from Achmelvich beach...

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: keberoxu
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 04:44 PM

Folk, schmolk. Why has no-one mentioned

"I shit on your nose and
it will run down your chin."

-- November 5, 1777

He would probably chime right in on this thread, were it possible.

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: keberoxu
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 01:41 PM

What?

Mentioning Amadeus shut down the thread?

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 07:09 AM

Mozart said that?

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 07:44 AM

I can easily believe it. He could be quite scatological.

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 09:08 AM

My old mum get's through an average day of dementia and incontinence
with a healthy robust sense of arse and scat humour...

Though she's got to be careful she don't laugh too hard...


we're all [most of us...???] only human after all....

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 05:19 PM

its waiting for us all.

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 03:59 AM

hopefully it its like waiting for godot.
what do you call a bidet advertised on irish radio and tv, that went into a barfor a second bridgette bardot

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: Neil D
Date: 23 Mar 19 - 01:29 AM

Q. How is the Starship Enterprise like Scot Tissue?

A. It circles Uranus looking for Klingons.

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 23 Mar 19 - 05:04 AM

Maybe they should rename it Scat Tissue.