Folk expert

Subject: Folk expert
From: GUEST,Geordie boy
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 09:13 AM

Sang a song recently in a folk club. Later on one of the other participants came over to me, ostensibly to congratulate me on my performance but in fact to show off his vast knowledge of folk music by starting to tell me I'd missed out a verse. I sussed him straight away and pre-empted him by quoting the verse and saying I won't sing it because it's crap.
The folk police are everywhere....

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: GUEST,Wm
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 10:03 AM

Boy, you sure showed him.

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: GUEST,kenny
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 10:27 AM

Why does he become "the folk police" ? Maybe he was just trying to help, but I get the feeling that that would never have occurred to you.

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 10:35 AM

What was the song and offending verse?

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: John P
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 10:37 AM

It's easy to tell the difference between someone trying to help and someone who thinks they know the one true way and wants to make sure you are aware of how you are doing it wrong. It's easy to tell the difference even if they are acting like they just want to help. I think part of the reason it rankles is the blind assumption that you don't know what you are doing or why. I also find it extremely irritating to be criticized in the middle of a performance. I have to work extra hard to not have it be a mood killer. Not the place or the time for that.

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 10:39 AM

"Maybe he was just trying to help,"
Apparently that doesn't occur to some people
The term itself oozes of 'folk police'
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 11:54 AM

Missed a verse? Just a different version surely.

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 12:04 PM

Folk Experts should dress and talk like Blakey out of on the Buses...

Well.. that's how I'll imagine them...

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 12:16 PM

Any performer who considers him/herself above taking advice needs to stay at home and sing to the rubber duck in the bath
If you sing in public any audience worth its salt is going to discuss your singing
I'd rather know what they are saying than have it happen out of my hearing
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 12:26 PM

Jim - conversely.. no matter how well intentioned, or benignly expressed;
offering friendly helpful advice can carry risks of a hostile reception from over-sensitive and defensive folks with fragile egos...

I'd keep me gob shut....

However, if someone asks me for my opinion they'll get it as constuctively as possible without sugar coating...

But even then, even good old mates can still get the hump and take it too personally...

no win situation...???

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 12:37 PM

Surely the crux of this problem, was what song ..and what verse.
Burns songs for example should never be butchered.
Perhaps the OP found the verse offensive? If that was the case, would it not have been better to avoid the song altogether?

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: Acorn4
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 01:13 PM

It normally starts:-

"I think you might find that....!

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 01:34 PM

"offering friendly helpful advice can carry risks of a hostile reception from over-sensitive and defensive folks with fragile egos..."
Perhaps people with such problems should think twice before appearing before an audience until they have conquered such an affliction - doing so is as necessary as learning to sing in tune
Of course, the opposite should be the case, any advice given should be delivered with a degree of sensitivity
Having worked in a group that was based on mutual friendly advice, I really did learn how much it helped to conquer so many problems
People you describe are just as likely to work themselves into a cold sweat if nobody comments on their singing - so what do you do, keep good advice to yourself ?
From personal experience, once you come to terms that everything you do is not going to be good, once you get used to the idea that you can learn from others and learn to accept advice, you will never be nervous in front of an audience again
Of all the problems I have as a singer, nervousness (the cause of many singing flaws) has never been one of them for over half century
Jim

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: meself
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 01:39 PM

The crux of the problem for me is that I don't know the OP, I don't know what the song is, I don't know what the 'crap' verse is, I don't know who the 'folk expert' is, I don't know who the 'folk police' are (they're always undercover), and I'm wasting my time responding when I should be working. Okay, gotta go.

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 02:05 PM

Saying "I won't sing it because it's crap" may not have brought out the best in whoever the original poster was talking to, either. If the verse is from the oral-tradition (and even if it isn't), an awful lot of people through the ages have thought it worthy of learning and singing. Otherwise it wouldn't have been passed on and survived.

Of course times change, and what were acceptable speech patterns or attitudes in bygone eras are often - rightly - not so now. But stating that something is "crap", as though that's a hard fact and not simply personal opinion, throws the matter wide open to debate. IF we knew what we were debating.

The other guy may indeed have been a pompous pain in the ass, who knows? But he could just have been irked at such a blanket condemnation. Is the verse "crap" on grounds of political correctness? Clumsy wording by literary standards past or present? Reflecting some sentiment or other that the listener finds annoying (e.g. praising a king or queen, if you're a staunch republican)? Or because a contemporary mindset has been imposed on a piece of historical culture and its society?

Like everybody else, I would really like to know what the song and verse are.

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: Iains
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 02:34 PM

This is rather like arguing over punctuation when the text is unseen!

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: Mr Red
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 02:37 PM

If you sing in public any audience worth its salt is going to discuss your singing

A friend stopped singing in clubs because he wanted his audience feel his angst. And they didn't necessarily. He was a good guitarist. But I took from the situation that everyone performs for their own reasons. And the audience take from it in their own way. Being told something can be "helpful", but sometimes it is to make themselves feel good, the inference that it reduces you is your inference, and is not automatically so.

I well remember telling someone about "Sprachan Light", quoting as near as I could from Ali Bain. The guy was not having any of it, I could hear the tone "I play it, I am the expert". FWIW even Tommy Anderson (says Ali Bain) was not sure himself if it was about the death of his wife or the cottage lights missing when young men drifted away from Island life.

Even truer of other people singing your songs. You have to let it go, they are not you. Don't have your intonation and may have more skills! But the first time it happens, it is strange.

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 02:43 PM

Interesting, Mr Red. I'd heard that the title of that gorgeous air was Da Slocket/Slockit Light, and that it referred to the extinguishing of a lamp or the dimming of light, meaning loss and deprivation. Or so an English fiddler told me. Wonderful tune, that one.

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: GUEST,Kenny B(inactive)
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 02:50 PM

I would like to ask … How many people sing all the verses of the "Star of the County Down" or the "Mountains of Mourne" or "Courtin in the Kitchen" "Carrickfergus" to name a few …. ive had folks say in a friendly fashion that they didn't know the songs had so many verses compared with the recorded versions.

It depends on how the OP was approached and taken to task? over a missed? verse.
Many folks have a bad manner when either speaking or writing that gets folks back up.

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: meself
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 02:57 PM

So far, the first response has been the best - and I quote: "Boy, you sure showed him!"

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: Andy7
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 03:26 PM

Someone once told me they enjoyed my second song.

I immediately thought, "So, what was wrong with my first song?"

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: Mr Red
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 03:51 PM

yea yea Da Slockit Light - I did the search and Google failed! If you know the answer so does Google. But then what good is Google then? I am increasing dependent on search (not Goggle actually) engines because, memory and Anno Domini are increasingly at odds.

Try listening to a Scottish Fiddler - one who was taught by the composer himself.

I have no reason to doubt Ali Bain, he was in awe of the man.

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 03:54 PM

Was it a Geordie song Geordie Boy?

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 03:55 PM

From: Bonnie Shaljean - PM
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 02:43 PM

Interesting, Mr Red. I'd heard that the title of that gorgeous air was Da Slocket/Slockit Light, and that it referred to the extinguishing of a lamp or the dimming of light, meaning loss and deprivation. Or so an English fiddler told me. Wonderful tune, that one."
I had tom andersons book and the notes on the tune,are along the lines of the lights being dimmed or going out in the fishing village.
Recently, I sang Bogies Bonny Belle to my knowledge there are two diferring endings, i was singing this song in an informal trad tune session but had been asked to sing a song, so i sang the version which ends so farewll huntly side and bogies bony belle, not twas i that took the maidenhead of bogies bony belle, a person i regularly do gigs with questiobned why i sang that version saying they had always heard[ the stealing maidenhead version, now it was not the time and place to discuss all that so i replied, yes i know of both versions but i think the maidenhead stealing version is crap,this produced a feisty outburst,which was embarrasing for everyone , so i suggested a that we play some more tunes.
now perhaps, i should have not said i thought it was crap, but i was giving my honest opinion, now knowing the person concerned well , i was go the impression they were insinuating that i had altered the song to be politically correct, frankly i did not care which was the original version i chose a version because i prefered the ending.
also many years previously when i was guest at a folk club in northwich some body had come up to me in the break and tried to tell me i should be singing the stealing maidenhead version. a bizarre deja vu which explains why i said the stealing maidenhead version was crap

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 04:03 PM

Tom Andersons notes in his book were definetely along the lines of walking out one evening looking out to sea and noticing how few lights there were and the change inspired him to write the sad air

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: GUEST,Cj
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 05:01 PM

I'm a folk expert, if anyone has any questions?

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: meself
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 06:05 PM

Who stole the maidenhead, then, if you're such an expert? And, in such circumstances, which version is politically correct?

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: GUEST,Cj
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 06:20 PM

It was a man called David, who actually lived in Maidenhead at the time. The politically correct version is the one without the word 'blabberwhack', which is now an inexcusable term of phrase.

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: meself
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 06:25 PM

Ahhh! That explains it! Well, I'd like to take this opportunity to thank - ??? - Who was that masked personage?

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Mar 19 - 10:04 PM

Well if I've offended anyone discussing their music. I apologise.
I ask for multiple offences at times and dates unknown to be taken into consideration.

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: Andy7
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 03:25 AM

Someone once said to me, "You know you can't sing, don't you?"

Is that what they call constructive criticism?

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 03:46 AM

Andy, no it is not.Constructive ,would be more, try and get a note to start your song so you can pitch more where your voice lies, or you sang that shanty well you r voice is suitedto that kind of song. the other is just somebody passing on their bad mood

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 05:49 AM

Fiddler supreme, Kevin Burke, used to tell the story of being given a tune by an old fiddler in Sligo - every time he met the old man he would be asked to play it
After a while Kevin asked, "Why do you always request the tune you taught me - it's yours already?"
The old man replies "I want you to play it until you get the ****** thing right"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: John P
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 10:43 AM

We're not talking here about audiences discussing the music, which of course I love to do. We're not talking about asking about the interpretation of the song and making friendly comments, which is often fun and educational.

Here's an example of folk police behavior that was neither: we finished the first set with a Bulgarian tune played on the hurdy-gurdy and guitar. During the break, we were sitting on the edge of the stage talking with interested audience members about the music and the instruments when a loud voice interrupted to say, "I hope you don't tell people you play Baltic music, because that's not how they do it!". It was nasty heckling, and was rude to the audience members who were having the nice experience of hearing new music and new instruments. It put a dark cloud over the entire conversation that was going on, which made it completely inappropriate during an evening of folk music.

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 11:25 AM

You can't make a rule to stop people being unpleasant, because human beings are endlessly inventive at finding new ways to be unpleasant.

Also - some people are just socially inept and can't help acting and talking like a twat.

I'm not sure what you can do if you have someone or a group of folks who behave like this. It does happen. I suppose it wouldn't do for us all to be the same.

I suppose that's why they have security at night clubs to chuck out nasty sods. Perhaps your folk club isn't in a nice enough area. Not necessarily a posh area. Just one with a majority of nice people.

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: meself
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 01:32 PM

"I suppose it wouldn't do for us all to be the same."

As an uncle of mine used to say: "They can't all be like us!"

If the worse thing anyone said to me after or during a performance was that I'd left out a verse or I was playing it 'wrong', I suppose I would have a few less grey hairs, and a few less wrinkles - in other words, I'd look a little more like that young pretty-boy in my publicity shots ... !

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: Ged Fox
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 01:34 PM

"Someone once said to me, "You know you can't sing, don't you?"
Is that what they call constructive criticism? "

No, it means you should have been in the music room, not the library.

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: GUEST,Geordie boy
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 02:43 PM

John P - my experience was similar. It was not done in a friendly, helpful way. I'm old enough to know a self-important eejit when I meet one.
If you like what I do, say so. If not, say nowt. Don't presume to educate me.

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 04:24 PM

So what's wrong with "education"?

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: John P
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 05:44 PM

Education with quotation marks around it is the opposite of education, and I'm pretty sure that was what Geordie boy meant. "Education" is not appreciated when it is misguided, unasked for, uncalled for, inaccurate, and rudely delivered in an inappropriate setting.

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 06:11 PM

You have the undoubted right to remain ignorant.

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: GUEST,Geordie boy
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 06:14 PM

John P - love ya, baby!

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: John P
Date: 06 Mar 19 - 11:32 PM

Ah, anonymous guest troll, proving your own words, I see. Just think of all the things you could have learned if you were more interested in educating yourself than in being rude on the internet. Too late!

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 01:13 AM

Were we ever told what song it was, and what verse was left out? Without that information, this thread is totally useless.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: GUEST,Geordie boy
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 06:33 AM

With due respect, you miss the point, Joe

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: fat B****rd
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 08:43 AM

I didn't know Bulgaria was on the Baltic. Pedant fB

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 10:15 AM

I'm missing your point too I think Geordie boy.
Could you expand on your thoughts a bit?

Maybe I'm reading this wrong but to me it sounds like
A bloke came up to me and wanted to show off and put me down.
I showed off and put HIM down.
I won.

Did everyone go home a little upset?
:(
R
We don't need rude Folk Police but do we need a brigade of Folk Peace Keepers?

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: GUEST,Modette
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 10:23 AM

Angels. Dancing. Head of a pin. Discuss.

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 10:47 AM

"A bloke came up to me and wanted to show off and put me down.
I showed off and put HIM down.
I won."

So fair do's, Geordie Boy got his self-defense in first...

.. at least it wasn't a headbutt.....

Subject: RE: Folk expert
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Mar 19 - 11:24 AM

point of interest Geordie boy - thread drift. I used to work with this Geordie who called everyone a winnet. You're a daft winnet, he would say.
He would never tell anyone what a winnet was, but one night he got pissed and explained to me that a winnet was a turd, stuck up your bum. And winnet come out.

Is this a well known Geordie word?