BS: Thoughts on US college entrance scandal?

Subject: BS: Thoughts on US college entrance scandal?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 12:50 PM

Interested in the British take, if there are any.

I think everybody *rejected* from those schools in those years is eligible for some compensation, for starters.

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts on US college entrance scandal?
From: Mossback
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 01:06 PM

Not the British take, but its affirmative action for the rich. But why the surprise and outrage? Rich bastards have been buying their way thru life for themselves and their spawn from time immemorial, all the while bitching and moaning about Taxes & thus de-funding the state university system. Screw the middle & working classes.

There's making amerikkka great, for ya.

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts on US college entrance scandal?
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 01:15 PM

I'd like to think that when the movie of this episode comes out that William H Macy and Felicity Huffman will be able to play themselves during work release. Then their salaries can go towards a scholarship program for the victims.

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts on US college entrance scandal?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 02:52 PM

Yeah, why is she in so much more trouble than he is?

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts on US college entrance scandal?
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 08:14 PM

Capitalism at its best.

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts on US college entrance scandal?
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 10:02 PM

I understand the Wharton School has, in the past, been bought.

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts on US college entrance scandal?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Mar 19 - 11:27 PM

This story has been plastered all over the pages of the Sacramento Bee newspaper yesterday and today. One article was titled Who Is William Rick Singer?, the man who arranged all the fraudulent college admissions. I wondered if it was THAT Rick Singer, but thought that it couldn't be. But it was. He was married to my niece, and I had contact with him many times, and he was very generous to our family. My son drives a fancy but elderly Infiniti, and Rick always drove Infinitis. I'm sure my son got his car from Rick, a nice guy who is now a notorious criminal.

At the time I knew him, Rick spent his time placing low-income athletes on college athletic teams, and Rick's work seemed to be very altruistic. Rick did hobnob quite a bit with the Rich and Famous, but that seemed to be part of his job, to be helping underprivileged kids get into college on scholarship. And yeah, he did seem to be a bit of a wheeler-dealer, but his intentions were good.

I got divorced from Rick's part of the family in 1992, and I don't know if I saw him after that. But he did seem to be an idealistic sort of guy who wanted to help poor kids.

I wonder what changed. Whatever he did, and for whatever reason, I still wish him well.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts on US college entrance scandal?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 12:03 AM

The people who facilitated the acceptance of non-athletic students into a few places set aside for athletic exceptions were the coaches, working with facilitators who knew about those openings. Those coaches and the facilitators got the bribes. Unless athletes in tennis, sailing, etc., (those obscure university sports) were crowded out because rich kids sneaked in that side door, no one else should be eligible for compensation. Why would they be?

Part of the problem is how the status schools attract this kind of abuse through their various athletics programs - rich people should realize their children can get excellent educations at other public institutions (though UCLA is a public facility and it was one named). But the big sports schools (with rich alumni) were the most vulnerable. On NPR (National Public Radio) today they talked about it - how those rich kids did displace poor kids who might have gotten a full ride at a private university.

Another problem may be that students who got in the usual way, based on the application process, may feel that their degrees are tarnished. There are a couple of instances of that in our family, good students at big-name schools that are now in the news because of a scandal. Everyone loses. It's the money changing hands that makes it a crime.

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts on US college entrance scandal?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 12:13 AM

Yeah, and it was my niece's husband who was at the center of it. He started out to help poor kids, and he did. I wonder how that changed into becoming a servant of the children of the wealthy.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts on US college entrance scandal?
From: Mossback
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 10:48 AM

Simple. Follow the money.

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts on US college entrance scandal?
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 11:21 AM

Quite a few years ago my daughter was interested in applying to one of the Ivy League Universities for her Masters as alternatives to the top UK ones. The application form we got back was something like 40 pages long, where the first 35 were about me and didn't get onto her until the final few pages.

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts on US college entrance scandal?
From: meself
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 11:29 AM

But there's nothing wrong with preference being given to those who are good at chasing and kicking balls ... ?

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts on US college entrance scandal?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 12:22 PM

There are already lawsuits, from people who got in and feel cheapened and from people who didn't get in. I hope they all clean up. What does your niece think, Joe?

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts on US college entrance scandal?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 01:02 PM

KERA-FM "Think" The College Admissions Scandal This is an hour-long program that discussed the topic. This is where I picked up some interesting information about the types of schools involved, etc.

College Admissions Scandal Is Just The Latest For University Of Southern California

Students At UCLA Weigh In On College Admissions Scandal With 'Daily Bruin' Editorial

I think that since the goal was to get these kids into elite universities at any cost, they probably didn't get scholarships or a full ride, just entrance into the university. One would expect that the schools that had systems for their mostly small teams of elite sports (as the radio program in the top link mentioned, who but primarily rich applicants could typically afford to be elite tennis, sailing, equestrian, etc. athletes?)

The parents and facilitators hurt themselves, and what they did is going to damage the larger reputations of those schools. It may tarnish the diplomas of graduates who were involved in sports programs (even though the rich kids admitted weren't athletes). Things will change regarding admissions (though people will probably find ways around the new tougher policies).

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts on US college entrance scandal?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 02:48 PM

Hi, Mrr - don't know yet what my niece thinks. We haven't heard from that part of the family. That part of family always lived a rather wealthy lifestyle, and we felt a bit out of place - although they were nice to us. Back in about 1990, my son really wanted to play basketball, and Rick took us to basketball games and showed us the life of NCAA basketball. I felt more than a little overwhelmed. At the time, Rick was placing mostly low-income kids into basketball scholarships, but he spent a lot of time hobnobbing with wealthy donors - and he had a fancy car and drove it faster than I would dare.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts on US college entrance scandal?
From: Mossback
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 03:58 PM

Science explains why rich parents are more likely to be unethical

Some might ask why did these parents fail to consider the moral implications of their actions?

When it comes to the wealthy and privileged, a sense of entitlement, or a belief that one is deserving of privileges over others, can play an important role in unethical conduct.

Privileged individuals are also less likely to follow rules and instructions given they believe the rules are unjust. Because they feel deserving of more than their fair share, they are willing to violate norms of appropriate and socially agreed upon conduct.

Wealthy individuals who are considered as “upper class” based on their income have been found to lie, steal and cheat more to get what they desire. T

https://www.alternet.org/2019/03/science-explains-wh-rich-parents-are-more-likely-to-be-unethical/

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts on US college entrance scandal?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 04:51 PM

I suppose I'll never get to know how all this came about. I'm guessing that in the process of Rick placing inner-city kids on college basketball teams, some rich guy asked him for a favor. And one favor led to another, and then eventually the favors were unethical than then downright illegal. I think that when most of us get into trouble, we start out thinking that we're doing good.

My niece has been divorced from Rick for many years, and I got divorced from my niece's family in 1993. So, there's been a long gap of separation. But when I knew him, Rick was a good guy doing good things.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts on US college entrance scandal?
From: ChanteyLass
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 05:38 PM

Maybe he'll write a book telling about how and why he changed.

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts on US college entrance scandal?
From: Mossback
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 06:43 PM

Interesting comment.

A book he can sell to make more money? To pay legal fees? Or to pay more bribes?

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts on US college entrance scandal?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 16 Mar 19 - 08:27 PM

They totally got scholarships, including athletic ones in sports they didn't play.

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts on US college entrance scandal?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 02:44 AM

I suppose it was about 1990 when my son and I spent a lot of time with Rick. He was an assistant basketball coach at Sacramento State University, and he spent a lot of his time recruiting kids for Sac State - don't know if he was recruiting for other universities at the time. At the time, he was totally devoted to helping inner city kids find success through sports, and he didn't seem to have anything to do with wealthy kids.
I wonder what changed.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts on US college entrance scandal?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 11:29 AM

Mrrzy - that doesn't make sense - if these students didn't know they were being vetted by coaches for positions on their teams as a side-step into a university, they would have figured out something was up if they were then compelled to participate on those teams. But it seems the children of those charged were largely unaware of the machinations on their behalf.

Having a scholarship isn't just going to school free, there's a lot of paperwork involved and the student is aware of that status. My son went to his Tier 1 university on a full-ride - a tuition and fees scholarship offered because he was a National Merit Scholar, and the schools compete to get as many of those students as possible. That kind of scholarship lets them brag about their high number of National Merit Scholars, but the parents have to do paperwork every year and in theory the student is also doing paperwork each year (FAFSA, to start with.) There are tax returns sent that show the "value" of the educational benefits the child received. I imagine that high-income parents have some tax liability that poor parents don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts on US college entrance scandal?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 11:40 AM

No vetting, apparently, if admin says they're in. Yeah.

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts on US college entrance scandal?
From: leeneia
Date: 19 Mar 19 - 02:42 PM

Nobody in the media seems to wonder what the effect of this fraud is on the students. These kids are learning that their parents are dissatisfied with them as people. They are junior-college material, evidently, but their parents want an Ivy-League kid.

And what's going to happen to them when they are thrown in with students who are more intelligent and more sophisticated? Not just once in a while, but almost all the time? I can take a guess - alcohol, drugs, gravitating towards the other misfits, and even suicide come to mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts on US college entrance scandal?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Mar 19 - 03:26 PM

that's were online essay and dissertation services come in handy for those students who can afford it...

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts on US college entrance scandal?
From: leeneia
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 11:34 AM

There are classes, there are examinations, there are conversations around the dining room table. These kids are going to know they don't fit in.

Eighteen is too late to decide you want an honor student.

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts on US college entrance scandal?
From: keberoxu
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 08:41 PM

As I recall,
Macy and Huffmann got badly ripped off by Madoff.

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts on US college entrance scandal?
From: keberoxu
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 09:21 PM

No, I was wrong, my bad, I apologize.

I got Macy and Huffmann mixed up with
Bacon and Sedgwick.

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts on US college entrance scandal?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Nov 19 - 11:47 PM

Since the primary defendant in this scandal, Rick Singer, was married to my niece for 22 years, I continue to be interested in the outcome of this case. I thought Rick would be sentenced by now, but apparently sentencing is now scheduled for January, 2020.
https://www.justice.gov/usao-ma/investigations-college-admissions-and-testing-bribery-scheme
My niece filed for divorce in 2011, and apparently did not get caught up in this whole mess. The most comprehensive article I have seen on the scandal is in USA Today:

https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/news/nation/2019/06/19/college-admission-bribery-scandal-rick-singer-exploited-broken-system-loughlin-huffman/1133729001/

Gee, and I had thought Rick was a pretty nice guy. He certainly was good to my kids.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts on US college entrance scandal?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 21 Nov 19 - 11:53 AM

Is there any other country in the world where a total meathead can get a university place for biffing a ball around?

It doesn t matter at all who gets these sports scholarships. They shouldn't exist in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts on US college entrance scandal?
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Nov 19 - 12:37 PM

Sports is the opiate of the masses then, huh Jack. Well we have REAL OPIATES in America and most of them are Trump supporters. :^/

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts on US college entrance scandal?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Nov 19 - 12:56 PM

Yeah, Jack, I can't figure out how school athletics became so important in the U.S. I drove from California to Detroit this last summer, and I toured a number of historic college campuses along the way. I was amazed at the size and lavishness of many of the football stadiums. The biggest ones I saw this time were University of Iowa, University of Nebraska, and Notre Dame.

Of course, other countries have their fair share of meatheads in athletics - they just don't let 'em into college. Rick Singer, my niece's husband who was at the center of this whole scandal, was a real "jock." I don't think I've known another person whose life centered so completely around athletics. Nice guy, but he lived in a different world. Winning was the only thing that was important to him, maybe to the point where he could rationalize cheating to win.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts on US college entrance scandal?
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Nov 19 - 01:14 PM

I guess you missed the death of expertise and honor the first time around.
A brush with greatness or celebrity now passes for some kind of former ball player. I hear hollow cries of USA USA devoid of truth and without its credo, truth or history.

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts on US college entrance scandal?
From: leeneia
Date: 21 Nov 19 - 04:02 PM

Apparently nobody has wondered what effect these shenanighans have on the students. What's it like to be 17 and have your parents say, "You aren't good enough or smart enough to get into the schools we value, so we're going to falsify your record or bribe somebody." ?

And by the way, seventeen is too late to start taking an interest in a son or daughter's intellect and academic record.

Subject: RE: BS: Thoughts on US college entrance scandal?
From: Mossback
Date: 21 Nov 19 - 04:33 PM

I had thought Rick was a pretty nice guy. He certainly was good to my kids.

Somewhat reminiscent of the "well, Hitler was kind to dogs" defense.