BS: If I were a remainer...

Subject: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 10:53 AM

I make no secret of my belief that we will be in the long term better off outside the EU.

However, if my beliefs were as strongly held as the remainers tell me theirs are, I am left wondering why they do not engage more fully with the political system - if they wish to change or reverse things,...

For example, there is only one party that is totally uncompromisigly pro-EU, and that is the Liberal Democrats. I see no sudden change in the LD's fortunes.

Instead they seem to be applauding a few halfwits with placards outside the Houses of Parliament.

Corbyn...god alone knows what he truly thinks, however he's got a plan that will be acceptable to Brussels we are told. In other words - that's Brexit in some form or another.

If you really belive what you've been saying you believe in - why not get behind the Liberrals instead of Jeremy.

As usual i will vote Labour - always do. not with much joy in my heart.

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 11:02 AM

I always have been behind the Lib-Dems (the Liberals before that), I always voted for them in LEs and GEs, until they betrayed my trust and my vote in 2010 by aligning themselves with The Pig-Fucker and his disgusting Tory party.

It'll be a cold day in hell before I support them again.

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 11:07 AM

But its the issue you care about BWM.

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 11:08 AM

And BrexShit isn't, and shouldn't be, a party-political issue. The Praying Mantis, however, has made it thus by her policy of refusing to allow anyone from any of the other parties in to the process, so that she can follow the instructions of the small cadre of immensely-wealthy non-Dom tax-dodgers who have driven and controlled the Leave campaign from Day-One.

Had she put a cross-Party team together right back at the start, things might have been very different now, because she'd have everyone's buy-in. But that's not what the Tory Grandees wanted because their own personal wealth is far more important to them than the good of the nation.

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 11:10 AM

you really think they're that bright...?

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 11:13 AM

Depends who you mean by 'they'...

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Jack Campin
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 11:16 AM

The SNP is the major pro-EU party in the UK, and its stance has seen its membership overtake the Tories to become the second-largest party in the UK as a whole. Their dominance in Scottish politics is close to hegemonic and they may well be the only party with any Westminster seats in the next general election.

They really oughta open a branch in England. There must be more support there for their way of doing things than for Corbyn's weaseling evasiveness or the Liberals' total grovelling opportunism (remember that at one of the crucial votes in the Brexit process, one of them absented himself to speak at a rally of Christian homophobes and their leader simply went missing without ever offering an explanation). Sadiq Khan might be up for it.

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 11:19 AM

Lifelong labour voter..
But where i now live, voting Labour is more futile than trying to define folk...

So I reluctantly tactical voted for Liberals until that unforgivable treacherous betrayal...

At least my vote for Labour is one more to encourage them...

..and anyway, liberals never win round here either.....

Maybe our combined vote could beat the tories for once, at last,
but can't see local liberals would ever vote labour for whatever prissy high minded reasons...???

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 11:26 AM

I am interested in why people think we, the UK, will be better off out of the EU.

I have asked the pro Brexiteers on this site on many, many, occasions how we will be better off outside the EU.

To date I have been met with a resounding silence (oxymoron I know)

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 11:37 AM

I think part of the answer, Big Al, is that elections are about a wide range of issues. Brexit is important, and has a major effect on lots of other issues, but it is not the only important one. Even manifestos are not a statement of what a party will do, but more a description of an approach to life, which informs you how the party will react to unanticipated events: floods, financial crashes, terrorist attacks and on and on.

For the last 30 years or so, I have made a point of reading all the manifestos of all the parties listed on my ballot paper and try to judge which is closest to my desires and also taking into account past voting records of the candidates if known.

So voting on a single issue is not for me.

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 11:41 AM

I could well pose the same question to you, Al. If you are so anti-Europe, why did you not vote for UKIP?

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 12:03 PM

The LibDems have always been a bunch of pusillanimous, wet, expedient-minded Tories. It transpires that Steel knew all about Cyril Smith but kept quiet about it, and they threw their lot in, extremely undemocratically, with the real Tories in 2010, who took the suckers for a ride, ridiculing them with a fake referendum on the voting system and obliging them to overturn a solemn promise on tuition fees. And guess what, they didn't see it coming. Before that, they had opportunistically thrown their lot in with the charlatan SDP to keep Maggie in power for many more damaging years and they'd even tried it on with Labour in the seventies. That went well, didn't it? Libby-no-mates they are but they'll sell their souls to go for power at any price. No morals, no scruples and the leader before this one was a rabid anti-abortionist.The LibDem campaign round here in 2010 was all about "whatever else, vote LibDem in Cornwall to keep out the Tories at all costs." So we did, and they'd lied, and look where we are today. I'd rather hack off my family jewels with a rusty machete than vote LibDem, and the very thought of supporting them makes me want to throw up.

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 12:05 PM

Or, if you like, I'll tell you what I really think...

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 12:05 PM

Come on man, stop beating about the bush, spit it out, and say what you mean...!! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 12:10 PM

Steve, in my constituency, we have always had a Tory MP, but the Libs (and subsequently the Lib-Dems) have always had far greater support than Labour, so voting for them seemed the most likely way to unseat our 'orrible Tory. Sadly, it never worked.

And I'm in wholehearted agreement about the debacle of 2010. An unforgivable act of betrayal of those who voted for them. Never again.

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 12:25 PM

I bit my lip, held my nose and voted LibDem SIX BLOODY TIMES here because it's a Tory-LibDem marginal with Labour nowhere in sight. But I was hoodwinked in 2010 and I vowed never to do tactical voting again.

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 01:25 PM

As far as I can see from here the only thing that has changed in Parliamentary politics is the Labour is now making different promises
If they live up to them I'd walk over broken glass to get to the polls - if not THIS FELLER HAS IT RIGHT
Whatever the outcome of Brexit, after this now fully-admitted fiasco, it is doubtful if Parliament will ever win back the respect of the handful of people who once had it, leaving Britain with an extremely dangerous void which the rabid right will break its neck to fill
Couple this with an economy in crisis and a divided nation, the parallels with pre-war Germany are inescapable
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Iains
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 01:59 PM

Couple this with an economy in crisis

I presume you mean France and Germany and Italy and............. and that should be plural,economies!

The total deficit so far this financial year (since last April) was £23.1bn - a sizeable £18bn fall compared with the same period last year.
The UK economy provided some unexpected positive news today as high street sales grew by more than anticipated and the public finances continued to outperform.
Figures from the Office for National Statistics suggest the economy may be expanding at a better rate than expected.

Someone been watching too much Podge and Rodge? Remainiac nonsense again

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 02:28 PM

Another thread fucked.
Cheers Al, at least you tried.

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 02:32 PM

Wwell I don't want to get into the Brexit (good, or bad) debate.. I just think it would be good if we could contain the debate within democratic structures and take it out of the hands of abuse merchants.

I wouldn't vote for Farage.

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 02:47 PM

"Another thread fucked. "
Only if you respond to the lower orders Baccie
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 04:18 PM

I make no secret that I believe Brexit is a Russian mission success and will continue to whittle down the eu.

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 04:23 PM

Big Al,

Once again, 4 hours ago, I asked WHY people think the UK will be better off outside the EU.

Once again no-one has put forward a reasoned argument for the benefits to the UK if we were to leave the EU.

If there were OBVIOUS benefits to leaving the EU some of us might reconsider our position.

Despite having asked this question on dozens of occasions, no-one but no-one has even attempted to provide an answer.

Perhaps you could do the honours.

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 04:34 PM

Raggytash. I don't want this thread to be about Brexit.

I would like to see the remainers run a well organised , information based campaign express ing their point of view.

I was at elijah Wolf's open mic about a couple of weeks ago.

Elijah said, I don't give a shit about Brexit. But I've never known an issue so socially divisive. Coming out as a Brexiteer seems to be like an invitation to attack you..

The debate is so ill informed, as to be non-existent. But one thing, I believe is that political institutions and the laws that protect them is the forum it belongs rather than the sloganeering street fighters.

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 04:35 PM

Yes Steve my sister feels the same about the lib dems. Lives in the south west as well. The sense of betrayal is strong.

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 04:39 PM

Oh come Al, you open a thread entitled 'If I were a remainer ...' What do you expect.

I do notice that one again my question 'how will the UK benefit' has been studiously avoided.

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 05:32 PM

I could only vote for LIb Dem if on all policy areas they adopted Labour Party policy to the letter. Voting for parties because of one single issue cannot then allow it to implement any other part of its manifesto without a plebicite that grants explicit consent.

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 06:29 PM

I'll do almost anything to keep the Tories out. Tory MPs, along with every bugger that has ever voted Tory, have screwed the ordinary working people of this country for decades. Hate the Tories, know thine enemy and kick the bastards out! Kick out the Tories!

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 10:18 PM

Raggytash. I'm not a clever guy. Don't pretend to be. I've been insulted so much over brexit. That yes I avoid the conversations and arguments.

I get fed up with being called a fool by people who are obviously not all that smart. Told the economics of a very complicated subject are simple - by people I wouldn't trust to open a jar of jam.

I get fed up with both sides coming up with random facts obviously nicked from some partisan source.

The idea behind this thread was to suggest   maybe it would better to let the experts debate - at any rate take it away from the demagogues, off the streets.

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Mar 19 - 05:18 AM

Well Al, there's nothing to disagree with here... and it's a good indicator of why debate has become so inflamed over the past few years.

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 19 - 05:33 AM

The US has declared that there will be no free trade agreement if Britain opts for a hard border
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 23 Mar 19 - 05:35 AM

Who cares, we are sick to death of it all.

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Mar 19 - 05:38 AM

Ah, the Theresa May Method of Communication - telling us what 'we' think or don't think.

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Mar 19 - 07:33 AM

Here's a perfect example of the depths some people - and it seems to be predominantly Right-Wingers - are prepared to stoop to. A remarkable young woman, the Leader of her nation, being threatened with murder because she upheld decency and humanity at a time of tragedy.

And you wonder why people are finding it more and more difficult to discuss issues civilly and rationally?

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 03:20 AM

If i were a remainer...
I would sign the second referendum.
I would stop making remarks such as why did you not vote for ukip[i am sure denis skinner did note vote for ukip]

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Acorn4
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 04:08 AM

Why do so many of my Facebook friends seem to think there is something so incredibly left wing about the EU?

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 04:15 AM

Shouldn't you be asking that question on FaceBook?

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 04:33 AM

Dick, it really is simple. Al suggested that remainers should vote LibDem. A silly suggestion as it brings everything down to one issue. I demonstrated the absurdity of it by suggesting leavers, such as Al, should vote UKIP. You seem to have picked up on how silly my suggestion was without commenting on the absurdity of Al's opening premise.

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 04:48 AM

no it is not silly, the liberal party is the most pro european , but owing to the uk voting system, they never get the seats that they proprtional to their votes should get. al has also made it clear he votes labour, als comment is not absurd, it is one that should be given consideration, al would not vote for ukip because he is not racist and probably opposesthe eu on the same grounds as denis skinner, these are also my objections to the EU, but because i live in ireland, i would now probably possibly, now vote remain, if i had a vote

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 04:52 AM

The reason that BrexShit is such an unmitigated disaster is because The Praying Mantis has steadfastly refused to make it a cross-party issue - until recently, when it became glaringly obvious even to an obstinate mutton-head like her that she had hit a brick wall due to her own obstinacy and mutton-headedness, she made no effort to construct a cross-party committee, or even ask the other parties for their input.

She has been following the strict instructions of the tiny cadre of immensely-wealthy, predominantly non-dom, tax-dodgers who have driven this entire debacle since well before the referendum - hence the inexplicable obstinacy and mutton-headedness, even when things got to such a pitch that even a blind, dumb, deaf lunatic could detect and understand the message.

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 04:53 AM

Sorry about the underlining - fecking HTML! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 04:55 AM

Try again...

The reason that BrexShit is such an unmitigated disaster is because The Praying Mantis has steadfastly refused to make it a cross-party issue - until recently, when it became glaringly obvious even to an obstinate mutton-head like her that she had hit a brick wall due to her own obstinacy and mutton-headedness, she made no effort to construct a cross-party committee, or even ask the other parties for their input.

She has been following the strict instructions of the tiny cadre of immensely-wealthy, predominantly non-dom, tax-dodgers who have driven this entire debacle since well before the referendum - hence the inexplicable obstinacy and mutton-headedness, even when things got to such a pitch that even a blind, dumb, deaf lunatic could detect and understand the message.

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 04:57 AM

Further more i suspect that this is the beginning of the end of the empire known as the eu
, a pity in lots of ways because it did offer some social democratic reforms, and i think for some considerable time, people in rural ireland are going to have a reduction in their living standards, because the country is agricultural and relies to a considerable extent on selling cheese[particularly cheddar ]milk and beef to the uk

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 05:04 AM

I AGREE ,SHE SEEMS TO HAVE AN IDENTITY CRISIS SHE THINKS SHE IS GEOFF BOYCOTT WELL THIS IS NOT A GAME OF CRICKET

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 05:43 AM

Nice 'quote of the week' in this morning's Sunday Times
France's European Minister, Nathanlie Loieau, has said she's named her cat Brexit
"She wakes me up at night mewling that she wants to go out, but when I get up to open the door she stay's where she is"
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 05:48 AM

Boycott....you've bowled me a googly there....

I don't think you're all being fair to the fragrant Theresa.

After all she promised to deliver Brexit, and that's what the poor sod is doing her best to accomplish.

What I've been saying in this thread is that it really is up to the remainers to cross party ally with each other and frustrate her and get your own way.

She can't do this for you.
Okay the Lib Dem idea doesn't appeal.

So what idea does appeal? I think you've done everything that can be accomplished by being rude to me.

Get your act together and organise, if you want to win! Its harder work than thinking up nasty things to say. But it may well be more productive.

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Will Fly
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 06:20 AM

I make no secret of my belief that we will be in the long term better off outside the EU.

How? I'm really curious.

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Jos
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 06:30 AM

Jim, France's European Minister Nathalie Loiseau must be a Mudcat reader:

RE: How many Mudcats have cats!?
From: Donuel - PM
Date: 19 Mar 19 - 06:01 AM

our cat is named Brexit

He meows to go out but when we open the door he just sits there undecided.

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 06:54 AM

Mm Loiseau must be a secret Mudcat watcher
Thanks for that Jos
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 07:47 AM

My views are an irrelevance and will stimulate the production of all kinds of things.

The point is I'd like you guys not to feel cheated as you obviously do.