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BS: an idea: Operation 29 September

keberoxu 29 Mar 19 - 07:57 PM
Rapparee 29 Mar 19 - 09:32 PM
Stanron 30 Mar 19 - 04:00 AM
Backwoodsman 30 Mar 19 - 04:14 AM
Jack Campin 30 Mar 19 - 04:56 AM
keberoxu 30 Mar 19 - 03:03 PM
punkfolkrocker 30 Mar 19 - 03:09 PM
punkfolkrocker 30 Mar 19 - 03:17 PM
Jeri 30 Mar 19 - 03:57 PM
Jeri 30 Mar 19 - 04:33 PM
punkfolkrocker 30 Mar 19 - 05:01 PM
Backwoodsman 30 Mar 19 - 06:12 PM
keberoxu 30 Mar 19 - 06:36 PM
Jeri 30 Mar 19 - 06:43 PM
Stanron 30 Mar 19 - 07:15 PM
Helen 30 Mar 19 - 10:52 PM
wysiwyg 31 Mar 19 - 07:11 PM
keberoxu 31 Mar 19 - 07:50 PM
Jeri 31 Mar 19 - 08:24 PM
Ebbie 01 Apr 19 - 03:59 AM
Ebbie 01 Apr 19 - 04:02 AM
Mr Red 01 Apr 19 - 06:24 AM
Will Fly 01 Apr 19 - 06:40 AM
Jon Freeman 01 Apr 19 - 08:50 AM
punkfolkrocker 01 Apr 19 - 09:14 AM
Jon Freeman 01 Apr 19 - 09:27 AM
Backwoodsman 01 Apr 19 - 10:44 AM
Stanron 01 Apr 19 - 12:18 PM
Donuel 01 Apr 19 - 12:20 PM
Jeri 01 Apr 19 - 12:42 PM
punkfolkrocker 01 Apr 19 - 01:10 PM
Backwoodsman 01 Apr 19 - 01:15 PM
Backwoodsman 01 Apr 19 - 01:20 PM
Stanron 01 Apr 19 - 01:29 PM
keberoxu 01 Apr 19 - 02:22 PM
Jeri 01 Apr 19 - 06:36 PM
keberoxu 02 Apr 19 - 11:53 AM
punkfolkrocker 02 Apr 19 - 12:57 PM
punkfolkrocker 02 Apr 19 - 12:59 PM
Tattie Bogle 02 Apr 19 - 09:05 PM
Steve Shaw 03 Apr 19 - 03:58 AM
punkfolkrocker 03 Apr 19 - 09:46 AM
keberoxu 03 Apr 19 - 01:53 PM
Helen 03 Apr 19 - 02:08 PM
Steve Shaw 03 Apr 19 - 04:57 PM
Mr Red 04 Apr 19 - 05:50 AM
keberoxu 04 Apr 19 - 09:29 AM
Backwoodsman 04 Apr 19 - 09:30 AM
Steve Shaw 04 Apr 19 - 09:37 AM
keberoxu 04 Apr 19 - 10:06 AM
Jack Campin 04 Apr 19 - 10:13 AM
punkfolkrocker 04 Apr 19 - 10:25 AM
Steve Shaw 04 Apr 19 - 10:34 AM
Steve Shaw 04 Apr 19 - 10:36 AM
keberoxu 04 Apr 19 - 01:37 PM
punkfolkrocker 04 Apr 19 - 01:53 PM
keberoxu 04 Apr 19 - 02:17 PM
Jos 04 Apr 19 - 02:53 PM
Donuel 04 Apr 19 - 03:57 PM
punkfolkrocker 04 Apr 19 - 07:15 PM
Backwoodsman 05 Apr 19 - 02:22 AM
Steve Shaw 05 Apr 19 - 05:00 AM
Backwoodsman 05 Apr 19 - 05:35 AM
Donuel 05 Apr 19 - 05:59 AM
Steve Shaw 05 Apr 19 - 07:37 AM
punkfolkrocker 05 Apr 19 - 08:25 AM
Steve Shaw 05 Apr 19 - 04:56 PM
keberoxu 05 Apr 19 - 05:48 PM
Steve Shaw 05 Apr 19 - 06:00 PM
Helen 05 Apr 19 - 06:11 PM

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Subject: Bring Back Senoufou/Eliza
From: keberoxu
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 07:57 PM

On 29 September of last year,
many of us Mudcatters came together [online] in a common effort,
modest though it was.

29 September is Senoufou/Eliza's birthday.
The Mudcat had a birthday thread for Senoufou
and that thread was a peaceable gathering of Mudcatters far and wide,
albeit a virtual gathering.

It even concluded with several Mudcatters in Scotland
telling Senoufou to let them know before she travels their way,
because they intend to greet her in person should she visit.

Today is 29 March.
Senoufou/Eliza's birthday is six [calendar] months away.

We have six months to work at an idea -- just an idea --
that Senoufou may be here, as she was last year,
to receive our heartiest and heartfelt birthday wishes.

Not for me to say how, but ... six months ...
isn't that enough time to make a difference?
At the 29th of every coming month, contemplate the possibility
that we're one month closer to saying
Happy Birthday Senoufou
and it's just possible that she'll be here with us then.

If nothing comes of this post/thread, so be it,
but what's the harm in voicing the idea? Thanks for listening.


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Subject: RE: BS: an idea: Operation 29 September
From: Rapparee
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 09:32 PM

Isn't she around now?


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Subject: RE: BS: an idea: Operation 29 September
From: Stanron
Date: 30 Mar 19 - 04:00 AM

It's been a while since she posted. I miss her civilising influence.


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Subject: RE: BS: an idea: Operation 29 September
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Mar 19 - 04:14 AM

Senoufou is very much missed, certainly, by me. She and I agree on many things, and disagree quite firmly on a few issues. Even though we have different views, Senoufou is someone who has the grace to disagree in an amicable way, and for that she has my great respect. Unfortunately there are others who seem unable to return the grace she displays.

I very much hope to see her once again on this forum.


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Subject: RE: BS: an idea: Operation 29 September
From: Jack Campin
Date: 30 Mar 19 - 04:56 AM

I had no idea she'd gone away. The last post I saw, she was her usual cheery self.


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Subject: RE: BS: an idea: Operation 29 September
From: keberoxu
Date: 30 Mar 19 - 03:03 PM

The last PM I received from Senoufou/Eliza is dated 5 March.
In part, the PM says:

"I have decided not to post on Mudcat ever again. I have had enough of [concealed to protect the guilty...], and the political attacks by many others simply because I 'lean to the right.'
It's become a bear pit -- such a shame
but I don't want to get involved any more.

"I'm glad you know this, so that the nicer souls on here
won't worry about me
and think I've popped my clogs!"

While I did carefully choose a few individuals to whom to send PMs about Senoufou's decision, it seemed most prudent to give the whole thing some time before
posting Senoufou's message on a thread
where it may be read by any and all Mudcat visitors.

After all, she has left and returned before.
If in fact she is here, and posting as before,
no one will be happier than I to eat my words.


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Subject: RE: BS: an idea: Operation 29 September
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Mar 19 - 03:09 PM

Sen is living proof that folks on the other side of the political divide
can sometimes be much nicer human beings
than many of the nasty folks on your own side...


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Subject: RE: BS: an idea: Operation 29 September
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Mar 19 - 03:17 PM

.. in fact she's far too nice for her own side...

Why can't life be simpler...???


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Subject: RE: BS: an idea: Operation 29 September
From: Jeri
Date: 30 Mar 19 - 03:57 PM

I hope she comes back.
However, I saw what I think was the precipitating issue. The person she said was out-of-line, abusive, or whatever, wasn't. He said something she needed to hear, and at least think about. Nice people can be hurtful and wrong, too.
But thank you so much for getting involved in this, and still managing to talk around the issue so nobody knows specifics.


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Subject: RE: BS: an idea: Operation 29 September
From: Jeri
Date: 30 Mar 19 - 04:33 PM

The other thing I'll say before stopping is that I've been through enough here, and elsewhere. People do things because that's what they want. If they leave and blame it on someone else, it's their decision. Nobody else's. There's been enough going on here that's driven me mildly nuts, but I know if I say it made me leave, well, it didn't.
I decided to leave.
I did.
And it's ok if other people make the decision to leave.


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Subject: RE: BS: an idea: Operation 29 September
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Mar 19 - 05:01 PM

Whenever I've got fed up and bored here, I just quietly slipped away without any drama...

Then eventually drifted back again with no loud announcements..

No point getting all worked up and taking it far too personally...

I guesss most sensible mudcatters would do similar...


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Subject: RE: BS: an idea: Operation 29 September
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Mar 19 - 06:12 PM

Amen, pfr.


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Subject: RE: BS: an idea: Operation 29 September
From: keberoxu
Date: 30 Mar 19 - 06:36 PM

I will miss hearing, this spring,
about the Mad Swans and their latest
whatever-you-call-more-than-one-of-'em of cygnets.


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Subject: RE: BS: an idea: Operation 29 September
From: Jeri
Date: 30 Mar 19 - 06:43 PM

PFR, taking a break is something I believe most of us have done.
A friend of mine once said that Mudcat was fine entertainment, but you couldn't start taking things personally, or it would mess with your head. I remind myself of that quite often, and not just regarding Mudcat. It usually is a nicer world when you can be an observer. I don't think that detachment is possible, or even desirable, all of the time. It sure helps me when I start to get angry, though.


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Subject: RE: BS: an idea: Operation 29 September
From: Stanron
Date: 30 Mar 19 - 07:15 PM

Social Media. Too few innocents. We should all do better.


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Subject: RE: BS: an idea: Operation 29 September
From: Helen
Date: 30 Mar 19 - 10:52 PM

keberoxu, thanks for letting us know. I have always enjoyed Senoufou's posts and I appreciate her approach to topics. I respect her and I hope she does return here some day.

After an especially aggravating series of posts aimed at me and others I stepped back from Mudcat some years back, but now I am here again. Some of the nicer people are too nice here to stay away from and I am interested in the topics on the threads. It helped me to put a bit of distance - both time and virtual space - between me and some of the less civilised responses.

My wish for everybody is Unity, Hope, Love and Peace.


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Subject: RE: BS: an idea: Operation 29 September
From: wysiwyg
Date: 31 Mar 19 - 07:11 PM

Very poor form to quote a PM. Summarizing is fine. Quoting is NOT.


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Subject: RE: BS: an idea: Operation 29 September
From: keberoxu
Date: 31 Mar 19 - 07:50 PM

Not my first
very-poor-form
on, or off, the Mudcat.

And, knowing me, it won't be the last.

We will "all get along" in some fashion, regardless.
We can, and we will.


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Subject: RE: BS: an idea: Operation 29 September
From: Jeri
Date: 31 Mar 19 - 08:24 PM

There's an expectation that a Private Message will remain private. If you post it publicly, people may not trust you to keep their communication private. (I didn't notice, but if I had, I would've deleted it.)


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Subject: RE: BS: an idea: Operation 29 September
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Apr 19 - 03:59 AM

I believe that Eliza has posted in several threads recently.


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Subject: RE: BS: an idea: Operation 29 September
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Apr 19 - 04:02 AM

Sheesh. I am mistaken. The thread I was reading was the Spring one- Sen wrote in May 2018.


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Subject: RE: BS: an idea: Operation 29 September
From: Mr Red
Date: 01 Apr 19 - 06:24 AM

H
The Mudcat is the poorer for the loss of reasoned people backing off. It is impossible not to react when people direct their comments to you personally there is a better way, `address the issue not the person`. Sen did this admirably. It is incumbent on the sender more than the receiver to think how others may interpret your words. Or admit you have not thought it through, enough. But sometimes ego prevents ownership of your own functioning of your brain. I think the word I am hovering over is empathy!
Caveat receiver.
Happy September Seen.


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Subject: RE: BS: an idea: Operation 29 September
From: Will Fly
Date: 01 Apr 19 - 06:40 AM

Well, if we don't hear from Eliza, you can all wish me well on 29th September - assuming I haven't popped my clogs by then - as it will be my 53rd wedding anniversary.

And I hope she will be back here among the well-wishers...


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Subject: RE: BS: an idea: Operation 29 September
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 01 Apr 19 - 08:50 AM

Another September birthday… Mine is earlier in the month, a week later it’s a brother, I think between that there is a sister in law, and later a nephew.

I might bump into Sen one of these days but I don’t get out much. I think I saw her in Sherringham a few years back – there’d not be too many with an African partner watching a morris dancing event in this part of N Norfolk. I’d normally (for better or worse) make myself known to someone with whom I’ve enjoyed forum threads but circumstances didn’t allow on that occasion.


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Subject: RE: BS: an idea: Operation 29 September
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Apr 19 - 09:14 AM

Where I live has been a tory safe seat since time began..
Elderly tories dominate this town.
By our local standards they'd regard Sen as a subversive pinko commie...


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Subject: RE: BS: an idea: Operation 29 September
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 01 Apr 19 - 09:27 AM

Demographic can vary a lot... North Norfolk has been a Liberal Democrat seat since 2001 although with 59% Leave feeling, perhaps it will be Tory next time... Voting aside, I think you could view the area as largely traditional English conservative in outlook...

That said, I think Sen is south of my own constituency.


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Subject: RE: BS: an idea: Operation 29 September
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Apr 19 - 10:44 AM

I PM'd Sen two days ago, drawing her attention to this thread - no response so far, so I guess she hasn't been here, or she's no longer interested. I hope she looks in.


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Subject: RE: BS: an idea: Operation 29 September
From: Stanron
Date: 01 Apr 19 - 12:18 PM

PMs go to the mudcat page. If Sen is not looking at mudcat she wont see them. If anyone has a direct email address that would be a way to send greetings, support or apologies. If you can, please do.


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Subject: RE: BS: an idea: Operation 29 September
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Apr 19 - 12:20 PM

Will Fly you cad. You apparently robbed the cradle
50 years ago.


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Subject: RE: BS: an idea: Operation 29 September
From: Jeri
Date: 01 Apr 19 - 12:42 PM

At what point does poking someone until they jump become obnoxious?
If it was me, and I wanted a break, I wouldn't appreciate being called out. Maybe that's just me, though.


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Subject: RE: BS: an idea: Operation 29 September
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Apr 19 - 01:10 PM

I'll miss Sen, she held an essential role as a calming compassionate counterbalance
to all the belligeent stupidity and intolerance from both sides.
Her wisdom and articulate reason, helped me on day's when my mind is foggiest
and I can't express my ideas into the right words...
I'd welcome if she took a leap of faith in a more leftwards direction,
but respect her position as an old fashioned moderate conservative...
It's a shame she is too sensitive for BS, where she is needed...


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Subject: RE: BS: an idea: Operation 29 September
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Apr 19 - 01:15 PM

"PMs go to the mudcat page. If Sen is not looking at mudcat she wont see them. If anyone has a direct email address that would be a way to send greetings, support or apologies. If you can, please do."

Yes, and of course I knew that. I had no email address, so I PM'd in the hope that Sen would occasionally check in and reply - which she has now done.

Sometimes it's worth taking a punt...


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Subject: RE: BS: an idea: Operation 29 September
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Apr 19 - 01:20 PM

I have no intention of revealing the content of our PM conversation, other than to say that Senoufou and her husband are well and happy. And that makes me happy.


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Subject: RE: BS: an idea: Operation 29 September
From: Stanron
Date: 01 Apr 19 - 01:29 PM

Backwoodsman wrote: Sometimes it's worth taking a punt...
Cheers. Well done.


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Subject: RE: BS: an idea: Operation 29 September
From: keberoxu
Date: 01 Apr 19 - 02:22 PM

I sincerely appreciate Jeri's post
with its simple, direct explanation
of how consenting adults behave
with things like private messages.

I was essentially raised in an extended family
which behaved like a den of alley cats:
anti-social, predatory, fiercely territorial,
secretive to the point of deception.

That and my natural tendency to just blurt things out
means that social manners and me are often a long ways apart.

Others at the Mudcat have contacted me and
have unintentionally raised my hackles with their presumption that,
well, you understand, we're civilized around here
so our manners are cultivated accordingly,
you do realize that you mustn't give offense ...

the direct order from a superior officer comes as a blessed relief
by comparison.

Thanks again, Jeri, and I really mean thanks.

I guess the Mudcat would be more to other people's liking
if I wasn't around to stick my foot through it. However.


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Subject: RE: BS: an idea: Operation 29 September
From: Jeri
Date: 01 Apr 19 - 06:36 PM

Keb, I think Mudcat IS "a den if alley cats". I think many here think they're better than that. I try to speak plainly, and I appreciate it when others do, too. It's hard to comunicate when you're constantly wondering if so-and-so really meant what they said, or occasionally, you're trying to figure out what it was they actually said.


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Subject: RE: BS: an idea: Operation 29 September
From: keberoxu
Date: 02 Apr 19 - 11:53 AM

This is my opinion only,
as I cannot presume to speak for Senoufou/Eliza.

I suspect it was a matter of
"the final straw."
On this, or any other, thread,
it is possible to pick over the exchanges of posts
and to be none the wiser about Eliza's decision.

So I believe it was less about the specific instance,
the time, the place, and the issue under discussion,
and more about the cumulative effect of
one too many misunderstandings or outright hostilities.

In this, I fear, Senoufou is in excellent company and plenty of it.
I am still a Mudcat newbie,
but the old-timer Mudcat members
probably have got a list as long as your arm
of fellow Mudcatters they remember, and miss,
who just said "that is the final straw"
and retreated to the Facebook account, if that.


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Subject: RE: BS: an idea: Operation 29 September
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 02 Apr 19 - 12:57 PM

Facebook accounts are shit for any serious purposes,
and are killing off good old fashioned easier to search and effectively archived forums...

No excuses for that...


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Subject: RE: BS: an idea: Operation 29 September
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 02 Apr 19 - 12:59 PM

..might just as well scrawl graffiti and hope someone finds it relevant...

[..and that includes twitter and youtube comments as well..]


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Subject: RE: BS: an idea: Operation 29 September
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 02 Apr 19 - 09:05 PM

Another one who misses Senofou's presence here, and sorry that she felt the need to drop out for what I hope is only a while, and not permanently. Enjoyed our common bonds fe East Anglia and Scotland, and her hilarious inventiveness, e.g. The Mudcat Recovery Ward.
I learned a long time ago that if you are up against it with another Mudcatter who is being less than nice to you, the best thing to do is to keep schtumm and not give them any more ammunition to fire back.


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Subject: RE: BS: an idea: Operation 29 September
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 03:58 AM

Well that's me you're talking about. I'd just point out that she was being less than nice about many thousands of people who have multiple personal issues not of their own making and who are routinely misunderstood, lampooned or vilified, and my responses to her were merely pointing that out in a rather direct manner. Having said that, I enjoyed my banters with her here and I hope she'll be back soon.


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Subject: RE: BS: an idea: Operation 29 September
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 09:46 AM

Steve - When that thread started it looked like one I could get involved in..
[It's an issue me and the mrs occasionally return to discussing.
Her infant/primary school now has it's first case of a child wanting reassignment...]

But that thread too soon grew so big I couldn't face up to reading it.
Plus, I guessed all the 'usual' opinions would prevail.
So I abstained from even opening it for a look in...

I wouldn't be surprised if Sen's more conservative christian background
influenced her contributions.
If that is the case, then she should have been politely / tactfully challenged
and encouraged to take a fresh new view on the subject...


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Subject: RE: BS: an idea: Operation 29 September
From: keberoxu
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 01:53 PM

What short memories we have.

Eliza/Senoufou has objected strongly on occasion,
on the Mudcat, long before the thread
that proved the 'final straw.'

I have not forgotten how outraged she was when
a member, on a BS thread, used the phrase 'bugger off.'
She simply would not have it.
And today, well,...nobody of that membername posts in BS.
That was a matter of months, and few months at that, ago.
I say again as I have said before,
this appears to me, a cumulative thing.

If Senoufou's outrage combined with despair over time,
then anything from anybody else could have been the 'final straw.'

As to the actual 'final straw' exchange of posts,
I remember looking at what Senoufou stated.
And immediately what I thought of,
was not her lengthy career as a schoolteacher,
but how,
before she studied to be an educator,
she trained as a nurse
and worked as a nurse, no doubt to support herself financially
as much as anything.
She was a very young woman when she got her training and
started working as a nurse,
and, she will forgive me underlining this,
that was many decades ago.

I have little doubt that her "antediluvian" position
is solidly founded in the training of her youth.
And so any challenge to her teachers, her colleagues,
and her patients in those long-ago days ,
well, of course she takes it personally.


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Subject: RE: BS: an idea: Operation 29 September
From: Helen
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 02:08 PM

Tattie Bogle, I use the same tactic.

"I learned a long time ago that if you are up against it with another Mudcatter who is being less than nice to you, the best thing to do is to keep schtumm and not give them any more ammunition to fire back."

Although being a ginger-haired firebrand with a big mouth and a big temper, sometimes it's all I can do to strap myself to the masthead and weather the storm without letting loose with the ranting and raving.

I'm hoping Senoufou/Eliza comes back here one day after she has regained her inner equilibrium about Mudcat and Mudcatters. If she doesn't choose to come back, it will make me sad, but also the thought of the Mudcat exchanges we shared in threads will always make me smile.


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Subject: RE: BS: an idea: Operation 29 September
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Apr 19 - 04:57 PM

Highly intelligent people with a lifetime of varied experiences and who have shown wisdom in so many spheres, who then make Mudcat posts that express intolerance and lack of empathy for a minority who struggle to find a happy place in our world through no fault of their own, seriously disappoint me, and I'm not going to expend too much energy trying to make excuses for them. Senoufou made that awful post, was taken to task, took umbrage and left of her own accord. No swearing, no insulting, no hounding out, no name-calling. I've made many an awful post here, been taken to task, taken umbrage on occasion and have privately and/or publicly (usually privately - call it male hubris) acknowledged my stupidity. It's called taking it on the chin. And I'm still here.

And antediluvian didn't deserve your speech marks.


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Subject: RE: BS: an idea: Operation 29 September
From: Mr Red
Date: 04 Apr 19 - 05:50 AM

another Mudcatter who is being less than nice to you, the best thing to do is to keep schtumm and not give them any more ammunition to fire back.

Mostly I do, but usually leave with some non-sequitur that actually points to a less than flattering realism. It probably would go over the head of the target, but the intelligent observer would see the point.

The problem usually stems from peoples' inability to address the issue, instead of their addressing the issuer. And there are those above who read this and don't ascribe any value to it. They are wrong.
You know who you are.


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Subject: RE: BS: an idea: Operation 29 September
From: keberoxu
Date: 04 Apr 19 - 09:29 AM

Senoufou is a giver, not a taker.

That is one reason that my opening post here
has attracted responses
which sympathize with Senoufou/Eliza,
whether or not
they disagree with the statements in those last posts of hers
on an older thread.

There are many fine descriptive adjectives for a person's sense of humor, for the tone of her statements, for her level of expertise, experience, intelligence, ... one may go on and on and on.
And still, one's assessment of Senoufou
may evade the central most attractive thing
that fellow forum members recall about her:
she is a giver, not a taker.

Now I could make this post two or three times longer
by referencing posts (public posts, not private messages)
that document how Senoufou/Eliza has been of service,
and that with a strong will and a cheerful manner,
to those in need;
also how strongly she sympathizes with first responders
and others in the helping professions.

But at the end of the day, it comes down to this
(this kept me awake last night,
so it is throbbing in my head somewhat):
Senoufou is a giver, not a taker.


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Subject: RE: BS: an idea: Operation 29 September
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Apr 19 - 09:30 AM

And I think you’ve made a very valid point, Keb.


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Subject: RE: BS: an idea: Operation 29 September
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Apr 19 - 09:37 AM

Givers are more than capable of expressing wrong-headed notions. Being a giver doesn't exempt you from criticism if you slip up. If the posters who are giving rather soft-centred responses in this thread could accept that we'd all be in agreement. Sometimes you just have to be told. Yes you do.


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Subject: RE: BS: an idea: Operation 29 September
From: keberoxu
Date: 04 Apr 19 - 10:06 AM

The differences here go deeper, it appears to me, much deeper
than agreement and disagreement.

It has been an edifying experience
to look, and look again and again as I have done,
at the divide --
on the older, openly contentious thread --
between two categories of submissions
and the members/posters who submit them.

My counselor, who taught me much that I did not know before
about what social animals humans are,
used to distinguish between
the cognitive and the schematic.
She had to do so, in my personal instance,
because my issue of early childhood trauma
had schematic consequences,
and the cognitive level does not go deep enough
to confront schema.

I submit, correctly or incorrectly I suppose,
as this is outside my area of expertise,
that the differences being aggravated through discussion here
go deeper than agreement or disagreement,
deeper than the cognitive level.
The differences are nearer the depth of the schematic level
than the cognitive level.
If I presume more than that, I'm really asking for it;
but the depth of this rift, this divide,
cries out for attention.

Yes, I will probably
endure another sleep-troubled night over this question.
But it is important
to stop papering over the cracks between
one person's viewpoint and another's.
I really do not want to drive a wedge between people here.
I'm trying to do something different than that.
But when deep fissures and cleavages between viewpoints
are papered over with superficial agreements,
well,
history is littered with the consequences.


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Subject: RE: BS: an idea: Operation 29 September
From: Jack Campin
Date: 04 Apr 19 - 10:13 AM

I haven't looked at that thread and won't. (I ignore most below the line threads). I can pretty well guarantee that my opinions would make Steve and Eliza equally apoplectic, and I don't see anything to be gained by entering into a discussion about it.


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Subject: RE: BS: an idea: Operation 29 September
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Apr 19 - 10:25 AM

Keb - most folks get on with life, for good or bad,
without resort to counselors and over indulgent self-destructive navel-gazing...

If this sounds flippant and derogatory, believe me it's not intended that way.
I speak from experience of how Councelling completely f@cked up a close family member's life...

.. and how I, and most ordinary folks, best try to cope with existence and relationships
away from the clutches of parasitic councilling 'professionals'...

We're all grown ups, it's Sen's decision what she does regarding mudcat...
I'd hope she returns eventually.
If she don't - that's that... no point making a big meal of it...


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Subject: RE: BS: an idea: Operation 29 September
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Apr 19 - 10:34 AM

Well just try to remember that you're not seeing whole people here, just what they choose to type in an internet forum. And also try to remember that an honourable disagreement is between two genuine and thoughtfully-conceived viewpoints. In the case in question, there's no doubt in my mind that one viewpoint was not thoughtfully-conceived, containing as it did expressions of ignorance of the facts and of resulting skewed priorities. I see no reason why I should accept my demurral from that as just another honest disagreement. More of a protest against intolerance, I'd say. Having said all that, I'd be the first to welcome her if she came back and not another word on this unhappy matter would I utter. And we are all grown-ups here and there is no need for anyone to lose sleep.


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Subject: RE: BS: an idea: Operation 29 September
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Apr 19 - 10:36 AM

You can't make me apoplectic, Jack. This is not real life.


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Subject: RE: BS: an idea: Operation 29 September
From: keberoxu
Date: 04 Apr 19 - 01:37 PM

Soft-centered, and navel-gazing. That does indeed sound familiar.
Not the first time such has been spoken in my direction,
nor shall it be the last.
And as I responded before -- quite some time before --
I like navel-gazing threads, anyhow.

About the discussion which has triggered
this acting-out of deep division,
I posted twice I think to that thread,
and to that discussion, on the agreement / disagreement level,
I have nothing further to contribute;
so that thread will be free of any future posts from me.

The positive regard expressed on this thread, however,
includes the agreement level, the cognitive level,
and it includes rather more than that.
It is a strategy of exclusivity,
a valid one as strategies go,
to insist on the elimination of doubt in particular
and feeling/emotion/affinity in general.

Be as exclusive as it suits you to be, on this thread or any other.
Only, some threads will be more exclusive, are indeed more exclusive,
than other threads, in the emotions and feeling/convictions
that move below the surface of
"honorable / honest disagreements."

The fact is that both sides of this deep rift
have experienced feelings of exclusion.
There is a great deal more to say, actually, about said experiences.

One side states: "insulting statement."
The other side states: "rude response."
On the level of words,
go right ahead, if you choose,
and discuss who is more insulted/insulting.
There is hurt and frustration on both sides here.

And as for me, if it is a question of how I feel,
I can and will put feelings into words on this particular thread,
however carefully I withhold my expressions of feelings or emotions
on other threads in
the non-music area of the Mudcat forum.


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Subject: RE: BS: an idea: Operation 29 September
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Apr 19 - 01:53 PM

.. simple things needn't be made so over-complicated...

That can back fire disasterously...

If someone made this much fuss about me having a minor strop and leaving mudcat in a huff,
I'd be far too self-concious and embarrassed to ever come back again...


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Subject: RE: BS: an idea: Operation 29 September
From: keberoxu
Date: 04 Apr 19 - 02:17 PM

I can see it now.
It's September 2019.
This particular thread will have been shut down,
probably because of something I said
which I ought not to have said.

Senoufou/Eliza will have held to her resolution
not to continue as a forum member.
If she lurks, she will do so just as
other old-time Mudcat ex-members do,
without ever betraying her presence
in the non-music, member-exclusive section of the forum.
I don't have any way of calculating the quantity
of former Mudcat members who have kept such resolutions
and who still care about many of the fellow Mudcatters
whom they left behind.
I take others' word for it, like some of the
mustn't-mention-'em Moderators.

And some of us, including me, will still feel the absence
of somebody for whom we had, and still have, sincere feelings.


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Subject: RE: BS: an idea: Operation 29 September
From: Jos
Date: 04 Apr 19 - 02:53 PM

punkfolkrocker just said what I've been thinking for a while - if I left and this much fuss was made about it I would have been far too embarrassed to come back, ever.

However, when I did leave for a while I did just that. I didn't lurk, or pop in to read a few threads without posting. I stayed away completely, so that if anyone did notice and remark on it I would have been totally unaware of it.


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Subject: RE: BS: an idea: Operation 29 September
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Apr 19 - 03:57 PM

I think I 'stayed away' for 7 years. I lost the essence of ego and came back. That last sentence is an example of navel gazing that might irk pfr.


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Subject: RE: BS: an idea: Operation 29 September
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Apr 19 - 07:15 PM

Donny - why would you want to irk anyone...???

There's nothing to stop you butting in here,
But what do you want from me in response...???

If you have something, relevant, constructive to say to me - make it clear and direct to the point...

..but if you only came in to irk and run...


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Subject: RE: BS: an idea: Operation 29 September
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Apr 19 - 02:22 AM

Time to drop it and move on...??


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Subject: RE: BS: an idea: Operation 29 September
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Apr 19 - 05:00 AM

Agreed, John. I'd appreciate the opportunity to unclench my buttocks... ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: an idea: Operation 29 September
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Apr 19 - 05:35 AM

LOL! That conjures up an image.... :-) :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: an idea: Operation 29 September
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Apr 19 - 05:59 AM

In defense of counseling, it can save time. Imagine knowing then what you know now. Pfr while its not not my intent to 'irk' we can not control how other people might choose to take a comment or pov.

I remember being in Steve's hotseat when I posted 100 jokes about the most remarkable man in the world, but I had changed the name to Amos.
The backlash lasted for weeks until Amos intervened and stated he saw the humor in it. In this case Keboroxu could exonerate Steve who is sometimes guilty of lashing out but does not deserve a life sentence.
Afterall it was Keb's indictment.

PS
a PM should remain private in a person's lifetime however they are searchable by the FBI.


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Subject: RE: BS: an idea: Operation 29 September
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Apr 19 - 07:37 AM

I do not require to be exonerated, and as for the rest of your post I haven't a clue what you're burbling on about.


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Subject: RE: BS: an idea: Operation 29 September
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Apr 19 - 08:25 AM

Donny - this is/was keb's somewhat overwrought thread about Sen.. not you...

The only point worth making here is,
we'd all like Sen to come back refreshed some day...

The End...


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Subject: RE: BS: an idea: Operation 29 September
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Apr 19 - 04:56 PM

Utter nonsense. You've become a noisy one yourself. Sleep well tonight.


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Subject: RE: BS: an idea: Operation 29 September
From: keberoxu
Date: 05 Apr 19 - 05:48 PM

Make me choose sides,
and Senoufou's side is my choice, not yours.
Better my person is respected -- and Senoufou's even more.


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Subject: RE: BS: an idea: Operation 29 September
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Apr 19 - 06:00 PM

Fine. Now quell the noise.


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Subject: RE: BS: an idea: Operation 29 September
From: Helen
Date: 05 Apr 19 - 06:11 PM

Steve Shaw said, "Sometimes you just have to be told. Yes you do." and I've said this before - can't remember to whom and in which context, but it is still my stance on disagreements: 'Tain't What You Do (It's The Way That You Do It) - Ella Fitzgerald

The word "you" is aimed generically, and not at anyone specifically in this thread.
I closed this thread. Threads started to talk about a particular individual are never good, especially when that person isn't even here. It's about who did what wrong. The thread inevitably degenerates into personal battles, and guilt-tripping, which is where this went. --Mod


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This Thread Is Closed.


Mudcat time: 18 July 4:15 PM EDT

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