Burl Ives the musician (instrumentalist)?

Subject: Folklore: Burl Ives the musician ?
From: beachcomber
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 01:04 PM

Seeing Burl Ives mentioned, in a current thread, reminded me to enquire what Mudcatters, who have seen him perform live, thought of his guitar playing ? I did see him once myself, in a concert sometime in the late 1960s, in a little known venue in Cork city, Ireland. He had arrived here more or less incognito, so low a profile did he adopt. Apart from one brief TV appearance on our LATE, LATE SHOW, with a not too genned -up Gaye Byrne, as the host, I don't remember that he played much at any other venue. On the show and indeed in that concert where I saw him on stage, he did not show any great ability on the small guitar that he used. What, I wonder, was the true extent of his musicianship ?
I had an album (vinyl) on which he sang "Irish traditional songs" and on which there were some lovely little riffs between verses. Were they all his own work, I would love to know ?

Subject: RE: Burl Ives the musician ?
From: Deckman
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 04:24 PM

I was just 13 years old when I discovered the world of traditional folk music. My first mentor, Bill Higley, was an old on air radio singing partner of "Haywire Mac, in San Francisco. Bill told me to study Burl Ives, both for his guitar work and for a vocal phrasing.

His guitar accompaniments were perfectly planned to as to NOT get in the way of the song. His diction was very good. But most of all, his vocal phrasing was simply perfect. Even today, I study his phrasing in an effort to get the most out of every song. bob(deckman)nelson

Subject: RE: Burl Ives the musician ?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 11:00 PM

Beachcomber, I think you make a mistake in considering Burl Ives as a "musician" only with regards to his ability to play an instrument. I think he was quite good with the guitar, but his primary ability as as a vocalist - and I think vocalists are certainly musicians. To my mind, he was an absolutely delightful musician, both singing and playing an instrument.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: Burl Ives the musician ?
From: GUEST,keberoxu
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 08:27 AM

My parents' record collection included Burl Ives,
but they did not have the Irish lit album,
which sounds like a real find.
I will go prospecting for it.

Well, one could compare and contrast
Burl Ives and Richard Dyer-Bennet.
Both had educations in classical music,
and both were dedicated to entertainment.
Ives was more proficient in singing than in guitar playing.
Dyer-Bennet could do wonderful things with the guitar,
while his singing gets an "A - for - effort."

Ives took his presence and his dedication to the spoken word
all the way to Hollywood, and
I can't remember the Disney film I saw him in --
because I was too engrossed in watching him steal the show.

Dyer-Bennet had aspirations as well, but not to Hollywood.
He wrote a singable English translation -- still in print ? --
to "Die Schöne Müllerin",
the Wilhelm Müller / Franz Schubert song cycle.

My parents' rather pretentious generation
was pleased with both artists and their careers, because
each of them was gracious and deferential to their public in performance.

Subject: RE: Burl Ives the musician ?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 12:36 PM

Abaco Queen in Boston Harbor -1957

He was an occasional neighbor; and a delightful man and I never once saw him bring out the guitar just for "the fun of it."

But I'm almost certain he was a card carrying American Federation of Musicians member because he played Bahamian venues on occasion and the Bahamas were functionally the same as upscale New York or Vegas nightclubs and ballrooms.

Both vocalists and instrumentalists are considered musicians when they're at work.

Subject: RE: Burl Ives the musician ?
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 07:20 PM

I have been a Burl Ives fan since I was about eight and could not wait to hear Big Rock Candy Mountain on the radio. Cyril Tawney was an Ives fanatic. If you listen to Fare thee well my Honey, and then Grey Funnel line you'll see what I mean. The Oggie man is pure Burl Ives delivery, and why not. I have learned a great deal about approach to Folk Songs from Burl Ives. Basic guitar then a well thought out link between verses. If you trace Ives back to his traditional roots you will be led to listen to the likes of Mrs. Texas Gladden, and Bradley Kincaid. Ives version of the Devils nine questions comes from Mrs. Gladden, and Barbara Allen from Kincaid You will find a young(ish) Burl Ives singing on the 1946 Western 'Smokie'. It's a kids film I think.
By the way he was thrown into jail for singing the Foggy Dew, considered to be an obscene song in the 1930's. I'm not into any of the modern disrespect that has reared it's head due to his self preservation in the McCarthy era. To me he was one of the great originals, and I still listen regularly to the Lomax recordings he made in the 1940's.

Subject: RE: Burl Ives the musician ?
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Apr 19 - 02:19 AM

Roy Harris who was a skilled performer was also an ives fan, ives was a skilled performer who knew how to work a live audiences that is the difference between a technician and a musician ives, sang with felling his accompaniments never detracted from his singing.
the american establishment were to blame for forcing ives to testify during the mccarthy era, ives only cooperated out of self preservation.the same american establishment tried to kill paul robesons career , by not allowing him out of the usa

Subject: RE: Burl Ives the musician ?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 17 Apr 19 - 07:32 AM

I saw Burl Ives when he toured the UK many years ago, he stood alone on the stage with 2 guitars for almost 2 hours, he was then in his 70s. absolutely brilliant night.

Dave H

Subject: RE: Burl Ives the musician ?
From: Deckman
Date: 17 Apr 19 - 09:34 AM

When I attended the private reception for him after his final public concert in Anacortes, Washington state, I enjoyed a marvelous moment with him. By then he was still quite ill and was being carefully supervised by his wife (nurse?). As the long reception line formed to thank him for his concert, his wife loudly announced that there was to be NO handshakes, as his hands were very sore. I happened to be in the restroom at that announcement, so I missed her rules.

As is my style, I made sure that I was the last person in line, knowing that I might have more time for a longer conversation. He remembered me from our many letters over the years. I'd also brought my copy of the first book he wrote in 1954" Tales of America." I handed it to him and asked him to sign it.

His wife grabbed it from my hand before he could reach it, yelling at me that I wasn't following her instructions. Burl grabbed it back from her hands, saying: "I haven't seen a copy of this book in decades." He started to thumb through it. I did the only thing I could think to do, which was to offer to give it him. He smiled at me, and said "No, it's yours, but let me sign it for you."

I still have that book. bob(deckman)nelson

Subject: RE: Burl Ives the musician ?
From: beachcomber
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 06:15 AM

OMG, I must have given a completely wrong impression of my regard for Burl Ives. My purpose was merely to ascertain how good a guitarist he actually was, not at all to try to suggest that he was IN ANY WAY lessened in importance by any deficiency that he may have had in that respect.
I too was first "turned on" to Folk Songs by his renditions of such songs as "The Fox" and "Frog went a courting" away back, listening to Radio, in the 1950s. This was long before I added an interest in Irish Traditional Music, although I was living in rural Ireland.
I would accept, gladly, that the beautiful and simple little guitar inter-verse "links" that were played on that Irish Song Album of his, were his own work, having read what you people have to say.
I rem seeing his (fairly posh) caravan parked in St.Stephen's Green, street side, just across the street from the Shelbourne Hotel, then Ireland's premier establishment. I also recall an motoring accident that he had somewhere in Co. Limerick, around that time, when his car overturned. I've often wondered if the after effects of that had hastened his end ?
And, who can forget his portrayal of the Hillbilly patriarch in "The Big Country" ???
I have a complete admiration for Burl Ives the Folk Singer, Writer and Actor and I have here with me, as I write, his autobiography "Wayfaring Stranger" in which it appears that the Banjo was his first instrument of choice - one in the eye for all the Banjo denigrators.

Subject: RE: Burl Ives the musician ?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 06:31 AM

I suppose that it is not appropriate to mention his appearances before McCarthy and the House UnAmerican Activities Committee at this juncture? It certainly made him unpopular in folk music circles at the time.

Subject: RE: Burl Ives the musician ?
From: beachcomber
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 06:51 AM

Vic, if you check in the addittional threads listed at the top of this one you will read about the facts of Ives' appearance before HUAC. It was not quite as damning as people liked to understand it.

Subject: RE: Burl Ives the musician ?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 07:37 AM

It was not quite as damning as people liked to understand it.

Well, that begs the question, "Which people?"

His Wikipedia reference (not always the most reliable, I'll admit) includes the following:-

... he cooperated with the House Un-American Activities Committee (HUAC) and agreed to testify, fearful of losing his source of income. Ives' statement to the HUAC ended his blacklisting, allowing him to continue acting in movies, but it also led to a bitter rift between Ives and many folk singers, including Pete Seeger, who accused Ives of naming names and betraying the cause of cultural and political freedom to save his own career....

I have heard many accounts of this nature from older folk singers, both British and American, dating back long before the internet came into being.

Subject: RE: Burl Ives the musician ?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 12:50 PM

"I suppose that it is not appropriate..."

*relevant

FTFY

Subject: RE: Burl Ives the musician ?
From: Deckman
Date: 20 Apr 19 - 08:00 AM

I think it's VERY EASY to sit on the fence and try to evaluate events that happened before you were there. Burl Ives' appearance before HUAC was, and remains, very controversial. I wasn't there and I never had a conversation with him about that.

As one of my musical teachers and a person whom I continue to admire, I can't add much to the discussion of his loyalty concerns. But, unless you were alive then and can speak with authority of the 'temper of those times', I choose to continue to respect his musicianship his lifelong efforts to preserve a knowledge and respect for our folk music. bob(deckman)nelson

Subject: RE: Burl Ives the musician ?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 21 Apr 19 - 04:55 AM

I have always remembered his stunning performance as Big Daddy in Cat On A Hot Tin Roof. Brilliant. He could sure act.

Subject: RE: Burl Ives the musician ?
From: GUEST,Ives admirer passing through
Date: 21 Apr 19 - 01:08 PM

Burl Ives was a legend for a reason - he sold tons of records when you still had to be at least modestly talented to get a legitimate contract. He was a great singer and fine accompanist for himself on guitar and banjo.

FWIW, he and Pete Seeger reconciled near the end of Ives' life, and sang together a few times then.

I am quite sure that Ives regretted his testimony for the effect it had, his patriotic sense of duty notwithstanding.

Subject: RE: Burl Ives the musician ?
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 21 Apr 19 - 02:31 PM

I admit my ignorance of this subject, but I did enjoy Burl Ives back in the late fifties....."Big Rock Candy mountain" etc. When Mr Ives testified to the committee did he tell the truth?
He seems to be despised by many here for being anti-communist, but I doubt if many now would defend that political ideology?

Subject: RE: Burl Ives the musician ?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Apr 19 - 04:02 PM

Of course Josh White also had that trouble with HUAC.

tough shitty times. we shouldn't judge people too harshly - particularly when we've never faced anything similar.

Subject: RE: Burl Ives the musician ?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 21 Apr 19 - 07:15 PM

We had records. I was surprised to see him in film, later...

Subject: RE: Burl Ives the musician ?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 22 Apr 19 - 01:37 PM

There are some of us who lived through those dark times. Pete forgave Burl.
The red-baiting that goes on now is reminiscent of the McCarthyism of the 50's.
If it weren't for the Left, there would have been no folk music revival. I give Pete
credit for being a one-man PR campaigner for folk music and Burl for being one of the first to popularize folk songs.

Burl studied lieder with a Metropolitan Opera coach. I think he mentions it in "Wayfaring Stranger".

Subject: RE: Burl Ives the musician ?
From: GUEST,Akenaton
Date: 22 Apr 19 - 02:07 PM

Folk music was there before politics Frank.

Subject: RE: Burl Ives the musician ?
From: beachcomber
Date: 22 Apr 19 - 06:39 PM

Stringsinger, Burl Ives does indeed mention, in WAFARING STRANGER, that he studied Lieder before turning to busking for a living, initially.

Subject: RE: Burl Ives the musician ?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Apr 19 - 07:48 PM

He doesn't sound like a Lieder singer, which is all to his credit as far as i'm concerned.

Subject: RE: Burl Ives the musician ?
From: keberoxu
Date: 23 Apr 19 - 02:42 PM

The Disney film was a family-friendly feature film from 1963
called Summer Magic,
about rural Maine,
and Burl Ives's character role was a real character.

I still remember him growling to his busybody wife:

"Mariah, yer pot's boilin' over."

Subject: RE: Burl Ives the musician ?
From: GUEST,Don Meixner
Date: 23 Apr 19 - 03:01 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5bUUq_pans



I recall a PBS performance at The Chautauqua that was filled with his guitar playing. Very competent.

Don Meixner

Subject: RE: Burl Ives the musician ?
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 23 May 19 - 05:36 PM

Interestingly, the UK folklore 'revivalist' A L Lloyd once praised Burl Ives as a real folk performer, an excellent example of the US's tradition, inherited, he thought, via Ives' Kentucky-born mother.

This is discussed in a piece by E David Gregory called "Starting Over: A. L. Lloyd and the Search for a New Folk Music, 1945-49"

You can find this online if you are interested. Not sure that Lloyd discussed his musicianship though.

Subject: RE: Burl Ives the musician ?
From: beachcomber
Date: 26 May 19 - 02:27 PM

Thanks Don, I was hoping , from the first post, that somebody would say that !

Subject: RE: Burl Ives the musician ?
From: beachcomber
Date: 27 May 19 - 09:03 AM

Mr Meixner please ! That link that you posted did not make a "Blue Clicky" . Could you possibly re-do it ??

Subject: RE: Burl Ives the musician ?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 27 May 19 - 09:21 AM

'That link that you posted did not make a "Blue Clicky" . Could you possibly re-do it ??'

Seriously? Cut and paste. That aside, in my browser I can still right-click and open in another tab/window without it turned into a hyperlink proper. In any way, it's easy to follow as is.

Subject: RE: Burl Ives the musician ?
From: Stanron
Date: 27 May 19 - 12:19 PM

here you are

link to youtube

The other way is to copy the web address and paste it into a new browser window. I would do this by running my mouse over the web address so that it is highlighted and then copy it by pressing Ctrl + C. I'd open a new browser window and click in the address area and paste the link by pressing Ctrl + P. Pressing Enter activates the address. You can also find Copy and Paste in the Edit menu if your browser displays the menu bar.

Subject: RE: Burl Ives the musician ?
From: beachcomber
Date: 27 May 19 - 03:41 PM

Many thanks Stanron, I must also apologise to Guest Laban for my lack of expertise with my PC. I have , you see, only just recently mastered that technical wonder of my era, the Abacus ! :-)

Subject: RE: Burl Ives the musician ?
From: GUEST,Lonesome Train Cantata
Date: 28 May 19 - 05:48 PM

One of Burl ives' earliest recordings was for a set of 78rpm records entitled The Lonesome Train Cantata. The train was the one that toured the US carrying Lincoln's coffin after his assassination.

http://www.mediafire.com/folder/a8p6lbj1r653e/The_Lonesome_Train_Cantata

This was a ballad opera / cantata long before Ewan MacColl's Radio Ballads.

https://research.gold.ac.uk/11330/1/The%20Lonesome%20Train%20%28Norman%20Corwin%29_%20Review%202.pdf

====

Subject: RE: Burl Ives the musician ?
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 30 May 19 - 08:02 PM

In case you missed this;

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Widdicome Fair - Peter Who?
From: GUEST,Bob Coltman Date: 28 May 19 - 12:25 PM

From some distant memory long ago I seem to have heard Burl Ives singing the chorus as:

Bill Brewer, Jan Stewer, Peter Gantry, Peter Gurney, Dan'l Whiddon, Harry Hawke, etc.

— that is, adding Peter Gantry, and jettisoning Peter Davy.

Not that Ol' Fuzzy-Chin (as the late E. C. Ball used to call Ives) was in any way scholarly or definitive, only that the variation seems worth noting.

Bob

Subject: RE: Burl Ives the musician ?
From: beachcomber
Date: 31 May 19 - 08:36 AM

Just how far back does the song "Widdiecombe Fair" date ? that Ives had an alternative lyric, or did he just insert the name of some character known to him, maybe ?

In similar vein, I have a memory of a BURL IVES Hour (or maybe half hour or even a quarter hour) on Radio Luxemburg way back in the nineteen fifties when a record (?) of him singing hymns with a chorus of Korean (?) children was played, I particularly remember one that must have been called GOLDEN BELLS (when they ring those...) It was very beautiful. I have often searched, in vain, for it.

Subject: RE: Burl Ives the musician ?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 02 Jun 19 - 11:42 AM

Burl was a singer par-excellence. He sang Schuber Leider and studied with a Metropolitan Opera singing coach. His singing to sparse guitar won him standing ovations and many encores. He was a central figure in the popularization of the folk revival. He made you realize that to sing folk songs you don't have to be an instrumental virtuoso on guitar. Simple is better. Less is more. Yes, he was very much a musician.

Subject: RE: Burl Ives the musician ?
From: beachcomber
Date: 02 Jun 19 - 05:18 PM

Thanks Stringsinger, Your opinion has to be respected.

Subject: RE: Burl Ives the musician ?
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 02 Jun 19 - 07:27 PM

Take a look at Burl Ives in 1946. It's a lesson in control and confidence in vocal delivery.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tr40lRHDaCo

Subject: RE: Burl Ives the musician ?
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 02 Jun 19 - 07:44 PM

Once again 1945/46. Ives at his best in my opinion

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vo13knUSesA

Subject: RE: Burl Ives the musician ?
From: beachcomber
Date: 04 Jun 19 - 06:46 AM

Nick, I wonder if you have his album of Irish Songs ?? and if so could you post a link please, somehow ???
I borrowed it from a friend , many years ago and taped it on a small Reel to Reel recorder, the tape is no longer worth listening to , apart from the memories it evokes.
That old LP that you posted brought many others back I can tell you.

Subject: RE: Burl Ives the musician ?
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 04 Jun 19 - 09:22 AM

There should be 14 songs here for you. Use the freemake video converter to download them as Mp3 then burn them on to a CD
kind regards
Nick

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiLBLtUdMNE&list=OLAK5uy_kjm4aSgP5wJK1G4i7Jzocr2L0Q4QUJ_F0

Subject: RE: Burl Ives the musician (instrumentalist)?
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 07 Jun 19 - 02:04 AM

Did that work for you Beachcomber?

Subject: RE: Burl Ives the musician (instrumentalist)?
From: GUEST,keberoxu
Date: 07 Jun 19 - 02:52 PM

Beachcomber, don't feel alone.
I don't cut and paste myself -- I have yet to learn how.
All my formal education is from the years
BC, that's Before Computers.
When I had to submit a paper to a university course,
I used a typewriter.

My knowledge about computers and the internet
has been picked up on the fly,
from librarians and
workers at the rental place
formerly called Kinko's, now Fedex Office (for printing).
Suffice to say that there is a LOT that I have yet to learn.
(Neither word processor nor personal computer are in my home.)


My fellow Mudcatters,
it startles and somewhat disappoints me
that specific questions by Beachcomber
have gone without direct answers.

I was just trying to make blue clicky links
but the message-preview process got so sticky for me
that I will have to cool myself down
and try again after I feel calmer.

My incompetence aside,
Beachcomber,
yes, those Burl Ives recordings do exist.

"Songs of Ireland" was recorded for Decca in 1958.
"Sunshine in my Soul,"
which includes
"When They Ring Those Golden Bells,"
was recorded for Decca in the early 1960's.

As for the World Vision Korean Orphans' Choir,
not only can you find the choir itself on Wikipedia,
but Wikipedia has a page
just for
the album that Burl Ives recorded with them.

Subject: RE: Burl Ives the musician (instrumentalist)?
From: beachcomber
Date: 08 Jun 19 - 07:17 AM

Nick, my darlin' buoy ! [To use Burl's version of an Irish accent :-)]

It did indeed work and while I have not, as yet, managed to download and re-record it , I am awaiting a visit from a younger member of the family who should have the tech expertise. I cannot thank you enough, meanwhile.
It was wonderful to hear the singing and guitar playing so clearly and memorably. The original LP that I had borrowed , many years ago had already been somewhat over worked and the consequent hiss and crackle, with more than a few "jumps" , I now realise, did only faint justice to Burl Ives.
I recall a certain resentment back then , on hearing some of the lyrics but, on mature reflection , it is Burl's delightful music and singing that give me most satisfaction and pleasure. His versions of MAID OF THE SWEET BROWN KNOWE and COME BACK PADDY REILLY are by far the best that I have heard. I wonder what year the LP was first issued because, it strikes me that his versions of some of the songs must predate such as THE CLANCY BROS. , and DUBLINERS et al. ?

Subject: RE: Burl Ives the musician (instrumentalist)?
From: beachcomber
Date: 08 Jun 19 - 07:27 AM

Oh, much thanks also to you Keberoxu. You have answered my question as to the issue date of the SONGS OF IRELAND LP. Ives sang many of the songs in a tempo that I was more used to hearing , emanating from the public houses of the village where I lived C.1950s, when people gathered for various reasons, Weddings, Christenings or even funerals.
The up-tempo versions of the later Irish folk groups of the late 50s and on, seemed rather "Americanised" to me when I first heard them but, of course, became the popular style soon after.
Thanks again to all, including "Lonesome Train Cantata"

Subject: RE: Burl Ives the musician (instrumentalist)?
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 08 Jun 19 - 02:22 PM

Why not try Burl Ives excellent performance at the Royal Festival Hall. All the favourites plus some interesting traditional songs. There is also a CD with each track introduced called 'The Gypsys Wedding Day' Great stuff.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAo9N_on9ow

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvzOg37_NM0

one track should lead on to another from the CD
kind regards
Nick