BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019

Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: David C. Carter
Date: 22 Apr 19 - 01:16 PM

French television Saturday,said that specialists are looking at good      

solid oak trees.Looks like they are going for a similar structure as

before.

Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Apr 19 - 12:19 PM

Joe, you go for the rococo but our lady is gothic.

Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: leeneia
Date: 20 Apr 19 - 05:08 PM

Thanks for the link, Bonnie. That's an intelligent article.

I hope the restoration provides roof supports not made of wood.

I wonder about the lead in the roof. Where did it go? Are people at risk?

Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Apr 19 - 11:56 AM

It always seemed to me that the bell towers should have had spires. Should the renovation have spires, or should they remain flat?

Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Apr 19 - 11:09 AM

I've got a tarpaulin in the garage, somwhere....

Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Apr 19 - 09:32 AM

"Between 1789 to around 1793 or 1794, The Cathedral was repeatedly pillaged and much of the decor and original medieval statuary was destroyed."
Well now I don't feel the current loss was so bad. However...
If a temporary roof does not go up Quickly there will be further damage.

Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 20 Apr 19 - 05:05 AM

The online version of Smithsonian Magazine has an interesting piece on the Notre Dame fire. (BTW, that's one of the best e-newsletters out there, covering a wide range of topics in history/biography/science/younameit. If you don't subscribe, it's free, and well worth consideration.) Anyway:

Things We’ve Learned in the Aftermath of the Notre-Dame Fire

Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Mrrzy
Date: 19 Apr 19 - 05:13 PM

Also Passover. If there was a Jesus, he was a jew.

Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Apr 19 - 03:12 PM

Bonz - careful.. you don't want to make christians cross...

[how come we only get crap jokes at xmas.. why not easter crackers...???]

Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 19 Apr 19 - 02:15 PM

He'd stick his arms out straight and say "what a way to spend Easter"!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Apr 19 - 10:40 AM

Seeing as it's annual Jesus weekend..
what'd he have to say about these big expensive buildings in tribute to his dad...???

Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Mrrzy
Date: 19 Apr 19 - 10:31 AM

The bees survived!

Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Apr 19 - 05:40 AM

Copy cat criminal in NYC: https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/salvadorhernandez/st-patricks-cathedral-nyc-gasoline-fire-notre-dame

Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 19 Apr 19 - 05:30 AM

It's a nice place to photograph and so must be rebuilt.

Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 19 Apr 19 - 04:08 AM

Thats still 650 million of their own money donated towards the rebuilding. I think they should be given credit for this.

Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Monique
Date: 19 Apr 19 - 03:38 AM

The cathedrals belong to the state and the churches to the towns.
"Under the 1905 law on the separation of Church and State, Notre-Dame de Paris is one of 70 churches in Paris built before that year which are owned by the French state. While the building itself is owned by the state, the Catholic Church is the designated beneficiary, having the exclusive right to use it for religious purposes in perpetuity. The archdiocese is responsible for paying the employees, for security, heating and cleaning, and for ensuring that the cathedral is open free to visitors. The archdiocese does not receive subsidies from the French state" -Wiki.

Which means it'll be rebuilt with our taxes.

Besides, "Private actors benefit from a corporate tax reduction (IS) increased to 60% of the amount of the donation made. And this, within the limit of 0.5% of the turnover excluding tax of the company.
A practice that allows them to largely reduce their taxation both in terms of the amount and in the long term (organizations that can defer this tax credit for 5 years).
800 million donations = 150 million less in the coffers of the State.
Faced with this start of controversy, the Pinault family has announced that it has renounced its tax reduction. It's the only donor to have done it for the moment." from there (Google translated, it's too early for me to translate all that, I'm not a morning person!)

Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 07:47 PM

It's a real advantage to the Catholic Church, that all French churches built before 1905, are property of the state. An old building like Notre-Dame is a huge financial burden.
But it does have huge touristic value, so maybe it's right that the state has to shoulder the burden (I believe the church does pay for some maintenance).
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 04:55 PM

Hearing French people speak of Notre Dame history has been interesting. When Napolean was crowned Emporer there, the ceremony was supposedly cut short because of the overwhelming smell of garbage in the Cathedral.
Sabotage or sign of the times?

Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 02:48 PM

The spire had 2 small bells. Our lady has been castrated by fire

Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: keberoxu
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 02:43 PM

Everybody's getting in the act

Disney CEO Bob Iger

Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 10:09 AM

One of my favourite scenes in the (magnificent) Charles Laughton film version of Hunchback is when he calls out the names of the bells. That was the first time I discovered that they even had names. Can't remember in what context this takes place - perhaps when he is explaining his deafness to (?)Esmeralda, and consequently also to us. It's one of the immortal world-class performances.

Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 09:22 AM

I thought Redwall having names for their bells was cute, I didn't know it was normal. Thanks for that bells post.

The spire had no bells, I thought.

Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Monique
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 06:06 AM

The comment does read "The spire is no longer a bell tower" though. I have no idea of which is the spire with bells shown in the photo.

Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 05:48 AM

So there were bells in the the spire.

Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Monique
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 03:59 AM

Joe, those are the closest shots of the spire I could find.

Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Mr Red
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 03:12 AM

Churches for non religious-believers...

Something with music and singing? A little bread? A little wine? And communal prayers that will put all the world to rights?
Sounds like Folk Clubs, Folk Festivals, Sessions, Singarouns to me!

Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Mr Red
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 03:04 AM

if the church buildings and land were all sold, and the money shared out among all the poor people,

It would be a one-off handout however much they got. And the ensuing years there would be poverty still.

The one thing gigantic edifices give, apart from as a focus for pilgrims** is that it is a cash cow which in an ideal world would trickle down to the poor. But you dun gotta be an impoverished RC (other religions are available, term and conditions apply).

**I always viewed pilgrims as tourists with a different agenda.

Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 01:05 AM

All the elements and clues for a terrific planned and controlled fire conspiracy theory
are present and correct...

What a lucky break for a beleaguered President needing to reunite a divided nation...
..and save a few francs on a cheap rebuild rather than an expensive restoration...

..sshhh...

Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 01:01 AM

I believe that the statues from the spire had been removed for the renovation, and are stored in a safe place. The rooster from the top of the spire was recovered from a nearby street, but it looked pretty battered in the photo I saw.
I like the fact that all the bells have names.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Apr 19 - 08:00 PM

No bells in the spire- just relics and statues

The cathedral's flèche (or spire), which was destroyed in the April 2019 fire,[60] was located over the transept and altar. The original spire was constructed in the 13th century, probably between 1220 and 1230. It was battered, weakened and bent by the wind over five centuries, and finally was removed in 1786. During the 19th-century restoration, Eugène Viollet-le-Duc decided to recreate it, making a new version of oak covered with lead. The entire spire weighed 750 tons.

Following Viollet-le-Duc's plans, the spire was surrounded by copper statues of the twelve Apostles, in four groups of three, one group at each point of the compass. Each of the four groups were preceded by an animal symbolising one of the four evangelists: a steer for Saint Luke, a lion for Saint Mark, an eagle for Saint John and an angel for Saint Matthew. Just days prior to the spire's collapse, all of the statues were removed for restoration.[61] While in place, they had faced outwards towards Paris, except one; the statue of Saint Thomas, the patron saint of architects, which faced the spire, and had the features of Viollet-le-Duc.

The rooster at the summit of the spire contained three relics: a tiny piece of the Crown of Thorns, located in the treasury of the Cathedral; and relics of Denis and Saint Genevieve, patron saints of Paris. They were placed there in 1935 by the Archibishop Jean Verdier, to protect the congregation from lightning or other harm.

Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Apr 19 - 07:58 PM

Bells of Notre Dame de Paris

The cathedral has 10 bells, the bourdon called Emmanuel, which is tuned to F sharp, has been an accompaniment to some of the most major events in the history of France ever since it was first cast, such as for the Te Deum for the coronation of French kings along with major events like the visit of the Pope, and others to mark the end of conflicts including World War I and World War II. It also rings in times of sorrow and drama to unite believers at the Notre-Dame Cathedral, like for the funerals of the French heads of state, massacres like such as the 11 September Twin Towers incident and it is reserved for the Cathedral's special occasions like Christmas, Easter, and Ascension. This particular bell was the masterpiece of the whole group of bells that weighs in at 13 tons, and fortunately, it was saved from the devastation that arose during the French Revolution. According to bell ringers and musicians, it is still one of the most beautiful sound vessels and one of the most remarkable in Europe. The bell dates from the 15th century and was recast in 1681 upon the request of King Louis XIV who named it the Emmanuel Bell.

There were also four bells that replaced those destroyed in the French Revolution. Placed at the top of the North Tower in 1856, these ring daily for basic services, the Angelus and the chiming of the hours. The first of these bells, named Angélique-Françoise, weighs in at 1,915kg and is tuned to C sharp; the next bell is named Antoinette-Charlotte, weighing in at 1,335kg and tuned to D sharp. Then there is the bell named Jacinthe-Jeanne weighing in at 925kg tuned to F and the fourth bell named Denise-David weighs 767kg and just like the Grand Bell Emmanuel, it is tuned to F sharp. A few years later, in 1867, a carillon of three bells in the spire with two chimes that linked to the monumental clock were put in place and another three bells were positioned in the actual structure of the Notre-Dame Cathedral itself, so that they could be heard inside. However, unfortunately, these are at present mute, although a project is currently being looked at, and hopefully will be put into place, in order to restore the Carillon to its former glory. The four bells that were put in place in 1856 are now stored, as of February 2012.

About a year later, a new set of eight bells for the North Tower of Notre-Dame Cathedral was being produced, along with a Grand Bell for the South Tower, just as there were originally before most were destroyed during the French Revolution. The construction of bells is one of accuracy and precision to obtain the desired sound and the work has been entrusted to two separate companies, one in France for the eight bells and one in Belgium for the Grand Bell. Each of the new bells is named with names that have been chosen to pay tribute to saints and others who have shaped the life of Paris and the Notre-Dame Cathedral.

Emmanuel is accompanied by another large bell in the south tower called Marie. At six tonnes and playing a G Sharp, Marie is the second largest bell in the cathedral. Marie is also called a Little Bourdon (petite bourdon) or a drone bell because it is located alongside Emmanuel in the south tower. Built in a foundry in The Netherlands, it has engravings as a most distinctive feature, something which is different compared to the other bells. The phrases “Je vous salue Marie,” in French, and “Via viatores quaerit,” in Latin, which mean ”Hail Mary” (where the bell gets its name from the Virgin Mary) and ”The way is looking for travellers”. Below the phrase appears an image of the Baby Jesus and his parents surrounded by stars and a relief with the Adoration of the Magi. It is in charge of the Small Solennel, which is similar to the Great Solennel except that the ringing peal starts with the bourdon and the eight bells in the north tower. This ring is heard on only 1 January (New Year's Day) at the stroke of midnight and it replaces Emmanuel for international events. Like Emmanuel, the bells are used to mark specific moments such as the arrival at the Cathedral of the body of the deceased Archbishop of Paris.

In the North Tower, there are eight bells varying in size from largest to smallest. Gabriel is the largest bell there; it weighs four tons and plays an A sharp. It is named after St. Gabriel, who announced the birth of Jesus to the Virgin Mary. Built in a bell foundry outside Paris in 2013, it also chimes the hour through the day. Like Emmanuel and Marie, Gabriel is used to mark specific events. It is used mainly for masses on Sundays in ordinary times and some solemnities falling during the week in the Plenum North. It shows 40 circular lines representing the 40 days Jesus spent in the desert and the 40 years of Moses' crossing the Sinai.

Anne-Geneviève is the second largest bell in the North Tower and the fourth largest bell in the cathedral. Named after two saints: St. Anne, Mary’s mother, and St. Geneviève the patron saint of Paris, it plays a B and it weighs three tons. It has three circular lines that represent the Holy Trinity and three theological virtues. Like Emmanuel, Marie and Gabriel, Anne-Genevieve is used to mark specific moments such as the opening of the doors to the Palm Sunday mass or the body of the deceased Archbishop of Paris. Also it is the only bell that does not participate in a chime called the Angelus Domini, which happens in the summer at 8am, noon and 8pm (or 9am, noon and 9pm).

Denis is the third largest bell in the North Tower and fifth largest bell in the cathedral. It is named after St. Denis, the martyr who was also the first bishop of Paris around the year 250; it weighs 2 tons and plays a C sharp. This bell includes the third phrase of the Angelus, “Behold the handmaid of the Lord”. There are also seven circular lines representing the gifts of the Holy Spirit and the seven Sacraments.

Marcel is the fourth largest bell in the North Tower and sixth largest bell in the cathedral. It is named after the 9th bishop of Paris [fr]. It plays a D sharp and weighs 1.9 tons. It is named after Saint Marcel, the ninth bishop of Paris, known for his tireless service to the poor and sick in the fifth century. The bell that bears his name as a tribute has engraved upon it the fourth sentence of the Angelus, “Be it done unto me according to Thy word”.

Étienne is the fifth largest bell in the North Tower and seventh largest bell in the cathedral. It is named after St. Stephan in English, but citizens of Paris call it by its French equivalent Étienne. It plays a E sharp and it weighs 1.5 tons. Its most prominent features are that there was a gold stripe slightly above the nameplate.

Benoît-Joseph is the sixth largest bell in the North Tower and eighth largest bell in the cathedral. Just like Anne-Geneviève, it is named after two saints. Benoît is in honor of Pope Benedict XVI of Vatican City, while Joseph in honor of Joseph Ratzinger which is his real name (2005–2013). It plays an F and weighs 1.3 tons. It has two silver stripes above the skirt and one silver stripe above the nameplate. This bell is used for weddings and sometimes chimes the hour replacing Gabriel, most likely on a chime called the Ave Maria.

Maurice is the seventh largest bell in the North Tower and second smallest in the cathedral. It is named after Maurice de Sully, the bishop of Paris who laid the first stone, in 1163, for the construction of the Cathedral. It includes the inscription, “Pray for us, Holy Mother of God". It plays a G sharp and weighs one ton. It has two gray stripes below the nameplate. This bell is used for weddings.

Jean Marie is the smallest bell of the cathedral. Unlike Benoît-Joseph and Anne-Geneviève which have two names, it is named after Cardinal Jean-Marie Lustiger, Paris' bishop from 1981 until 2005, and on it is engraved the eighth and last sentence of the Angelus: “that we might be made worthy of the promises of Christ”. It plays an A sharp and weighs 0.780 tons. It has a small gray stripe above the skirt. This bell is also used for weddings.

Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Apr 19 - 07:44 PM

I've always admired the spire that was destroyed in this week's fire. I had assumed it was part of the original structure, but it wasn't. It was built on the 19th century of oak covered with lead, to replace a 500-yr-old spire that was in disrepair.
I wonder what the replacement will be - probably not oak and lead.
Anybody know where I can find good close-up pictures of the spire? The one at Wikipedia is quite good, but I'd like even more detail. Is that a bell inside the spire?
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Apr 19 - 12:07 PM

Now lets see, we could save the Earth/Climate, or build the church...hmmm

SAVE THE CHURCH

why? because thats what all the pre historic ruins look like they did.

Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Apr 19 - 12:03 PM

The mini series was quite a good historical romp...

Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Mrrzy
Date: 17 Apr 19 - 11:59 AM

I thought of Pilllars of the Earth too.

Still so, so sad.

Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Apr 19 - 11:59 AM

Abu Sidal (Aswan Statues), London Bridge, Queen Mary, Gallitzin Castle - all have been moved from thier original location.
I am looking forward to the new Amazon Notre Dame Cathedral relocated to the beautiful shores of New Jersey over looking the NYC skyline.

Leave it to Bezos, were all bezos on this bus, if you want it done right.

With over a billion Euros 'pledged' (worth a cup of coffee) to rebuild the church there are protests in Paris saying the money should go to the poor. Others are saying the charity from billionairs
could go to better use.

So enter the lawyers, politicians, the super wealthy and the poor all bckering while the firemen say "you better cover the roof and quick! The windows are at imminent risk from rain, wind and collapse.

Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Apr 19 - 08:00 AM

These next two tunes have nicer videos of ND
hot time in the ol church tonight

Subject: RE: When Notre Dame Cathedral was brand new
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Apr 19 - 07:52 AM

Here is a little tune sung at Notre Dame when the church was brand NEW. all the ends of the earth

the lyrics are not as tame as the tune

Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 17 Apr 19 - 04:57 AM

It's a pity that the 'crown of thorns', the 'fragment of the true cross' and other such nonsense couldn't have gone up in the flames. 'Relics' that surfaced in the 11th and 12th centuries, venerated today as having special powers, give religion a bad name.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: EBarnacle
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 11:34 PM

The word that seems common to most of the reports I have heard and seen is "disfigured." It seems appropriate for all of its dark connotations.

Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 11:22 PM

All this reminds me of the Pillars of the Earth trilogy by Ken Follett. It's a lot of pages but a great read, and you'll have a good understanding of cathedrals by the time you finish. The religious value of a cathedral is only one aspect. It can and should be the profound self-expression of a community. Notre-Dame is certainly that for Paris.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: keberoxu
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 08:39 PM

I was interested that
the fire department had its own chaplain,
who had to insist that they admit him
INSIDE the burning church.
He wanted to rescue
the Blessed Sacrament implements
and the relics.

Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 08:08 PM

The only tid bit of Notre Dame news that was interesting was about two fire alarms. The first sent 'someone' to invesigate but nothing was found. Response to the second alarm discovered a moderate fire in progress. The firemen took 30 minutes to arrive.

Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 08:07 PM

Resurrexit sicit dixit.

Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Mossback
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 06:12 PM

Poor boy, he's bound to die.

Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: keberoxu
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 05:44 PM

Notre Dame, in the state of Indiana,
is famous for somebody else as well.
Actually two different schools happily claim credit for this person.
The other school is in Missouri:
the medical school at Saint Louis University.

He had to resign from the US Navy, years later,
for "conduct unbecoming." Recognize him yet?

It took him two different schools, as well as the Navy's corpsman program,
to make a medical doctor out of him,
because as a very young many he was a lousy student.

Doctor Tom Dooley died at the age of 34.
There is a statue of him at one of the two schools,
I'm guessing it's Notre Dame and not Saint Louis University.

After making a medical doctor and a serviceman out of him,
the military rewarded him -- he was still young, remember --
by requiring him to be the figurehead
of their propaganda campaign against Ho Chi Minh in Vietnam.

This was in the 1950's, with Eisenhower in office;
the US hawks badly wanted Eisenhower to get the war underway.

If this sounds complex, it is, and so was he.
He's worth a whole thread in himself, is Dr. Tom Dooley.

Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Jack Campin
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 04:50 PM

I knew there was a university called Notre Dame in the US - but my only link with it was reading articles in the Notre Dame Journal of Formal Logic, which was pretty good at the time. It's pretty sick that an academic institution should end up being famous for footballers (presumably a gang of overpaid rapists).

Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 04:24 PM

I know, I'm just teasing keboroxu.
Anyway I'd hate to think of an entire University and football team on fire.

Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Mossback
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 04:13 PM

Vis a vis the Newsweek article and for bobad's benefit:

Black churches are being desecrated across the United States and we DO know why.

NB: This is NOT a conspiracy theory.

Subject: RE: BS: Notre Dame Cathedral is on fire - April 2019
From: Mrrzy
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 03:13 PM

And I, diehard [haha] atheist, would have joined in the hymns if I'd known the words.