Should women sing chanties

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: olddude
Date: 29 Apr 19 - 06:25 PM

Women can do anything they want and usually five times better than us men

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 29 Apr 19 - 03:12 PM

If modern-day fishermen can sing chanties and earn a million quid contract with it, then anybody can.

Beam me up, Scotty!

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 29 Apr 19 - 02:46 PM

You don't need to advertise for a "lady folksinger" - just ask for a folksinger. You don't need to change it to "Josephine" - Jo will do. The songs that aren't gendered don't need to be gendered now for women to participate.

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 29 Apr 19 - 01:06 PM

A new way to collect chanties ...haul away Josephine.

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 29 Apr 19 - 01:02 PM

I'd be interested in meeting the first man who said that to Mary Read or Anne Bonny. LOL.

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Apr 19 - 12:30 PM

Wanted
lady folksinger to haul away Joe, when required

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Apr 19 - 12:20 PM

hmmm.. shanties in large crewed intergalactic star ships...

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Apr 19 - 12:16 PM

Jeri - this is how 'Benign indifference' works for me..

I don't care what other folks do
as long as it's within reason and mostly legal,
and they don't restrict or harm others...

In a perfect post-feminist society,
folks should be able to do mixed gender, men or female only activities
as freely as they want, with whom they want...
It shouldn't bother anyone...

I've been hoping for that for over 40 years,
but obviously we aint got there yet.
Society is still too immature...

I've also been hoping for religions to pack up and disapear...

Just shows the extent of the power of hope, whatever "Star Wars" says...

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: Jeri
Date: 29 Apr 19 - 12:01 PM

In a given case, gender dimension might be irrelevant or of low importance, yes.But to think about is not such a ridiculous thing!

"Gender Dimensionality as Applied to the Vocalization of Task Coordination on Ocean-Going Vessels" - there's your paper's title.

Which is what we're arguing about. Not the historically constructed gender dimensions (I'm thinking you should put the Thesaurus down and walk away, because your word choices are actually obfuscating the thing that you've identified as the issue, but I digress), which I'm reading as "these songs used to be sung only by men". Yes, it's about gender, but it's about gender because that's the ONLY factor the OP focused on. It's not the only bit of ex-status quo that's changed. It's conveniently, the one change that gives men, in general, license to sing.

And PFR, I applaud your non-discriminatorical apathy.

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 29 Apr 19 - 11:39 AM

But I think it's disingenuous and anti-intellectual to ignore historically constructed gender dimensions. In a given case, gender dimension might be irrelevant or of low importance, yes. But to think about is not such a ridiculous thing! Please don't caricature the topic by bringing in silly non-issues.

So keeping those old barriers in place is your "intellectual" answer to this question?

Join us in the twenty-first century, Gibb, you'll find women doing lots of things they weren't doing as much in the era of sea chanteys. And let me suggest that the sophisticated response to women singing chanteys is to not wince and apply a mental asterisk *used to be sung by men when you hear such a performance.

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Apr 19 - 11:21 AM

"To immediately dismiss all discussion and simply proclaim that everybody may perform every thing...
I get it. It's your value: equality. Great, I believe in equality, too."

I'm making no big deal about equality..
My personal position is sheer indiffence..
I don't care who sings what...

Neither do I care why some others are bothered so much about keeping it men only...

There are far more important things in life to be concerned with...

If a singer engages my attention, I'll listen..
and it's enjoyable... that makes life a tiny bit more bearable for a few short moments...

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: Jeri
Date: 29 Apr 19 - 11:21 AM

I was focusing on what Gibb was focusing on. And "sea-chanteys; i.e., work songs sung on board ships" aren't typically sung as work songs on board ships. Maybe there are people who do that, but most of us encounter the songs in other ways.

The main idea behind all of this who-should-sing-what stuff is that 1)things change, and 2)people resist change, 3)and then complain.

In this case, people don't sing work songs on ships like they used to, but the songs are good, and people like to sing. So the songs will continue, hopefully, with their history. After they why and the when and where are gone, what's left is who. I think THAT is why it's come down to gender.

Oh, and here's Norman Kennedy, Waulking

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Apr 19 - 11:07 AM

Ah yes the charm of thin reedy voices, or Kate Rusbyesque gasping about how hellish it is handling sail, punching canvas, heaving and hauling away and pumping like mad-persons, well it wouldn't be like mad-men would it? It lends so much to the song, you could almost taste the tang of the salt-spray in the air as another goffer comes washing over the sharply tilted deck.

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: Mrrzy
Date: 29 Apr 19 - 11:00 AM

I still fail to grok how this is even a question.

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: meself
Date: 29 Apr 19 - 10:43 AM

Oh, come on. While I do think Gibb has gone off-track a bit, he is clearly addressing the issue raised in the original post, which he did not write, and pointing out that in his mind much of the discussion has nothing to do with that issue.

I think what Gib has (uncharacteristically) missed is that other possibilities related to 'authenticity' have come up as analogies, rather than as part and parcel of the same issue. Furthermore, I feel he has gone a bit far with the issue of 'genre': until his post, it was clear that everyone who used the term 'chanty' in its various permutations was talking about 'sea-chanteys; i.e., work songs sung on board ships.

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: Jeri
Date: 29 Apr 19 - 10:21 AM

You focus on ONE thing that's not historically accurate. I wonder why it's gender, and not the purpose of shanties, the location where they're sung, and the reason they're sung. You go don't the list of things changed so the shanties can be sung, and you come up with gender.

I'm think it's the single thing the "He-Man Women Haters Club" can focus on that will let THEM keep singing.

We see you. (And we know whose problem it is.)

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 29 Apr 19 - 07:59 AM

"Women did use songs or chants when doing certain work,such as waulking,"

But waulking songs aren't chanties. It's an unrelated genre. So at best you're saying that there is a precedent for women singing a song applied to work... yet what if that is gendered work? ("Should men sing waulking songs?") And what does it have to do with chanties?

"should young children with no experience of hauling sails, working capstans or consuming a drop of Nelson’s Blood be singing such songs?"
Do you have some feeling that chanty singing is exclusive of children? Where does this strawman come from that someone needs to work a capstan to sing a chanty? "Said literally no one ever."

The OP never said anything about people needing to have done something to sing a genre of song. Yet respondents time and again take it to that theme. Do you guys have some anxiety about that? And isn't that a broader topic, on the lines of an idea that one earns the right or gains the ability to interpret a song based on experience?

This all is so far off from the actual question. Look, music making / singing tends to have a gender dimension. Historically and globally, for instance, men have dominated in the playing of instruments. Men tend to dominate public spaces of music-making as well. Cultures assign normative genders to genres, instruments, venues, etc. Performers may mark gender boundaries in the society through their performances in exclusive gender groups. Performers, by gender, communicate or reinforce gender roles in society.

In short, something can often be observed about gender in relation to music. To immediately dismiss all discussion and simply proclaim that everybody may perform every thing... I get it. It's your value: equality. Great, I believe in equality, too. But I think it's disingenuous and anti-intellectual to ignore historically constructed gender dimensions. In a given case, gender dimension might be irrelevant or of low importance, yes. But to think about is not such a ridiculous thing! Please don't caricature the topic by bringing in silly non-issues.

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: GUEST,Jerry
Date: 29 Apr 19 - 06:03 AM

I thought this thread had reached its end, but can I just say that the first shanties I ever sung were in primary school, and I don’t recall the girls in the class being excluded from those songs. That’s not quite true, because I was very good at miming whilst others sung in those days, but it also begs the question should young children with no experience of hauling sails, working capstans or consuming a drop of Nelson’s Blood be singing such songs?

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 29 Apr 19 - 05:50 AM

Women did use songs or chants when doing certain work,such as waulking,
a communal task which was used in the making of tweed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waulking_song.
Googling waulking songs will find youtube videos of women singing the songs whilst doing the work.

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 29 Apr 19 - 05:13 AM

I don't think the chanty genre —pre-folklorization — was particularly gendered as male.

Chanty can be recognized as a genre that spanned spaces, contexts, and applications. Only one of those spaces was the deck of the sailing ship. Only one of those applications was shipboard work. That particular context was dominated by male participants.

Women participated in singing chanties in other contexts. These included work applications, where the work was on land.

if you're limiting your view of chanties to at-sea labor, then I suggest that is influencing your perception of chanty singing being gendered as male. However, I think it's illogical to apply rules to a genre based on one narrow context of performance.

You'd be better off saying that songs sung in exclusively male spaces are gendered as male— which could also be questioned, but would make more sense than to let "chanties" stand as equivalent to "songs sung in exclusively male spaces."

For these reasons, I think many of the remarks in this thread have it backwards. They present the past/original as male-exclusive and then seek (or not) to rationalize how present can part from that. In reality, the past/original was not male-exclusive; it's later folkloric performers that project an idea of male-ness onto the genre.

I guess it stands to reason that if folkloric performers project male-ness onto genre, i.e. as one of its meaningful traits, then performance by women will disrupt that meaning. Some will respond, "Fine, let the meaning be disrupted," caring more for maintaining their gender-blindness. Some others will say, "Okay... let it be disrupted... but as long as you understand that you have changed the very thing. It's something else you're doing than what the thing really is."

It's up to the individual whether they deem male-ness as one of the meaningful traits that define chanty singing. What I am asserting is that during the pre-folklorized time, chanty-singing does not appear to have been gendered male in particular. Up to you whether you want to go on your personal perception (i.e. "I've always thought about it as X, due to Y...") or consider, more objectively, the meaningful traits of the genre among historical practitioners.

A far more pressing/relevant question for me would be: Should chanties be sung according to a fixed text?

However, I'd be curious to know whether and to what extent current performers might view their masculinity as something significantly meaningful to their engagement of the genre. Are you showing others your maleness when you perform? Are you getting in touch with your male identity? Are you building a male social space? etc. If it's just that you're male and your voice generally has a different timbre as a female's, then I don't think that makes the issue a gender one.

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 29 Apr 19 - 02:48 AM

Most women don't sing chanties - perhaps I'll hear a few more this weekend at Sweeps.

I shall look forward to looking up the recommended bands who do. Thanks for that.

While reading the comments a very silly thought came into my head.
Life would have been so much better if the RN did sing chanties, and in a conflict the winner could have been decided by a sing off - rather than a shoot out. That would have saved more than hedgehogs.
FloraG

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: Iains
Date: 28 Apr 19 - 03:19 AM

Hedgehogs would probably be safer line dancing rather than morris dancing-less chance of painful contact, and a Do-si-do would be out of the question

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Apr 19 - 09:26 PM

I don't think hedgehogs should encouraged to sing shanties - morris dancing, fair enough.
However, the line must drawn somewhere.

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 27 Apr 19 - 05:40 PM

I don't know about ghosts, but chanty singing was necessitated by having skeleton crews.

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Apr 19 - 05:07 PM

only if they are singing shanties that mention ghost ships

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Apr 19 - 04:28 PM

What about ghosts... are they allowed to sing shanties...???

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Apr 19 - 04:11 PM

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Apr 19 - 11:55 AM

@Sandman
Are you suggsting that a trans woman isn't a "proper" woman?
Iam not suggesting anything , transgender people include women who have become men and men who have become women ,it is my opinion that anyone of any sex should be able to sing shanties, including people who have changed sex

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: meself
Date: 27 Apr 19 - 02:26 PM

Well, in keeping with the thread drift: White Collar Holler

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 27 Apr 19 - 01:25 PM

'for working freelance in their underpants on an expensive....? Oops no, that's even worse!

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Apr 19 - 01:07 PM

Jeri - and I tried editing that sentence around at least twice
to defeat that potential interpretation...

dammit.. mudcat wins again...

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: Jeri
Date: 27 Apr 19 - 12:41 PM

N E fule no, that's not really folk music. And why would you put underpants on an expensive Mac computer?

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Apr 19 - 12:37 PM

Jeri - let's not stop yet.. this game is fun...

Should middle class white folkies sing black prisoner chain-gang songs
but change the lyrics to reflect modern employment and pay conditions
for working freelance on an expensive Mac computer at home in their underpants...???

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Apr 19 - 11:55 AM

@Sandman
Are you suggsting that a trans woman isn't a "proper" woman?

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Apr 19 - 10:52 AM

OF COURSE THEY SHOULD, why not? SO SHOULD TRANSGENDER PEOPLE.

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: Jeri
Date: 27 Apr 19 - 09:40 AM

I see this thread has now morphed into one for which people have a familiar script. Oh well, we haven't done "Political Correctness vs. Not Being a ___ist Jerk" one for a while.

Maybe the thread name should change?

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: GUEST,Sol
Date: 27 Apr 19 - 09:16 AM

I take your point, Al. I have in the past self-edited a song as it made reference to losing both legs which I - as the singer - thought was inappropriate. That doesn't mean I should demand that the origial version be 'cleaned up' and replaced with my edited one.
Whenever you sing a song, the likelihood of offending someone is always there. You could sing the Irish Rover and have one of the audience burst into tears because their dog had recently drowned. So, where do we stop? That's the big question. I think obviously a bit of decorum should be used when picking a set for a known venue and audience however, it's impossible to cover all the bases of sensitivity unless you want to restrict yourself to singing "Doh A Deer" and songs of that ilk.

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Apr 19 - 08:59 AM

Which is okay if you are intelligent and creative enough to tailor your folksong for the audience.

I can remember so many times when I screwed up with audiences. Its like Hemingway says, if you go to war often enough - you'll get killed.

When I was acountry singer - Its hard to love a man whose legs are bentan paralysed. And this bloke walks/stumbles in and across the floor with the bentest pair of legs you ever saw.

I remember , an agent sent me out with this music hall act - and theres this line in knees up mother brown! that goes, and if I catch you bending, I'll saw your legs right off!
Luckily I DID have the presence of mind to change it in a roomful of amputees - but i can think of some singers who are o'on automatic' and wouldn't.

its so easy to get the audience wrong - years ago, like in my twenties - i got asked to do this gig for the OAP's Christmas party. One discerning old chap, observed very loudly in my Jim Reeves medley - this bugger will have us dib dib dobbing next!

its as well someone publishes versions that won't anyone except folk song enthusiasts.

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Apr 19 - 08:22 AM

"The singer should decide the format of any song he or she delivers."
I think this is fair enough - to a point
As far as misogyny in songs went, we dealt with it in feature evenings such as 'Battle of the Sexes, where men and women singers countered each others songs with their opposites - it usually worked without giving offence - there are as many anti-men songs as there are genuine anti-women songs
As far as racist songs are concerned, I don't think this has ever ben a major problem - usually a change of word does the trick
It would be a pity to lose good songs because they reflected past prejudices - the folk usually managed to adapt older songs to changing values

Personally I find PC an offensive term - objecting to racism or misogyny should be a social issue (how you respond to your fellow human beings) rather than a political one.
In my opinion, the term is used by the prejudiced to excuse their own prejudices
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: GUEST,Sol
Date: 27 Apr 19 - 08:07 AM

I agree with you 100%, Big Al. People will sing what they want and that is fine by me. My only concern is the 'they' part when talking about the new songbook editors. Who exactly are the 'they' who will have the power to decide what is pc or not? What 'they' think is offensive may be quite acceptable to others.
Imo,songs should be published as per the original (i.e. as written by the composer or as trad). The singer should decide the format of any song he or she delivers.

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Apr 19 - 06:09 AM

Already buried in folk clubs - hardly necessary burning them.

You mustn't resent the world taking folksongs and morris dancing on its own terms. The living people are the living component, who breathe life into the folk songs.

They will use the songs or not. Its their call how they use them.

We may dispute the wisdom of their choices, but twas ever so.

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: GUEST,Sol
Date: 27 Apr 19 - 05:13 AM

Why don't we burn all the books and old recordings and just pretend these songs never existed? I'd much rather we did that than try to sanitise them.

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: GUEST,PC or not to PC
Date: 27 Apr 19 - 01:23 AM

I am told by good authority - aka a good mate of mine on the folk scene - that there is a movement in the shanty / chanty scene to remove all aspects of sexism, racism, ageism, and indeed all 'isms' to appease the politically correct. In schools I can just about understand this; but why for adults? Shouldn't shanties be sung the way they were collected - in the rough so to speak?

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: mg
Date: 26 Apr 19 - 11:01 PM

I think you can if you want, but if you have a soft voice, male or female, and are trying to lead a pack of loud voices, it will not be well received usually. If you have a pack of quiet voices, it does not matter..sing at will. Know the culture of the group and know where your voice fits..if it is a large group, let the leaders lead and shine somewhere else. Now, as to changing the gender/sex whatever the rule is, please try very hard not to do that. It is very annoying to me and I presume others. We expect one version and hear another. I think it never improves a song. At the very least say you have changed it. Also..man changes woman to man in song. next woman hears it and thinks i can't sing like a man and changes it to woman..on and on. song gets mangled.

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Apr 19 - 10:42 PM

Shanty sounds very much like shandy, which we all know is not very manly,
so therefore it's perfectly logical that it is actually men who shouldn't sing shanties...

right then, cleared that up...

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Apr 19 - 09:59 PM

I think some shanties are just good songs, quite independent of their origin.

I saw the Birmingham Rep do a version of Treasure Island, and they did Lowlands, quite beautifully in a sort of choral arrangement.

You can't limit or legislate the creative spark that a song ignite

Women, troupes of dancing kangaroos, The wombles, The Smurfs... they're all out there!

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Apr 19 - 09:59 PM

Of course women should sing shanties! And so should chimps, dogs, parrots, etc....more fun for everyone. :)

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Apr 19 - 08:28 PM

"Who cares what other people think?"
Nor should you Jeri - any more than I do
Jim

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 26 Apr 19 - 07:24 PM

Producer-package-consumer... if the customers are buying it, who cares about the critics?

Rebecca W. Bates (1793-1881)
American Army of Two

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: Jeri
Date: 26 Apr 19 - 05:12 PM

The "Folk Police" idea is ridiculous. I'll keep singing shanties, and not one thing will happen. Who cares what other people think?

Subject: RE: Should women sing chanties
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Apr 19 - 03:08 PM

Jim - arrest them... slap 'em in the Folk Gaol... and throw the keys away..

..just don't leave visible bruises when they get their lawyer's visit..