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Making folk club recordings available

Richard Mellish 24 Apr 19 - 05:19 AM
GUEST,Ray 24 Apr 19 - 05:34 AM
Howard Jones 24 Apr 19 - 06:27 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Apr 19 - 08:12 AM
punkfolkrocker 24 Apr 19 - 08:26 AM
GUEST,Jack Campin 24 Apr 19 - 08:38 AM
GUEST,SB 24 Apr 19 - 08:41 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Apr 19 - 08:51 AM
Howard Jones 24 Apr 19 - 09:10 AM
Big Al Whittle 24 Apr 19 - 09:19 AM
punkfolkrocker 24 Apr 19 - 09:22 AM
GUEST,Jack Campin 24 Apr 19 - 09:34 AM
GUEST,matt milton 24 Apr 19 - 09:56 AM
punkfolkrocker 24 Apr 19 - 10:37 AM
GUEST 24 Apr 19 - 10:44 AM
GUEST,Sandy 24 Apr 19 - 10:47 AM
Nick 24 Apr 19 - 04:18 PM
Nick 24 Apr 19 - 04:22 PM
Nick 24 Apr 19 - 04:34 PM
Steve Gardham 24 Apr 19 - 04:43 PM
Nick 24 Apr 19 - 07:03 PM
punkfolkrocker 24 Apr 19 - 08:06 PM
GUEST,Rossey 24 Apr 19 - 10:27 PM
punkfolkrocker 25 Apr 19 - 12:15 AM
GUEST,Observer 25 Apr 19 - 01:17 AM
GUEST,Observer 25 Apr 19 - 01:17 AM
Richard Mellish 25 Apr 19 - 01:30 AM
punkfolkrocker 25 Apr 19 - 02:01 AM
punkfolkrocker 25 Apr 19 - 02:11 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Apr 19 - 02:54 AM
GUEST,Observer 25 Apr 19 - 03:08 AM
punkfolkrocker 25 Apr 19 - 03:35 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Apr 19 - 04:14 AM
Howard Jones 25 Apr 19 - 06:47 AM
GUEST,Rossey 25 Apr 19 - 06:53 AM
GUEST,matt milton 25 Apr 19 - 07:14 AM
Nick 25 Apr 19 - 07:15 AM
punkfolkrocker 25 Apr 19 - 08:28 AM
punkfolkrocker 25 Apr 19 - 08:37 AM
Nick 25 Apr 19 - 09:00 AM
Nick 25 Apr 19 - 09:01 AM
GUEST,Rossey 25 Apr 19 - 09:03 AM
Nick 25 Apr 19 - 09:19 AM
punkfolkrocker 25 Apr 19 - 09:24 AM
Howard Jones 25 Apr 19 - 09:34 AM
GUEST,Rossey 25 Apr 19 - 10:12 AM
GUEST,Rossey 25 Apr 19 - 10:29 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Apr 19 - 11:17 AM
Howard Jones 25 Apr 19 - 03:15 PM
punkfolkrocker 25 Apr 19 - 03:25 PM
Steve Gardham 25 Apr 19 - 03:49 PM
GUEST,Gerry 25 Apr 19 - 11:23 PM
punkfolkrocker 25 Apr 19 - 11:48 PM
Tony Rees 26 Apr 19 - 12:07 AM
Richard Mellish 26 Apr 19 - 02:07 AM
Tony Rees 26 Apr 19 - 02:29 AM
punkfolkrocker 26 Apr 19 - 02:38 AM
punkfolkrocker 26 Apr 19 - 02:47 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Apr 19 - 03:29 AM
Howard Jones 26 Apr 19 - 04:36 AM
GUEST,matt milton 26 Apr 19 - 04:57 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Apr 19 - 05:31 AM
punkfolkrocker 26 Apr 19 - 08:39 AM
punkfolkrocker 26 Apr 19 - 09:12 AM
GUEST,Old Performer 26 Apr 19 - 10:36 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Apr 19 - 10:43 AM
punkfolkrocker 26 Apr 19 - 10:59 AM
punkfolkrocker 26 Apr 19 - 11:01 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Apr 19 - 11:18 AM
Jack Campin 26 Apr 19 - 12:01 PM
punkfolkrocker 26 Apr 19 - 12:32 PM
Jim Carroll 26 Apr 19 - 12:38 PM
punkfolkrocker 26 Apr 19 - 12:46 PM
punkfolkrocker 26 Apr 19 - 12:52 PM
punkfolkrocker 26 Apr 19 - 01:06 PM
Jim Carroll 26 Apr 19 - 03:01 PM
Jack Campin 26 Apr 19 - 03:03 PM
punkfolkrocker 26 Apr 19 - 03:11 PM
punkfolkrocker 26 Apr 19 - 03:12 PM
punkfolkrocker 26 Apr 19 - 03:19 PM
Tony Rees 26 Apr 19 - 03:29 PM
punkfolkrocker 26 Apr 19 - 03:40 PM
Tony Rees 26 Apr 19 - 04:22 PM
Andy7 26 Apr 19 - 05:05 PM
Tony Rees 26 Apr 19 - 05:30 PM
punkfolkrocker 26 Apr 19 - 05:49 PM
Tony Rees 26 Apr 19 - 06:07 PM
punkfolkrocker 26 Apr 19 - 06:18 PM
Tony Rees 26 Apr 19 - 07:51 PM
Tony Rees 30 Apr 19 - 07:21 PM
GUEST,Some bloke 01 May 19 - 03:07 AM
Tony Rees 03 May 19 - 03:11 AM
punkfolkrocker 03 May 19 - 03:56 AM
GUEST,matt milton 03 May 19 - 04:14 AM
Tony Rees 14 May 19 - 03:42 PM
Richard Mellish 14 May 19 - 04:09 PM
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Subject: Making folk club recordings available
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 24 Apr 19 - 05:19 AM

This is prompted by the Peter Bellamy gig recording surfaced! thread.

I have many many hours of folk club recordings which I am gradually getting digitised. I would be willing to make them available but I'm unsure about the copyright situation. Typically the club members (I had not met the term "floor singers" in those days) were accustomed to having my microphone pointed at them and raised no objections, but I did normally ask permission from guests and indicated that the recordings would be for my personal use.

Some years ago I contributed my recording of an evening with Tony Rose to a project by his family, but that was clearly legitimate.

One of my two recordings of Lou Killen telling the Geordie Bible tale of The Christmas Outing (not the one that I linked to on another thread but from an earlier occasion) was preceded by his remarking that it was "strictly for the archives".

All my other recordings from 40 or 50 years ago might be regarded in the same way, or they might not.

There's also a website devoted to folk club recording, which I have not yet contributed to.


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Subject: RE: Making folk club recordings available
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 24 Apr 19 - 05:34 AM

My inclination would be to keep the lid firmly on this can of worms. You’ll not only have potential issues seeking permission from the performers themselves but you may also have issues with those who wrote the songs/tunes they performed. Get thee to a good solicitor!


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Subject: RE: Making folk club recordings available
From: Howard Jones
Date: 24 Apr 19 - 06:27 AM

Artists retain copyright in their performance (entirely separate from any copyrights on the material they perform) so strictly speaking you would need consent from everyone on the recording.

Where guests are concerned you had told them this was for personal use, so you would definitely have to get their consent to use it for something different.

Where floorsingers are concerned it was probably reasonable for them to assume this was for personal use, and again their consent would be needed.

You might also need to sort out copyright on the songs themselves.

Of course you could publish and be damned! Would anyone be bothered about enforcing it? Hard to say - professionals might not be happy about it, and even floorsingers might not want to see their efforts broadcast to the world, especially if they feel they don't now reflect their current abilities. Others might not be bothered. If you tell people you are willing to remove material on request that might help.

Another point to consider is that most platforms require you to own the copyright of material you post, or at least have consent, so you might run into problems with them. Where the songs are copyright you might get objections from the publisher (see the separate thread about Youtube).

In many respects this is a pity, because these archive recordings are probably of considerable interest, especially to those who attended the club, and more widely where they include notable performers who are no longer with us, or whose official recordings have been Bulmerised.


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Subject: RE: Making folk club recordings available
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Apr 19 - 08:12 AM

Whenever we recorded at folk clubs we first asked the performers permission to do so - unless they stated otherwise, we always assumed that, providing we did so responsibly we were free to pass them on
I see no harm in doing so here
I wish others adopted same attitude - good luck to you
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Making folk club recordings available
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Apr 19 - 08:26 AM

What are the options then - let these culturally valuable tapes be lost and destroyed,
or only accesable to exclusive elites...???


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Subject: RE: Making folk club recordings available
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 24 Apr 19 - 08:38 AM

Soundcloud supports private links and private playlists.

Facebook's "secret groups" would work better, but FB doesn't permit sound files.


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Subject: RE: Making folk club recordings available
From: GUEST,SB
Date: 24 Apr 19 - 08:41 AM

The same goes for the thousands of BBC recordings that they have junked, wiped and destroyed, and indeed still do. Folk enthusiasts have been home-taping folk programmes off-air for years. Yet my experiences are that even if offered the tapes back - because the Beeb has wiped whatever they had - the Beeb usually simply ignores the offers. So much has been lost - well bulmerised, wiped or junked. Yet anyone who tries to create an online archive of lost recordings is quickly served with a take-down notice for the files or they are simply deleted by the ISP.


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Subject: RE: Making folk club recordings available
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Apr 19 - 08:51 AM

Have been discussing this with a friend who, like me, has a number of club recordings which he wished to share
He suggests that those who wish to do so join together and share away - I'm more than happy with that -
I already do this with anything I'm happy to pass on - I use PCloud, but I'm sure there are others
Jim


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Subject: RE: Making folk club recordings available
From: Howard Jones
Date: 24 Apr 19 - 09:10 AM

The OP said he was worried about copyright. He's right to be, because copyright law is not on his side.

That doesn't mean that these recordings shouldn't be made available. I'm sure they would be of interest to many, and I entirely agree with Jim's attitude of "share away". It does mean that he faces a lot of potential obstacles. However I emphasise "potential". It is probably unlikely that the majority of those he recorded will care about them being made public, and provided he responds appropriately to those who do want them taking down that will probably be the end of the matter.

It does mean that there could be a lot more work involved than just digitising and posting the recordings, as he may also have to spend some time dealing with copyright requests. These are possibly more likely to come from the songs' composers than the performers.

Essex County Record Office has a large number of recordings of Chelmsford Folk Club and other local clubs made in the 1970s and 80s by Jim Etheridge and Dennis Rookard. I would love to hear them, not least because many of them feature me and my friends, as well as some impressive guests. However, even setting aside the costs of digitising them, I suspect copyright would prevent the ECRO from ever putting them online.


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Subject: RE: Making folk club recordings available
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Apr 19 - 09:19 AM

One's sins will find you out!


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Subject: RE: Making folk club recordings available
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Apr 19 - 09:22 AM

One less than satisfactory solution is donating collections to Universitys,
which might mean they can only be listened to by academics in Uni libraries...

I don't know if copies are made for listening,
or if the originals are at risk of degrading each time they are played...??

To be honest I'm not certain of the facts of this option...


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Subject: RE: Making folk club recordings available
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 24 Apr 19 - 09:34 AM

Almost all university libraries are open to any member of the public, though a very few (like Edinburgh) will charge you because they're run by bean-counting philistine arseholes with MBAs.

I assume a library's attitude to conservation and handling of originals will depend on how much demand there is and how much value they put on the material.


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Subject: RE: Making folk club recordings available
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 24 Apr 19 - 09:56 AM

I say publish and be damned. Except you probably won't be damned but thanked. Who does it hurt? Nobody. Who does it benefit? Folk fans (and the performers themselves are presumably folk fans too)

The only way I can conceivably think of any harm being done is the extremely unlikely event that the musician themselves had recorded the same material and had plans to release them. But that's 1000-1. The worst that will happen is someone will ask you to take them down.


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Subject: RE: Making folk club recordings available
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Apr 19 - 10:37 AM

There were [still are ???] some very well researched and presented folkie blogs with downloads...

My main criticism is that they were lossy mp3s...

But importantly, there was no need to be friends of the right people who were in the know..
or signed up members of pass worded selective societies..

No, these sites were freely available for anyone with an interest
and enthusiast's desire to hear long abandoned and witheld recordings...

If any artists complained with a justifiable reason for their LPs to be taken down,
then the bloggers usually complied and apologised..

But that's not very satisfactory for potential listeners
if those LPs then still continued to be unavailable to purchase,
or hear any other way...

If I had a box of old amateur recordings and let it be known publicly,
It'd be up to an artist to contact me if they saw commercial potential in any recordings of themselves.
Otherwise I'd consider the most effective way to make them freely available on a non purchase/ non profit basis...

..call me naive and idealistic...


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Subject: RE: Making folk club recordings available
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Apr 19 - 10:44 AM

If you indicated or implied the recordings were for personal use then I feel it would be wrong to change that now. Of course it is a shame for people not to have access to them as awonderful folk resource, but if you said one thing you should not then go against it. That would be dishonest and a breach of trust.


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Subject: RE: Making folk club recordings available
From: GUEST,Sandy
Date: 24 Apr 19 - 10:47 AM

I really don't think anybody will have a problem with this, as long as they are free of charge. You're not depriving anyone of income etc.

Tens of thousands of live recordings of most popular music artists are shared on sites like dimeadozen.org. They have a system whereby any artist that objects can notify them, and then material by that artist is disallowed.
see http://wiki.dimeadozen.org/index.php/DimeTOS:Not_Allowed_Artists_and_Bands

If you was to get a complaint, just remove the link!


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Subject: RE: Making folk club recordings available
From: Nick
Date: 24 Apr 19 - 04:18 PM

So is any of it any good?

Does any of it have anyone 'well known' on it?

Why exactly do you want to make it available? What does it add to the world?

I also ask as someone who records things (because I record things - which is a different discussion perhaps)


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Subject: RE: Making folk club recordings available
From: Nick
Date: 24 Apr 19 - 04:22 PM

A few examples - I recorded (and lost) a very early Hissyfit thing. perhaps even one of their first paid gigs. I think only Hazel has a copy. An early Edwina Hayes concert (with permission).

But both are where they stay

I have hundreds of hours of dross on an old cassette recorder


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Subject: RE: Making folk club recordings available
From: Nick
Date: 24 Apr 19 - 04:34 PM

I couldn't comment on recording proper paid folk in a performance environment

From my end I did it to see if we were getting any better rather than whether we could record something for posterity.

I do have a very sweet evening where a very good band (some of them became Blackbeards Tea Party and some didn't and went and played really really good jazz - magic p or something) came and shared some tunes.

But most of it is what you hear each week in an environment. And most of it is same same old

The one thing I realise as I need to sing again next month is that I am a much better guitarist and a much worse singer. So that needs rectifying and why recording is good


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Subject: RE: Making folk club recordings available
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 24 Apr 19 - 04:43 PM

Nick,
You appear to be in the East Riding from what you say. We are in the throes of digitising local folk club performances at the moment and already have an operative Hull Folk Archive going back to the 60s mainly involving Folk Union One and its spring offs, morris and other dancing teams, other local folk clubs etc. We are not quite ready to deposit the digitised material yet, but if you have any material digitised when we are ready we will take on other local material. The material in the archive is in the name of the Hull Folk Archive and anyone wishing to make copies of what is there would have to ask our permission via Hull History Centre where it is housed, but the material can be consulted freely without any need to address copyright, providing it is for non-commercial use.

If you have old recordings there is a strong likelihood that a lot of the people recorded are no longer with us or are no longer performing. As others have said the option is always there to remove material at the request of the performer or song writer.


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Subject: RE: Making folk club recordings available
From: Nick
Date: 24 Apr 19 - 07:03 PM

Steve - I have sat sang with you before now. North Yorkshire myself but I happen to slightly know some people from your part of the world like Les and Mick and Linda and Hazel

I'm desperately trying to wonder what is the point of digitising local folk clubs?

Most of the people I know in your part of the world love their music but also would quite like to make a name for themselves. And some are doing well now over the 15 years I have known them. Most of them are not rich from their music.

Linda and Hazel would have kittens if I decided to release/digitise their local performance from all those years ago. And so I wouldn't.


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Subject: RE: Making folk club recordings available
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Apr 19 - 08:06 PM

"Linda and Hazel would have kittens if I decided to release/digitise their local performance from all those years ago. "

I don't know these people, but can you be so sure of that...???

My experience is that there are not enough surviving tapes of our band's past and origins,
and we'd welcome a chance to hear and share any that resurfaced...
no matter how unflattering.. it's our history and we enjoyed living it, warts and all...

Particularly the green plastic cassette from circa 1975...
and the reel to reel tape from 1981... long MIA presumed binned...

Maybe you are being too oversensitive and protective on other performer's behalf...???

why not ask, and if necessary gently persuade them...


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Subject: RE: Making folk club recordings available
From: GUEST,Rossey
Date: 24 Apr 19 - 10:27 PM

There are different issues. You have the song copyrights, depending on whose repertoire they are singing. Even if there are songs that were Trad. in a strict sense, then the artists performing them are entitled to claim and be paid for their arrangement. If there are songs in copyright, then they would equally have to go through MCPS licensing for commercial use.   

Now though previously published recordings made after 1962 are in copyright for 70 years (and performers can re-claim the recordings if they are unused after 50) - unpublished recordings have a copyright duration of 50 years from their making "if a recording is not published or communicated to the public, the performers` rights last for 50 years from when the recording was made" Songs of course are themselves in copyright for 70 years after the death of the writer or arranger/s.


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Subject: RE: Making folk club recordings available
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Apr 19 - 12:15 AM

Though in this thread we are primarily talking about amateur recordists
sharing their archive recordings of mostly amateur and semi pro local performers,
before the tapes are lost or destroyed forever...

It is unhelpful to try to make the situation more complex and legalistic than necessary...

Our culture widely accepts a tradition of informal non profit sharing of non commercial music.
This is long established over many decades and rarely of any harm to artists or their estate.
There are even big name artists who actually condone and encourage amateur taping of their concerts.

However, it seems a minority of old folkies are unaware of this 'underground' music sharing tradition
and are perhaps a little overcautious, perhaps even paranoid,
regarding the consequences of making 'lost' music freely available to their friendly community of folk music enthusiasts...

I feel I am stating something so obvious, as so many here will understand and readily accept all this.
But if some folks are really worried, the rest of us need to positively reassure them...
Sharing old amateur recordings is ok, it's no big problem...
Whatever was said or agreed decades ago while you set up a microphone,
folks can and do change their minds over time.
Sharing the music is ultimately a very good thing, not a sin...


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Subject: RE: Making folk club recordings available
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 25 Apr 19 - 01:17 AM

" I did normally ask permission from guests and indicated that the recordings would be for my personal use."

That is what you said and on that premise permission was given to record. You are therefore bound by what you said - personal use means personal use. It would be wrong for you to use that material in any other way.


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Subject: RE: Making folk club recordings available
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 25 Apr 19 - 01:17 AM

" I did normally ask permission from guests and indicated that the recordings would be for my personal use."

That is what you said and on that premise permission was given to record. You are therefore bound by what you said - personal use means personal use. It would be wrong for you to use that material in any other way.


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Subject: RE: Making folk club recordings available
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 25 Apr 19 - 01:30 AM

Thanks to all for the various (very various) answers. As a late friend of mine used to say; "a definite qualified maybe".

If I'm going to make my recordings generally available (as distinct from sending copies on USB sticks to one or two individuals) there's also the matter of how. The recordings that I have digitised and indexed so far come to about 7 GB as WAVs, and that's not counting any of my tapes from the Herga that are digitised, but indexed only as images of my handwriting on the tape boxes or a pieces of paper. All of it can of course be converted to a compressed format, but it's still going to be an awful lot to upload somewhere.


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Subject: RE: Making folk club recordings available
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Apr 19 - 02:01 AM

Richard - sharing by cloud storage is relatively easy,
but may be a strain on your time and broadband.

I'd be fairly certain some of the more experienced contibuters to this thread
would welcome your USB sticks mailed to them
so they could take care of the uploading for you....

Uncompressed source files WAVS are preferable to mp3s,
and again, anyone uploading for you could make the music available
in optional WAV/flac or mp3s to suit downloader preferences...

Despite the hard-line naysayers, such a project is an essential function of a music scene
inspired by shared music traditions and social history..

cheers...


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Subject: RE: Making folk club recordings available
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Apr 19 - 02:11 AM

I forgot to mention, if you are concerned 7 GB is large,
it's not a problem.

For instance, I buy music tech software - virtual intrument sample sets etc,
7 GB is a modest size by these common standards.
That's the same size as one sampled grand piano I easily downloaded as a single zip file a few days ago...

Uploading 7 GB of individual tracks would be more time consuming for an uploader,
but it'd be a simple task to plan and execute...

Some mudcatters in this thread probably have that kind of experience,
and could volunteer on a joint project with you...???


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Subject: RE: Making folk club recordings available
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Apr 19 - 02:54 AM

"in a strict sense, then the artists performing them are entitled to claim and be paid for their arrangement."
If this is true, every trad song is an arrangement and has no right to have been placed in the public domain - it really is time that that people came to terms with this.
Walter Pardon's versions are 'unique' (Mike Yates once offered a very fine reason for this)
Why should a modern folkie have the right to claim for his/her versions while our older singers did not ?
This obsession with payment continues to damage the future of folks song - in needs to be knocked on the head.

As far as 'personal use' is concerned, that is a meaningless term; we never used it.
We asked singers if they had any objections to us recording their singing - that we would not go off and sell it went without saying - 'arrangements'and payment didn't feature much in folk song in those days and, especially considering the uncertain future of folk song, it shouldn't now.

As far as distributing material; my maye Bob's suggestion of setting uup a 'sharing' group seems more and more sensible
He pointed out that PCloud were offering a bargain-price increase of space
I use their freebie space, but have been considering expanding my space - I see no reason why a group of like-minded people couldn't share the cost and share the space
About time folk got back to the grass-roots sharing philosophy that gave us the pleasure that is folk song
Jim


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Subject: RE: Making folk club recordings available
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 25 Apr 19 - 03:08 AM

"Personal use" is a far from meaningless term Jim, it means exactly what it says on the tin. In making YOUR recordings you stated that you never made any such pronouncements but you still asked prior permission. That permission having been given then meant you were free to do whatever you liked with the recorded material.


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Subject: RE: Making folk club recordings available
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Apr 19 - 03:35 AM

GUEST,Observer - you are reacting as if any agreements made decades ago,
to which you were not a witness,
were somehow written in blood on sacred parchment...

We're not exactly talking about Knights of the Round Table
swearing noble oaths before King and God...

..just ordinary folks who often say things for courtesy, social diplomacy and convenience..

Things that normal folks can forget or change their minds about in time...
Things they might not even have cared about too much many years ago,
or if they did, have now lightened up and relaxed about it...

Folks are at liberty to reconsider, adapt, and move on...

Blimey, you do take things so seriously...


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Subject: RE: Making folk club recordings available
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Apr 19 - 04:14 AM

"it means exactly what it says on the tin. "
t depends on ow you phrase yor question
As a singing workshop member my "personal use" would be to share it with other members
Your request should ascertain whether singers you wish to record had any ojctions to sharing their performances with others - no more than that - I can't remember anybody ever objecting to that idea
Jim


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Subject: RE: Making folk club recordings available
From: Howard Jones
Date: 25 Apr 19 - 06:47 AM

punkfolkrocker, whilst I agree with most of what you said in your post of 25 Apr 19 - 12:15 AM, the legal question cannot be entirely ignored. The OP asked about copyright and this has been answered. Unfortunately copyright law is at odds with the sharing culture you describe. Also, that view may not be shared by the rights holders in some of the copyright material which was performed.

However I disagree with your post of 25 Apr 19 - 03:35 AM about "personal use". Whether those undertakings are contractually binding or not, surely there is a moral obligation to abide by them? Doesn't the sharing culture also imply an obligation to act in good faith and to respect our fellow participants? "Personal use" means just that and by no stretch of the imagination can it include sharing it with the entire world.

On balance, I think the archive value and interest in these recordings should outweigh the legal considerations and the OP should go ahead. There is no commercial gain here, and little commercial loss to anyone. It is unlikely that most of the performers will object, however if they or other copyright holders should object the OP must be willing to take down those recordings. He should also be prepared to fall foul of PRS, who I doubt will be impressed by the "sharing culture" argument and will expect to receive an appropriate fee (appropriate in their eyes that is), assuming of course they become aware of it.


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Subject: RE: Making folk club recordings available
From: GUEST,Rossey
Date: 25 Apr 19 - 06:53 AM

Legality works both ways, and can be made to defend use of material as well as protect it.                                             
As I pointed out anything pre-1970 odd..(over 50 years) if taped and never heard before, the performer has no legal say. As long as it's previously unpublished in any form, then under the most recent revision of the copyright act in the UK, it's fair game. Though the songs they perform are still copyright works and as you know european article 13 has been passed   Previously published recordings or radio tapes are a different matter and usually hold longer copyright for the performer (Unless pre-1963). But that's all pretty much commercial usage.


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Subject: RE: Making folk club recordings available
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 25 Apr 19 - 07:14 AM

Surely it's worth reminding ourselves that these are recordings of people who chose to sing in public at a folk club? Seems weird to suggest that anyone happy to make their music public (to a room full of people) would have a big objection to making their music public (via the internet).

YouTube is full of iPhone-captured footage of gigs, buskers etc. I think anyone under 30 would find the qualms expressed in this thread completely mystifying.


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Subject: RE: Making folk club recordings available
From: Nick
Date: 25 Apr 19 - 07:15 AM

PFR - "Linda and Hazel would have kittens if I decided to release/digitise their local performance from all those years ago. "

I don't know these people, but can you be so sure of that...???

Yes totally. I recorded it with permission. But equally explicit was that it was not for anyone else apart from me and them. There is a person who uses this forum who wanted a copy and was explicitly excluded from having a copy. Similarly with Edwina Hayes. I recorded it with permission because my wife couldn't attend the concert and she is the only other person who has heard it.

And I respect that.

I went to see James Taylor and Bonnie Raitt last year and was sitting in the front row. And asked before the gig whether I could take pictures or not - who wants an idiot sitting in the front row taking pictures without an ok - and as it was ok I have some nice pictures.

If anybody has pictures or recordings of anything I have played in then yes it would be interesting to see (when I started playing gigs did they have videos in 1969 or would it be on Super 8 or something and reel to reel? So it's unlikely. I do have some stuff on reel to reel from 1969 - I wonder what happened to the drummer he was very good?). But I wouldn't necessarily want it to be out of my control and for someone else to feel it is "their's to do as they wish".

I played a gig recently which I recorded for us (as I do because I like to see and hear how we are doing) and offered the same to the person we supported. They said 'no' so I didn't. But I did take some photos (allowed) and the person who didn't want something of quality wanted some of my snaps. And then popped them online. They are awful photos because of lighting and all sorts of reasons and I actually didn't want to be put on the world for people to see how bad I am as a photographer. :) Perhaps if he had published them without my name with them I would have been OK.

Historical things are interesting and sometimes they are nice things to have. But not necessarily to share. There is a nice pipe player who played with a very fine guitarist who died some years back. And I did send him a copy of the two of them playing when they played at a session in a pub near here that we organised. And it was a nice thing to have for him. But I wouldn't share it with people generally just because I have it.

Perhaps in 50 - 100 years time it won't matter. But it would also have very little interest.

Scarcity is the thing. Having everything is a curious thing. Either you want facebook or archive.org :) The latter had issues with photos and music though which made, what is the hugest (I think), archive anywhere less useful. But it also (I think) archives the archives which is interesting.

I have a lovely fondness for the days when you could put "the end of the internet" in google and get one response. Now the same joke returns 2.3billion copies.

I realise I'm being a partial Luddite :)


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Subject: RE: Making folk club recordings available
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Apr 19 - 08:28 AM

Howard - like I said, "..call me naive and idealistic..."

I am not alone in becoming sick of petty legalistic disputes between stubborn embittered greedy old men
[and perhaps a few women..]
resulting in music, movies, & TV shows being permanently witheld from the world;
whilst the tape and film decays beyond any further usability.

Where are their 'morals'...???

How many classic and obscure old TV series and films are locked up rotting away
because of disputes regarding music and song rights...???

How annoying is it, when a boxset does finally get released,
and the familiar title theme is missing or replaced,
or vital scenes cut because of a song playing in the background....???

Moral highground in these circumstances is a misplaced concept...

However, here we are talking about amateur taping for non commercial use.
I still ask folks to consider that informal unwritten agreements made 40 years or more ago
should carry a certain degree of flexibility,
when weighed up against loss to enthusiasts of valuable taped material..

The recent Live Young Tradition CD comes to mind, an excellent tape from 50 years ago,
recorded secretly without permission by a keen young folk fan.
Who was too timid to confess what he had done until only a few years ago..
What if he'd asked and been refused consent to tape.
How 'immoral' of him to do it on the sly...

'Morality' is not the most meaningful concept to apply to archiving and availability of our social/cultural history...

Gentlemen's agrements are a nicety, and ought to apply until they are no longer reasonable
or rational...

I actually agree that my word should be my bond, and I have a quite stern personal moral compass.
But I accept it cannot be the final word in all circumstances.


Now in an age of phone cams and Zoom mini recorders, how many even even bother to ask anyone anymore
before recording and uploading all minutae of life to social media.

But back then taping was not so easy and convenient, and fewer social events were recorded for posterity.
These few remaining tapes and super 8 films can be important and entertaining social history artifacts.
Their value far outweighs words said and often barely remembered about their creation...

My dad was a rarity in the 1950s and early 60s,
a factory machinist with a keen interest in amateur photography,
and a decent camera.
I have negatives of all kinds of council estate & pub social activities,
which should not be left to rot in my mum's attic.
It's on my to do list, but I daresay at least an odd higher principled over opinionated mudcatter will insist
I should destroy all but those I can identify and trace back to surviving family members
to ask their permission...???

Morality is a guidline, not an excuse to willfully withhold and destroy our social history...

We should respect agreements with folks as best as we can,
but after a long enough time also ought to be willing to reconsider
when and if these old words of ours are too binding and restrictive
beyond good sense...

Unseen and heard archives of amateur recordings
are recognised by museums as invaluable assets
whose holders should be positively encouraged to share what they have
or our hidden national heritage...


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Subject: RE: Making folk club recordings available
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Apr 19 - 08:37 AM

btw.. I see the thread has moved on since I started writing,
the last one I read was GUEST,Rossey - PM
Date: 25 Apr 19 - 06:53 AM..

I think most of us are in accord on general principles of making our archives available,
at least to museums and suchlike...

Regarding sharing amateur material more widely on a non profit basis,
my personal view is some folks are too hindered by their extensive knowledge of legalese..

I do take on board Howard's fair minded reservations..

A beacon for me is Jim, who I respect in these matters,
but not folks such as GUEST,Observer...


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Subject: RE: Making folk club recordings available
From: Nick
Date: 25 Apr 19 - 09:00 AM

PFR

I think it's lovely that you have loads of things that are treasures. I think - your motive is to share something that otherwise would be gone forever.

Whether the stuff actually has value apart from existing is a different thing I think

Who do you want to share these things with? My guess is the people who might be interested rather than everyone.

What has changed is 'those who might be interested' and 'everyone' have become the same thing

Which then goes back to "how do I sort out everything" when everything is growing faster than you evaluate it.

And most of it is shit.

And so we look to google or bigger and bigger things to decide what we should look at. etc etc



When I found the internet around 1998/9 I used to be all over the place (surfing I think). After a few years I found I went to very few places.

Having access to everything is a great thought but has its own dangers

Look at your internet cache for this month and compare it to last months (or last years). With access to everything the world doesn't get easier


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Subject: RE: Making folk club recordings available
From: Nick
Date: 25 Apr 19 - 09:01 AM

Control of data is the biggest issue of the next decade as it has been since the 60s


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Subject: RE: Making folk club recordings available
From: GUEST,Rossey
Date: 25 Apr 19 - 09:03 AM

Photos are a different issue and that is an archive to be proud of.. there are plenty of provisions in place covering unknown ownership of visual images, plus if your old man took them, you inherit the rights to use photographs on behalf of his estate, and gain for commercial use, or waver that, and donate them in any way to an archive (who still often charge for commercial reproduction and then equally will claim copyright as a collection).   You can share them on flickr, but the vultures will hijack and make use of them for commercial gain.   Different issues though over copyright music, and the rights held by publishers/writers and song rights agencies. Also, some singers are likely to be dead, and there is the emotional point of using someone's voice, which maybe upsetting, cringeworthy - or equally comforting and exciting to those relatives of the performers, bringing someone's voice back.


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Subject: RE: Making folk club recordings available
From: Nick
Date: 25 Apr 19 - 09:19 AM

A thing is

With the laudable objective of sharing and availability and all sorts of things that seem good. It's hard as it changes.


Let me go back up the thread a lot.

I think what Jim Carroll and Steve aim for is positive and laudable. And PFR. It's caretaking of the past because of the limitations of technology.

But in this day and age as technology moves on the things change. The aim to have everything available to everyone in real time means ...

I know I am being constantly being manipulated by stuff as people know more and more about me. As long as you are aware of it you - like me - you will be complacent like me Ha Ha

I'll move off


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Subject: RE: Making folk club recordings available
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Apr 19 - 09:24 AM

I'm having to dictate this on my phone as my PC crashed about half an hour ago,
And is not running yet.

Here I remind myself as much as tell you folks
that I used to be a museum photo archivist,
and also worked on social history multimedia projects.

We worked with old artefacts,
with no knowledge of any words spoken or agreements made at the time of their creation.
The photographers and home cine filmmakers long gone...
we just considered it an honour to be able to present such treasures to anyone interested in them.
The fact that any survived at all was a source of inspiration.
But it was frustrating and saddening to handle fragments of glass negatives
that were all that was left of once significant collections...

What we might think of as a box of old crap collecting dust and getting in the way,
May actually be invaluable to archivists and researchers.
Let alone the general public...

Maybe this gives a better idea where I'm coming from on this issue...???

I'm not just an obsessive music lover...


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Subject: RE: Making folk club recordings available
From: Howard Jones
Date: 25 Apr 19 - 09:34 AM

According to this apparently authoritative website, in the case of sound recordings the period of protection of performers' rights is extended from 50 to 70 years:

Copyrightuser.org

To Matt Milton, it is one thing to sing to a small audience in a folk club, many of whom may be your friends. It is quite another thing for that performance to be broadcast to the whole world. Likewise, someone who is now a polished and experienced performer may not be keen to see their early efforts exposed. So I don't think it can be assumed that those performers won't mind if these recordings are made public, although I suspect most won't be bothered, and many will be pleased and flattered.

The other matter to bear in mind is that composers' rights are largely administered by rights organisations eg PRS who have a duty to their members to generate income where their works are being used - even on a non-commercial basis. They are unlikely to ignore this, assuming it comes to their attention. It is up to the owners of the rights to tell PRS that they are willing to waive them in particular circumstances.

These are issues which are faced by museums, galleries, universities and other institutions who want to make their material widely available. In most cases they take a risk-managed approach. I suggest the OP does the same - put it online, but be prepared to deal promptly and politely with any objections.

It might be possible for the OP to claim a "fair usage" exemption on the basis the material is being made available for private study and has no commercial value. However fair usage is difficult to define and will depend on the facts. The criteria, as established by one court case, include:

(1) The degree to which the alleged infringing use competes with exploitation of the copyright work by the owner. This is likely to be a most important factor…
(2) Whether the work has been published or not…
(3) The extent of the use and the importance of what has been taken. In many cases this will be a highly important factor…’

Whether this would be enough to deter PRS is another matter. I have found them quite difficult to deal with - not unreasonable, but inflexible.


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Subject: RE: Making folk club recordings available
From: GUEST,Rossey
Date: 25 Apr 19 - 10:12 AM

Howard.. that 70 years is correct for published recordings. They introduced a new regulation for unpublished recordings which is 50 years, the two are different with different terms. Recording artists can also claim back ownership of published recordings after 50 years on written notice if little use is being made of them. Anything pre-1963 recording wise is out of copyright recording wise. The keywords are published and unpublished recordings - ie recordings that have never been communicated to the public, as opposed to broadcast or recordings previously issued on records. The songs though are separate copyright and when you assign rights to the PRS, it is a binding contract.


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Subject: RE: Making folk club recordings available
From: GUEST,Rossey
Date: 25 Apr 19 - 10:29 AM

It is a bit confusing but here you go Howard.. " How long copyright in sound recordings lasts
The length of term of copyright in a sound recording depends on whether or not it has been published (released) or has been communicated to the public (for example, played on the radio)

if a recording is not published or communicated to the public, copyright lasts for 50 years from when the recording was made

if a recording is published within 50 years of when it was made, copyright lasts for 70 years from the year it was first published

if a recording is not published within 50 years of when it was made, but it is communicated to the public, copyright lasts for 70 years from the year it was first communicated to the public

if a recording is first communicated to the public within 50 years of when it was made and is then published at a later date (but within 70 years of its first communication to the public), copyright lasts for 70 years from the year it was first published"   

I hope that clarifies the difference. But pre-1963 is a cut off point, as the act didn't apply. Hence a whole load of golden oldies compilations with rock n'roll hits that may occasionally include the Beatles 'Love Me Do', but not 'She Loves You'. It used to be a straight 50 years for all recordings, but they extended it to 70. But unpublished tapes are 50 years. Hence Apple released some rarities on the Internet for a short period and removed them, to be able to say they had 'published' them and give themselves a reserve stash of material that would have been out of copyright.


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Subject: RE: Making folk club recordings available
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Apr 19 - 11:17 AM

I find all this rather depressing
I've always found it a problem giving recordings we've accumulated - the disinterest has often been underwhenlming, to say the least
Virtually all the recordings we have have been given with goodwill and generosity; the field singers we interviewed were all insistent that they we happy to pass on their songs because "if nobody has them, they;'ll die"
Collectors like Tom Munnelly, Hugh Shields, MacColl, Charles Parker, Bob Thomson... adopted the same attitude
Now we're bogged down in copyright, ownership, commercial use.... anything other than how to pass this stuff to those who can use it
Personally, I'd rather swallow the stuff we have with a plateful of fava beans rather than pay PRS and Imro a penny - the money they accumulate goes first to the more successful performers; the ordinary folk love features very small on their Richter Scale
The BBC recordings were paid for by my parents taxes and licence fees, yet, if I want to use them I have to pay the same as I would for a Mick Jagger track
When I came into the scene, money was the last thing that entered the mind of those involved - nowadays it seems to be an insurmountable hurdle - we've been handed back to the same money-men we escape from way back when

Whatever others decide, I will continue to pass on what I have (with discretion, as I always have)
I only hope there iis enough people left on the scene to use it to make a difference
Jim


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Subject: RE: Making folk club recordings available
From: Howard Jones
Date: 25 Apr 19 - 03:15 PM

Jim, I think your situation is very different. I don't doubt that you made it very clear to your informants what you were doing and why, and they gave their consent to this, either expressly or by implication. The songs themselves were almost certainly traditional or out of copyright, so PRS have no jurisdiction over them. I don't think you have anything to worry about on the copyright front.

The OP obtained consent to his recordings on the clear understanding that they were for his personal use. Whether he still feels bound by that or now considers that the interests of posterity override it is up to him. At worst he runs the risk of damaging a friendship through a breach of trust - but in those cases he is probably close enough to the person to seek their renewed consent.

There are many areas in life where laws and regulations put in place for entirely justifiable purposes may appear heavy-handed in fringe situations. No matter how much we might wish it were otherwise, the law does have a bearing here. However we shouldn't get it out of proportion. The OP won't get sued or prosecuted. Financially the worst risk is that there is a chance that PRS might try to charge a licence fee. They can only do this if he is making copyright music available, so he could get around this by removing those recordings which PRS could show they administer. They can do nothing about material which is out of copyright or where the composer is not a PRS member. So while copyright must be a consideration, it should not prevent him from going ahead, but it might influence what he puts online and how he administers it in future.


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Subject: RE: Making folk club recordings available
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Apr 19 - 03:25 PM

Howard - excellent summary...


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Subject: RE: Making folk club recordings available
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 25 Apr 19 - 03:49 PM

I am with Jim 100% here. There are 2 clear separate issues. Placing material somewhere it can be accessed by interested parties as Jim and we do; and placing material online, which has opened up this great can of worms. Once our digitised recordings have been deposited we intend with the remaining funding to set up a website of selected material from the archive. This thread has at least given me food for thought that this must be done quite carefully and with appropriate permissions.

Like Jim I am no lover of PRS. If somebody registers their material with PRS hoping to get the pennies they accumulate then that's up to them, but what was going on at Festivals a few years ago was actually pernicious. We were being told that we had to fill in forms listing all the songs we sang and the festival then had to pay certain amounts to PRS regardless of whether they were nearly all public domain. We were then informed by the legal whizzes that almost all of this income was being sent to the likes of Paul McCartney. I tore mine up.

Some of the songs I have written are now being sung by others and all that means to me is, wow! they want to sing my songs, the more the merrier. I would actually pay NOT to register them with PRS!


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Subject: RE: Making folk club recordings available
From: GUEST,Gerry
Date: 25 Apr 19 - 11:23 PM

1. I wish that people discussing the intricacies of copyright law would include in their posts some indication of just exactly whose copyright law they have in mind. I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on the internet, but I have formed the impression that different jurisdictions actually have different laws, so what's legal in Botswana may be illegal in Bhutan, and a hanging crime in Saudi Arabia.

2. There's a fellow who takes video recordings of every performance at a local folk club where I occasionally take the stage. He has my permission to release in any form he wishes any recording he has made of my efforts, provided only that he waits until I'm dead.


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Subject: RE: Making folk club recordings available
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Apr 19 - 11:48 PM

"provided only that he waits until I'm dead."

errrrm... you'd better hope he's not too impatient...


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Subject: RE: Making folk club recordings available
From: Tony Rees
Date: 26 Apr 19 - 12:07 AM

I do have an interest in this - mostly regarding recordings (audio and/or video) of professional and semi-pro performers - i.e. featured acts - at clubs, concerts and festivals. I figure the recordings may one day be perceived to be of cultural value but also appreciate that the performers themselves might like some control over what gets out there into the public arena (off nights etc.) I do not have any answers at present - as has already been said, for recordings uploaded to public sites the uploader should notionally have the copyright not only to the performance (which belongs to the performer/s) but also to the performed works (which belong to the writers and/or their publishing companies) - which of course I do not. To date I have copied a few things to DVD and sent them to the performers concerned for their interest - but only occasionally does this seem to be very productive in terms of preserving the material.

Of course there are audio sharing sites like Dime and Sugarmegs where a range of noncommercial recordings can be found, but the process of uploading them is probably of doubtful legality in most cases.

So no obvious way forward at this time - in contrast to the still photographs which have already received some useful discussion on a related thread A repository for your music pictures... ...


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Subject: RE: Making folk club recordings available
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 26 Apr 19 - 02:07 AM

punkfolkrocker 25 Apr 19 - 02:01 AM said

> Richard - sharing by cloud storage is relatively easy, but may be a strain on your time and broadband.

That is indeed one issue. Downloading many GB has become almost routine but most people's upload speeds are a lot slower. But there's also the matter of the storage space that has to be paid for, either in cash or by advertising.

> I'd be fairly certain some of the more experienced contibuters to this thread would welcome your USB sticks mailed to them so they could take care of the uploading for you....

Insofar as the issues of upload time and storage space, plus the original issue of copyright, are resolved, I can probably do the uploading myself as easily as anyone else.

Insofar as copyright may be an issue, it is mainly copyright in the performances. Nearly all the songs would have been either traditional or, if recently written, from writers like Steve who have no wish to enforce copyright.


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Subject: RE: Making folk club recordings available
From: Tony Rees
Date: 26 Apr 19 - 02:29 AM

RE my message above but one - to clarify, for "recordings (audio and/or video) of professional and semi-pro performers" I mean original recordings I have made - generally from the audience and/or the soundboard for audio. Usually without asking permission I'm afraid. Anyway they presently repose in my archive but without further action will probably go to the tip upon my demise... which does seem a bit of a waste to posterity.

By contrast, historic audience and soundboard tapes of some of my favourite bands and performers (think early Fairport, Sandy Denny, Albion Band and the like) have made it into the public domain via bootleg issues or tape sharing sites which is all the better for history, in my book, though I very much doubt that any permissions have been sought from the artists and/or composers involved.

Regards - Tony


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Subject: RE: Making folk club recordings available
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Apr 19 - 02:38 AM

Richard - I recently saved a link to a good article on best free and affordable cloud storage..
I'll try to remember to find and post it here..

If I am too over-enthusiastic, [perhaps verging on unrealistic..??]
it's because extra positivity and encouragement
is often required to counterbalance the usual expected mudcat negativity
which is intended to spoil good things from ever happening...

ie.. here's a crude generalisation based on 40 years of community music activity,
and coping with old-over officious miseries trying to stop the fun
just because they can...

"Someone wants to do something interesting and helpful,
I feel so important and powerful I'm compelled to tell everyone why they shouldn't..."


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Subject: RE: Making folk club recordings available
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Apr 19 - 02:47 AM

We've currently got a right one in our town,
she'll automatically raise objections to any social event
if she has the slightest suspicion it has any connection with local labour party members...


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Subject: RE: Making folk club recordings available
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Apr 19 - 03:29 AM

Can I just clear up my situation here - I'm sure some of you are aware of it already, but it cuts right across the board of both personally collected recordings and those accumulated otherwise

We were part of a Singers Workshop for many years - as a group, we threw in material to assist each other, from recordings made by others, as we were doing, club performances..... right through to each others records... for learning largely
Almost immediately it became obvious that it was growing so fast that it needed organising into something more than a pool of recordings, so we decided to make it an archive, Terry Yarnell became the first archivist - I took over shortly after
When the workshop finally died, Terry and I were left with copies of what amounts to probably one of the largest privately held archive of traditional song and music in existence
It is organised into sections, fully digitised and listed - and it is up for grabs for anybody interested and responsible to take it on

I have yet to explore the 'pn-line possibilities fully - some of our own recordings are already on-line - Clare County Library has put up our Clare songs and music and the Irish Traditional Music Archive have put up others.
Limerick University has mooted the idea of putting up our Travellers Collection and have agreed to accept our full collection and library as a bequest, for the use of their 'World Music Department'

Which leaves us with the problem of the material given to us by others or accumulated otherwise
These include club performances, recorded lectures, radio programmes by the hundreds and material given by other collectors

As far as club performances are concerned, as long as they weren't clandestinely recorded, I really can't see the problem
We have many recordings done at the Singers Club - Ewan and Peggy never raised an objection to being recorded, nor our passing things on.
If you ask a singer for permission to record, unless otherwise stated, I can see no reason in the world why you shouldn't share those recordings with others - what's Peter Bellamy going to do - come back and haunt you ?
In our case, the same goes for Seamus Ennis, Joe Heaney, Paddy Tunny, Tom McCarthy, Bobby Casey...... or all the wonderful and generous people who kept the songs and music alive to pass on - as far as I'm concerned, we have a responsibility to do just that
I suspect that many of you are approaching my age group - you need to come to terms with the future of what you hold - Kennedy and Bulmer needs to be remembered when you do that
As Walter Pardon once told us - "they're not my songs, they're everybody's"

"We've currently got a right one in our town, "
Don't know if your a 'Killing Eve' fan - Villanette is not to well at present, but I believe she's open to offers
Jim


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Subject: RE: Making folk club recordings available
From: Howard Jones
Date: 26 Apr 19 - 04:36 AM

Actually, I am fairly supportive of PRS, although I have found them inflexible to deal with. I am in favour of creative artists getting paid for their work. If people like Steve wish to give their work away for free that is their privilege, but I assume they have other sources of income. By charging the venue rather than the performer it removes the obligation on me to agree terms with the composers of songs I perform, which would be both onerous and impractical. The system is far from perfect, but in the world of commercial music where the material being performed is all copyright it works reasonably well. And if the bulk of the payments go to those whose music is most widely played that it probably to be expected, but from time to time I get £50 or so, which is very welcome for playing my own compositions, so it is not just Paul McCartney who benefits.

Where the system does not work well is in our world, where much of the material performed is either traditional or by composers who are not PRS members. The licensing system is inflexible - you pay the same fee for playing one copyright song as you do for 100. There is a justified sense in the folk world that we pay too much in licence fees with too little coming back.


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Subject: RE: Making folk club recordings available
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 26 Apr 19 - 04:57 AM

In instances like this I'm not interested in law or copyright. Like any moral person, I'm only interested in whether it could actually do any harm. No-one's proposing selling these things.

Can we safely assume that all of the hundreds of traditional singers archived in collections on the British Library website were aware that their singing would be available to "the whole world"? I very much doubt it. Yet there they are, and I'm very glad that I can access them.

Howard said: "So I don't think it can be assumed that those performers won't mind if these recordings are made public, although I suspect most won't be bothered, and many will be pleased and flattered."

Sure, we can't *assume* that literally every single person concerned would be happy about it. But if the *strong likelihood* is that most people would welcome it and we know how the internet works - any that are unhappy could always ask for them to be taken down - well I think you should go for it.


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Subject: RE: Making folk club recordings available
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Apr 19 - 05:31 AM

"I am in favour of creative artists getting paid for their work"
I would be if it was done even handedly and all-inclusively - neither is the case
It favours the most successful and it ignores the creative artistry that went into the making of our folk songs
Onnce you hang a price tag on creative art it ceases to be art and becomes a commodity
The folk scene was created to escape from that rat-race
Jim


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Subject: RE: Making folk club recordings available
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Apr 19 - 08:39 AM

I stated in a previous thread
that I believe artists deserve to earn from their published songs and recordings during their lifetime.
But the work should become public domain at a more reasonable time after their death.
Eg, no longer than the death of their surviving spouse,
or perhaps the 18th birthday of any children.
Whatever could be made to work for the artists immediate family for a sensible time.

A compromise that encourages - not prevents - the positive aspects of creative music performance and enjoyment
within complex and dynamic societies...

Far too many problems are caused by mega corporations who have no understanding of,
or care for living music culture;
bulk buying music rights as merely another lucrative asset in their portfolio.
Profiteering through enforcing draconian fee collecting regimes
that are simply legalised extortion and racketeering...

WEA and Sony are two main offenders immediately springing to mind,
and their collecting agencies who are more than likely incentivised
with hefty bonuses and commisions...
Currently they are waging war on popular part time music educators on youtube..

Obviously the reality is rights ownership and exploitationis becoming increasingly longer
due to the wealth and power of these corporations,
able to lobby and buy copyrights laws to suit their favour...

It's depresssing, and forces good ordinary people into situations
where they risk heavy legal penalties
simply for commiting the crimes
of sharing music to help others broaden their appreciation and education...

These music enthusiasts are clearly not the criminal gang professional bootleggers and counterfeiters
of overhyped music corporations/media propaganda...


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Subject: RE: Making folk club recordings available
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Apr 19 - 09:12 AM

Her's the article I saved a few days ago...

Best ways to share big files: Cloud sharing large folders made simple

ignore the survey cluttering the top of the page, and scroll down to where the article actually starts..

"If you've just recorded a home video or created the ultimate mix tape –
a digital version of that old chestnut, of course – no doubt you'll be eager to share it with your friends and family...
"


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Subject: RE: Making folk club recordings available
From: GUEST,Old Performer
Date: 26 Apr 19 - 10:36 AM

Aside from copyright, what nobody seems to be considering is the audio quality of the recordings. A lo-fi recording with badly placed mic(s) can render a good performance deceptively underwhelming. OK as a "field recording" as an aide memore for learning songs or tunes, probably not welcome for a pro or semi-pro performer. Always ask permission. If permission can't be got because the artists or their heirs/descendants are deceased or untraceable, the answer has to be taken as "no".


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Subject: RE: Making folk club recordings available
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Apr 19 - 10:43 AM

Theer is another, somewhat problematical aspect to this subject
During my life I have accumulated a large number of commercially produced albums of folk songs - some quite rare at the time or unobtainable in Britain,, virtually all now unavailable
For my own use I have digitised them all with the notes
When my friend, Tom Munnelly, died, his son digitised his large collection not with the notes, and distributed it to Tommy's friends because he believed that this is what he would have wanted.
This is a formidable collections of no-longer-available mateial
I assume the companies that issued these albums made what they weer going to make at the time and most of the performers did also (those who were paid)
What do I do with them ?
They will all end up deposited with ITMA or Limerick Uni, and be subject to the same restrictions as will any collection left in their care
It seems bloody-minded not to pass these on to those who might be interested (I do so anyway)
Wonder what people think
Jim


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Subject: RE: Making folk club recordings available
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Apr 19 - 10:59 AM

GUEST,Old Performer - agreed, these days there are no excuses for poor quality shoddy recordings..

The widest availability of cheap digital recorders in one form or another
enables anyone to make clear unmuffled distortion free recordings.
A few quick easy lessons in proper operation of these devices
will minimise handling and backround noise..

The results should be acceptable for most amateur purposes.

However, back in the days of cheap rubbish cassette recorders,
good recording quality was the exception..
If those surviving tapes are all we have to cherish.
Then even the most advanced software noise removal techniques
can't shine up a turd into a diamond.

But if we care enough about the artistic and historic importance,
then we do our best to tolerate hiss, tape drop outs, tape flutter, and all the rest of the audio garbage..

I just bought a cheap Sandy Denny CD of informal recordings in another artists house.
Every review emphasises how shite the sound quality is,
I've not got round to playing it yet.
But am prepared for the worst...


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Subject: RE: Making folk club recordings available
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Apr 19 - 11:01 AM

btw .. the answer certainly does not have to be taken as "no"..

Who are you to lay the law down...!!!???


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Subject: RE: Making folk club recordings available
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Apr 19 - 11:18 AM

Reminds me of the story of a very deaf Maud Karpeles listening to the cylinder recordings at C# House and smashing the ones she couldn't distinguish
There seems to be an unjustifiable assumption that we are talking about marketing these for general consumption _ I certainly am not
If anybody find collections of songs "underwhelming" perhaps they are listening for the wrong things
Jim


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Subject: RE: Making folk club recordings available
From: Jack Campin
Date: 26 Apr 19 - 12:01 PM

Count me as a NO.

I've been filmed or recorded on many occasions and I have a hard time thinking of even one I'd like to perpetuate. I like playing in noisy, chaotic environments anyway, where nobody would try to record anything, but even the occasions that made for sonic and visual perfection mostly led to recordings that don't communicate anything like what I wanted.

Not every performance needs to be frozen forever. What really matters in folk music is the process, not the product: the fact that it can be re-created at any time. Like the topical songs Jim Carroll likes to cite, where "if anybody farted, somebody made a song about it" - you can bet nearly all of them were crap and that the people who made them never wanted or expected them to be perpetuated. What is NOT crap, and IS worth perpetuating, is the cultural infrastructure that allows people to create new songs in that way.

You are not perpetuating the tradition by packaging it as if were popping products off a conveyor belt.


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Subject: RE: Making folk club recordings available
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Apr 19 - 12:32 PM

Jack - Surely it's up to each individual acting as an informed criticical 'consumer'
to determine what they personally want to listen to and enjoy,
learn from, or learn how not to..

It's all too complex for simplistic absolutist pronoucements...

Artists are often the worse judges of their own performances and creativity,
and their vanity & egos can make harsh unreasonable poorly considered decisions
on what they want witheld or destroyed on their death..

Deceased artist's relatives can be some of the most boneheaded and greedy custodians of an artist's estate..

Ill-informed interfering strangers hurling random dogmatic "thou shalt not"s
are just a pain in the arse...


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Subject: RE: Making folk club recordings available
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Apr 19 - 12:38 PM

It has to be down to the individual artists as you say
I would have thought that anybody who gave a diabolical performance after giving permission to record would have the sensse to withdraw that permission as soon as....
Jim


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Subject: RE: Making folk club recordings available
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Apr 19 - 12:46 PM

I enjoy audiophile pro pecorded and mastered recordings,
and also rough as a white dog turd home demos and rehearsal tapes..
..and anything else in between that helps shine a light on a favourite artists creative process and personality.
It's all valid on it's own terms..

Agreed, much of it is crap - but usually worth listening to at least once..

Only once have I ever been severly disapointed by a witheld out-take track that an artist was embarrased of..
But even that one is liked by other fans who got the chance to hear it...

Try telling Bruce Springsteen and Beatles fans they have too many bootlegs...

A recording of John Lennon clipping his toe nails
would probably lead to frenzied bidding at a memorabilia auction house...


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Subject: RE: Making folk club recordings available
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Apr 19 - 12:52 PM

Jim - 30ish years ago I worked at an Ozzy Osbourne concert
where he was hours late sobering up enough to get on stage
and his performance was terrible...

But that gig has probaly become legendary by now
and his fans would clamour for a bootleg,
or even an expensive official box set..

Go figure...???


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Subject: RE: Making folk club recordings available
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Apr 19 - 01:06 PM

Btw.. in such discussions as this, we're bogged down with facts versus opinion,
which gets even cloudier when morality is invoked...

However, one near as damn it fact
is that often an artist's demos are 'superior' to the finished product commercial LP release;
even if they are a bit hissy and muffled...

and some more emotionally dificult artists refuse to release their best work in their lifetime
for whatever troubled personal reasons...???

We can also think of philistine prim relatives who destroyed artist's unpublished works
for fear of shaming the family name...

History hates them...


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Subject: RE: Making folk club recordings available
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Apr 19 - 03:01 PM

WE had the opposite of what is being argued about heer on a number of occasions
Some of our early recordings in Clare were made in pub sessions - usually one of us with a recorder stood up and asked would it be ok to record - if anybody did, then the recorders were put away
When we produced a CD of Clare singers we used two particularly good songs from one of these sessions by singers who were long dead
We were called on by the nieces of one singer and asked if we were the ones who put "uncle Michael's on a CD
Somewhat alarmed, we said we were
The ladies asked if we would like the family recordings of their uncle
Jim


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Subject: RE: Making folk club recordings available
From: Jack Campin
Date: 26 Apr 19 - 03:03 PM

Listening to a recording that the person recorded didn't want made public is as prurient as putting a webcam in a toilet. Fuck the "consumer".


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Subject: RE: Making folk club recordings available
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Apr 19 - 03:11 PM

Jack - millions disagree.. it's you against the tide on this one...

It'd be easier trying to my mum to stop showing people my baby & toddler photos...


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Subject: RE: Making folk club recordings available
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Apr 19 - 03:12 PM

..to tell..


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Subject: RE: Making folk club recordings available
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Apr 19 - 03:19 PM

Jack - btw.. that recent excellent Young Tradition live CD...
The tape came to light only a few years ago...

If I recall, the young taper didn't ask for permission.
What if he had, but been told no [because of fragile egos, or mean minded bean counters]
then still did it on the sly anyway...

Who would condemn him.. it's a bloody good concert from 50 years ago...
and a fine addition to their legacy...


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Subject: RE: Making folk club recordings available
From: Tony Rees
Date: 26 Apr 19 - 03:29 PM

I believe from an artistic standpoint, the variation in delivery of a song or an instrumental rendition from one performance to another is the most fascinating part. I don't want to hear [artist x] perform a song that is a carbon copy of the recorded version, I am thrilled by the new interpretation and subtleties of delivery that live performance brings and might have been opportunistically captured by an enthusiast for posterity. No, I do not necessarily want to hear Sandy Denny sing *every other* performance of "Matty Groves" any more than she reportedly wished to keep on singing it, but among the live performances out there there are some I am very glad to hear.

What will the musical appreciators of 100 years time wish to hear, from a time before they were born? Nobody knows, but I do think we should not be throwing out such recordings as exist, whatever the circumstances of their collection. Do we throw away Van Gogh's or Picasso's early work because they later thought it was not very good or representative of their later efforts? No we do not, we cherish them as a window into the artist's development and creative process. Do we care that they might have been stolen from the artist's wastepaper basket, if that is the case?

If I had an unauthorised recording of Robert Johnson playing in a club in 1938 to complement his official recordings, would I be destroying it now on moral/ethical grounds? I think not, and collectors, other musicians and the general public might be just a little interested to know... who is to say that in 100 years, my live recordings of Dave Swarbrick, Vin Garbutt and Jez Lowe (to name a few) might not also be sought after - we just don't know. (Of course if there are many other similar performances on record then the vlue is diluted somewhat).

Just my 2 cents of course.

Regards - Tony


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Subject: RE: Making folk club recordings available
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Apr 19 - 03:40 PM

Tony - one of the 'endearing' things about mudcat,
is grumpy old blokes making unreasonable dogmatic pronoucements of personal opion,
quite often based on slim understanding of the topic being discussed...

'Unofficial' tapers have been a blessing to music culture,
and are much appreciated.. that is an objective fact..

long may they continue...


[I'm merely an apprentice grumpy old git...]


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Subject: RE: Making folk club recordings available
From: Tony Rees
Date: 26 Apr 19 - 04:22 PM

As Dylan Moran said in his comedy act, channelling a starving French artist waking up in the morning (after making love to his girlfriend and eating chocolate croissants): "And after my breakfast I must go and slash my paintings - they are so derivative - what was I theenking!"


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Subject: RE: Making folk club recordings available
From: Andy7
Date: 26 Apr 19 - 05:05 PM

This discussion is very much related to the old philosophical conundrum, immortalised in Star Trek: do the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one?

Let's take it to the extreme. Imagine that I've just given the best performance of any song, ever, in the history of the world, in a little local folk club singaround. (Not so difficult to imagine, I'll admit, if you ever have heard me sing; but that's not really relevant here!) Everyone present was moved to tears of absolute joy, and will talk about my perfect performance for the rest of their lives.

Well, unknown to me, my friend Pete just made a recording of that song on his smartphone ...

"You're going to do WHAT, Pete?"

"I'm going to go straight home and put my recording of your song on UsTube. Not for any benefit to me; but because everyone in the world MUST have the opportunity to hear your beautiful performance, Andy; it has to be saved for posterity."

"Pete, I really do not want you to do that; the song was just for the evening, for the moment. I'm absolutely delighted to hear that it brought joy to people at the singaround, that was what I hoped for; but I do NOT want a recording of it shared with the whole world. That would totally destroy the essence of what it was: one song, sung live, for one small audience, on a cold and wet weekday evening in a local pub; a special thing that belonged only in that particular time and place, and nowhere else."

"Andy, I am sorry, but I do have to do this. Your performance of that song is way bigger than you as a person. It will bring joy to millions! I really do not believe that, even though you were the performer, you have any right to deny that joy to so many people. You were given, by chance, the gift of your voice, and the skill to sing that song so amazingly. And I was given, by chance, the gift of a smartphone, in the right place and at the right time, with the opportunity to share your perfect song with the world!"

So, who holds the higher moral ground in this scenario, me or Pete? I really can't decide!


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Subject: RE: Making folk club recordings available
From: Tony Rees
Date: 26 Apr 19 - 05:30 PM

"one song, sung live, for one small audience, on a cold and wet weekday evening in a local pub" - well the performances I recorded were not quite in that category, they were in public venues, for audiences who had paid to hear a professional performance, by a professional (or semi-professional), paid act. So shades of grey here...


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Subject: RE: Making folk club recordings available
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Apr 19 - 05:49 PM

The ends justify the means...

But the meanies try to justify ending everything...


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Subject: RE: Making folk club recordings available
From: Tony Rees
Date: 26 Apr 19 - 06:07 PM

Well one thing is for sure, Sandy, Dave Swarbrick and Vin are no longer with us so there will be no more live recordings... we should treasure what we have...


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Subject: RE: Making folk club recordings available
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Apr 19 - 06:18 PM

The Sandy Denny CD with warnings of shite audio quality is "19 Rupert Street"
lesss than 4 and a 1/2 quid on amazon..

I don't know how bad it sounds because since I bought it in February
it's been tidied up somewhere before I had a chance to listen to it...

The Young Tradition CD is "Oberlin 1968"...


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Subject: RE: Making folk club recordings available
From: Tony Rees
Date: 26 Apr 19 - 07:51 PM

Hi PFR, all - You can preview tracks from "19 Rupert Street", and read editorial and audience reviews, at https://www.amazon.co.uk/Rupert-Street-Sandy-Denny-Campbell/dp/B0057MP51A - enough to get a taste for the audio quality and historic interest.

- Tony


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Subject: RE: Making folk club recordings available
From: Tony Rees
Date: 30 Apr 19 - 07:21 PM

Returning from slight thread creep - I have a probably otherwise unheard original live recording of the Albion Country Band (Hutchings, Carthy, Kirkpatrick, Harris, Nicol, Swallow) from the 1973 Norwich folk festival which I am about to transfer from cassette to digital file. I have offered it to Ashley Hutchings via his Facebook page so will see what happens. Ideally it should end up in some publicly accessible repository (courtesy of the original performers) for posterity but who knows...


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Subject: RE: Making folk club recordings available
From: GUEST,Some bloke
Date: 01 May 19 - 03:07 AM

We ask our booked artists if we can record the concert with a view to making CDs for sale of no more than two songs per artist (otherwise their own CDs don’t get sold) and preferably (if they sang them) traditional or written by the artist. These become raffle prizes and sold to subsidise the running of the club.

Many are ok with it. We record in very high quality through the main mixer and ambience mics and I spend hours mixing it down in post production. Some artists have included our recordings as live tracks on their own albums. Granted, one or two feel they are contracted not to and only one has said no based on personal choice.

If we get into discussing copyright and unauthorised recordings, bear in mind how many phones are busy recording. I’m delighted when a video of me appears on Facebook although I didn’t know I was being recorded but I’m sure Mick Jagger thinks differently. Most folk circuit performers like the publicity, and few are tied to litigious record labels these days.


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Subject: RE: Making folk club recordings available
From: Tony Rees
Date: 03 May 19 - 03:11 AM

I am reading Brian Hinton & Geoff Wall's authorised biography of Ashley Hutchings (vol 1) "The Guv'nor and the Rise of Folk Rock" (2002) and am re-acquainting myself with their chapter on the various incarnations of the Albion Country Band (of which more anon...) - Albions Mk1 and Mk2 never made a record, Albions Mk3 did but it was not released for 3 years as the band broke up immediately after recording it. RE Albions Mk1's first London appearance: "Fortunately a tape survives, and as we will find with the Albion Country Band, it is only because of fanatics hiding tape recorders under their pullovers that much of the story can be told at all." (p. 251).

Just sayin'...


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Subject: RE: Making folk club recordings available
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 May 19 - 03:56 AM

..so there is a good utilitarian reason for the clichéd folkie aran sweaters...???


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Subject: RE: Making folk club recordings available
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 03 May 19 - 04:14 AM

@Richard Mellish: after all the posts in this long thread it will seem a massive anti-climax if we don't actually get to hear any of the recordings you have made.

If you have uploaded any of them to the web, even for private or limited-invite listening, feel free to send me a PM letting me know where.


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Subject: RE: Making folk club recordings available
From: Tony Rees
Date: 14 May 19 - 03:42 PM

Re-reading this thread there are some interesting and fair points made. I think there is a distinction that can be drawn with on the one hand, informal, amateur music making that perhaps should not be shared with the world (if at all) except with the consent of the performers in question - who may not wish their efforts to be disseminated by the same means as more "professional" or polished works - and amateur recordings of professional acts which may be of some present or future cultural value to preserve. As punkfolkrocker says above:

"Unseen and heard archives of amateur recordings
are recognised by museums as invaluable assets
whose holders should be positively encouraged to share
what they have of our hidden national heritage..."

This is the category the majority of my holdings fall into, either as audience or soundboard recordings, unauthorised though they may be. So, I have dipped my toe in the water and let one out via Youtube here (quality is not fantastic but I at least enjoy listening to the performance again): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kW7tF_hvUz8 (my thanks to Colin Harper for doing the upload on my behalf). Maybe this is one solution (subject however to possible take-down notices for copyright infringement...). Dime (dimeadozen) is another route, though I am not really sure how that works and I have a feeling it is a lot more complicated for both uploaders and downloaders (having had no success to date on the latter front).

Regards - Tony


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Subject: RE: Making folk club recordings available
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 14 May 19 - 04:09 PM

> @Richard Mellish: after all the posts in this long thread it will seem a massive anti-climax if we don't actually get to hear any of the recordings you have made.

> If you have uploaded any of them to the web, even for private or limited-invite listening, feel free to send me a PM letting me know where.

Not done yet apart from the few of Bert Lloyd. I'm trying to keep too many balls in the air at present but should get round to uploading some recordings sooner or later. The issue of upload time and web space remains to be addressed, but considering the recording circumstances a lossy compression format such as MP3 probably wouldn't lose much.


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