uk folk clubs high standard

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Andy7
Date: 30 Apr 19 - 01:10 PM

"What insult ?
Straw man isn't a reference to you - it is a reference to your attributing to me something I haven't said"

Haha, it did sound a bit like an insult! But if you didn't mean it as such, I'll accept that.

Any way ... my original post didn't attribute anything to you. I didn't mention your name, my post didn't quote any of your statements, and nor did it even immediately follow any of your posts.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Apr 19 - 01:21 PM

"Haha, it did sound a bit like an insult! "
It really wasn't intended as such
A straw man is a decoy put up to divert attention - honest !!
"Any way ... my original post didn't attribute anything to you. "
Maybe not, but it is one of the regular ploys put up in these arguments
Ast to expect hearing folk songs in a folk club and people will suggest you expect only folk songs#Ask for basic standards and you are accused of demanding virtuoso singing
I wouldn't waste my time in museum clubs that only put on unaccompanied traditional songs - that would be purist

Dave, for the record - this is the posting I asked you to respond to
Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 04:50 AM

Jim

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Apr 19 - 01:43 PM

I have not made any personal insults, Jim. I was pointing out that your argument was all bluster and noise, not you. It has no substance, much like your reply to me. You are going on about straw men and at the same time attributing things to me that I have never said. I asked you to show us where I "put it up as proof of an improvement". Your reply makes no sense whatsoever and perfectly underlines the fact that you cannot show where I said any of the things you have attributed to me. For instance:

I am happy to have any music at folk clubs. Not true
I said Ed Sheeran was a folk singer. Not true
I put up an article as proof things were improving. Not true

Those are just the latest three. There have been umpteen before and, although I am a patient man, my patience is wearing thin.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Apr 19 - 01:46 PM

Anyway, more important (and more enjoyable) things than arguing about a minority genre on a minority interest forum await.

Game of Thrones :-)

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Apr 19 - 01:48 PM

Dave if your patience is wearing thin ,perhaps you would be good enough to remain quiet ,so that we can continue talking about the high standards found in some uk folk clubs, i would appreciate you doing that thankyou very much.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Apr 19 - 01:53 PM

I will continue to deny the comments attributed to me by Jim as long as he keeps making them up, Dick. Sorry if you have a problem with that but it is not my problem is it. Maybe you should ask Jim to stop making things up about me.

For what it's worth, I have been saying all along that I find that the folk clubs I attend all have very high standards. I agree with you. It is Jim that says they put on any old rubbish!

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: GUEST,Bignige
Date: 30 Apr 19 - 02:04 PM

We, over the last few years, have had so many clubs just fade away. A number of reasons, one of which, imho, is due to the unaccompanied singer situation. It is only of interest to other unaccompanied singers and is not likely to attract new people to Folk Clubs. We have had to stop booking guests because our audience is now so small it is not viable. In a few years I suspect Folk Clubs will not exist.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: GUEST,Matt milton
Date: 30 Apr 19 - 02:12 PM

The songs existed when there were zero folk clubs. the Popularity of folk in the 60s and some of the 70s strikes me as a cultural blip, no more to be mourned than Bebop or ska reggae. It seems crazy to expect folk clubs to exist in their thousands until the end of time. Does the same apply to other genres of music too? There aren’t classical music salons around now the way there was in 18th century Vienna, should we be bemoaning that as well?

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Apr 19 - 02:42 PM

"the Popularity of folk in the 60s and some of the 70s strikes me as a cultural blip, no more to be mourned than Bebop or ska reggae. "
Shame ion you Matt - these songs are timeless and they still resonate - far mor that the spit-out-when-you've finished pop pap
The oldest mentioned song in the folk repertoire was mentioned in the 13 hundreds and was still being sung into the mid seventies - wanna name a reggae or ska song that can match that ?
It's like saying Shakespeare's had his day
If we in the mid twentieth century could take as muuch pleasure as we did from centuries old songthen there's no reason that cannot continue to happen
If you don't like folk song and feel them irrelevant then stand aside for those who feel differently
What the hell are we posting to a site that describes itself aas mudcat does if the folk arts are "irrelevant"

"I have not made any personal insults"
The you'd better report the person who sent " As usual it is all bluster and noise" in your name
I've posted the link I referred to and you'v repeat your accusation that I am a liar
"I will continue to deny the comments attributed to me by Jim as long as he keeps making them up, Dick."
Haveing denied you insulted me, you've just done it again
I think we're finished here
Jim

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Iains
Date: 30 Apr 19 - 02:44 PM

In the sixties and seventies beer was relatively cheaper, there were far more pubs and many more people went out drinking regularly. Central heating, colour TV, ready access to electronic media, the increased price of beer, changing mores of society all played a part in the diminishing public participation in folk music. Times change, so do people. In essence a folkclub plays a fossilised genre. It's popularity peaked at a moment in time and then decayed. It was probably nothing at all to do with how the genre was defined or how well it was presented, the world simply moved on. Folk music existed long beforefolk clubs and no doubt will survive in some form when the last folk club closes.
In terms of a rigid definition of folk music a folk club is a very artificial construction used to display/present/nurture the genre. It robs the medium of it's spontaneity and probably it was a middle class thing displaying the compositions of the working class.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: GUEST,Matt milton
Date: 30 Apr 19 - 03:28 PM

Jim, I said the popularity of folk clubs once, not the existence of folk itself. two different things. The popularity of it isn’t really something you can control and lamenting the fact that folk Isn’t as popular as it was in the 60s is as pointless as lamenting that children aren’t taught Latin in school.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: GUEST,Matt milton
Date: 30 Apr 19 - 03:33 PM

Jim, the song from the 1300s clearly doesn’t need folk clubs. It survived without their existence for much longer than folk clubs are likely to exist

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Apr 19 - 05:01 PM

it sounds to me Jim, you've had a lucky deliverance from degenerate gits like us.

Well done!!

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Apr 19 - 05:05 PM

" As usual it is all bluster and noise"

As I said, Jim. That is a reference to your argument, not you. If you see it as personal, maybe that is signs of a guilty concience?

"I will continue to deny the comments attributed to me by Jim as long as he keeps making them up, Dick."

No insult there either. Prove that I have said any of the things you accuse me of and I shall apologise. Again, you know you are wrong and will just not admit it.

I can confidently predict that you will just post more obfuscation and not give us any proof of what I am accused of.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: GUEST,Bignige
Date: 30 Apr 19 - 06:02 PM

Of course the music will always be there. Evidence the demise of Folk Clubs and the rise of the Open Mics the music is still there just the platform changes. I'm sure the mention of Open Mics will send the Folk world into an apoplectic fit, but they are popular not restricted to one genre and more importantly attract the young.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Apr 19 - 06:10 PM

well this is it...open mics are for people whose culture and community haven't disappeared.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 30 Apr 19 - 07:48 PM

Just back from my local folk club, which has been going for over 30 years and showing no signs of dying. Great night with one of Scotland's finest female singers, Sylvia Barnes, and brilliant guitarist, Sandy Stanage, who accompanied some, but not all, of her songs. Fine accompanist, never letting the guitar get in the way of the song, which always shone through. The songs were not all traditional, even though Sylvia is one of the best interpreters of traditional song: a very varied programme. THIS is the way forward.
And please, please can we stick to the topic and stop the puerile personal spats going on here? You are driving people away from Mudcat: you know who you are!

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 May 19 - 02:24 AM

Seems like when a thread degenerates to personal abuse and flippancy it's run its course
Indifference seems to have won the day here
Jim

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 May 19 - 02:37 AM

the lowest standard in guest booking clubs that i have come across ,has been in clubs full of singer songwriters , they were competent on their guitars, but frequently sang in mock american accents and their song writing efforts were samey., often singing in the same key,and same tempo subject matter nothing but personal relationship songs
OF COURSE THAT DOES NOT MEAN ALL SINGER SONGWRITERS ARE POOR.BUT this has been my experience,I remember thinking at the time if only they could write like MacColl, or Lowe

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 May 19 - 02:07 PM

In an earlier post I said “if Dick were to come to our club etc.”   His comments re Martin Carthy and Steve Turner say it all.
my comments were factual neither wished to sing without accompaniment, they are both very good performers who i have booked at my festival www.fastnetmaritime.com.
I WOULD NOT PLAY AT SOME BLOKES CLUB IF HE ASKED ME TO . I PREFER TO PLAY CLUBS LIKE THE WILSONS CLUB AND PETE COES CLUB.Iknow from exoerience that the standard of singing at the aforementioned clubs is high
Some bloke claims to run a folk club I,doubt if he does at all, who are you? hiding behind anonymity and where is this mythical club judging from your puerile comments about trad singers with trousers up to your tits,are you Ian Mathers

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 02 May 19 - 02:52 AM

@ Bignige

You have a point about 'the music' being always there, though for how long? But my understanding is that Jim, the main critic of modern folk clubs, isn't really interested in the music side of things, it is the lyrics that he is focused on.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 May 19 - 03:31 AM

"Jim, the main critic of modern folk clubs, isn't really interested in the music side of things, it is the lyrics that he is focused on."
You can't have one without the other - I do believe there's a balance to be struck between the two
As far as instrumental music, I don't know enough of what's happening in the UK in that respect, but our work has included recording musicians at length, playing and talking
We also recorded masses of lore, particularly from Travellers
Some of the rarest recordings we made were of a few of the last of the big storytellers, particularly in Clare
We would have included dance if it wasn't for the fact that the dancers here kept demanding that you got up and joined them - they really didn't deserve that !
All these different aspects of peoples' culture are interrelated, that's why they fly under the same 'folk' flag
Change one and you put a question mark over the rest
The term 'folk' came into use as a reference to the lore that was being collected by antiquarians like Tombs, Chambers, Halliwell, Brand and Hone
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 02 May 19 - 04:16 AM

@ Jim Carroll

'I don't know enough of what's happening in the UK'...

Yet you announced yourself as the 'spectre at the feast', and have spent much of this thread expressing your view that English folk clubs have dwindled in number due to a) not having any 'folk' on and b) poor performance standards, though, as you have emphasised, not meaning this in any 'elitist' sense.

Perhaps you ought to have accepted the invitation proferred in the intitial thread?

By the way, and apologies for not being clear, in previous discussions you have expressed a view that the tunes to folk songs were relatively important, that it is the words that appeal. I was suggesting that the music is crucial to a 'song' in support of Bignige, who said that people would always make music, which I hope is true. I apologise again if this is not clear.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 May 19 - 04:44 AM

"Yet you announced yourself as the 'spectre at the feast', "
I said in regard to English instrumental music - something I have little experience of
I know well enough what happened in the clubs because I was involvd when they began to decline
What you (in the collective sense) have told me is enough to convince me that things have got far worse
I do get to the UK - my family lives there, and, from what I've seen first hand shows my impressions to be about right
When researchers start arbitrarily re-defining 'folk' and folk clubs stop putting on folk to the extent they have, while people on this forum tell me that it isn't relevant any more, 'fings ain't what they used to be' is inescapable
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 May 19 - 04:54 AM

Things are not what they used to be. Bringing us back to the point of the thread, UK folk clubs have a very high standard nowadays. They have to to keep going.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 May 19 - 05:45 AM

"UK folk clubs have a very high standard nowadays."
That's a very firm pronouncement Dave
Do you have anything to back that up ?
The fact that most of them no longer involve themselves in folk song and there are not enough of them is another matter altogether
Jim

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: GUEST
Date: 02 May 19 - 05:50 AM

"UK folk clubs have a very high standard nowadays". UK ? What do you know about folk clubs in Wales, Scotland and N.Ireland ?

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 May 19 - 05:57 AM

That's a very firm pronouncement Dave
Do you have anything to back that up ?

Errrr, yes. Is that not what Dick said and what the thread is about?

Good point, Guest. I only know clubs in England. The thread was about UK clubs so I stuck with that but I shall change my statement to English folk clubs have a very high standard. Maybe someone with more knowledge of the rest of the UK will comment on the rest.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Vic Smith
Date: 02 May 19 - 05:57 AM

The fact that most of them no longer involve themselves in folk song and there are not enough of them is another matter altogether.

Do you have anything to back that up ?

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 May 19 - 06:23 AM

Pretty well were things were heading when when I left, discussions with friends still interested and arguments and discussions I have had on forums such as this
You might throw in what's happening - or not happening in print
When people argue as vociferously for something, as they have here, you can safely assume that
You might throw in that we now have a bunch of researchers that seem to have forgotten the identifiable uniqueness of folk song
Unless there's been a sudden renaissance, I'd say it was a done deal
That there aren't enough of them goes without saying - even the other side seems to have acknowledged that on (and put up the excuses as to why there are not)
"Scotland and Wales"
I try to avoid commenting on their situation - all I have on Scotland is sparse
Jim

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Vic Smith
Date: 02 May 19 - 06:46 AM

I try to avoid commenting on their situation - all I have on Scotland is sparse
I would think that there is a good case for saying that all you have on England is sparse - or hearsay. Your location means that you very rarely attend them but you still refute the evidence of those who go to folk clubs regularly.
That there aren't enough of them goes without saying
If quantity = quality then you have a case but I would suggest that the opposite is the case. Now that all the folk comedians, guitar noodlers, introspective singer-songwriters etc. have moved on, my experience suggests that in the reduced numbers of clubs there is a larger percentage of hardcore enthusiasts for the tradition whilst at the same time a feeling that variety is needed to make an evening entertaining.
Not everything is right with the surviving clubs and who would expect it to be. My main bugbear is the appearance of music stands and words on hand-held devices. Usually I have the courage to tell that singer that they would put over the song better if they were fully in command of the words.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 May 19 - 11:09 AM

"I would think that there is a good case for saying that all you have on England is sparse"
I think I'd say that if I was defending some of the positions here

I've told you what was happening when I left and I've been told by others
Now we no longer have the connection that the magazines and broadcasts once gave us we have little else to go on
I’ve been told over and over again the state of the clubs during these arguments – the poor standards, the failure to live up to the claim of being folk – the tearing up of the grass roots…. “all human folk is there” as the News of the World nearly used to say
You obviously see fit to dismiss the arguments being put up during these discussions defending the disappearance of clubs, the standards and the songs that are now passing for folk
I don't I'm afraid
Out of the mouths....
No - quantity doesn't equal quality - I've never argued it does, but if a music is to survive there needs to be enough people involved to mke that happen
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 02 May 19 - 11:21 AM

>>>>>I’ve been told over and over again the state of the clubs during these arguments – the poor standards, the failure to live up to the claim of being folk – the tearing up of the grass roots…. “all human folk is there”<<<<< Jim Carroll


You have been told over and over again the exact opposite. Sheesh! What does it take? We really are wasting our time here. Me out.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 May 19 - 11:29 AM

All music is folk music; I ain't never heard no horse....aaawww, fuggeddit! ;-)

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 May 19 - 12:39 PM

I’ve been told over and over again the state of the clubs during these arguments – the poor standards, the failure to live up to the claim of being folk

No Jim. You have been told that by some and the exact reverse by many others. You choose to believe the ones that pander to your underlying bias, which we all do. But to argue that you believe clubs are poor quality and do not present folk music on a thread that says the opposite, started by a folk singer that actually performs at clubs is a bit like going into a synagogue eating a bacon butty.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 May 19 - 01:35 PM

"No Jim. You have been told that by some and the exact reverse by many others."
Enough to indicate that the scene is in a pretty bad shape, which was one of teh issues that was brought up all those years in 'Folk Review (Crap Begets Crap)
It's pretty obvious when those who don't agree with you that reading from phons and crib sheets is one of the issues - that practice has not only been accepted but defended
Learnin the songs you are singing is a pretty basic expectation for any audience
Will you stop this insulting "underlying bias" - I was on the scene when things began to slither down the pan - not a "bias" - an observation
You accuse me (unjustifiably) of insulting you yet you feel free to insult me
Give us a break Dave
Jim

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: GUEST
Date: 02 May 19 - 01:54 PM

"uk folk clubs high standard" - based on a sample size of 3.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 May 19 - 01:57 PM

I think the truth lies between the two points of view, I mentioned high standards in three clubs i have been to recently,Ihave also come across clubs where buddy holly songs seemed to be lavour of the day among floor singers and alsoi a club where there were the floor singers very poor singer songwriters, i also mentioned dartford folk c;lub where the standard was high but most of the songs were carter family or bluegrass, i also wento the cellar upstairs a few years ago and the floorsingers were tom paley and peta webb and ken hall, and a guy who had potential but wasjust beginning on the banjo, overasll a high standard. there is imo a lack of respect amongst a minority of performers for the roots of the music

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 May 19 - 03:23 PM

"I think the truth lies between the two points of view,"
Of course it does Dick, it's the proportion of good and bad that's the unknown, but even that makes little difference when the reported number of clubs is so low
Jim

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 May 19 - 03:24 PM

There we have the voice of reason. The truth lies somewhere between the 2. We disagree on many things, Dick, but I am wholeheartedly behind that one. I was at Skipton a few weeks back and the floor singers included Nick Dow and Tom Lewis so it is not unusual to get that level of support.

Guest - It is not a sample size of 3. We have the 3 that Dick mentions. The 3 I go to regularly. The many mentioned by many other posters on Mudcat. The dozens I visited when I was 'on the road' some years back. I suggest you do a bit of homework before you fire off any more snide remarks.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 02 May 19 - 03:27 PM

Come on, Dave. Surely you can recognise trolling by now!

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: GUEST
Date: 02 May 19 - 03:40 PM

Original post : "I have played two folk clubs within the last week where the standard of floor singers and tradtional singing were high, they were the welly club at wolvistion teesside, asnd the Ryburn folk club run by PETE AND SUE COE The week before that i played Norwich folk club again high standards of singers playing trad songs.
with the greatest respect i advise Jim Carroll to visit these clubs next time he is in the UK".
3.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 02 May 19 - 03:43 PM

In short
Fewer folk clubs for a variety of mainly economic reasons.

Many more other outlets for folk music, many producing a high standard.

There are a few places where phones and cribs are used but they are few and far between and they don't affect the overall standard.

This is my experience mainly in Yorkshire.

Typical hotbeds, York, Sheffield, Ryburn, Teesside, Hull, Whitby. Apologies to those parts I'm not aware of.
Other places where I know there is a strong representation, Hampshire, Sussex, Surrey, Suffolk, Norfolk, East Lancashire, Newcastle, and I'm sure there are many others I'm not aware of.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 May 19 - 04:03 PM

I like to give the benefit of the doubt, Steve, but you are probably right.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 May 19 - 04:11 PM

why are we arguing?

Jim is entitled tohis opinions and everyone else is enrirled to theirs.

what's difficult about that situation?

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: GUEST,paperback
Date: 02 May 19 - 04:23 PM

>why are we arguing?

That what youse guys do, Big Al, (that and drown interesting American posters under a deluge of frivolous BS).

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Vic Smith
Date: 02 May 19 - 04:37 PM


Jim is entitled tohis opinions and everyone else is enrirled to theirs.

what's difficult about that situation?
I think that on this point, Al, you are missing the point. Of course, Jim is entitled to his opinions and I cannot see anywhere where this entitlement is rejected or even questioned. The objections are to the way he goes about stating them with unsupported authority that seems to raise the hackles. His opinions come over as authoritative facts rather than the opinions which they actually are. To challenge his statements is to open your own statements to denigration.... and as you say, we are all entitled to our opinions.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 May 19 - 04:57 PM

drown interesting American posters under a deluge of frivolous BS

What? And American posters never indulge in frivolous BS? What dimension is that in?

:D tG

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: GUEST,paperback
Date: 02 May 19 - 05:06 PM

Dave the Grom: foxtrot oscar

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 02 May 19 - 05:25 PM

Perhaps, just perhaps, a person seeking to establish that their view is objective/factual as opposed to being biased, and that to accuse them of bias is to insult them, them would be more convincing if their view was not expressed in emotive, if not positively insulting metaphorical language like 'things began to slither down the pan.'