uk folk clubs high standard

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 29 Apr 19 - 10:03 AM

Iains 29 Apr 19 - 03:52 AM

> Could it be that today the folk scene has many more participants rather than passive audiences? Hence the demand for more varied venues and decline of the conventional stage, performer, audience of yore.<

My perception is the opposite: formerly more clubs operating what might now be termed singarounds, and latterly more venues with separation between performers on stage (with amplification) and audience. However that may only reflect the venues that I have happened to attend over the years.

> Times change as does the traditional performer and audience.
Anyone can afford a guitar today,this makes participation far easier. (My attention span and interest in unaccompanied singing is severely limited. imperfections in voice, delivery, inflection, etc, etc have no place to hide when there are no additional instruments) Strictly a personal view,but I suspect shared by others.<

Definitely not shared by me!

You are assuming that possession of a guitar is both necessary and beneficial. Writing again from my own experience, for every performer who uses a guitar to good effect, enhancing the performance, there are many more who never bother to do more than strum (if indeed they have ever learnt to do any more). It may perhaps help to hide the imperfections in their singing, but only by the even greater limitations in their playing.

It has been said on other threads here that any accompaniment is a distraction from the words. A good accompaniment enhances more than it distracts, but for that it does need to be good. Even some performers who are competent as musicians and can do much more than strum their guitars devote too much brainpower to the "accompaniment" and not enough to their singing, causing some words to be lost.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Apr 19 - 10:57 AM

"goilin club in ireland banning instrumental accompaniment,"
Their choice and a pretty reasonable one in my opinion
I found it interesting that, when Christie Moore was asked to perform at a Goilin event commemorating Frank Harte and was invited to use his guitar, he refused in deference to the club policy - he never brings his guitar to the club
It seems some performers respect club policy while others just moan about it

The guitar isn't often seen in the singing venues I've attended because the singers and audience are quite happy to listen to unaccompanied songs (that is their tradition - as it it in Britain)
A good accompanist well follow the song and not dominate or distract from it - that takes hard work and dedication - all too often lacking in my experience
However, most traditional songs don't need accompanying, as I am now finding as I no longer have an accompanist
Working though my large repertoire, I haven't found a single song I am no longer unable to sing
You can sing anything as long as you are prepared to put in the work - the more work, the better you sing
Jim

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 29 Apr 19 - 12:32 PM

Still not following Jim's logic. So there is, he says, a demand for 'folk' as he defines it (and I am fully aware that Jim himself is aware of differing definitions) but that some clubs are flying false colours and claiming to be folk when they are not and this is resulting in a decline in the number of 'proper' folk clubs. It still makes no sense.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 29 Apr 19 - 12:48 PM

I am coming to the view that there was a 'revival', involving folk clubs at which unaccompanied singing of songs was the in thing and that this fashion faded. At the same time, a much wider definition of 'folk' became common and so 'folk clubs' featured a wider range of music. Some people didn't like this, some did. Times change.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: r.padgett
Date: 29 Apr 19 - 01:02 PM

"A Punter is not a word I like in relation to folk gatherings"

Immaterial to this - people going to a folk club are entitled to get what the club calls itself

People going to their Folk club will I suspect get what they are used to

How can you object to the word punter if you don't object to a club calling itself "folk" when it doesn't do just that ?

You still have NOT stated what YOU deem to be a Folk song ~ please I am confused by your lack of clarity

Naming a handful of clubs that do when the scene has diminished by at least a thousand is meaningless ~ WHEN did you last go to a Folk song gathering of any description and what is/was its format ?

I have told you that the Folk scene that you KNEW has changed as every thing does and the youngsters want what THEY want not the dinosaurs like you and me

Concerts are where people go to be sang to and entertained, at - as I said, the club scene has lost its grass roots aspect

~the CLUB scene may have but the broader scene has not lost its grass roots ~ they have and love to continue to sing traditional and similar songs

Any half decent scene can exist without guests or the occasional guest ~ totally agree!


The malaise has even spread to the researchers where folk aint folk anymore among them as well thanks to arbitrary re-definitions

What malaise? start thinking in terms of what we have NOW GOT ~ see what I say WHY we have the present scene! please

NOW Jim Carroll where should WE be? and what are YOU either wanting it to be or are YOU going to DO about it??

You really are quite tiresome now


Pretending that all is well isn't helping Ray

We have no control of time, progress or change Jim ~you cannot think that surely??

Ray

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Apr 19 - 01:14 PM

Crazy conclusion
The clubs, unaccmompanied and accompanied based began to close not because one o the other - bad performances and disappearances of any kind of folk song drove the audiences away
It's only lately that all the other stuff has suddenly become "folk" - which of course, it isn't
These are excuses
People just gave up looking for the clubs - that doesn't mean they stopped liking ot respecting folk song
You still refuse to respond to the wider implications of having driven folk song from the scene
The clubs weer set up to present a specific type of music and became subject to a hostile takeover
That it is nigh impossible to discuss folk song without being subjected to personal abuse "folk police' Folk fascist' 'finger in ear' 'purist' 'narrow' 'trenchant' intransident'
That's as hostile as it gets
Folk song is among the best and intensely researched of all the musical arts yet the revival is dominated by clubs that call themselves 'folk' but put on something else entirely
That's what doesn't make sense
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: r.padgett
Date: 29 Apr 19 - 01:24 PM

I cannot understand anything of YOUR answer to my questions above

Are you still getting to any folk songs sessions anywhere?


What "other stuff" do you refer to?

Once we know what "other stuff" is we may have a clue as what is getting your goat

People just gave up looking for the clubs - that doesn't mean they stopped liking or respecting folk song ~ What are you on about??

The clubs were set up to present a specific type of music and became subject to a hostile takeover

Clubs set up to present what specific type of music? ~now this is vital I think to knowing what you ARE on about, please explain

Hostile take over? by whom?

Ray

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Apr 19 - 01:29 PM

Sorry Ray -cross posted
I have got tired of stating what I mean by a folk club - it is, always was, and still should be a place where someone can go and listen to folk songs or contemporary one created using folk forms
If I worried about what modern kids though I would long have given up reading Dickens and Hardy or watching Shakespeare plays or seeking out good films
I regard folk songs as important - if they don't they have missed out on something and have my sympathy - it doen't make folk song any the less important
If I wanted to be a sheep I'd hang a bell around my neck and get my hair cut regularly
Jim

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Apr 19 - 01:58 PM

Ray
Whatever this mysterious "wider definition of folk song" is (nobody has yet explained or even agreed what it is, unless you can define it and show it to be as culturally and historically important as folk song as researched and internationally accepted , your only reason for promoting it has to be an opportunistic one of putting bums on seats
That is cultural vandalism of the most basic kind
"Hostile takeover by whom?"
By those who don't give a toss about people's culture - that's whom
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Apr 19 - 02:39 PM

Jim i was not moaning just poining out that i am so wonderful that i can do what steve turner or martin carthy cannot do ,not only am i absolutely feckin spectacularly brilliant i am also modest

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Apr 19 - 02:45 PM

Dunno abut Steve Turner but I've heard Martin Carthy making a grand job of singing unaccompanied - personally, I prefer him doing so - less long pauses for displays of guitar playing
Jim

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 29 Apr 19 - 02:58 PM

AS stated over and over by many people on these threads...There are many many reasons why the numbers of folk clubs have declined in the UK.

Just ONE of those reasons recently hinted at, more and more people interested in folk song are desirous of actually performing, at whatever level (If you think that's a bad thing that's your problem not ours) rather than sitting there passively listening. Again other developments have facilitated this. The person who mentioned cheaper guitars was only giving one example.

In light of that consider the following

Folk club: half a dozen people, often fewer, get to perform in the usual 3-hour slot.

Singaround: Everyone who wants to gets to perform, even in less formal situations, for the duration of the session.

Session: Everyone reasonably competent gets to perform for all of the duration of the session.

This is a general overview so please don't argue that your little neck of the woods doesn't fit into this pattern.

Those who prefer to be passive and listen can attend numerous concerts organised, or even listen to/watch their favourite performers online.

At good festivals like Whitby/Sidmouth and even most of the weekenders you can do all of these to your heart's content.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: GUEST,Cj
Date: 29 Apr 19 - 03:55 PM

Problem is, generations have been bought up to believe the word 'folk' means, at best, Bob Dylan and his decendents, and at worst, anyone with an acoustic guitar. So it doesn't really matter what people like Jim (and myself) consider to be 'folk music'. The rest of the world has bolted. The word itself has gone through the folk process and now means something completely different. Funny, eh?

But - the tradition still remains, the songs still remain. It's just they're sharing their name with all sorts of other types of music. Perhaps the solution would be for 1954 folk music to have a new term, what ever that would be.

Carrols?

No, I could see why that could get confusing.

Whilst I'm here, I totally agree with Christy Moore not taking his guitar to a no-guitar club. There are plenty of guitar clubs, afterall. Mostly full of people singing Brown Eyed Girl.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Apr 19 - 04:06 PM

Jim, my point was they chose not to , i am a goody two shoes i follow the rules and ican DO a night singing unaccompanied , the other two clearly did not feel totally confident without their props/instruments, these are facts

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Apr 19 - 05:47 PM

I think Jim is repeating and/or developing what seems to me to be an illogical explanation for the decline in the number of folk clubs, which I shall quote:

"The clubs, unaccmompanied and accompanied based began to close not because one o the other - bad performances and disappearances of any kind of folk song drove the audiences away"

The idea is still in this version of the argument that a reason for the clubs folding was that they did not include folk song as a 'genre', irrespective of the quality of performance, which is deemed to be a different issue.

I repeat my view that this is illogical because if there was a demand (and on Jim's view it was not solely bad performance at issue) then there would be no need to close. The solution to the problem would be to supply the required kind of music. Or is Jim saying that what was on offer was at one and the same time badly performed and not 'folk'?

I think Cj is right about the word 'folk' having been through a 'folk process' of sorts, though commercial factors, not usually seen as 'folk' probably played a part.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 29 Apr 19 - 05:53 PM

Sorry, that last post was me.

But in any case, it also seems to me that on one view the whole idea of 'folk' being performed in clubs isn't a very 'folk' idea. Did the ancient elite who, according to Child, wrote the oldest ballads perform them in 'clubs'? I think not.

Steve Gardam's latest post made some interesting distinctions between types of events: all of these are likely to be attractive to people interested in folk music, but none of them seem to be particularly 'authentic' in terms of the original contexts in which such music is thought to have been performed. I am not saying this is in any sense 'wrong' or 'inappropriate', but just noticing it.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 30 Apr 19 - 02:43 AM

I think folk clubs have not had it easy these last few years. With pubs closing/ changing landlords every few weeks/ charging for the venue you can see why clubs have had to go for more moneymaking nights rather than nights which encourage new performers. All credit to those who give up a lot of time to organise such dos.
FloraG.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 30 Apr 19 - 02:43 AM

I think folk clubs have not had it easy these last few years. With pubs closing/ changing landlords every few weeks/ charging for the venue you can see why clubs have had to go for more moneymaking nights rather than nights which encourage new performers. All credit to those who give up a lot of time to organise such dos.
FloraG.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: r.padgett
Date: 30 Apr 19 - 02:44 AM

"Steve Gardham's latest post made some interesting distinctions between types of events: all of these are likely to be attractive to people interested in folk music, but none of them seem to be particularly 'authentic' in terms of the original contexts in which such music is thought to have been performed. I am not saying this is in any sense 'wrong' or 'inappropriate', but just noticing it"

Steve's post is a good statement as to how the "folk" scene is currently
organised and fractionalised ~in most cases "audience" is also welcome depending upon the space in the pub or whatever ~ unless there is guest artist there is usually no charge (or will be specified)

Presently guests are usually classified as paid full time professionals of semi professionals (making a living at folk is problematic) professionals are a different breed, usually long serving artist who attract dedicated or interested audience or young thrusters
who may have been to appropriate University their success is Not Guaranteed

Artist who complain about "folk clubs" not booking them CANNOT blame folk clubs ~they whoever they are should try running their OWN folk club first ~ particularly the "Young thruster"

Ray

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Apr 19 - 02:53 AM

Ray,to quote william shakespeare, some are born great some achieve greatness some have greatness thrust upon them,
such is my burden, ray, do you know any old ladies who would like me to thrust my greatness upon them

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Apr 19 - 03:07 AM

"Did the ancient elite who, according to Child, wrote the oldest ballads perform them in 'clubs'? I think not. "
Totally immaterial
There was no elite, from what I can gather - people sang and made songs at social gatherings - In Ireland it wwas at specifically organised events (house dances, crossroads dances, m cuirds (pro. coors) where neighbours would meet in each others homes to sing, play, dance, tell stories, swap news....
Singing was often a small (and sometimes not very welcome) part of a house or crossroads dance - it was considered an interruption to the proceedings by some dancers and the singers often found it restrictive and difficult to get the necessary attention for sometimes long songs among a group of socialising people, there for pleasure

Sam Larner once spoke about the singing that went on at his local, The Fisherman's Return and at the fishermen's singing competitions when they met up in strange ports - he told Charles and Ewan, "the serious singing was done at home or at sea"   (where the singers could get quiet and attention)
I know from interviewing singers that it was sometimes at these small gatherings that songs were made - we have descriptions of them doing so
Ieland has a huge, largely unexplored repertoire of locally made songs made to cover local events as they occurred, from ambushes during the War o Independence, to local drownings, shipwrecks... to drunken pub crawls and comments on the railway service.

Those days are long gone - the clubs were a compromise to fill their loss and they worked - you have hi-jacked them and robbed folk song of an important platform - that's what you need to address
These are just the type of evasive wiggles politicians make when they don't want to face facts

I was there at the fall of the clubs - my visits to them declined rapidly from sometimes five times a week to, eventually the two I was involved in where I knew I would hear folk songs instead of the somewhat superficial stuff that was being passed off as folk
The editor of 'Folk Review' wrote and article on the declining state of the clubs which was taken up over several issues and spread from noisy audiences and seedy premises to lowering standards of performance and non folk songs

How people organise their clubs is their own business - hopefully they do so to suit local circumstances
The one constant used to be that you went to a folk club to hear folk songs or songs that have been made using folk styles
The festivals I went to were usually showcases for the best - I heard Jeannie, and The Stewarts, and some of the greats there, but on the whole, I found them impersonal, uncomfortable, and often cliquish - they were never a substitute for the clubs

You really do need to address the damage that has been done by using folk clubs as a cultural dustbin - stop making excuses
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Apr 19 - 03:24 AM

Folk clubs are the best platforms for folk song performance because people go to listen , people go to opera and classical concerts to listen.The latter show respect for the performers, and respect for the material
they also go to be entertained, that means thought about presentation as well as performance of song.
When i giGged at THE WILSONS CLUB AND AT PETE COES CLUB,There was a high standard, this is down to high standard of resident singers as one would expect from Pete Coe and The Wilsons, what i believe happens is that other singers then up their own standard, both of those clubs were tradtional based

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Andy7
Date: 30 Apr 19 - 03:49 AM

I can think of at least 8 good folk clubs within easy driving distance of me in south Hampshire. All of them are very welcoming to unaccompanied singers of traditional songs, as well as being welcoming to other kinds of music. I've heard, and learned, quite a number of traditional folk songs through visiting some of these clubs regularly over the years.

But I very much doubt that, if I set up a new club exclusively for unaccompanied singers of traditional songs, any members of the existing clubs would desert them for mine. In fact, I wouldn't even go to it myself, as I love the variety of music in the existing clubs.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Apr 19 - 04:10 AM

fair enough, but you see andy, i am versatile and can do either, i am also fantastically handsome, i reckon i would also make the trains run on time

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 30 Apr 19 - 04:28 AM

As I remember you used to have to give me a lift because the trains didn't run on time! (in that green Van with dodgy timing) I also remember you used to get all the girls instead of me! Nobody said life was fair! I still haven't forgiven you, (for the dodgy van that is)

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Apr 19 - 05:04 AM

Nick , you are very good at singing and playing but now a new talent telling fairy stories.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Apr 19 - 05:09 AM

" if I set up a new club exclusively for unaccompanied singers of traditional songs, any members of the existing clubs would desert them for mine. "
Straw man
Nobody is suggesting you should
Jim

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Iains
Date: 30 Apr 19 - 05:10 AM

Wiki states that in the 60's there were 300 folk clubs in the UK.
According to the Daily Telegraph there were 3000.


Singing from the floor suggests every college,town and village had a folk club in the 60's.
Does anyone have any hard figures? It is hard to discuss the rise and fall of clubs when figures stated cannot be verified. It is a bit like using a slide rule to discuss sociology.

What is certain is that weirdy beardy men in pullovers no longer dominate the genre.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 30 Apr 19 - 05:31 AM

Fairy Stories? Well alright a bit! OK more than a bit! However the van used to conk out at every set of traffic lights. A bit like me nowadays.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 30 Apr 19 - 05:35 AM

Sandman, I'm sure what you say is right.

What I am not convinced of is the argument that once upon a time there was a large number of folk clubs at which, if Jim Carroll is right, there were high quality performances of music that either was 'folk' or had been made 'using folk styles', and that clubs stopped providing these two features - which led to a great lowering of attendance and club numbers, killing off the scene.

I do not accept this because it is illogical. If there was a disappointed demand for the offerings Jim describes, then clubs would have been providing that for which there was a demand. It is more logical to assume that recreational and musical fashions changed. Not to mention the zeitgeist (probably cannot spell that).

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Apr 19 - 06:09 AM

I don't think there is much doubt or disagreement about the value of recorded traditional singers and the manuscripts of earlier days, mostly with no agreed author/composer, which seems to be an essential part of recognition as a folk song in some quarters?

I think those who regret the passing (in relative terms) of clubs where traditional material is the norm are missing the point.

Sam Larner, Scan Tester, Phil Tanner etc were part of a lifestyle and ofcommunities which no longer exist, and their songs were a part of that lost way of lifese.
It's excellent that these vestiges of a once-vibrant tradition preserved in the records of their way of life, but trying to bring the word-for-word/musical dots of this material into the world of 2019 is maybe unrealistic?

The material is there, being added to all the time by Rod Stradling, John Howson and Jim Carroll amongst others, not to mention Youtube, and can be drawn on by those who are interested. It will always be a minority interest, although in some circles, there is enough interest to bring it to life again in the context of clubs, as mentioned by Dick- and good for them if it works.

However, kit cannot be a surprise that

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Apr 19 - 06:14 AM

sorry- wrong button-= as I was saying, it cannot be a surprise that people living in the world of 2019 are writing songs in the traditional style but about modern topics like ecology, politics etc, and this is surely part of our evolving tradition- we don't know who wrote the material in the preserved folk tradition, but we do today- I don't really see the difference nor what the fuss is about- standards are high, but that too is in the eye of the beholder...

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Apr 19 - 06:21 AM

" there were high quality performances of music "
Again - nobody has ever suggested this - it really doesn't help to distort what is being argued
What I said is that there was an aimed level of performance that was acceptable to an audience and a standard expected of residents that wasn't fallen below - not particularly high - you were expected to have learned and become reasonably proficient in your songs and mastered the tune
Some clubs - certainly most I was associated with, offered help to inexperienced singers to develop - workshops and one-to-one help
Most folk clubs had some basis in folk song - whether it be the home-grown type or the American stuff picked up from Dylan before he came a pop star
All you need to do is listen to some of the masses of radio programmes CJB `has put up - Folk on Two springs to mind but there were many more - Top Records have never veered too far from folk song proper
The scene was based on a specific type of music - now it is not
Some clubs even made records - Birmingham - Nottingham - The Singers Club in London - recorded club nights or features from club residents
Your refusal to believe this is living proof of how far down the line the scene had degenerated
When that specific identification went, the attendances went down and the record labels, the many magazines, the specialist shops like Free Reed and Collets, the superrb radio output by Bert and Levy and MacColl and Charles Parker and Malcolm Taylor and Battachara - all flushed down the jaxxie   

In contrast the Irish music scene has now established itself and guaranteed an at least two generation future for traditional music by first carefully building a foundation based on the real thing
Youngsters are flocking to it in their thousands - they are free to take it wherever they choose, but they will always have that base to remind them what the music is about
There is always a danger of the music industry and an ignorant media nausing things up (as shown recently by the pathetic 'Ireland's Favourite Folk Song' competition and that awful anti-climactic second Sam Henry programme) but the base will remain as long as there is an interest
In Britain, it seems even some of the researchers have joined in the creation of a smoke-screen obscuring the uniqueness and importance of folk song
What a **** shame
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 30 Apr 19 - 06:25 AM

Guest posting at 6.09 am. Yes this looks like sense. But Jim isn't limiting his 'ideal' club to traditional material, he includes the 'style', presumably to accommodate people who wrote their own material.

Another point: The 'tradition' may have been vibrant, but I'm not convinced that all of the 'community' singers were necessarily good, vibrant performers. Given a friendly tavern sing-song, might it not have gone round in turns and would there not inevitably have been some useless person who was tolerated in a spirit of camaraderie? And it seems clear that 'pop' music of the times was taken up and sung by the 'folk'. So it was not necessarily a tradition of singing 'traditional' songs and nothing but.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Apr 19 - 06:26 AM

Missed that
Sam, Scan at at are all irelevant
I'm glad we have that cleared up
About time we had a bit of honesty here
MacColl always said that folk song would only die if it fell into the hands of people who don't like or understand it
"Rod Stradling, "
Rod pointed out that he was only able to sell three copied of the Sam Larner Album, there is no interest in our English recordings - particularly of Walter Pardon - hee'll end up in Limeric Uni 'cause there's nowehere in the UK for him
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 30 Apr 19 - 06:52 AM

Nobody is being dishonest or stating that 'Sam' etc are irrelevant. For heaven's sake!

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 30 Apr 19 - 07:10 AM

And now it seems Jim is agreeing with me, because he is apparently referring to people not linking folk music with the result that it died. This may explain the demise of large numbers of clubs. Though 'the tradition' was pretty much on its way out by his time as far as I can see. Hence the taking round of people like Pardon to 'perform' in clubs.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 30 Apr 19 - 08:03 AM

while we're celebrating folk clubs, I'll chip in by saying that the monthly folk clubs I go to here in London consistently have a really good standard. They include: Tooting folk club; Bermondsey Folk Club; and A Roving Folk Club (which is held in both Eltham and Bromley).

All of the above are very welcoming. They have a lot of really talented singers and musicians. And, crucially, are friendly enough in atmosphere that even when someone might be a bit rusty, shall we say, gets up to sing, their contribution feels equally as valid.

There are some other, more established folk clubs in London that I do enjoy going to but which I often find seem to be give undue prominence to their regulars, which I find a bit alienating.

Still, let's stay positive: I'm encouraged by the preponderance of relatively new folk clubs in London. Often run by young(er) people. I could also mention Queens Road Folk & Blues club (Peckham). I could also mention The Goose is Out (Nunhead). Long may they continue.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 30 Apr 19 - 08:18 AM

"Pat pointed out to me last night that a survey was carried out some time in th seventies that suggested there were around 1,600 clubs in Britain - Dave puts up 186 as evidence of a "successful folk scene" - do the math and come back and tell me that is an improvement, or even holding its own"

I think it would be almost impossible to find out how many folk clubs there currently are in the UK today; there are things coming and going that I only hear about because I'm good with my social media and actively keep my ear to the ground.

Important to remember just how long ago the 1970s were. Given we're talking about a 45 year span or so, I can't consider it a tragedy or even that surprising that the number of folk clubs would have declined a lot. Given that folk is a specialist music, given that it had an untypical blip in mainstream consciousness in the 1960s and early 70s, that doesn't really surprise me.

I think it's far sadder that the number of live music venues as a whole has declined so rapidly over a much shorter space of time. I think it's sad that the idea of going to hear (or participate in) live music is unlikely to be a regular cultural part of my son's teenage life the way it was for me (irrespective of musical genre).

I see traditional music in much the same way I see other non-mainstream musics like jazz or death metal or minimalist techno or contemporary classical music or indeed any other regional-specific music. It's specialist-audience music. I can't think of folk music as being in crisis because there are folk clubs I go to every month in which young people are singing traditional folk songs.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Vic Smith
Date: 30 Apr 19 - 08:46 AM

Matt wrote:-
I think it's sad that the idea of going to hear (or participate in) live music is unlikely to be a regular cultural part of my son's teenage life the way it was for me (irrespective of musical genre).

Our dance band plays for a lot of weddings and I have become increasingly aware of the reaction of some members of our audience - and I remember that they have not chosen to be at one of our events but they have been invited as a friend or relative. Before playing for dancing, we normally play a couple of sets of tunes to give people the feel of the music. Mostly we will see smiles and people who clearly cannot wait to get on the dance floor. Others sit looking bemused or they turn their backs on the band. I do not think thay are hating what they hear; I am convinced that these people simply do not have any live music in their lives and are not sure how they should react to it. As a live music junkie who gets twitchy if more than a few days go by without having an event where live music is played, the reaction of the non-musicers I find incomprehensible.

I am not long returned from West Africa where live music/song/dance/excitement/laughter are intrinsically linked. Matt is right to bemoan the cultural loss and I think it applies more to metropolitan England than to the rest of the British Isles.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: r.padgett
Date: 30 Apr 19 - 09:25 AM

High regard and have Walter Pardon CDs and vinyl ~saw him at Whitby ff in 1977 ~ also Sam Larner ~ Musical Traditions run by Rod Stradling continues his excellent work

Ray

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Apr 19 - 09:33 AM

jim the club un by the wilsons was every bit as good as regards quality, as clubs that i remember from the sixties and seventies, but there are less guest booking clubs than there used to be

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Apr 19 - 09:33 AM

"Nobody is being dishonest or stating that 'Sam' etc are irrelevant. For heaven's sake!"
Explain this
"Sam Larner, Scan Tester, Phil Tanner etc were part of a lifestyle and ofcommunities which no longer exist, and their songs were a part of that lost way of lifese. "
You might explain this as well
"And now it seems Jim is agreeing with me, because he is apparently referring to people not linking folk music with the result that it died."
"Though 'the tradition' was pretty much on its way out by his time as far as I can see."
The tradition was dying when Sharp and his collegues were collecting - the BBC carried out a 'mopping up' campaign in the early 1950s from people who were largely remembering songs from a tradition that had died
In the late fifties the revival used the recordings to escape from the pop pap - few of the revival singers had learned their songs traditionally but used the BBC recordings and books like 'The Penguin Book of Folk Songs'
Even Walter Pardon had not really been part of a living tradition - that disappeared when he was a young child
He systematically wrote down his family songs (we have his books) and memorised the tunes on a melodeon
"I think it would be almost impossible to find out how many folk clubs there currently are in the UK today; "
An accurate figure isn't particularly important - the inescapable fact is that the number of clubs have shrunk to a massive degree and those involved in running them are mainly of 'a certain age'
Many of the youngsters people throw up as up-and-coming are the 'names' who have had a degree of success - it seems the dogsbodies and instigators with a feel for the tradition are not being replaced at the rate they need to be
No matter how many clubs there are, those catering for folk song proper are a minority of a shrinking number
Nobody seems interested in addressing that point and the effect it has on the future access to traditional song
My generation - right though the 'Swingin' Sixties' took great pleasure from listening to and singing long ballads, transportation songs, bawdy songs, songs about press gangs and work at sea and going to war.....
We weren't freaks or intellectuals ploutering in the past - we were ordinary youngsters enjoying the creations of our forefathers - pretty well the same as some of us took (and still take) pleasure in reading Dickens and Hardy or watching plays by Shakespeare
I see Irish youngsters in their thousands beginning to get the same pleasure from creations of the past and making it their own now - why can't that happen back home I wonder
That's part of the responsibility we took on when we came to folk song
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Apr 19 - 09:42 AM

Dave puts up 186 as evidence of a "successful folk scene"

I really do wish people would stop making things up. I put up no arguments or conclusions. I linked to this Wiki article which states

The decline began to stabilise in the mid-1990s with the resurgence of interest in folk music and there are now over 160 folk clubs in the United Kingdom, including many that can trace their origins back to the 1950s

Note. It says that there are over 160 clubs. This is a minimum figure. I do not know where it came from and others have suggested there are considerably more. It does not suggest that this is indicative of a successful folk scene. It says quite categorically that the decline has stabilised and goes on to explain that the nature of folk clubs has changed.

If anyone is going to attribute anything to me, make sure you get the facts and source right or it makes you look foolish.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Apr 19 - 10:05 AM

"I put up no arguments or conclusions"
You put it up as proof of an improvement - if I made a mistake it was that I overestimated that 'success'
I take something somebody puts up as an indication that they believe it to be true Dave
It might be "considerably more" but that is not been borne out by actual numbers
If you remember, we went on to disagree on what was acceptable at folk clubs
That particular argument floundered when I compared your suggestions with the wide variation to be found in the traditional song repertoire - you refused to respond
Later, when I quoted Martin Carthy's statement about the importance and relevance of folk song to modern life, everybody refused to respond
My apologies for giving a higher number in your favour, I'll try not to let it happen again
Jim

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Apr 19 - 12:02 PM

Not a clue what you are on about, Jim. As usual it is all bluster and noise. If I "put it up as proof of an improvement" show us all where I did that. I can guarantee, once again, that you will fail to do so. You disagree with me on one tiny part of what is performed at folk clubs and, for reasons known only to yourself, you have decided I am "the enemy" . You keep attempting to discredit arguments I have never made. Why?

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 30 Apr 19 - 12:03 PM

"Many of the youngsters people throw up as up-and-coming are the 'names' who have had a degree of success - it seems the dogsbodies and instigators with a feel for the tradition are not being replaced at the rate they need to be "

The "they should do something" rather than "we can do something" attitude seems to have taken root. I see a fair few youngsters stewarding for free tickets at festivals but it is definitely the bus pass generation putting out the chairs at folk clubs.

My own observation of the "decline" was that it was, to some extent, to be expected with the big input into the clubs in the 60s. People left because of the normal issues of families, jobs and mortgages and shifts in fashion meant that there was nowhere near like for like replacement.

Many (by no means all) clubs were left in the hands of pretty indifferent singers. I am sure that the failure to even partially replace a declining audience had as much to do with quality as with content.

What is striking is the success of concerts. It is the same demogrphic as the clubs but, from the ones that I have observed, not the same people. The baby boomers seem keen to come back to folk but aren't spending their pensions on watching a floor singer who rubbish in 1970 and hasn't improved since.

That isn't something that I am happy about and it isn't healthy in the medium term. I am aware however of (relatively) younger people running informal folk events but the label "folk club" seems to be toxic as far as they are concerned.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Andy7
Date: 30 Apr 19 - 12:09 PM

Andy7: "I can think of at least 8 good folk clubs within easy driving distance of me in south Hampshire. All of them are very welcoming to unaccompanied singers of traditional songs, as well as being welcoming to other kinds of music. I've heard, and learned, quite a number of traditional folk songs through visiting some of these clubs regularly over the years.

But I very much doubt that, if I set up a new club exclusively for unaccompanied singers of traditional songs, any members of the existing clubs would desert them for mine. In fact, I wouldn't even go to it myself, as I love the variety of music in the existing clubs."

Jim Carroll: "Straw man
Nobody is suggesting you should"

Mr. Carroll, please don't chuck an insult at me like that, in response to a serious post. I never do that to others on this site; and I'd appreciate the same courtesy in return.

The point of my post was obviously not whether or not anyone is suggesting that I should set up a new club.

The point I was making is, that in the 'mixed' clubs that are seen nowadays, unaccompanied traditional songs are almost invariably welcome.

The people that attend such clubs seem - from many conversations I've had over the years - to very much enjoy the variety on offer. At the same time, these clubs are playing a major role in keeping alive the traditional songs.

I don't believe that a club focusing solely on traditional unaccompanied songs would be as successful; any more than would a club focusing solely on 60s folk-style songs, or solely on self-penned songs, or solely on music hall songs, or solely on parodies, etc. etc.

It's the variety that I, and many others, enjoy. And that variety includes, as an intrinsic part, those traditional folk songs which, I agree, it's very important to maintain as a living musical tradition.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Apr 19 - 12:28 PM

”I don't believe that a club focusing solely on traditional unaccompanied songs would be as successful; any more than would a club focusing solely on 60s folk-style songs, or solely on self-penned songs, or solely on music hall songs, or solely on parodies, etc. etc.

It's the variety that I, and many others, enjoy. And that variety includes, as an intrinsic part, those traditional folk songs which, I agree, it's very important to maintain as a living musical tradition.”

Amen to that, Andy, a thousand Amens.

Subject: RE: uk folk clubs high standard
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Apr 19 - 01:01 PM

"Mr. Carroll, please don't chuck an insult at me like that"
What insult ?
Straw man isn't a reference to you - it is a reference to your attributing to me something I haven't said
I repeat - nobody had suggested a club that only deals with traditional, unaccompanied song - I've always avoided them like the plague
You've just repeated it
"I don't believe that a club focusing solely on traditional unaccompanied songs would be as successful;"
Who has mentioned suv=ch a thing ?
If you think a traditional repertoire is't "varied", you should look again - it is a damn sight more varied that the one-theme pop output which is largely populated by unidentifiable non-people
Nothing wrong with throwing music-hall and parodies, but the trad repertoire has everything they could offer in spades - from the big ballads to children's make-ups - bawdry, eroticism, belly-laugh humour, biter-bit smilse behind the hand, work, travel, wars, sea-going, love, hate, marriage...
Name one subject from a music hall song that can't be matched traditionally
" As usual it is all bluster and noise."
Now your resorting to personal abuse Dave - I thought higher of you than that
Would you like to dig out the thread where I put forward the variety of folk song and compared it to the pop repertoire (pretty much the same as I have just written)
Ot perhaps you would like me to put up the Martin Carthy quote which you and everybody else ignored ?
JIm