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BS: Pentecostalism and 'witchcraft'

Jack Campin 07 May 19 - 09:28 AM
Donuel 07 May 19 - 10:53 AM
Dave the Gnome 07 May 19 - 12:00 PM
Jack Campin 07 May 19 - 12:14 PM
punkfolkrocker 07 May 19 - 12:58 PM
Joe Offer 07 May 19 - 03:16 PM
punkfolkrocker 07 May 19 - 03:41 PM
Donuel 07 May 19 - 05:21 PM
Mossback 07 May 19 - 09:11 PM
meself 07 May 19 - 11:03 PM
Joe Offer 08 May 19 - 12:29 AM
Jack Campin 08 May 19 - 05:24 AM
Mr Red 08 May 19 - 05:37 AM
Mossback 08 May 19 - 10:37 AM
Jack Campin 08 May 19 - 10:49 AM
robomatic 08 May 19 - 12:04 PM
Joe Offer 09 May 19 - 01:09 AM
Mossback 09 May 19 - 10:30 AM
punkfolkrocker 09 May 19 - 10:36 AM
robomatic 09 May 19 - 02:42 PM
Mossback 09 May 19 - 06:56 PM
Jeri 09 May 19 - 07:53 PM
Mossback 09 May 19 - 08:11 PM
Jeri 09 May 19 - 09:27 PM
Joe Offer 09 May 19 - 10:00 PM
punkfolkrocker 09 May 19 - 10:05 PM
Mossback 10 May 19 - 09:42 AM
punkfolkrocker 10 May 19 - 10:28 AM
punkfolkrocker 10 May 19 - 11:24 AM

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Subject: BS: Pentecostalism and 'witchcraft'
From: Jack Campin
Date: 07 May 19 - 09:28 AM

In case you wondering if Christianity could come up with anything even worse than organized child abuse...

Al Jazeera graphic story


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Subject: RE: BS: Pentecostalism and 'witchcraft'
From: Donuel
Date: 07 May 19 - 10:53 AM

Marvel comic book formats are being used here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Pentecostalism and 'witchcraft'
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 May 19 - 12:00 PM

When I was in Chicago many years ago I was handed a 'comic' by a very pleasant seeming old man. It was just as bad as that but about Islam. It's been going on a while.


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Subject: RE: BS: Pentecostalism and 'witchcraft'
From: Jack Campin
Date: 07 May 19 - 12:14 PM

It worked very well. I knew that sort of thing happened, but the presentation brought home the human experiences involved.

Pentecostals really are bloody disgusting.


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Subject: RE: BS: Pentecostalism and 'witchcraft'
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 May 19 - 12:58 PM

Way I look at it, it's should still be ok
for intelligent progressive lefty liberals
to condemn the worst inhumane abusive practices of any religions...

I'd find it harder looking for proven benefits to mankind...


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Subject: RE: BS: Pentecostalism and 'witchcraft'
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 May 19 - 03:16 PM

I'm sorry, but this makes me uneasy. I'm sure that accusations of witchcraft do exist in Nigeria and elsewhere and can cause serious harm....but when it leads to a broad statement like "Pentecostals really are bloody disgusting," then I get nervous.

I would venture to say that the vast majority of Pentecostals are good, gentle people who would never dream of doing anything horrible like this. Even we enlightened white people can be wrong when we accuse all members of a group for the actions of a few. It's the essence of bigotry.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Pentecostalism and 'witchcraft'
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 May 19 - 03:41 PM

Joe - if my memory is correct,
"elsewhere" includes at least one sacrificial child's mutilated body disposed in The Thames...???


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Subject: RE: BS: Pentecostalism and 'witchcraft'
From: Donuel
Date: 07 May 19 - 05:21 PM

If a witch makes you gay you will get the death penalty there.


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Subject: RE: BS: Pentecostalism and 'witchcraft'
From: Mossback
Date: 07 May 19 - 09:11 PM

I would venture to say that the vast majority of Pentecostals are good, gentle people who would never dream of doing anything horrible

Rather like those wonderful fundagelicals that support that racist immoral piece of shit Trump, yes?


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Subject: RE: BS: Pentecostalism and 'witchcraft'
From: meself
Date: 07 May 19 - 11:03 PM

I've lived in a couple of communities of which Pentecostals were a sizable portion of the population. I never heard of a child killed for being a witch, or from any religious/superstitious motivation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Pentecostalism and 'witchcraft'
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 May 19 - 12:29 AM

Mossback says: Rather like those wonderful fundagelicals that support that racist immoral piece of shit Trump, yes?

But then again, there are many Evangelical Christians who do not support Trump at all. You're best off judging individuals by their deeds and by what they say for themselves, not by the group they belong to.

Bigotry is still bigotry, be it from the right, or from the left.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Pentecostalism and 'witchcraft'
From: Jack Campin
Date: 08 May 19 - 05:24 AM

I would expect that given the potential traditional Nigerian folk belief offers to turn witchcraft into a profit centre, someone else will soon have followed the Pentecostals' lead, and the other people most likely to do it will be folks calling themselves Muslims (though belief in witches has never been part of Muslim doctrine).

The Pentecostals tried their damnedest to start an Ebola epidemic in Nigeria, and it was only one woman sacrificing her life that stopped them.

https://reliefweb.int/report/nigeria/iddr2016-how-nigeria-won-fight-against-ebola

There are many more like this:

https://www.health24.com/Medical/infectious-diseases/Ebola/Nigerian-pastor-declares-cure-for-Ebola-20140729

The Pentecostals I knew in NZ were quite happy to accept the compulsive gibberish of an acute schizophrenic as speaking in tongues and welcome him into the congregation. For a few months, the more he deteriorated the more the church thought he was advancing in the spiritual life.


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Subject: RE: BS: Pentecostalism and 'witchcraft'
From: Mr Red
Date: 08 May 19 - 05:37 AM

Religion should be about how you conduct yourself (amongst other things). But power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. (Churchill).

And there are those that get off on the power trip. Any coterie will do if it satisfies the someone's power craze, and to deal with it the club has to wield power, which inevitable comes from people with a propensity for power plus a balanced sense of morality - and they ain't so thick on the ground.

Was it ever thus. And yes there was a court case in Lundun where some poor kid was killed by religious people on the premise of inherent evil. And Nigeria/Christian figured in the equation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Pentecostalism and 'witchcraft'
From: Mossback
Date: 08 May 19 - 10:37 AM

Bigotry is still bigotry, be it from the right, or from the left.

And facts is still facts, wherever they be from.

many Evangelical Christians who do not support Trump

Not so very many after all - Eighty percent of fundagelical voters voted for Donald Trump in 2016 and his current approval rating among them is 78% plus.

You're best off judging individuals by their deeds and by what they say for themselves,

Absolutely- fundagelicals & pentecostals are Biblical literalists and believe, act and speak accordingly- stoning "faggots" disobedient children & a host of others to death; subjugation of women; slavery, scientific illiteracy, creationism, and too many other dangerous idiocies to count (not to mention anti-Catholicism).


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Subject: RE: BS: Pentecostalism and 'witchcraft'
From: Jack Campin
Date: 08 May 19 - 10:49 AM

And there are those that get off on the power trip

The Al Jazeera article makes a point I hadn't thought of, that it isn't just about power. It's about money. It wasn't at all obvious to me how you could turn a profit on witch beliefs, but the Nigerian Pentecostals managed it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Pentecostalism and 'witchcraft'
From: robomatic
Date: 08 May 19 - 12:04 PM

I'd say we're dealing with intra-religious variations of folks who take their religion with logic flavored with a grain of salt down to those who take the same religion with self righteousness flavored with violence. You can find this spread in every religion including too many who think they can use the term science as justification.

I am reminded of a quote from someone not usually considered a moderate:

"I beseech thee, by the bowels of Christ, think it possible you may be mistaken."

I know some non-Pentecostal Protestants who may be about to experience a major split in their church between liberal acceptance of the spectrum of human sexuality and conservative adherence to a fundy perspective, and yes, though the church is the same, the fundy portion is anchored in Africa, abetted by Western fundys who helped put it together.

I've known some American Pentecostalists and not been exposed to extremist views from 'em.

And don't get me started on snake handlers...


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Subject: RE: BS: Pentecostalism and 'witchcraft'
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 May 19 - 01:09 AM

It's hard for people who are highly ideological to understand this, but most people and most human interactions are not all that heavily ideological. Churches and other affiliations depend more on social interaction, not ideology. Churches, especially, may have creeds that don't make a whole lot of sense even to the members of the church, but they accept the creed as "tradition" and often don't take the creed very seriously - because, for them, the creed or ideology just doesn't mean very much. They belong to a church or other group where they feel comfortable and at home, where they may have relationships and traditions and family histories that last for generations. And the warmth and length of those relationships, is far more important to them than any creed.

I'm a Catholic - with a seminary degree in Theology, and it took me a long time to realize that most Catholics have very little concept of Catholic doctrine. It's just not important to them. But the Catholic Church is rich in folklore and tradition and colorful rituals - and that's what is important to them. They may be very loyal to the Pope because the Pope is a treasured and colorful part of their tradition, but they have very little idea about what the Pope says and thinks and does - that is why Pope Francis is having such a hard time bringing about much-needed changes in the Catholic Church.

Most people don't have a world vision, or even a national vision - and maybe it's a good thing they don't.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Pentecostalism and 'witchcraft'
From: Mossback
Date: 09 May 19 - 10:30 AM

They belong to a church or other group where they feel comfortable and at home

Exactly.

And the fundagelicals under discussion are comfortable and at home with, for example, discrimination against and demonization of the LGBT community, are comfortable and at home with misogyny and the subjugation of women, are comfortable and at home with a 6000-year-old planet and science denial, are comfortable and at home with the piece of crap in the White House, are comfortable and at home with burning witches, are comfortable and at home with attempting to forcibly legislate their beliefs onto others, are comfortable and at home with......... etc.


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Subject: RE: BS: Pentecostalism and 'witchcraft'
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 May 19 - 10:36 AM

The positive social functions of a church could be just as valid and welcome
in any entirely secular community...


.. oh.. if only.. you may say I'm a dreamer...


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Subject: RE: BS: Pentecostalism and 'witchcraft'
From: robomatic
Date: 09 May 19 - 02:42 PM

Joe:

Your last posting is my take on the whys of behavior and it is parallel to the observation that soldiers fight kill and die not so much for the principles of their side but for the comrades in arms to either side of them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Pentecostalism and 'witchcraft'
From: Mossback
Date: 09 May 19 - 06:56 PM

Yup.

And its one, two three
What are we fighting for?
Don't ask me I don't give a damn
Next stop is Viet Nam
And its five, six, seven
Open up the pearly gates
Ain't no time to wonder why
WHOOPEE! we're all gonna die!


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Subject: RE: BS: Pentecostalism and 'witchcraft'
From: Jeri
Date: 09 May 19 - 07:53 PM

You don't fight for yourself
You fight for the ones by your side
And they'd do the same for you
To live, you must be willing to die
But what saves you in the battle
Can kill you at home
A soldier, soldiering on

Mary Gauthier, from 'Soldiering On', on Rifles and Rosary Beads


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Subject: RE: BS: Pentecostalism and 'witchcraft'
From: Mossback
Date: 09 May 19 - 08:11 PM

But that still begs the question what is one fighting FOR and WHY?

Or are we dealing with mindless automatons?


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Subject: RE: BS: Pentecostalism and 'witchcraft'
From: Jeri
Date: 09 May 19 - 09:27 PM

Whatever the excuses are, when it comes down to the individuals, they're put in situations where they have to fight to stay alive and keep their buddies that way. If you're talking about the "Big Picture", it's an impersonal one, and yes, it's mindless automatons. That what politics mostly are.


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Subject: RE: BS: Pentecostalism and 'witchcraft'
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 May 19 - 10:00 PM

Mossback/Greg_F, every group has a small subgroup of "true believers" who claim they have an obligation to maintain the doctrine of the group. The vast majority of people in a group, care very little about doctrinal orthodoxy. Indeed, the majority may find the "true believers" to be frightening.
True believers see their doctrine as the most important thing in the world, and they cannot understand others who don't care about such things. And these true believers tend to see all opposing groups as homogeneous, that all members of the opposing group are the same and that all express the hardline beliefs associated with the opponents. So....they tend to inflate the threat of opposition, to see opposing sides as threats that must be defeated.
People like Trump take advantage of this, and rally their true believers in opposition to whatever scapegoats they may choose. For a long time, Trump has rallied his followers against the threat of immigrants, and Trump's "base" truly believe immigrants to be a united threat to the security of the United States.
You're a true believer yourself, so you see things in absolutes and take all opposition as a powerful threat.

But most people, even evangelical Christians, don't see things like you do. They like their church just fine, but they're more concerned about the price of oranges at the supermarket and the fact that their gas tank is getting close to "empty." They know the hardliners in their church are deadset against homosexuality, but they don't even know any homosexuals - and when they DO get to know a homosexual person, they're most likely going to like them.

In my experience, most people are not hardline followers of any ideology. They may belong to a group that has some objectionable doctrines, but they really won't support those doctrines if the doctrines are pushed to the point where they become cruel.

As for me, I believe in people. And I've found that most people are pretty decent folks and will do what's right if they're properly informed.

Mossback, you're a hardliner just like the Trump hardliners you claim to detest. And your positions are distressingly parallel to those of the Trump people. Perhaps it's time for you to reassess.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Pentecostalism and 'witchcraft'
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 May 19 - 10:05 PM

My brother in law is an evangelical minister,
He mostly seems like a reasonable bloke despite his literal bible beliefs.
Another minister in his church is just a nasty zealot,
one of the vilest bigotted men I've ever encounterd...


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Subject: RE: BS: Pentecostalism and 'witchcraft'
From: Mossback
Date: 10 May 19 - 09:42 AM

...every group has a small subgroup of "true believers"...

So the 80% of the fundapentegelical cohort that supports Trump is a "small subgroup".

You've evidently been taking lessons from Sarah Huckabee Sanders.

PFR- just curious, but does your brother-in-law therefore denounce this vile bigot to his flock? Or pretend he doesn't exist? Or something else....


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Subject: RE: BS: Pentecostalism and 'witchcraft'
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 May 19 - 10:28 AM

Don't know, I only ever see Brother in law every so many years for family weddings and funerals...
Whether he likes it or not, his sister moved from Wales to England in the early 80s
to do her degree, and met me...

My guess is they close ranks against the outside world,
tolerating the old bastard in chapel and socials,
but moan about him behind his back...???


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Subject: RE: BS: Pentecostalism and 'witchcraft'
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 May 19 - 11:24 AM

Just to add context..

My observation is that they are a small self enclosed religious community,
tending to marry between families - a restricted gene pool...
This results in ministers being related to each other, at least by marriage, if not blood..

So it's easy to understand why & how they have to put up with each other,
and make allowances for their nastier zealots...???

Business men within their religion seem to do very well out of the network...


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