If you do like ballads...

Subject: If you do like ballads...
From: Brian Peters
Date: 17 May 19 - 11:57 AM

... you might be interested in learning more about them.

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: JHW
Date: 17 May 19 - 02:33 PM

I was just looking this morning at this site Child Ballads and reading up about Lord Lovel. The information is overwhelming!

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: Brian Peters
Date: 17 May 19 - 03:41 PM

That is one great site. Hosted by Mudcatter Richie Matteson, who brought many of the ballads detailed on his pages to this forum for discussion first.

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 May 19 - 02:18 AM

Have to say I much prefer the title of this thread to the other current one
Ballads are like all great art - you have to go to them - they will not come to you
When you make the move - you're hooked
All you can do to encourage others is persuade them that the journey's worthwhile and suggest what to look for
As far as I am concerned, good ballad singing leaves the listener with a memory of the ballad and not the performance
Jim

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 May 19 - 10:06 PM

I couldn't agree more Jim with what you're saying here.
The fault lies entirely with my sensibility.
Perhaps one day, I'll get it.

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 May 19 - 02:21 AM

If you do, I hope you get as much pleasure out of them as I do/have Al
They really are worth the effort
Jim

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 21 May 19 - 05:58 AM

The site referred to above does have a great deal of information, though as the site itself says, it isn't a finished product, and the 'information' could, I feel, be better set out for easy reading and digestion. I'm not sure that the choice of blue for the text was in line with current thinking on 'readability'. That said, it is a great site and a lot of work has evidently gone into providing a resource for enthusiasts.


If I have read the information right then the earliest record of the song 'Lord Lovel' - Child no 75, also referred to above - was provided by one Horace Walpole who was son of a Prime Minister and also a famous author of a novel that was more or less the first in the fashion for gothic novels.

As so often happens when trying to trace the 'history' of something, claims are made, relating to one Dixon, that the song is an ancient one from Northumberland, but the evidence for this claim isn't clear to me, it may just be Dixon's guess on the topic. (NB If you research Dixon he was a member of the Percy Society and produced a collection called Ancient Poems, Ballads and Songs of the Peasantry of England. He based his entry for the song in his work on broadsheets, though he claimed to have known the song for some time).


The term 'Dowsabel', used in some versions of the song, is an English form of a French name, which came to mean 'sweetheart' by a process of generalisation. The earliest occurrence for it in the OED is 16th century. The dictionary believes that the name might have been first used in some pastoral song, but again, no evidence for this guess is provided. Our song isn't 'pastoral' but maybe such songs did make use of French derived names. The authors of the dictionary appear to have been conjecturing. However, for present purposes, I note that pastoral songs don't appear to have been written by the lower orders, as is claimed for folk song. I'm not sure how that piece of information about the name, not given on the web site, fits with the theory of an ancient Northumbrian origin for the song.

We are given what might be called a 'historiography' of the song, a summary of what various 'historians' or 'folklorists' have said about it, but not all of this is particularly convincing or well-referenced and exemplified so that one can chase up the source material. An example is the reference on the web site to Dixon's views on the song. I have no idea how reliable Dixon is as a source.

All this aside, I cannot say that I find the song to be an example of 'great art'. It doesn't seem to me to be particularly skilful. Some versions include cliches such as the milk white horse/steed. The story has been much parodied and no wonder due to the double deaths which seem a bit far-fetched. Probably appealed to Walpole's gothic side? Yes it is about a universal theme 'death' but given I know little and care less about the characters it isn't particularly moving on the topic.

Nor does it seem to me to be at all clear that this must have been written by the 'lower orders' or a member of the 'peasantry'.

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 21 May 19 - 06:21 AM

The other thing that emerged from looking at this web site was a comment (? by Child) that the melody used for the song was crucial in conveying the sentiments, a reminder for me that these are songs not poems to be recited and that the music has 'semiotic' functions.

It seems to me that once you know the story, which is skeletal in this example and many others, the interest in further hearings has to be in the delivery of it, the musical interpretation of it, and that ornamentation and even instrumentation using a range of instruments up to and including digital based music production are all valid ways of making use of the resource provided by the words.

Insisting that the 'story' has to have priority and that anything focused on the singer and their skills is extraneous or a distraction seems to me to be missing the point about ballads as 'songs' and about the uses people make of music.

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: Howard Jones
Date: 21 May 19 - 06:26 AM

"somme versions include cliches such as the milk white horse/steed. "

Should the familiar phrases in ballads be considered cliches, or are they an essential part of the ballad structure? From a singer's point of view, they make it easier to remember the song, and help to carry the story forward for a line or two without too much effort, allowing you to focus on the material element of the story which comes next. This probably helps the audience too, knowing they are on familiar ground and can relax for a moment.

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 May 19 - 06:34 AM

"I cannot say that I find the song to be an example of 'great art'."
There are many versions of Lord Lovel and no indication whatever that Walpole's was Walpole's was the earliest
The ballad was still extant in various forms in Ireland in the mid 1980s - an indication that it had something going for it
The fact that it was popular with 'the lower orders' for many centuries and that they have proven themselves to be more than capable of songmaking for that length of time gives their claim claim to authorship every bit as likely as that of the hacks - in my opinion, of course
Bronson gives 76 tunes for the ballad - not complete by any means
Jim

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 21 May 19 - 06:47 AM

Howard
Interesting point about function of oft-repeated phrases, and I agree completely, but I'm not sure this doesn't make them less of a 'cliche'. Also for me this detracts from the 'great art' claim.

Interesting points from Jim as usual.

By the way, I didn't say I didn't like the song, merely that the claim that this and similar are 'great art' seems difficult to sustain.


Tell us a little about Bronson's methodology and his aesthetic principles (if any)?

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 May 19 - 06:56 AM

"Tell us a little about Bronson's methodology and his aesthetic principles (if any)?"
Why - are you challenging his work ?
Incidentally, 'oft repeated phrases' are often known as "incremental repetition" when applied to the ballads (as distinct from choruses and refrains)
They usually act as indications that the plot has moved on in time or distance, or that other changes have taken place
Not 'clichés, but an essential part of the plot
The technique is also used in traditional storytelling
Jim

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 21 May 19 - 07:33 AM

I know about 'incremental repetition', rather like 'repetition with replacement'. That said 'milk white steed' is not an example of that phenomenon.

Why have I asked for information about Bronson's methodologyy and aesthetic principles? Well, first, why not? And second, it seems reasonable to me to think about the reliability of anybody deemed to me an authority. As I have tried to suggest before, quite a bit of work on 'folklore' seems to me to be based around uncritical acceptance and repetition (and yes some of this may even be incremental repetition, let's face it 'history' is a narrative like all the others) of what turns out to be relatively broad conjecture. Nothing wrong with conjecturing and using one's imagination, but helpful to be able to tell, for example, information derived from primary sources from other sorts of of stuff.

By the way, I deliberately stated not that Walpole's was the first version ever but that it is seen as being the earliest known (and we have to accept that he was right about when he first heard it).

Regarding Bronson, it doesn't matter how many tunes he gives for the song, the aesthetic points I made, and that I understand Child to have made, still stand.

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 21 May 19 - 07:47 AM

Should have typed 'deemed to be an authority' not 'deemed to me'.

White horses feature in various mythologies, not least the chivalric type ones with knights on horseback, which this song looks to me like some example of. It also reminds me of Romeo and Juliet to some extent, pared down and robbed of a lot of interest and detail.


And Bronson appears not to have liked the thing at all!


A nice example of 'folklore' on the Mainly Norfork site where somebody says it was first sung by a woman. Where is the evidence for that? See what I mean about needing to check sources and the reliability thereof?


Thanks for the discussion.

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 21 May 19 - 08:07 AM

There is a long discussion of this song on here which I have just found and which seems to back up my thinking in terms of checking the reliability of authorities, and which has the most notable feature that Steve Gardam announces that he is 'with child'. Did he call it 'Archie', I hope not!

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 May 19 - 08:17 AM

"I know about 'incremental repetition'"
Look it up - it's a basic element of ballad scholarship - milk white steed, lily-white breast, et al are 'commonplaces' not repetition
"Why not?"
Once you start questioning the past work of out leading scholars without providing a rational and workable alternative you are undermining over a century of work
Some decades ago Dave Harker wrote a scurrilous book doing that - little more than a hit-list of everybody who had given us songs and offering nothing in return
Having worked in the building trade, my immediate thought was "it's far easier to pull something down than it is to build something"
You wish to pick away at Child and Bronson, feel free, but you are really going to have to come up with something better than this - an understanding of ballad construction might be a good starting place
Jim

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 21 May 19 - 09:21 AM

Thank you Jim for your helpful and constructive response.

Your building trade analogy interests me. The last but three electricians I had in left me with a non-earthed installation, a plug socket that fell off the wall more or less the first time used, safety signs saying 'do not remove' littering the floor and other faults. One of their men spent a lot of time on the phone discussing the 'trip' he had been on the night before, which no doubt accounted for the hallucinations he was describing as well as his very red eyeballs. The next to the last electrician I had in did a proper inspection of the installation and compiled a list of problems to be put right by the last lot I had in (the last but one was going on holiday). So when I think of the building trade, I think about issues of reliability and confirmation and evidence.

On the positive side the three sets of wire cutters left around by the last lot but three are useful for trimming strings when re-stringing musical instruments.

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 May 19 - 09:41 AM

Sous electricians have become part of the hit list !!
Ah well !!
It is a fairly apt analogy for what is happening big-time in the folk world
When Roud's disappointing book hit the presses the critics were on it lika a shot - "Look - the folk didn't make folk song" - a century's scholarship down the Klarts
For us, Child, Bronson, Sharp - Wimberly was a springboard into a wider understanding of what we were hearing and being told by the singers - and it worked
Placing the songs into a social setting, discovering a massive and somewhat neglected songmaking tradition, listening to the singers claim ownership of the songs, their identification with what they sung.... all putting flesh on the skeleton

I would point out that any problems you found with electricians were almost certainly due to their understanding their trade rather than with the trade itself
As a time served electrician with four decades plus work experience, I refused to register myself as an electrician when I found I would have to sit an exam set by desk-jockeys who wouldn't know one end of a screwdriver from the other
I'm beginning to realise that the same can be applied to Folk songs and ballads
I'll stick with what I think I know rather than start again, if it's all the same with you
Jim

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 21 May 19 - 11:04 AM

Jim

I am sure you are a great loss to the world of electricals, and that your customer service skills were second to none.

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: GUEST
Date: 21 May 19 - 11:30 AM

"I am sure you are a great loss to the world of electricals, "
Always thought sarcasm to be the lowest form of wit but it gets us no closer to a conclusion on the value (or otherwise) of ballads
Not a bad way of avoiding the points though
In my opinion, the work of Bronson, Child and Sharp were excellent examples of joint effort and co-operation - bringing together the work of many people into one comprehensive whole
Now research has 'gone private', it seems to me that 'folk' has become directionless
There has been lip-service paid to not throwing out the baby with the bathwater, but that seems to be exactly what has happened - the results are depressingly obvious
When will we ever learn (not a ballad, of course
Jim

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 21 May 19 - 11:42 AM

Ps
Like many others in the recent past you're banging your head against a brick wall here. And that particular brick wall ain't gonna be pulled down any time soon, by you, me or anybody else.

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 May 19 - 11:46 AM

" And that particular brick wall ain't gonna be pulled down any time soon, by you, me or anybody else."
You might try arguments rather than insults and excuses Steve
Works a treat where I come from
Jim

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 21 May 19 - 11:52 AM

Been there, done that many times. The brick wall's still there.

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 May 19 - 12:26 PM

"Been there, done that many times. "
Fraid not Steve - you've certainly done your share of patronising, insulting and making excuses, but you've never tackled the major contradictions of your theory - nor are you attempting to now
Anybody can claim to have proved their point, but without the evidence of their having done so.....
Child - Bronson - Sharp and well over a century of scholarship and research ..... it takes giants to bring down giants of that stature
Jim

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 21 May 19 - 12:43 PM

And there we have it in a nutshell, absolutely typical of the exaggerated claims constantly being made. No-one has attempted to bring down the scholarship of any of those three. We have only, like yourself, admitted that there were flaws in their theories. In the case of Child, by far the greatest of the 3, he was himself constantly re-appraising and doubting his work. We have repeated over and over how all 3 of these great editors made an enormous contribution to our understanding of folksong. But they were not gods!

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 21 May 19 - 12:58 PM

Ps,
In Walpole's time LL was seen as a burlesque of some earlier ballad no longer extant. It continued well into the 19thc as a burlesque, in fact right up to the Music Hall era. By 1800 it was being printed on broadsides and was taken up by the general public many of whom saw it as a straight song. Its bedfellow is 'George Collins/Lady Alice', also a burlesque. In fact it's quite likely they were either written by the same person for some stage production or one inspired the other. The fact that they were already burlesques didn't stop them being burlesqued even further to some quite grotesque lengths. See The Universal Songster for 1825.

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 21 May 19 - 12:58 PM

The thing is, Jim, you keep referring to the work of Child, but it seems plain to me, and this is just my opinion, that you yourself radically disagree with him. He was utterly plain that the lower orders did not write the ballads, you are convinced that they did.

Similarly, those people who you cite did not always agree with eachother, so the idea that over 100 years some monolithic body of 'knowledge' was built up seems to me simply to radically misrepresent what was done, to misrepresent the contents of this literature about 'folk' and 'ballads'.

I have pointed out to you how racist much of the early 'folklorists' were, and still you are pointing to a century of research that should not be overturned. Surely you of all people would take issue with their view of 'primitive races' ie Native Americans? Instead I get told I am trying to overturn the work of 'giants'.

Many of the questions I am asking are basic ones that 16 year old students of history should be able to ask: Is this a primary source or a secondary source? What bias may be present? How likely is it to be reliable. And in the works of the hundred years that you refer to in the above posts, such questions have been asked. So Percy fiddled with some of his songs. Dixon, one source on Lord Lovel, has been questioned in terms of reliability by others within that same 100 year tradition.

Go read a book I was told. Physician, heal thyself, I am tempted to suggest, at the risk of appearing unmannerly!

Steve, I guess you are right.

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 May 19 - 01:17 PM

Not to me, and it wouldn't matter too much if he did - he never made an issue of it and many of his sources spoke out loudly in favour of the idea that folk was the creation of the folk
The early folklorists were products of their time - as slavery was a major part of Bristish society for many centuries, we may as well dismiss anything prior to its being abolished - waddya think ?

You, Steve... and others are offering facile and deeply flawed arguments and no real alternatives
Much of this discussion can be solved by applying a little common sense
If the folk were capable of making folk songs, they probably did
If you believe they weren't, you need to say why
One wonders how so many living at the same time as was an oral tradition and a triving broadside trade, could have got it wrong for so long only to be proved wrong by a few researchers long after all that had died, shuffling papers
Nah - sorry - don't buy it
When somebody puts up a reasonable answer to these, and all the other contradictions, maybe I'll look into it - until then, I'll stich with the giants
Child, Bronson, Sharp and a century or so of research - all wrong - are you people serious, or is this a wind-up !!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 21 May 19 - 01:22 PM

Steve

It seems our posts crossed. Thanks for continuing the discussion on Lord Lovel. That sort of confirms what I had gleaned; interesting that it was regarded by some as a burlesque/parody. Maybe this was precisely because of the somewhat gothic nature of the story (Walpole in particular being bonkers about the gothic), the romantic rose ending, plus the bits of what I have called 'cliche' (would kids today call it a 'trope'?) including the 'milk white horse'? What do you think?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strawberry_Hill_House

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 21 May 19 - 02:16 PM

Cramer's Vocal Gems No.30 - 12 Comic Songs also includes Lord Lovel. (see copy at archive or copy at NLS. Published London, but no date that I can see.

Mick

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 21 May 19 - 02:20 PM

Jim, at the second go, was absolutely correct, they are nowadays referred to as 'commonplaces', although nothing wrong with 'cliche' when applied to a phrase. They include phrases, whole stanzas, and even in a few cases a whole series of stanzas (think 'rose & briar' ending in several ballads, and the sequence of stanzas in which the little foot boy runs off with a message). It's pretty certain that the 'rose & briar' ending was lifted from one of the earlier English ballads, but that's pretty irrelevant anyway as it exists in even earlier Danish ballads and probably others. 'The milk-white steed/hand/skin' can certainly be classed as cliché, but it's still a commonplace going back to manuscript era, so is found in the very earliest ballads. In fact I wouldn't be surprised to find it in pre-ballad material such as the romances. Someone with a knowledge of Arthurian lit will probably tell us it is.

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 21 May 19 - 02:25 PM

Ey up, Mick! Nice to have you in. I have 4 0r 5 copies of original sheet music, all different, c1850s. The main singer seems to have been J. W. Sharp. Apart from the songs themselves I have copies of comic opera posters using LL as the basis for burlettas. It was very 'popular'!

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 21 May 19 - 02:50 PM

Ps, I can recommend:
Commonplace and Creativity, by Flemming G. Andersen
Morning Dew and Roses, by Barre Toelken
and for 'incremental repetition' and similar, Recentering Anglo-American Folksong, Roger DeV Renwick.

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 21 May 19 - 03:05 PM

Mick
Cramer & Co were under that name and address from 1863 to 1872. But all of the songs in that songster date back to at least the 1820s.

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 21 May 19 - 04:34 PM

Dave, Brian???

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 May 19 - 04:49 PM

See the opening post. Sorry to be obscure!

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 21 May 19 - 05:06 PM

Okay. Got you.

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 May 19 - 06:50 PM

I find ballads challenging to s8ng and enjoyable particularly satisfying areballads that involve audience participation in singing examples my son david or the swan swims so bonny

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 22 May 19 - 07:48 AM

@ D the G

Sorry if I've made the thread drift, it was about learning more, and then somebody mentioned a specific ballad, so I read a bit about that.

And thanks for the constructive comments and helpful suggestions for further reading to Steve.


Generally:

"Cliche and commonplace are chalk and cheese - one is dismissive, the other a simple description - it isn't an adjective, it's a verb" ????

I think we have been using both as nouns, though the word 'commonplace' has certainly been used as a verb in the past and may well be used in that way in some work on ballads.

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 May 19 - 07:57 AM

Doesn't learning about ballads are doomed to end in acrimony say everything that needs to be said about the state of the folk scene in \britain Dave ?

No. It tells us that people are no longer prepared to accept received wisdom.

Pseudonymous. No need to apologise. It takes two to tango!

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 22 May 19 - 08:01 AM

Toelken: just looked at the intro on Amazon. He references Lakoff and Johnson which I have as it happens. It interested me to note he refers to 'the ballad wars', which seems to me to prove a point I made above that it is invalid to suggest that over 100 years a fund of 'knowledge' about folk songs was built up when in fact over 100 years there have been a number of lively debates. Then it moves on to the 'oral formulaic' theory about which I have heard a little in a different context (ie stuff about the Ancient Greeks). Another source of discussion and divergent opinions it seems!


Looks like inter-library loans will be busy!

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: GUEST
Date: 22 May 19 - 08:19 AM

On 'milk-white' horses, the OED has something suggesting the use of milk-white steeds in 1339. Source for this given as Joseph Ritson's 19th century study of metrical romances. So Steve seems dead on with his idea of romances as a possible source of examples.

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 22 May 19 - 11:51 AM

Steve - thanks for the info on the Cramer booklet.

Mick

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 22 May 19 - 04:12 PM

Do we need a definition of 'troll' then?:)

Is 'flamer' a contraction of 'inflamer'? I thought it was a local dialect word in our part of Yorkshire, as applied to naughty children 'You little flamer! I'll skelp yer if I get hold of yer!

I'll get me coat!

---

Approximately 1/3 of this thread was removed to take out the off-topic squabbling. If you'll stop responding to trolling and simply ignore off-topic posts you'll be doing us all a favor. Thanks.

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 22 May 19 - 04:20 PM

By the way, I have found some background information on Bronson and his methodology via JSTOR. It would appear that he used some kind of statistical techniques to try to identify tune families - though I have not yet been able to access the full article, being up to the limit on my monthly allowance. I suppose that today he might have used computer techniques to do this.

For anybody interested the reference is

Some Observations about Melodic Variation in British-American Folk Tunes
Bertrand Harris Bronson
Journal of the American Musicological Society
Vol. 3, No. 2 (Summer, 1950), pp. 120-134

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 22 May 19 - 04:28 PM

Regarding romances, whilst it's relatively quiet here I am leafing through the Percy Folio Manuscripts looking for interesting bits. The scholarship of the editors, Hales and Furnivall, is astounding. I'm not reading every word of every romance as I'm looking for other things and some are 40 pages long, but whilst I'm coming across commonplace phrases and lines I'm not seeing much in the way of whole stanzas. Although they are very different in some ways to the ballads many of them are written in ballad metres. What is curious then is that almost no ballads as we know them have any evidence of existence prior to c1450. Some of their stories certainly were in existence, but not in ballad form. Off the top of my head the only romance I can call to mind that was rewritten as a ballad was Hind Horn but that also still exists in story form anyway. I'm sure there were others.

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 22 May 19 - 04:31 PM

Incidentally I am aware that there was once a school of thought that the ballads preceded the romances and evolved into the romances. However, as there is no evidence whatsoever for this I certainly wouldn't subscribe to it.

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: GUEST,keberoxu
Date: 22 May 19 - 05:03 PM

(brava / bravo / bravi tutti) thanks for saving the discussion

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 22 May 19 - 05:25 PM

I suppose, then, that one could suggest that the romances, which came to be written in prose, were fore-runners of the novel, which is still called 'roman' in French, rather than the ballad. Various genres of novel, including the gothic stuff started by Walpole. Some stuff from romance ended up in Shakespeare, as we know, and other plays.

I must say I've only sketchy knowledge of medieval 'literature', though I do have a book of 'early medieval lyrics' in which there isn't much if anything that looks like a ballad, though the editor says that some of the material has a folk feel (but doesn't define what he means by this!).

I still feel that Lord Lovel has a sense of the 'romance' eg the man dying for love (literally, as opposed to being love-sick), his being a Lord riding a white horse. The rose imagery too perhaps. But this is a personal response of course. I could not claim and didn't mean to claim for it a direct link to any particular romance.

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 22 May 19 - 05:40 PM

On the other hand, the tragic element doesn't seem typical of the romance, though tragedies were written eg by Chaucer, these being of the 'wheel of fortune' i.e. just happy life turned into bad luck type, rather than the tragic flaw type etc.

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 22 May 19 - 06:40 PM

There's plenty of tragedy in the Arthurian romances. I would say in my experience (which isn't great in terms of romances) the actual subject matter and plot-types are pretty much the same. The romances of course are much longer and are often several stories wound together, whereas by and large ballads are based around a single event with only a few leading characters involved. If they deviate drastically from this we start to get suspicious of how they came into being.

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 23 May 19 - 04:05 AM

Thanks, Steve. What you say makes sense.


I don't know a lot about Romances either, though perhaps a bit more than the average person, but my understanding (probably picked up from some Radio 4 programmes or other) is that the Arthurian ones were largely put together by the Normans (ie the French) in more or less a deliberate attempt to invent a 'mythology' for their the land they conquered in 1066, albeit, perhaps, based loosely on bits and pieces from old documents/legends/lore and so on. For example, it is believed that 'Tintagel' would really have been a very wealthy place because they got a lot of money by exporting tin all over Europe. And the Norman/French link might explain the French type 'belle' name mentioned above. But I conjecture and would be happy to be corrected.

By the way I found a little more about Bronson from the introduction to my copy of the new Penguin Book of English Folk Song, edited by Roud and Bishop. I knew I had read something about him in the past! He devised a star shaped model of musical modes as well as a theory of tune families (and there was also another chap who had a similar theory).

This book also has a section on Lord Lovel, which summarises ideas on the topic and states if I remember aright, that Bronson found over 70 different tunes used by it. I think it is a useful little book, but regret buying the Kindle verson as a 'real' one might have been more useful. But there you go.

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 23 May 19 - 04:37 AM

One last thought, the intertwining rose at the end of Lord Lovel seems reminiscent of one ending of the Tristan and Iseult story, another of those tales with a complicated history, and, I think, a 'romance'. So it is another 'trope' that links Lord Lovel to romances. There is a section on that story on Wikipedia.

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 23 May 19 - 04:45 AM

'Tintagel' in my post above probably/possibly should have been 'Camelot'.... point is the same, whoever was ruling Cornwall ( home of Arthur in some legends) would have been well off due to the tin.

Child Ballad no 30 anybody for ballad-romance links?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Arthur_and_King_Cornwall

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 23 May 19 - 09:20 AM

My piddling observations on KA & KC. I would deem it an intermediate between a romance and a ballad. It is as Child states based on prose form romances themselves with some slight evidence of having been derived from something metrical, but not in Britain. Had Child had the full version he would probably have classified it with the several other romances given in PFM which he didn't include. However, in its favour it has some of the language and commonplace of the ballad, more than the usual romance. Against it it has too much going on and too many individual characters involved. Either way there is absolutely no evidence of oral tradition or continuance after 1640 other than being copied in anthologies.

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: GUEST
Date: 23 May 19 - 09:30 AM

Hello Steve

I have been looking at various romances, summaries via York Uni and whole texts via Un of Rochester and cannot see how these can be said to have grown out of ballads, though in cases bits of the tropes in the narratives seem to ring bells. I agree with you that it looks unlikely that romances developed from ballads.

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 23 May 19 - 10:42 AM

Sorry that was me, last post above. Or rather, a la KA and the KC,

Then bespake him pseudonymous
And these were the words said he

I think I would agree with Thomas Hahn that KA and the KC has a roughly balladic metre.

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 23 May 19 - 01:00 PM

Several romances in PFM are in ballad metre but are far to long and involved to qualify as ballads. However The Geste is somewhat like a romance in length but is a collection of ballads strung together.

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 24 May 19 - 03:38 AM

Regarding Bronson: I've been browsing the intro to an Atkinson book on Amazon. He says Bronson had an adage that a ballad isn't a ballad without a tune, which supports something I have been trying to say. Atkinson says you can study the words as opposed to the words and music together and that at present we don't really have a vocabulary to discuss the two together, but that even though some ballads are sung to many different tunes, each time it is a mixture of words and tune and the two really ultimately work together. I have seen some books which try to use 'semiotics' to analyse words and music together, so maybe this is something for the future as regards folklore.

Regarding commonplaces, Atkinson seems to suggest that this phrase refers to bits of the narrative and in particular to actions rather than to the 'noun phrases' I picked out, which are basically adjectives plus noun as in 'lily-white steed'. He refers to the work of one Flemming Andersen. Atkinson says that the term 'commonplace' is dismissive, interestingly in view of previous comments here.

Atkinson defines commonplaces as 'pieces of ballad text that describe common narrative ideas' and the examples are examples of things that people do eg 'He's ta'en her by the lily white hand'. Another example he gives is 'she kilted her kirtle/she took her mantle her about'. Atkinson says these standard linguistic units have connotations as a result of their appearance in more than one ballad. I won't attempt to summarise any more of what he says.


These examples are not exactly what I was discussing when I raised the 'lily-white steed' example, as that was not strictly a part of 'narrative' , but, before anybody gets hot and bothered, I am glad to have been pointed in the direction of this concept of the 'commonplace' and have added Atkinson to my 'do order from inter-library loan'.

The general preface to the book goes on to make some comments which support the thinking behind my suggestion that folk music might not be 'great art', though I doubt that this is the sort of forum to explore these ideas ie discussions about what is 'great art'.

Thanks again for mentioning the commonplace and for the suggested further reading.

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 May 19 - 07:39 AM

"He says Bronson had an adage that a ballad isn't a ballad without a tune, "
Probably one of his most quoted sayings
It might be advisable to swot up on the expert before you condemn them out of hand
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 May 19 - 08:07 AM

Seriously - the statement appears on the first page of his collection - if you have to go to Amazon to discover it you haven't seen the collection
Your lack of understanding on ballad terms indicates that the subject you are pontificating on and condemning - Mrs Whitehouse was pretty well known or that sort of thing
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 24 May 19 - 08:22 AM

Though I will point out that in my post above I corrected you on whether "lily white steed" was a commonplace, having checked the definition in one of the very books you are insisting I should read.

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 May 19 - 09:02 AM

"Not playing Jim. Go wind somebody else up."
It appears you are more comfortable at abusing rather than puting up a half decent case Pseud - fine by me
It puts your arguments where they need to be
The quote you stumbled across on Amazon is the opening one in the work whose validity you are questioning, which makes it plain that you have not even seen it
No wind-up intended, I can assure you.
The work of Bronson, along with Child, who is also included in your attacks, forms the basis of our knowledge of the ballads - one would have thought that if you are going to pull them to pieces you must have examined them rather than having to scout round the internet for random, out of context quotes
I would highly recommend Bronson's excellent collection of essays, 'The Ballad as Song' for detailed analyses of the genre
I ask again - can you please keep your abusive behaviour in check for the sake of those who wish to seriously discuss the ballad - it has no place here
Jim

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 24 May 19 - 09:13 AM

I really do find you amusing, Jim. This latest set of posts have made by day. Thank you.

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 May 19 - 09:16 AM

"This latest set of posts have made by day. Thank you."
Pleased to be of assistance
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 24 May 19 - 09:36 AM

I love Ballads and have been listening to them for many years,and I occasionally work up the courage to sing a few from time to time. I am by no means a scholar on this subject. However, I have really enjoyed (except for the argumentative bits) this thread and have learned a great deal. This is what is grand about mudcat...But why do these threads always seem to get hijacked. Oh well, still enjoyable if you ignore the negative aspects. Gives me lots to think about regarding ballads...thank you.

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 24 May 19 - 09:43 AM

I have never "attacked" Bronson, or attempted to 'pull him to pieces'. Nor Child. I have no idea where you get this from. It strikes me as bonkers to the extent that it is funny.

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 May 19 - 09:45 AM

As this is about the enjoyment of the singing of ballads I thought I'd put this up
Makes sense to me
Jim Carroll

Sleeve notes to five volume series, 'Blood and Roses', Traditional ballads from Scotland and North America

Over a decade has passed since our last ballad project. This was The Long Harvest, made for Argo Records, and it consisted of ten albums of the English and Scottish Popular Ballads in their English, Scots and North American variants. Blood and Roses is another major ballad venture. Instead of presenting well-known ballads in their numerous variants, we are concentrating on lesser known traditional ballads, and we hope to bring out another volume every year.
WHEN IS A BALLAD NOT A BALLAD? WHEN IT HAS NO TUNE. It is with this conundrum and its answer that Professor Bronson opens his introduction to The Traditional Tunes of the Child Ballads. While agreeing with the spirit of the answer, we would go a little further and say that "a ballad is not a ballad until it is sung."
We have been singing ballads for quite a long time. Of the hundred-and-forty albums we have made, more than half have contained at least one or two ballads; and as far as live concerts and clubs are concerned, we both regard the ballads as a necessary part of any program.
What is it about the ballads that we find so fascinating? Well, the stories them¬selves are first rate. They have certainly stood the test of time, and that isn't a bad recommendation. Then again — their poetry can be breathtaking. Most of the ballads that we sing contain some memorable lines: perhaps it is just a phrase, a line of incremental repetition, or it can be an entire stanza; but however brief the moment of pure poetry, it generally generates enough light and heat to radiate an entire ballad. Finally, there is the element of challenge. The mere length of most of the ballads is challenge enough. We sometimes regard them as actors regard the great classic roles of Hamlet, Lady MacBeth, Clytemnestra and King Lear.
On the face of it, the challenge is a formidable one. You are faced with an audience made up of a number of separate individuals who may or may not share anything in common (other than the more or less sophisticated attitude to life and each other, which is the result of long exposure to TV and radio, with its instant news, instant politics, instant simulated passion yelled, sobbed and moaned by a never-ending succession of pop-singers). And the ballad singer, for the next eight or ten (or ten or twelve) minutes is going to sing a tale in the form of a long narrative poem organised into twenty or thirty (or more) quatrains, tied to a melody that will be repeated every four lines. Not much room for manoeuvre! Furthermore, the poetry is of a kind that few people in the audience have had the opportunity to become familiar with. It is full of odd usages, repetitions, strange combinations of romantic love and incredible violence. To complicate matters still further, some of the texts are in braid Scots. A challenge indeed ...!
Occasionally the challenge has been taken up with results that have been less than encouraging. Experiments have adorned "Sir Patrick Spens" with spangles and a rock accompaniment; they have dragged "Barbara Allen", protesting, into the Middle Ages to the (albeit skilled) thrumming of shawms and crumhorns. But the ballads don't lend themselves to this kind of treatment. They don't make good 'production numbers'. The poetry gets in the way: too much action, too many incidents, and the quality of the language leads to a kind of rock parody. The words of the ballads have something of the feeling of stones fashioned into a smooth perfection by endless tides. Attempts to create settings, arrangements for the poetry only succeed in making it seem overdressed — like putting a silk garter on the Venus de Milo. Also, in a curious way, a ballad appears to find difficulty breathing inside an arrangement, for though the bond that fuses the ballad text and tune into a single whole is oddly flexible and appears to be constantly shifting its centre of gravity, it appears to be unable to function in the proximity of foreign musical influences.
Our own feelings for the ballads are something that we have nurtured throughout most of our joint working life as singers. Time and again we have returned to this or that ballad and discovered something new in it. Occasionally we have been led to conduct major explorations into territory that we thought we already knew. The end result has been the complete reworking of a ballad ... and a new search for the right degree of tension to match one's new understanding of the piece. Find the right amount of tension and sustaining it over thirty or forty stanzas: that's where the skill lies!
And what is tension? It is compounded of many elements. It is the right weight of vocal attack, the weight which best suits the theme and the nature of the ballad; it is the right tempo, the one in which the action of the story has time to unfold without confusing the listener; it is the right pulse, that is the right combination of breathing, articulation, sense and shape of the tune; it is complete empathy with words and music; it is the right length of pause, of silence between the verses, during which both listener and singer make the jump in thinking to a new unit of the story; and finally, it is creative judgement, the singer's knowledge of how far tune and text can be teased out and worked in each performance without destroying any part of the ballad's structure; it is the singer's ability to add colour to a word, to thicken or attenuate a line, to let a hint of harshness creep into the tone, to suggest that somewhere — not far off—there is a laugh lying in wait . . . and to be able to do all these things without upsetting the delicate balance of the ballad and, moreover, without the listener being aware that it is being done.
There comes a moment during the singing of a long ballad when everything is working. You have moved into the story crabwise, not giving too much of yourself at first. Then, suddenly, for a moment you are conscious of the people listening, and they are all breathing in time with you! And all around you there is silence, except for the voice guiding you through the ineluctable dark landscape of the ballad.
Ewan MacColl and Peggy Seeger

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: Iains
Date: 24 May 19 - 11:59 AM

TO me there are two ways available for the analysis of a ballad.
There is a rigid scientific method based on a series of rules anyone can follow. i.e.it is objective.
Then there is a personal analysis that is subjective and may well be accepted or disputed by others. Both can offer something but the latter approach reminds me of a Guardian(newspaper) wine aficionado using a stylised language that borders on being pretentious.
I am happy to be shouted down on that interpretation. It is simply how I see it.

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 May 19 - 01:15 PM

For me, the thing to remember about the ballads is, whether they are of 'common origin' or not, it is 'the common people' who have kept them alive down the centuries as "good stories" - the non-literate Travellers being undoubtedly the most important
For a singer, analysing them can be an added pleasure but, apart from the historical social, folkloristic and vernacular issues, they virtually sing themselves and the more you 'do' to them, the more barriers you create to making them work
The wine analogy isn't a bad one, though only god knows why 'The Guardian' should be singled out - the pretentiousness surrounding a drink you either like or don't is a world wide affectation and a running joke.
It seems to me that some academics have created an unnecessary mystique around the ballads without understanding their basic function or the people who sang them.
When impoverished and non-literate Traveller, John Reilly, turned up with a stunning repertoire of ballads, including the centuries disappeared, 'Maid and the Palmer' there was a murner of disbelief rom academics and claims that 'he must have learned them from print'; utter nonsense - of course.
Travellers have been a major source of many of our rarest ballads
Duncan Williamson's stunning repertoire of ballads and stories was greeted with the same scepticism.
It reminded me of the story of how, after making passionate love, a titled lady asked her husband: "Do poor people do this, my love?"
The reply came, "Yes my dear"
She responded, "Well, it's too damned good for them"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 24 May 19 - 03:09 PM

I think the idea that text and tune go together is wishful thinking. The statement that a ballad is not a ballad without a tune is ridiculous in the extreme. The earlier collectors had many of their versions recited. As I stated earlier, Greig's most prolific informant recited every one of her ballads. A substantial percentage of Child Ballads have no evidence whatsoever of a tune, as a simple glance through Bronson will tell you.

David is entitled to use the word 'commonplace' in any way he wishes, but the word should not be taken as derogatory just as 'cliche' has a meaning that is in no way derogatory. Also in its broadest sense 'commonplace' can refer to any grouping of words you want, a single word if you wish. The fact that some academics only want it to apply to their preferences is neither here nor there.

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 24 May 19 - 03:11 PM

By the way, Ps, I think 'humour' is the best response in more ways than one.

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 May 19 - 03:22 PM

"I think 'humour' is the best response in more ways than one."
Wonder if he finds it as humorous that someone pontificating on the ballads ahs to go to Amazon blurbs for what is common knowledge to anybody who has the slightest interest in ballads ?
Doubt if somehow
Why prolong nastiness that has run its course Steve (rhetorical question, of course)
Jim

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 24 May 19 - 03:26 PM

I'm quite happy for anyone to go to whatever source is available to them to get their knowledge, even Mudcat which is not as far as I know peer reviewed!

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 24 May 19 - 05:06 PM

'Commonplace' when used as an adjective can be used in a derogatory way, but when used as a noun in relation to aspects of literature there is no derogatory meaning. It is simply used to refer to anything that notedly occurs in numerous pieces of literature. Cliché similarly although it usually refers to a single word or short phrase. Again it can be used in a derogatory way but it doesn't have to be.

Could one use the word 'commonplace' to refer to certain mantras repeated on Mudcat ad nauseam?

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 24 May 19 - 06:02 PM

@Steve

Of course not all ballads are designed to be sung, but, and in this I may be at fault, I thought this thread was about ballads as folk song.

The ideas I was contesting, and I think I have as much right as anybody else to do this, are a) that the melody or tune contributes nothing to the overall effect, meaning in a broad semiotic sense, of the performance of a ballad and b) that when you have said all there is to say about the words/text (if that is possible) you have said all there is to say about the ballad.

I'm reasonably well informed about the uses of terminology within studies of literature, having a degree for starters. Incidentally, we covered some old stuff like Beowulf and Chaucer, so I do have some background against which to evaluate the idea that ballads came before Romances. Steve, you said some people held this view; you disagreed with it and so do I.

If anybody isn't sure what romances were like, think Arthurian legends and Don Quixote (though that was a parody of the romance) and you'll be broadly on the right lines. Mixture of Christian ideas, old stories pre-dating the Norman Conquest and influences from Europe. Indeed, some romances were translated into Medieval English from European languages.

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 24 May 19 - 06:33 PM

As it happens, I co-wrote something that got 'collected' - and - now I come to think of it - it was a ballad.

But I come close to feeding the trolls...

Humours. Haar Haar. :)

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 May 19 - 03:17 AM

"But I come close to feeding the trolls..."
Can I suggest that, for the sake of this thread and in respect to the op this stops now ?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 25 May 19 - 03:41 AM

Sorry, troll, singular. Currently acting all innocent as usual. The only thing is to steer clear away from any thread with him on it, which means a number of potentially interesting ones.

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 May 19 - 04:04 AM

If you continue behaving abusively I will ask a moderator to have your postings removed
I really don't think it is the prerogative of a non member to instruct other members who and who nort to respond to
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 25 May 19 - 04:20 AM

wEll, I WAS enjoying this thread. then the usual happened .....in any case, I do hope that the supreme troll will be ignored and that a very interesting discussion of ballads may continue .

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 25 May 19 - 04:20 AM

It would help, Jim, if you could read. Now please stop in respect of the OP.

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 May 19 - 04:52 AM

Back to the subject
One of the constant joys of the ballads to me is the various forms the different versions take
This is a cante-fable version of the Ballad, 'The Marriage of Sir Gawain' from Maine, an area of the U.S. that has proved extremely rich in Child ballads, particularly brought in by incoming immigrants from Ireland in the latter half of the 19th century
In the early seventies we recorded a storyteller/singer who gave us a two-verse fragment of a song describing a chaotic wedding feast which. I suspect, might have been a broken-down piece of this ballad - there's not enough of it to be certain, but the area was which Seamus Delargy found so rich in traditional songs and tales when he was inspired to set up the Irish Folklore commission.
Jim Carroll

5 The Half-Hitch (Child 31)
Child gives the title of this ballad as "The Marriage of Sir Gawain", but the poetry of his sets has little in common with that of "The Half-Hitch", or "The Loathly Bride" as it is sometimes called. The themes, on the other hand, are consistent right back through a whole series of songs and stories from the Middle Ages: that a vow once given must be kept, and that a courteous knight is wed (by his vow) to a repulsive bride. The use of the cante-fable form (not mentioned in Child) adds to the local humour of our set, which comes from Maine.
(accompaniment: Peggy, on guitar)

It's of a rich merchant in Plymouth did dwell.
He had a fine daughter, most beautiful girl;
A young man of honour and riches supplied,
He courted this young girl to be his bride,
O, to be his bride.

He's courted her long till he gained her love.
At length she intended her young man to prove;
Once more he asked her, once more she denied,
She told him down plainly she would not be his bride
She would not be his bride

Of all the sad oaths that he to her did swear.
Saying, Straight home I quickly will steer;
I'll have the first woman who says she'll have me
Though she be as mean as the beggar can be,
As the beggar can be.

She's ordered her servants her love to delay.
Her rings and her jewels she quick laid away;
She put on all the old rags she could find,
She looked like the beggar before and behind,
Before and behind.

She blacked up her hands on the chimney back,
Her face likewise from corner to crack;
Then away down the road she flew like a witch.
With her petticoat hoisted all on her 'half-hitch'
All on her 'half-hitch'.

See now he comes a-riding, in haste he drew near.
He cried out, Alas! For my vow I do fear.
For she stubbed along with her shoe-heels askew.
He soon overtook her and said, Who be you?
And said. Who be you?

(spoken) I’m a woman, I guess.

This answer it struck him with fear to the heart,
He wished from his life that he soon might depart.
O heavens! cried he, But I wished I'd been buried,
And quickly he asked he, he says, Are you married?
He says, Are you married?

(spoken) No I ain't!

This answer it struck him unto a dead man.
He stumbled, he staggered, he hardly could stand.
O, how can I bear my hard burden? thought he,
So quickly he asked her, says, Will you have me?
Says, Will you have me?

(spoken) Well - yes, I guess I will if I have to.

This answer it suited as bad as the rest,
His heart it lay heavy in this young man's breast;
His courage near failed him, he durst not go home
His parents would think he was surely undone,
Surely undone.

His father said. Son you are sure for to rue,
But let's clean her up and it's maybe she'll do.
So published they were * and invited the guests,
And soon it was time for the bride to be dressed.
For the bride to be dressed.

(spoken) No, I guess I'll just get married in my old dirty clothes, I s'pose.

When the wedding was over, they sat down to eat,
With her hands she grabbed hold of the cabbage and meat.
Her fingers was burned and the tongues they did wag
As she licked them and wiped them all on her old rags,
All on her old rags.

Some laughed in their sleeves till their sides was bust in;
But fiercer than ever she at it again,
And as she sat grabbing they to her replied,
Go sit yourself down by your true lover's side,
By your true lover's side.

(spoken) No, I guess I'll just sit away in the dirty old chimney corner, I s'pose.

Some laughed in their sleeves till their sides they did ache,
And others with sorrow, right ready to break;
Come, give me a candle and I'll go to bed,
For I mean to go all by myself, she said.
By myself, she said.

(spoken) Husband! When you hear my old shoe go 'clong' then you may come up to me.

So upstairs she went and a-thrashing about.
His mother said, Son what's all this about?
O mother, dear mother, pray say not one word,
No comfort to me can this whole world afford,
This whole world afford.

(spoken) Husband! My old shoe done gone 'clong' a long'time ago. Ain’t you comin'?

So up he arose and he staggered along -
But they give him a candle and they bid him go on.
I'd rather to go in the darkness, he said,
For I very well know how to get to my bed,
How to get to my bed.

He launched into bed with his back to his bride,
But she rolled and she tumbled from side unto side;
She rolled till the bed-legs did holler and squeal.
He says, Dear what ails you? Why can't you lie still?
Why can't you lie still?

(spoken My shins are sore. Can't you get a candle to grease 'em by, dear?

So up he arose for to grease his wife's shins.
Behold, she lay dressed in the finest of things;
He says, Is it you, my dear jewel, at last?
She aaya, Yes it is, and our troubles are past,
Our troubles are past.

So downstairs they went and a frolic they had
And all them sad hearts waa merry and glad;
She looked like a picture, right pleasing to spy
With many full glasses, we bid them good-bye.
We bid them good-bye.

* This refers to publishing the banns, or announcing the forthcoming marriage.

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: GUEST,Kenny B
Date: 25 May 19 - 07:14 AM

Pete Seeger does a very nice version of The Half Hitch - Pete Seeger

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: GUEST
Date: 25 May 19 - 08:28 AM

Duncan Williamson's stunning repertoire of ballads and stories was greeted with the same scepticism.

In 1976 Williamson married the American-born musicologist/folklorist Linda Headlee, who had been working at the School of Scottish Studies. For the first four years of their marriage they lived in a tent, following which they lived in a cottage in Fife. It was largely through her that Duncan came into demand as a storyteller in Scottish schools, as well a featured performer at storytelling festivals both in the UK and abroad. She was the editor of several of his books of stories.
I have many recordings of Duncan made by myself and others dating from when I first heard him in Blairgowrie both as a singer and as storyteller in 1969. The pre- and post-Linda storytelling are very different, not better, not worse, just an entirely different approach. The later Duncan used a much smaller number of words in Travellers' cant than the earlier one. The later Duncan used much more explanation of context and language than the earlier one. None of this affected his powerful force as a storyteller but it did make him more accessible to a wider audience. Undoubtedly it helped his career as a professional storyteller from the mid-1970s. Numerous people have suggested that it was Linda's influence that brought about these changes.
The first time that I heard Duncan sing stands like a beacon in my memory. At the Blairgowrie Festivals there was usually a Sunday afternoon event - "The Archie Fisher Invitation Concert" where he was allowed to choose anyone that he had met during the weekend - festival guests, friends, interesting singers and musicians that he has met during the weekend. Duncan was one of the invitees. I don't suppose that he had ever been in a stage before and he was going to make the most of this opportunity.
He chose to sing the Waterloo-Cup song Master McGrath and he sang it to the tune of Villikins and His Dinah. The singing style was Frank Sinatra-crooner. Arms spread wide or clutching his heart, down on one knee with a sob in his voice, the full works.... There was some sniggering around me, but I couldn't join in; I was entranced.
After the marriage to Linda, lots of ballads came out that had not been heard from him before. This could have been because she encouraged him to try to engage with his earlier repertoire though it has been suggested (certainly without proof) that she may have introduced some ballads to him. I am certainly not going to express an opinion on this and in most ways I would not count it as centrally important. Duncan sang them, brought a lot of himelf into the performance and that is what matters to me. However, I hope this explains why his stunning repertoire of ballads and stories was greeted with...... scepticism.

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: Vic Smith
Date: 25 May 19 - 08:48 AM

Vic Smith has now restored the cookie that must have disappeared (along with a lot of his weight) during his illness. The post at 25 May 19 - 08:28 AM was by the now restored - in both senses of the word - Vic Smith

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 May 19 - 08:50 AM

We visited Duncan and Linda several times at their home hoping to record tales - at the time that was what he was known for.
When he found we were also interested in songs and ballads, he insisted on singing them - fine by us.
Duncan explained that he was putting together some ballads he only partly remembered by visiting family members and Traveller friend (pretty much as Walter Pardon did when he started to put his family's repertoire together)
Personally, I can't see that this in any way makes either singer's repertoire suspect.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: Vic Smith
Date: 25 May 19 - 11:27 AM

If you do like ballads... then you must buy, beg, borrow or steal a copy of The Muckle Sangs (Classic Scots Ballads) which was first released as a Double LP on Tangent Records ?– TNGM 119/D in 1975. Then it was re-released in January 1992 on the Greentrax label as a single CD CDTRAX9005 I have just checked and it is still available from the Greentrax website. In my opinion it is the finest commercial release of the singing of the Classic Ballads by traditional singers. The comprehensive and informative booklet notes were compiled by Hamish Henderson and Ailie Munro.
The track listings from the original vinyl releases are as follows:-
A1         Glenlogie – John Adams
A2a         The Gypsy Laddies – Jeannie Robertson
A2b         The Roving Ploughboy – John MacDonald
A3a         The False Knight Upon The Road– Bella Higgins
A3b         The False Knight Upon The Road– Duncan MacPhee
A3c         The False Knight Upon The Road– Nellie MacGregor
A4         The Bonnie Banks O' Fordie– Minnie Haman
A5         The Twa Brothers – Sheila MacGregor
B1a         Tam Lin– Betsy Johnson
B1b         Tam Lin – Willie Whyte
B2         The Knight And The Shepherd's Daughter– Lizzie Higgins
B3         The Bold Peddler– Geordie Robertson
B4         The Twa Sisters– Betsy Whyte
B5         The Jolly Beggar– Lizzie Higgins
C1a         Lord Thomas And Fair Ellen– Jessie Murray
C1b         Lord Thomas And Fair Ellen – Willie Edward
C2         Young Johnston– Betsy Whyte
C3a         Young Beicham (Lord Bateman)– Campbell MacLean
C3b         Young Beicham (Lord Bateman)– Bella Higgins
C4         The Keach In The Creel– Jimmy MacBeath
D1a         Clyde's Water – John Strachan
D1b         Clyde's Water – Willie Edward
D2         The Hugh And The Jew's Daughter– Margaret Stewart
D3         The Broom O' The Cowdenknowes– Jimmy MacBeath
D4         Jamie Telfer O' The Fair Dodhead– Willie Scott
D5a         Andrew Lammie– Jane Turriff
D5b         Andrew Lammie– Sheila MacGregor

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 May 19 - 11:44 AM

Amen to that Vic
Good to see it's still around
Jim

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 25 May 19 - 02:52 PM

Helen Hartness Flanders on the American ballad 'The Half-Hitch' who collected the version given above. (Roud 1887)(Laws N23).

"To call 'The H-H' a form of Child 31 is to stretch the concept of the 'secondary ballad' to its limits."
"That this comic song is the result of urban presses or music halls seems certain"
"Surely, efforts such as those by Phillips Barry in BBfM p382-385, to relate the song to Child 31 are wishful."

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 25 May 19 - 02:54 PM

It is nothing like a cantefable, much more like the early nineteenth century comic pieces that were interpolated with bits of spoken word.

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 25 May 19 - 03:07 PM

Hi Ps,
The explanations of commonplace/cliché were not aimed at you or anybody specific for that matter. I was just clarifying the differences and explaining that both words have other uses than derogatory ones, as we had misinformation on this earlier.

BTW, I have no problem whatsoever with your guest status and welcome your very sensible contributions. The nearest I get to degree is a T-cert, but I have written 5 books and numerous articles on the history of folksong. Both my sons and my wife have good degrees, but I somehow missed out. Too late now at my time of life! There are 2 solid reasons why I didn't go to uni, sheer bloody laziness and I don't like being told what to do.

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: GUEST
Date: 25 May 19 - 03:40 PM

'If you do like ballads... then you must buy, beg, borrow or steal a copy of The Muckle Sangs (Classic Scots Ballads) which was first released as a Double LP on Tangent Records ?–'


Or get one of the 3 copies of the lp on ebay

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 May 19 - 03:55 PM

"It is nothing like a cantefable, much more like the early nineteenth century comic pieces "
Sigh......
It's exactly like a cante-fable - unless the rules have been changed by the new crowd
This gets tiresome Steve - I've been around enough authoritative people where exactly this ballad and our own 'Go For the Water' has been discussed as such
Bronson has no compunction in including it as a ballad, his only reservation is that there is no evidence of other versions in this form
I'm getting a little tired of these definitive statements based on no evidence whatever
If 'That little Shirt My Mother made For me' can be a folk song, then I'm damn sure a cante fable of this type can be regarded as what it has been widely recognised as for a long time
Please stop this one-upmanship
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 25 May 19 - 04:30 PM

Oxford Reference 2003
Cantefable: A technical term for spoken prose narratives interspersed with short songs conveying crucial information (e.g., magical utterances, riddles, threats, etc.)

The well-known ones are those folk tales that contain a short repeated rhyme of some sort: e.gs., 'Orange' 'The Golden Ball'(of which 'Maid Freed' is thought to be a survival).

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 25 May 19 - 04:45 PM

If you really, really do like ballads and enjoy hearing them performed live (instead of or in addition to discussing what is and isn't a ballad) by an excellent young singer Elizabeth LaPrelle is appearing at a FOLK Club in ENGLAND on Sunday 16th June at Walthamstow, London. Her mother Sandy Newlin is also appearing with her.

I guess they are appearing at other clubs around the country but I can't find a schedule.

For those of you who are unaware of Elizabeth she resides near Rural Retreat in Virginia. I believe this is her third UK tour in the last three years or so. I may be more.

Check her out on You Tube

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 25 May 19 - 05:35 PM

@Steve: thanks for this.

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 25 May 19 - 06:03 PM

I thought the term 'cantefable' might lead to some discussion. It is one I had come across but not thought deeply about.

By googling I found an Oxford Refence definition from Oxford's A Dictionary of English Folklore which is specific that the term refers to a mostly prose piece interspersed with short songs.

The OED online is interesting on the term 'cantefable'. It is first found in an old French piece which calls itself a chantefable, and the cantefable spelling came later and seems to have co-existed with the earlier. The French piece was Aucassin_and_Nicolette and was a prose piece with some interspersed singing. It is often seen as a parody of various genres including our old friends the 'geste' and the 'romance'. If Wiki is right that is.

It therefore seems likely, I would suggest, that uses of the term to refer to what are basically songs/verses with a bit of prose between verses/stanzas might be much later, ie made up by a 'new crowd'.

Interestingly, the examples of used given in the OED dictionary include one from a US journal in which Leadbelly's 'talking blues' are called by that name. So the term seems to have been applied to a range of quite different 'texts' in more modern times.

These are just a few scraps of information, not meant to be a definitive or comprehensive history of the word and its many usages. Happy to be corrected if wrong.

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 May 19 - 04:47 AM

Steve
For someone who has joined those who have turned the term folk song on its head it's beyond me how you can offer a dictionary definition of Cante-fable
The term refers generally to a mixture of song and story, whether one or the other dominates
Alan Bruford first pointed out this ballad as being such at an EFDSS conference in Leeds where we both gave papers
We really don't need this, as Hoot says, we're here to discuss our enjoyment of the ballads
If it comes to a choice between the two opinions, personally......... !
"It is nothing like a cantefable, much more like the early nineteenth century comic pieces "
Helen Hartness Flanders got the ballad in 1930 from a 96 year old singer who described remembering it from her mother's who lived to be around the same age, singing
Her mother learned it from one of her parents - which puts it some time in the 18th century.

"Elizabeth LaPrelle "
Can't remember if you put her singing up recently Hoot - I think she was taking workshops
Very impressive
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 26 May 19 - 05:25 AM

This is my take on it.

1 This thread originally was put up to inform us of an opportunity to learn about ballads. The heading has an ellipsis, indicating that it is not a complete sentence or thought. The OP continues that you might want to learn more about them and mentions a course, which looks very interesting. If there is a need for a thread on 'Why I like ballads', a different topic, then perhaps somebody might start one.


2 Even a cursory glance at the work on folk song that has been done over the last hundred years shows that there has been a range of ideas, some controversies and 'ballad wars' and so on.

There will therefore be honest differences of opinion, as there have been throughout one hundred years of scholarship.

3 It is, therefore, perfectly valid to hold and express an opinion different from that of another person.

4 On the other hand, it would be negative and, in my view, would add nothing to anyone's knowledge or enjoyment, to see the debate in terms of a court case, or a battle, or to claim that somebody expressing disagreement with an idea is engaging in one upmanship.

5 Requesting people to stop discussing the topic altogether, apparently on the basis that one feels disagreement with their ideas is not likely to add to anybody's understanding. On the contrary, it is likely to have the dual effect of driving people away and preventing precisely the sort of active discussion that leads to the best sort of learning.

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 26 May 19 - 05:30 AM

On the topic of what I know something about, I will add theory of music to the list. Therefore, when I do get round to reading Bronson, I guess I shall stand a better chance of following his discussion of modes and so on than some other posters. Depends how complicated it is.

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 26 May 19 - 05:43 AM

Lastly for now, as I have stuff to do, Child 31.

There is already a Mudcat thread for that particular Child number. I would suggest that that is the place for further discussion of that topic in detail? (Though discussion of the different uses of 'cantefable' might be relevant here, depending on how far you see it as linked to learning about ballads).

In addition, JHW kindly provided a link near the top of this page to a web site on Child. I've been looking at what it has to say on Child 31 and also at the actual Child 31. <> Well worth a look.

Naturally, the question of whether the 'Hitch' piece should be regarded as an example of Child 31 is one upon which 'the authorities' who have discussed folk music over the last 100 years have disagreed.

My own thinking, and yes, I have only read a few sections and a couple of other pieces by Child, is that he would probably have wanted to consign the song copied and pasted above to the dunghill.

My view is that, if Child compared it with, say, the treatment of a somewhat similar theme by Chaucer, in the Wife of Bath's tale, he would conclude that Chaucer has a much more interesting story. And I'm guessing Child might agree.

I'm not saying that it isn't amusing, or likeable, just that it doesn't go much beyond that for me. But probably this ought to be on the thread about Child 31.

Amused to note the objection to using a dictionary: excellent source if one wanted to make a judgement about older and new fangled uses of a term as it cites examples from the past. In my view, using the term 'cantefable' to refer to any mixture of prose and verse could be seen as robbing the term of some of its specificity.

Thank you for reading.

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 26 May 19 - 06:14 AM

Here is the link, it didn't work before.

http://bluegrassmessengers.com/31-the-marriage-of-sir-gawain.aspx

Hope you enjoy reading!

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 26 May 19 - 07:50 AM

Richie M regular on Mudcat

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 26 May 19 - 07:51 AM

Mudcat contributed a lot to website.

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 26 May 19 - 08:56 AM

Gotcha Steve! Yes Mudcat is off and on. It is a great site. So much work must have gone into it!

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 May 19 - 10:15 AM

I don’t believe it to be the job of anybody, member or guest, to direct where a discussion should take place – the question of cante-fables was raised and challenged here, as far as I’m concerned, an ideal place to deal with it
'Cante Fable
Funk and Wagnall’s ‘Standard Dictionary of Folklore’ gives versions of ‘Little Musgrave’, ‘Maid Freed from the Gallows, ‘Our Goodman’, Rock Island Line’ and ‘Frankie and Albert’ as examples of the genre – good enough for me.   

"Apparently on the basis that one feels disagreement with their ideas"        
No-one here is suggesting difference of opinion is wrong - it is the arrogant and often insulting terms in which those differences are expressed that cause the problems
Perhaps we can leave it there eh ?
Jim

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 May 19 - 01:19 PM

Orif not - report me for it
I'm getting tired of open dishonesty being used as a firm of intimidation
If it continues, I will report those responsible
How dare you people sabotage a good thread in this manner
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: Jeri
Date: 26 May 19 - 03:40 PM

I think the fight in this thread started here. When you look at who picks fights with people, it's you.

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 26 May 19 - 04:50 PM

It would be far better to debate the 'cantefable' definition with what Funk and Wagnall actually define it as. Versions of 'Little Musgrave' as a cantefable? Haven't seen any of these. Perhaps Richie can enlighten us, or better still F&W must surely give references we can look at.

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 26 May 19 - 05:18 PM

I don't think I had met the term "cante fable" anywhere before I met it in one or other thread here. But I have been understanding it as explained above: a tale which incorporates short snatches of song. How widely has it been used for specimens with different proportions, such as "The Half Hitch" which is the other way round?

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 26 May 19 - 06:02 PM

Just as an aside I once recorded a version of Lord Bateman in the 60s from a lady who learnt it from her father. She sang about half of the verses but those she couldn't remember she recited in prose, so accurately that we were able to piece together the full ballad. The effect of her performance on that day was something similar to a cantefable, but even then I knew what a cantefable was (thanks to EFDSS Journals), and didn't consider for one moment that this could have been a cantefable.

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 May 19 - 02:47 AM

The modern cantefable

We're going on a bear humt

:D

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: GUEST,Walter Raleigh
Date: 27 May 19 - 04:06 AM

At last something enjoyable

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: GUEST,Walter Raleigh
Date: 27 May 19 - 04:09 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=7&v=3EoI-6lQFIE
Plot
Man has heart broken, tries to problem by pleasing woman, ending mysterious.
Cantefable

Subject: RE: If you do like ballads...
From: GUEST,Some bloke
Date: 27 May 19 - 10:57 AM

Nothing to see here

Ironically, Jim's first contribution to this thread was that rare thing; agreeable.

Mind you, at that point, nobody had dared to question his self styled guru status.

---

That's enough. Try again another time, without the acrimony.
-Joe Offer-