BS: electric cars, when....?

Subject: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Jun 19 - 04:07 PM

my car is very old. i will have to get a newer one before too long.

what i need to know is, how long are we going to be allowed to use petrol cars?
i am seventy now - if i get another petrol car - will i still be able to drive another ten years or sp. always hoping i live that long.

Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: Stanron
Date: 04 Jun 19 - 04:38 PM

If you like petrol engines you could buy a classic. They won't ban them. You may not be allowed to drive in London but some of us would see that as a bonus. Modern petrol engines are very economical, don't pollute too much and and have very low road tax.

I get the impression that electric cars are a bit like Windows operating systems, expensive experiments that don't work all that well. Batteries just don't last long enough or hold enough charge.

I would like a hydrogen cell car, when they come down in price and the fuel infrastructure is there.

Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Jun 19 - 05:01 PM

Banning petrol cars will be very difficult - it is not going to make any government popular with anyone who owns one. So it is more likely they will ban production/sale of new petrol cars and use that to fade them out over an extended period. Resale of existing cars would also be a vote loser, so I doubt if that would happen either.   But there may be more and more congestion charges and similar schemes to discourage you from using a petrol car.

Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Jun 19 - 06:17 PM

i don't feel any great attachment to petrol engines.    i couldn't afford a classic car anyway. i just wondered if they planned to make us use electric cars any time soon.

Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: Stanron
Date: 04 Jun 19 - 06:22 PM

As DMcG suggests Mayoral congestion charges will be the stick. Low tax will be the carrot. I don't think the technology is really there yet for battery powered cars.

Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 04 Jun 19 - 06:24 PM

As far as I can tell the push is for hybrid cars at the moment as they are beginning to realise that pure electric cars have not evolved far enough to meet everyone's needs.

No-one seems to be talking about electric lorries which is a much bigger problem.

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Jun 19 - 01:11 AM

will they make us buy a hybrid any time soon?

That wouldn't be too bad. There are a lot of Prius cars on ebay for less than two grand. One as low as a thousand.

Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jun 19 - 01:48 AM

One of my work colleagues has just got a used Yaris hybrid. He had it at Kwik fit for an MOT and it needed a rear HI light bulb. Kwik fit said they could not change bulbs in it as, due to the complexity, it was a Toyota dealer only job! Dunno if they were spinning him a yarn or not but higher on going costs could be a consideration if you are budget concious.

Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Jun 19 - 01:50 AM

I drive a Prius hybrid. No problems at all with it, beyond the fact the boot/trunk is much smaller than my previous car, which can be an inconvenience.

Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Jun 19 - 02:14 AM

Kwik fit have stitched me up in the past. They offered a free breaks check. Then they came up with an extortionate quote for a new set of pads. I said - could they give me my car back - I knew people who could do the job for less than half that.

They said were not allowed to put my car back together in a unsafe state.

Kwik fit - be afraid, very afraid.

Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 05 Jun 19 - 03:23 AM

Kwikfit are just acting like an OO-gauge version of the car industry as a whole.

There is no such thing as a sustainable car. Decades ago cars passed the point where half a car's resource cost was incurred before you first started it: the ratio will have got much worse since, with greater fuel efficiency and mch more resource- and energy-intensive materials used in manufacture. And batteries are among the worst components from that viewpoint. The plastics and composites used in modern cars are also far more difficult and polluting to recycle than steel.

What electric power for cars does is shift the pollution problem from the air of First World cities to the mining and recycling towns of the Third World, and the future generations everywhere who will have to survive in a burning, poisoned planet.

There is nothing an individual can do to destroy the world that comes anywhere close to operating a private car. It's a uniquely destructive technology, far out beyond any historical precedent.

And the shits who still use them KNOW this.

Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 05 Jun 19 - 03:34 AM

I have a hybrid Yaris. So far no problems with it but I do take it to a Toyota dealer for servicing as I don't believe that the complexity of the hybrid system is understood by your average back street garage.

A couple of things I have noticed.
It is more efficient in summer. One reason is that the battery is more efficient at higher temperatures, another is that the heating system needs the petrol engine to run to warm you up.
The battery is recharged when running down hill but here in the Pennines it is quite common to have it fully charged long before you reach the bottom so you are "missing out" on some free energy.
I reckon to get 40-50 mpg in winter and 60-70 mpg in summer. A trip across North Wales gave me about 71 mpg until I hit the motorway on the way back. The ups and downs were the right frequency to keep the battery charging up to nearly full.
Motorway speeds do bring down the mpg but town driving is excellent as you are using electric a lot then.
One thing they don't mention is that there doesn't seem to be a way to jump start another vehicle from it.
I have to have a 4x4 as well living where I do for the winter snow and ice.
It is more affected by crosswinds on the motorway than my Yeti, which surprised me as it looks more aerodynamic, is quite heavy for its size and otherwise feels quite solid.
I am now quite used to it being an automatic, which it has to be for the hybrid system.

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: Iains
Date: 05 Jun 19 - 03:56 AM

Another perspective:

https://setis.ec.europa.eu/setis-reports/setis-magazine/materials-energy/electric-vehicles-and-critical-metals-jamie-speirs

Presently most rare earths come from China.

Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 05 Jun 19 - 06:10 AM

China has not yet, at least in public, mentioned turning off that particular tap. However if it does, the effect on consumer electronics would be felt first. Huawei may in the end be the only realistic supplier. Pity they don't yet make electric vehicles.

Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Jun 19 - 08:25 AM

You make some interesting points, Jack. I don't disagree with them, but there are further factors. If you buy a used car, it has already incurred all the production costs and acquired the debt (as it were) of its disposal. So while the demand for used cars has some effect on a person who buys new (because they get a contribution to the cost by reselling), buying used vehicles is relatively 'green'.

Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: Iains
Date: 05 Jun 19 - 10:04 AM

Some figures quote up to 4.5kg kg of rare earths in a hybrid car. Also lithium is used for the batteries. Although not a rare earth it is widely scattered at low concentrations. Like everything else the answer is not simple. Electric cars compete with modern electronics and green energy options (particularly wind turbines) for rare earths. China has the largest reserves followed by India and Vietnam that both together equal the reserves of China. A long way behind comes India and Australia. The link below shows how far more elements are involved in modern life compared to ancient windmills

https://theconversation.com/mining-for-metals-in-societys-waste-43766
Realistically battery technology needs to make a quantum leap in efficiency and ease of charging before offering a replacement for internal conmbustion engines. This is apart from the competition for vital resources to produce them. Like oil and gas reserves are finite.
Perhaps the way to go is to ration energy. One trip to the supermarket versus 5 hours of central heating. Some figures quote UK households burn through 4000kw/hrs of electricity each year, the US double that.
Many parts of the third world would be ecstatic to have electric light during the hours of darkness.

Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Jun 19 - 01:04 PM

I never had much luck keeping Scalectrix cars on the track..
Cornering was always a problem...

Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: keberoxu
Date: 05 Jun 19 - 02:38 PM

Here in eastern Massachusetts in the US,
I have seen Teslas on the streets and roads.
They blend in, appearance-wise, with the rest of us in
our petroleum-fuel autos.

There are shopping centers and shopping malls near
the Massachusetts Turnpike ("MassPike" for short)
which have reserved spaces, and chargers,
for electric cars within the big outdoor parking lots.

Elon Musk manages to be in the news a lot here.
But a lot of the stories are negative of late.
He starts endeavors like gangbusters,
but the follow-through is where he flags.

Don't know any more really.

Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: Mr Red
Date: 05 Jun 19 - 03:28 PM

No-one seems to be talking about electric lorries which is a much bigger problem.

Tesla have promised. But when? The beauty of trucks is that the batteries can be in the tractor but the larger ones in the trailer. Because trailers sit for periods being loaded/unloaded, they can be charged then.

Electric cars are the future because the infrastructure is mostly there everywhere and charging stations are easy to add. Hydrogen infrastructure isn't there and is harder to get started. The momentum is with electric and growing because the path is easy. And making hydrogen is power hungry, so no greener in reality. But battery life is an issue, financially and recycling wise.

Anyone thought about compressed air? Renault have a small car.

But nothing is safe in an accident. Petrol, hydrogen, 400V DC, compressed air. Power - clues in the name.

And my problemo is towing a very light caravan (250Kg ish) - small electric cars probably wouldn't be homologated for towing, not that I have investigated it.

To answer Big Al - there is suggestions that 80 is a wise threshold on when to hand in your licence, I know people who have. And you probably have had the letter from the DVLA and had to pay the opticians to verify your eyes.

Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: JHW
Date: 06 Jun 19 - 02:28 PM

Try not to turn over a new Leaf.

Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jun 19 - 02:31 PM

JHW - :-D

Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: Stanron
Date: 06 Jun 19 - 03:07 PM

The hydrogen fuel cell is the future. Unlike battery power the technology is already here. The fuel can be produced by renewable energy at times when the grid doesn't need it. No fossil fuels are needed. All that's needed is the supply infrastructure and lower prices. I live in Manchester. The nearest fuel supplier appears to be in Sheffield. Liverpool has one planned. If I could afford one I'd buy one but I'm afraid it's bangers for me.

Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 06 Jun 19 - 10:28 PM

Glad to read about Robin's Yaris hybrid! Tomorrow I will take delivery of a Prius hybrid. Yaris hybrid not an option in Quebec. I look forward to the fuel savings and less guilt when I drive long distances.

My son is considering full electric but stalling over the cost. I am happy to "afford" the Prius! Hope my lower gas costs help pay for it.

Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 07 Jun 19 - 03:23 AM

We looked at the possibility of getting a pure electric car but it was the restricted range that settled it for us. We have a wind turbine so charging at home could be in effect done for free but it is the time taken to recharge when away from home that is the problem.
Our harpist friend in Lancaster has an electric van but won't go more than 40 miles from home in it because of the restricted range leaving her uncertain about becoming stranded.

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: robomatic
Date: 07 Jun 19 - 08:57 PM

Probably the most economical way is also the simplest. If you want to get by the next ten years with the greatest economy, get a non-hybrid Yaris. The technology is ironclad. You won't have to worry about any battery other than the 100+ year old lead acid starter battery. No electric motor. And the driving technology (radar collision avoidance and backup video camera) is presumably available down the full range of Toyota's fine spectrum of vehicles. And for many years, getting a good mechanic for a non-hybrid vehicle should be easier and less expensive. It's gonna be awhile before a third party mechanic is gonna shove his hands into an engine compartment full of voltage carrying wires!

Hydrogen cell technology is more iffy than battery technology because hydrogen storage is an issue, just as battery storage for electric cars is still developing. But, the better car companies are usually including in the purchase price some manner of recycling the batteries, as Toyota does with the Prius. Plus, you get to recover braking energy with a battery/ supercapacitor system. Plus you can recharge off your home electric system.

I know a gentleman in his 80s who has been happy with his Toyota Prius for years.

And of course, past the next ten years few individuals will be able to afford the insurance to actually drive their own cars. And past that cars won't come with human controls.

Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jun 19 - 03:16 AM

I toyed with the idea of a hybrid when I renewed my car earlier this year. Weighing up all the pros and cons though I realised it was quite an inefficient option for my type of journeys. I stuck to getting a 3 year old diesel and, for the third time, the best for me was a Ford C-Max. This one is a 1.5 and I am currently averaging 70mpg. The participate filter is supposed to be very efficient too. I must say though, if the public transport system was good enough, I would happily do without my own car.

Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: Charmion
Date: 08 Jun 19 - 11:47 AM

With our cold winters and long distances, Canadians are looking at a long wait for conversion to full-electric vehicles — absent a sharp improvement in storage battery technology. I like the idea of a hybrid, but still gag on the price tag.

Truth to tell, I’m still mourning the passing of my diesel-fired 1986 VW Golf ...

Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: robomatic
Date: 08 Jun 19 - 12:11 PM

I had a friend with a Diesel Golf in the 80s. He liked to tell of how when it was still under warranty, the dealership had to replace everything north of the main gasket, and a year later, they had to replace everything south of the main gasket.
Modern diesel engines, and I think this applies to modern diesel automobiles, have to have an extra tank of urea, about 10% the volume of the fuel tank. It gets added to clean up the diesel combustion process and can reduce emissions by over 90%. I don't think it does anything on the particulate side, and those particulates when not captured by some sort of filter can wind up in lungs.

Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: JHW
Date: 08 Jun 19 - 01:12 PM

Railway trains could have plenty of room for batteries, like artic lorries noted above, but they prefer miles of overhead wires to bring them electricity. Maybe its back to Trolley Buses.

Re Range Anxiety I do know a couple with a Leaf who always leave the FC early or I think it goes home without them.

Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jun 19 - 01:53 PM

Does anyone know why there is not a hybrid that runs entirely off electric motors but has a small diesel generator to top up the batteries? Aren't diesels at their most efficient running at a steady pace for long periods?

Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: robomatic
Date: 08 Jun 19 - 10:04 PM

DTG: I've wondered the exact same thing, specifically about the Chevy Vol. Why not furnish an option which allows you to mount a small generator to contantly charge the battery? Engine combined with generator built and sized to functions optimally at a constant speed for generation. And if you know you're going to be using the car purely for short commutes, dismount the little genset and leave it in the garage.

Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: Stanron
Date: 09 Jun 19 - 06:08 AM

Diesel electric has been a standard in UK trains for what seems to be forever. The Top Gear team under Jeremy Clarkson made one and, of course, it wasn't a thing of beauty. It would enable an electric car to travel more than fifty miles, and it would allow a viable heater in winter but it would be a polluter, it would have to have a fuel tank and a radiator, a starter motor, all the stuff that an electric motor doesn't need.

The hydrogen fuel cell is the answer. It's obvious.

Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: Thompson
Date: 09 Jun 19 - 01:06 PM

Big Al, how much do you drive?

A friend in her early 80s is thinking the same way as you; she's considering something like a Leaf +2, I think it's called. Her logic is that the tax, insurance, NCT (=MOT), maintenance and parts, parking and petrol - even for the very little driving she does - on her big old car is around €8,000 a year, and so it's worth her paying over €30,000 for an electrical car which will have no NCT, free fuel and relatively little maintenance (because new).

However, she'll in fact be replacing two diesel cars with one electric, making the cost/benefit even better.

And she figures an electric car will, as she depressingly puts it, "see her out".

The other advantage of getting an electric car when one's becoming old and decrepit is that it's effectively an automatic, so you learn how to work it fairly easily, and have less in the way of complex unconscious decisions to distract you while driving.

If the decision were mine (I've long since given up cars; I can hire a car if I really need one, but mostly ride the bike and on the rare occasions when I really need a lift, kind friends help me out) there's a system called Go Car in Ireland - I suppose it's probably international - which allows for occasional hires that aren't too dear.

But it depends on what you want to drive for. If you're going to late-night gigs far away, yes, you need it. If it's shopping, you can ride the bike for some and get deliveries for other shops. I'd really be inclined to plan out exactly when, where and why you drive every week before making this decision.

Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: robomatic
Date: 09 Jun 19 - 09:09 PM

The only thing against the all electric for someone who wants to be 'seen out' is: it requires some adapting/ learning/ familiarization. Electric cars have a different feel, and are so quiet you might not know they're on. Since they are all automatic, one has to become accustomed to the digital interface which behaves differently than the old style. For instance, in the old days, a few years back the individual switched the headlights on or off. I've been driving a Chevy which automatically turns the lights on when it thinks they're needed. One can control the overall on or off by knowing where the master light switch is, otherwise the Chevy defaults to automatic. Now I've got a Toyota which has the manual 'on', manual 'off' AND automatic setting all on the same control stalk. When one gets their car serviced, the shop may not leave the controls the same way. All through the winter I saw cars driving with no headlights, and this is because the folks inside were depending on the automatic setting which was no longer set to automatic. Hope this makes sense.

Stanron, where do you think hydrogen fuel comes from? Most of the time it comes from natural gas which has been passed through a reformer. That means all that waste material in the non-hydrogen part of the gas still needs to be dealth with. You need to research why the world has not gone to fuel cells if they're as ready as you say. They are not. And if they're ready, they're not clean.

It IS a great time to be an engineer!

Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Jun 19 - 09:32 PM

I don't do many gigs at all these days. I've always only done gigs I can get home to at night. I did a few tours when I was younger -but that life doesn't suit me at all.

No, my main need of a car is for my wife who is disabled with fheumatoid arthritis. I need it for shopping; for little outings for her and hospital and doctor's visits.

Nowadays I do less than ten thousand miles a year.

I buy my cars at the auction block these days, as cheaply as I can. This present car is fourtenn years old - although some of that time - I ran two cars - and a campervan at one point.

I just wondered if I bought a car that was non-hybid, or electric - an ordinary petrol car - if it stands to be made illegal anytime in the next few years.

Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: robomatic
Date: 10 Jun 19 - 12:00 AM

No.

Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: Stanron
Date: 10 Jun 19 - 02:38 AM

Hydrogen can be produced by the electrolysation of water. You know that all that renewable electric power that is produced when nobody wants to use it? It could be used to produce hydrogen which could be used to power personal transport. If there is not a will there wont be a way.

Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: Mr Red
Date: 10 Jun 19 - 05:19 AM

The hydrogen fuel cell is the future.

On that logic, Betamax was a better format. So what happened?

The answer is "content", it produced momentum. Better is not always the way the world works. The world wants it** NOW. And they have it in their own home. The distribution is already in place across the world. And with existing technology/manufacturing PV is available NOW at reasonable cost in areas where distribution petrol &/or electricity is expensive. And Electric cars might serve as a reservoir of electricity for the home &/or grid. Something hydrogen can't do. And hydrogen needs energy to manufacture, which will be electric. And power is power, why add one more translation and, an as yet not available, distribution network, with many caveats on storage/safety.

Hydrogen has a lot going for it, except for a soupçon of reality and sheer momentum of the competition. Electric has issues but it has the NOW factor. Compressed air has a lot of pluses, not the least the tech is understood & there (ish) in every filling station, but no momentum.

If anyone here can predict the future - would you PM me with some sure fire lottery numbers.............


** "it" is not always what the marketeers think - Sony knew what they wanted, Elon Musk sort of knows in his off-beat way.

Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Jun 19 - 06:28 AM

Big flywheel driven by clockwork. It could be wound up using wind or solar power. It could also tilt for corners.

Why not? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: Mr Red
Date: 10 Jun 19 - 09:12 AM

flywheel ....... It could also tilt for corners.

The Swiss tried that, spin topped-up at bus stops. Bus, had 2 contra-rotating flywheels to avoid the tilt in the wrong directions. Broke its back on a hump-backed bridge. AFAIK they only made one in the 50/60s. Probably fatigue from many similar changes of pitch &/or turning at speed.

Torquing of flywheels. Ever driven a boxer motorbike (shaft drive - engine & shaft longitudinal)? Accelerating round a corner causes a torque reaction - either into or against the corner. You do get used to it. Walter Villa campaigned a BMW boxer with the engine upside down, early on. He was good enough to be a 250 & 350 World Champ on a more conventional bike. 60's/70's era.

There was a British bike that had the (transverse) engine rotate the non-conventional way and the flywheel effect either worked against corners at racing speeds - &/or riders never got used to it.

Flywheels can exert a lot of force in the "normal" direction, if they are used to extract energy.

Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: Mr Red
Date: 10 Jun 19 - 09:22 AM

It could be wound up using wind

perpetual motion machine?

Yea right.

Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: JHW
Date: 10 Jun 19 - 04:16 PM

not a car I know but seeing a ride-on mower today thought they don't need much range and most of the time stand waiting for grass to grow so could be chargeing, perhaps less bother than can of petrol

Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: robomatic
Date: 10 Jun 19 - 04:21 PM

I've had a BMW motorcycle. I remember being more comfortable in right hand 'banks' than left hand, but I don't think I can put it down to gyroscopic forces!

There have been and may still be flywheel temporary power systems, the presentation I saw over ten years ago was for an industrial quality unit, quite heavy of course, which could provide power to supply peak electrical demands. It was useful for a few minutes at most to accomplish what is called 'peak shaving'. As a means of mass automotive power, it is a non-starter, pun intended.

Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: Mr Red
Date: 11 Jun 19 - 03:40 AM

I don't think I can put it down to gyroscopic forces

Torque reaction (under acceleration), exactly similar (sic) the recoil of a gun.

Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: robomatic
Date: 11 Jun 19 - 03:53 PM

I'm a little confused, Mr. Red. I was on a BMW with a shaft drive, there was undoubtedly some sort of torque reaction when feeding the engine gas, but in a banking motorcycle turn this is usually minimal, and I can't recall noticing it. When banking spinning wheels, there is a gyroscopic counter force, but I never was able to separate it out. After all, the engine frame and transmission were together far more massive than the wheels, and the reaction there was too subtle for me.

Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 11 Jun 19 - 04:26 PM

I certainly had to adjust the steering when I put my foot down hard in my old Peugeot 205 GTi because of torque reaction.

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: Mr Red
Date: 13 Jun 19 - 03:47 AM

I'm a little confused, Mr. Red.

You habituate to it. Taking nuerologically: your system 1 just does it and doesn't trouble system 2.

If you accelerated hard at the apex you would notice it when the bike was new to you, because your system 1 had not habituated. And any new machine puts your system 2 on alert to reason what is happening.

FWIW the brain operates on two levels which psychologists refer to as System 1, the intuitive brain which runs on experience and System 2 is the much slower logical, reasoning part of the brain that collects and figures new experiences, unless system 1 has already dealt with the problem. And con men know this and prime peoples' system 1 with words and actions.

Torque reaction on front wheel drive cars can be easily felt on loose road surfaces, but I think that is caused by the joint that allows the drive wheels to point left & right (eg Universal Joint). It is the acceleration that does it, not constant speeds. Much like traveling at 100 miles an hour is not felt but accelerating or breaking is noticed.

Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: robomatic
Date: 15 Jun 19 - 08:33 PM

Mr. Red.
I'm just saying that torque reaction is a different phenomenon from gyroscopic forces and dealing with them.
For instance in a 4 wheel car, you can (and do) notice torque reaction when accelerating. But I doubt that anyone other than possibly a formula one racer, is going to notice gyroscopic forces because vehicle weight is far above spinning mass of the wheels and tires. On a motorcycle particularly a racing motorcycle, I expect there will be a noticeable gyroscopic effect. Torque reaction direction will depend on whether the drive is a shaft, such as BMW, Moto-Guzzi and some Hondas, and a chain drive like almost anything else.

I remember seeing a tractor trailer with a heavy load trying to get into motion after a light turned green. As the driver let out the clutch you could see the left front tire rise up by inches, then pound the pavement, up down up down as the drive shaft contributed great torque from the engie to the drive differential.

Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: Mr Red
Date: 16 Jun 19 - 03:53 AM

Gyroscopic forces are quite distinct from torque reaction. On motorcycles you would not normally notice gyroscopic forces, unless racing at modern speeds (over 200 mph at the top level).

FWIW even MotoGP has an electric race series. And there has been an electric TT for 9 years, now lapping at 120 mph but they only do one lap because of battery capacity. Top electric speeds must be near 200 mph now, on (closed) public roads.

50 E-Bikes though some may never make it into production of any volume. The French Postal Service seem to be using E-trikes in Cities like Vichy. Delivery vehicles are an obvious choice - and we did it years ago with Milk Floats. Lundun should lead the way, but Lundun does wot Lundun wants!

Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: keberoxu
Date: 16 Jun 19 - 02:59 PM

I just drove past a used-car-dealer/car-repair garage
which advertises
Teslas for rent …

Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: Mr Red
Date: 17 Jun 19 - 06:14 PM

You can rent soft-tops but I don't advise it!

Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: robomatic
Date: 19 Jun 19 - 12:56 AM

Because if you rent soft tops they get 'wrent'?

Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: BobL
Date: 19 Jun 19 - 03:31 AM

No, if you rend them they get rent.

Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: Mr Red
Date: 22 Jun 19 - 03:05 AM

If you render them it would be a whitewash..........

Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 22 Jun 19 - 11:40 AM

A future for electric vehicles

The future is coming our way whether we want it or not. The manufacturers are going to be converting and acceptance will grow. The real issue is grown the infrastructure so that it is practical to own a BEV

Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: robomatic
Date: 23 Jun 19 - 06:36 PM

Well, what's most likely to happen is what's happened in the past. Those who wish to spend the money form the leading edge of new-tech consumers. I've been on the highways of California and noticed the sleek Teslas gliding through traffic, and I've noticed people noticing them. I've seen exactly one Tesla in Anchorage, and full of old fashioned ideas of how things get done, I followed the car until I had an opportunity of asking the driver who owned the Tesla dealership? Silly OLD me. You buy them off the internet!
And what will really sell them in America is that electric motors have ultimate low end torque and, if made properly will be extremely low wear and maintenance, kinda the motor equivalent of the LED lightbulb (although my bedside LED lamp just died). Whether powered directly by batteries or fuel cells, or hybrid, electric motors will have their own appeal.

In the northern climes, or for anywhere that still gets cold after the planet has warmed up, there will be a slight electric disadvantage in that it is expensive to use electricty as a heat source. Reason being, unless you're using hydroelectric or nuclear sources for your electrical generation, chances are high in America anyway that you've burned something somewhere for that electricity. So using electricty as a heater source, although typically safe and clean, means that you've burned fuel to be turned to electricity to be turned into heat, when you could've simply burned the fuel for heat to begin with. Nevertheless, for a large part of the modern world, the freedom from exhaust pollution in crowded cities and suburbs and the ability to charge one's vehicle overnight when the electric rates might be lower will be liberating.

Also, in theory AND practice, movement through electric motors will be more efficient than through internal combustion and transmission systems. There are even some electric aircraft on the market.

Now, everyone should know that you don't use technology without tradeoffs. One of them will be that the damn things are way quieter than traditional auto engines. It will be easy to not hear them when you're crossing the street reading your phone....So there will have to be car announcers that are always on if the engine is on and the vehicle is moving. You can have the traditional back-up beep that so many trucks and delivery vehicles have, plus a somewhat smoother or purrier sound for forward motion. Maybe even a warning rattle for 'not moving, but not off'. And the approaching car might be able to bluetooth you on your phone you're reading and warn you explicitly to get out of the way. Or it could slow down while your phone prepares to file a suit in preparation for your anticipated injuries.

And like I writted earlier, for certain maintenance or repair the electromechanic will have to go through a grounding procedure before sticking his low-resistance digits where they might be fried off (in the electrical business the technical term for this effect is 'crispy critters'). And batteries under impact may short out and lead to electrocuted people and flash fires. Likewise with fuel cells.

It's a Brave New World all over again.

Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: Mr Red
Date: 24 Jun 19 - 12:31 PM

It will be easy to not hear them .... at low speeds, when danger is at its least. At 30 mph the tyre noise is way up cf normal cars (not pimped megaphonies). And they will market special loudspeakers to make a noise, and then it will be the fashion to make non-car type noises. Goddamit they make trucks that shout "stand clear" just when they are stopped at traffic lights, let alone reversing!

In the northern climes ..... AFAIK, all batteries loose capacity at lower temperatures, through capacity & internal resistance. Then there is the need for a heater. I well remember going for a job at Lucas Industries in the 70s. They had two prototype electric vehicles and they were fast. Then I noticed the filler cap and wondered why they had left it on there. "Paraffin for heating" says the man!

There are battery life issues, but there are end of life solutions like home storage, which is not as wearing on the battery. And in 10 years the efforts of the father of the Lithium Ion battery John_B._Goodenough (and team) will have perfected his new idea. He is still working on it in his 90s. And the race is on elsewhere because of all the battery gadgets around.

If it's Betamax v VHS all over again, the momentum is obvious, apart from sheer cost comparisons.

Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: Charmion
Date: 24 Jun 19 - 12:51 PM

Mr Red, the majority of collisions happen at low speed. Parking lots, for example, are veritable hot-beds of collision risk, with vehicles and pedestrians starting abruptly without warning and wandering around at unpredictable angles, all at low speed. What low-speed collisions are not is, typically, likely to cause a fatal injury -- unless, of course, the slowly moving vehicle knocks a pedestrian down and then proceeds to roll over her. Which happens.

Until the car industry can produce an electric vehicle that can cover typical inter-urban distances in Canada, in winter, in the same time and at about the same cost as a petrol- or diesel-fired vehicle, sales in this country will be paltry.

Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: Mr Red
Date: 25 Jun 19 - 04:56 AM

sales in this country will be paltry.

I refer you to John B Goodenough - Watch this space.

And petrol cars driven in car parks are a menace. Car parks are for stationary cars, pedestrians have priority, but not in the minds of some. Some self centred idiots. Artificial noises are not beyond the bounds of technology, marketing or the legislature.

Don't forget that it was an electric car that held the world speed record when petrol engines were still pre-adolescent.
Petrol engine design is mature now, the exponential improvements thereto are close to the asymptote. Electric cars have been given a new avenue of improvement with a new asymptote.

It all depends what timescale you are envisioning. Give it 10 years, I fully intend being around to see if I am right.

I can see potential for an entrepreneur to have electric hire cars at intervals fully charged. Leave the empty one to charge for the next person. Not a cheap solution but how cheap is boiling water to extract fuel from tar sands, then ferrying petrol around the country? Look to the total cost, and then look to the environment and pollution in the hinterlands of Canada.

FWIW I see the mix of driven and driverless cars far more of concern. And there is momentum building in that genre!

Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: Stanron
Date: 25 Jun 19 - 05:40 AM

Mr Red wrote: I can see potential for an entrepreneur to have electric hire cars at intervals fully charged. Leave the empty one to charge for the next person.

It wouldn't have to be whole cars. If you had easily accessible and standardised battery packs you could just exchange drained batteries for charged ones.

Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 25 Jun 19 - 09:43 AM

Pedestrians have priority on pedestrian crossings and pavements. Not sure how being in a car park changes that.

Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: robomatic
Date: 25 Jun 19 - 06:49 PM

Regarding driving through car parks. Well, I show up daily at a coffee establishment in front of a mini-mall. There is 90 degree parking on both sides of the access 'street' which bears no name yet is treated as a street because it is open at each end. 90% of the folks there ae slow and careful, but those who treat it like a street are not on a schedule and there are near misses all the time.

Come to think of it, there are parking areas where people drive through at street speeds as well.

So yes, pedestrians have priority. But at their peril!

And I just remembered that horror story about the kid in a pickup truck who drove into about ten motorcycles, and killed seven. Being right doesn't lead to staying alive.

Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Jun 19 - 11:12 AM

Pedestrians have priority on pedestrian crossings and pavements. Not sure how being in a car park changes that.
A little disambiguation needed:

Pavement:
NOUN
BRITISH
a raised paved or asphalted path for pedestrians at the side of a road.North American term sidewalk.
"he fell and hit his head on the pavement" · [More]
synonyms:
footpath · paved path · pedestrian way · walkway · footway · sidewalk
any paved area or surface.
"the pavements and columns of these ancient ruins provided the material for more recent structures"
NORTH AMERICAN
the hard surface of a road or street.
synonyms:
highway · thoroughfare · roadway · road surface · pavement

Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: Mr Red
Date: 27 Jun 19 - 02:20 AM

They ain't pavements or footpaths any more. They is Footways

In the UK it is appearing on temporary signage and on permanent signs.

Now who and when did they decide that? And bother to discuss the change first?

So, is it paved/tarmaced footway and
dirt/legally protected footpath?

Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jun 19 - 06:47 AM

Dunno but I am always tempted to wander round the countryside changing finger posts to direct people to Public Footbaths

:D

Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: robomatic
Date: 27 Jun 19 - 08:51 PM

I once received a parking ticket for having my motorcycle parked on the sidewalk.
Made the call.
"Uh, there's no sidewalk in front of the place. Just street."
"The area where the PAVEMENT for the sidewalk would be IS the sidewalk."

Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 30 Jun 19 - 07:13 AM

New electric vehicles will have to feature a noise-emitting device, under an EU rule coming into force on Monday - thank goodness for that, otherwise they are bloody dangerous.

Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: robomatic
Date: 02 Jul 19 - 10:31 PM

Electric cars will save lives
.

Except mine. I'm going to make sure that my electric car will know my exact bum size, and the bum parametric measurements of all approved drivers, so that anyone who steals my electric car will be electrocuted*.





*Through the bum.

Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: robomatic
Date: 03 Jul 19 - 02:08 AM

I think different makes of electric cars should have different 'makes' of sound:

Volkswagen: Mozart
Mercedes: Beethoven
Toyota: Semisen
Nissan: Shokuhachi
Hyundai: Hip-Hop
Kia:    Mynah Bird
Chevy:   Country Western
Ford:    Spirituals
Jaguar: Blondie
Mini-Cooper: Kraftwerk
Saab:    Bjork
Renault: Charles Aznavour
Peugeot: Maurice Chevalier
Chrysler: Lady GAGA

Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: Mr Red
Date: 03 Jul 19 - 12:23 PM

BMW: Oasis with attitude
Alfa Romeo: Jane Berkin & Serge Gainsberg - Je T'ame ...Moi non Plus , ooer missus
            or Ravel's Bolero - ooer, ooer missus.
Dace: Gypsy Jazz
Lada: Volga Boat Song
Citroen: Johnny Haliday
Seat: Julio Iglesias
Skoda: Škoda lásky (=Roll Out the Barrel)

FWIW - I am hearing tell of a move to make UK electric cars make petrol engine noises. (other internal combustion engines are available)

And have we seen the claims of Lightyear Solar One? A car clad in PV with a range of 450 miles for a mere $140,000. Advance orders being taken.

Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jul 19 - 12:50 PM

Nissan should be "Don't let Datsun catch you crying..."

Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 23 Jul 19 - 12:34 PM

The cost of your electric car in places you've never heard of, for people and wildlife you don't give a shit about:

http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20150402-the-worst-place-on-earth

Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: robomatic
Date: 23 Jul 19 - 04:41 PM

Cheer up Jack, I didn't read that any of them were Palestinian.

Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: Mr Red
Date: 24 Jul 19 - 03:12 AM

I have since read in the New Scientist (June 9th) that reported that the electric car noise law will become mandatory on all new cars sold in the EU in 2020 (or was it 2021?).

Because of the multifarious regulations re cars in many different countries, most cars have all the various requirements where they don't conflict. So regardless of the Brexshit mess, they will probably have the noises in the UK. I do seriously expect there to be custom retro-fit kits and personalised noises. And bloody volume!

Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Jul 19 - 09:43 AM

What about the disposal of the lithium batteries

Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Jul 19 - 09:47 AM

it is the cobalt in lithium batteries that is dangerous, apparantly

Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: robomatic
Date: 25 Jul 19 - 11:52 PM

well, i guess the depressives can have the lithium and the painters can use the cobalt (blue)

Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: Mr Red
Date: 26 Jul 19 - 03:03 PM

and depressed painters can be charged?

Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Aug 19 - 03:03 AM

THE LONG TERM FUTURE MIGHT POSSIBLY BE HYDROGEN FUEL POWERED CARS

Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Aug 19 - 03:05 AM

A hydrogen vehicle is a vehicle that uses hydrogen fuel for motive power. Hydrogen vehicles include hydrogen-fueled space rockets, as well as automobiles and other transportation vehicles. The power plants of such vehicles convert the chemical energy of hydrogen to mechanical energy either by burning hydrogen in an internal combustion engine, or, more commonly, by reacting hydrogen with oxygen in a fuel cell to run electric motors. Widespread use of hydrogen for fueling transportation is a key element of a proposed hydrogen economy.[2]

As of 2016, there are three models of hydrogen cars publicly available in select markets: the Toyota Mirai, the Hyundai Nexo, and the Honda Clarity. Several other companies are working to develop hydrogen cars. As of 2014, 95% of hydrogen is made from natural gas. It can be produced by thermochemical or pyrolytic means using renewable feedstocks, but that is an expensive process.[3] Renewable electricity can however be used to power the conversion of water into hydrogen: Integrated wind-to-hydrogen (power-to-gas) plants, using electrolysis of water, are exploring technologies to deliver costs low enough, and quantities great enough, to compete with hydrogen production using natural gas.[4] The drawbacks of hydrogen use are high carbon emissions intensity when produced from natural gas, capital cost burden, low energy content per unit volume at ambient conditions, production and compression of hydrogen, and the investment required in filling stations to dispense hydrogen

Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Aug 19 - 05:01 AM

As for the earlier suggestion of vehicle/make specific sounds, surely:


BMW: Bob Marley (and the) Wailers