Glastonbury

Subject: RE: Glastonbury
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Jul 19 - 02:43 PM

Walky - no.. pick your case back up again...

It's all very well telling us your life story now,
but the comments you made here in isolation beforehand
sounded decidedly dodgy,
like real hardcore xenophobe nationalist rhetoric...

You need to communicate with us far more effectively than you have been,
if you believe you are not what you have been making yourself appear to be...!!!
You can't have your cake and eat it...

No matter how nice Mr Kipling might be,
and remember even he makes french fancies and battenberg has cross cultural origins...

Subject: RE: Glastonbury
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 03 Jul 19 - 04:14 PM

English cuisine:

The full English; Sunday/any-day roast; fish and chips; bangers and mash; stottie stuffed with chips; scouse; panhaggerty; Lancashire hot-pot or, in my case, vegetable potages - "One-Pot Cooking"

Subject: RE: Glastonbury
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 03 Jul 19 - 04:33 PM

Fish and chips - introduced to the UK by Jewish immigrants from Spain and Portugal. Scouse or Lobscouse - from North Germany and the Baltic region. Roast meats are universal and go back to the origin of fire. Roast beef and horseradish sauce is great, horseradish of course originates in south eastern Europe.

Your favourite food seems to be very cholesterol rich. Apart from one pot dishes which can me almost anything. I like the ones in the Levi Roots book, plenty of Caribbean flavours.

Subject: RE: Glastonbury
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 03 Jul 19 - 05:17 PM

Are you from Lancashire, WaV? If not, what right have you got to be hot-potting?

Subject: RE: Glastonbury
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 03 Jul 19 - 05:28 PM

I was born (the day we won the FIFA World Cup) in Saint Mary's Hospital, Manchester, Jim.

I was away from this part of the world for a long time but feel I know it quite well and wrote a song called "Lancashire Sung Simply"

Subject: RE: Glastonbury
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jul 19 - 02:49 AM

Sorry Walkaboutverse but we are not talking about whether you support other cultures or not. You made two distinct accusations

1. That the status quo on here (Mudcat presumably)is that English culture should be lost and
2. That the English prefer anyone elses culture to their own.

I refute both those claims and have asked you to give examples of either. To date you have failed to do so and until you do, your claims are unsubstantiated.

As to there are MANY places in Spain where one can have such an experience but how many in England where one can have a nice roast, and a gin and tonic whilst watching Morris or clog dancing? - How many is Spain? How many are put on just for tourists? (Yes I have seen such). I can take you to any number of pubs to watch Morris dancing (possibly Moorish in origin) and have a Gin (developed from the Dutch Jenever) and tonic (from India). Many will also do Sunday roasts alongside many of the other foods that are now part of English culture. I have not read many of your poems as they are not really my thing but I can tell you need to clarify your arguments and be prepared to back them up if challenged.

Subject: RE: Glastonbury
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 04 Jul 19 - 01:07 PM

Firstly, I got this from the Glastonbury team after using the link given by PFR, above: Thanks for your feedback, which we will pass on to our bookers.

By "here" I mean't English culture in England being lost.

I gave an example already re office dos, above; and shall add that our weekend cookery programmes present much more foreign than local dishes - Rick Stein is a lot better than most saying something like, when he visits other lands, why can't we have home from home food on our high streets.

And with the last point you have jogged my memory, thanks, Dave - God's speed to you all, Morris and sword dancers do turn up at pubs but we don't have the regular shows I referred to in Spain of which, believe you me, there are many in Barcelona alone - and so what if they aim at tourists? Why should visitors to our nation be looking for a needle in a haystack when it comes to our traditions?

(PS: sods law - the one time I didn't copy my words just in case the Submission fails, it did and I had to retype this...being full of the milk of human kindness as I am.)

Subject: RE: Glastonbury
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 04 Jul 19 - 01:39 PM

Seriously is it really detrimental to anyone that we are able to enjoy cuisine from across the globe? The very idea is absurd and just because someone enjoys oriental food etc it doesn't mean they don't like a good carvery too. No-one is forcing you to eat foreign and you have no influence over what other folks eat. Quite rightly!!! And what is English anyway?? Surely that changes and adaptswith time. Balti cooking is an English cuisine now associated with the Midlands. Likewise Grime music is just one modern English genre.

Subject: RE: Glastonbury
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 04 Jul 19 - 01:42 PM

And that's the very problem - at the moment, here, most would agree with Allan but not so, of course, just a few decades ago.

God knows, things do NOT always change for the better.

Subject: RE: Glastonbury
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jul 19 - 01:56 PM

That "Foreign" food, as you call it, is as English as Morris dancing, Gin and Tonic! I still refute your claims that most people believe that English culture should be lost and that the English prefer anyone elses culture to their own. Nothing you have said proved those claims.

Subject: RE: Glastonbury
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jul 19 - 01:59 PM

Oh, a question before I forget again. Are you at all involved in Morris dance or traditional plays?

Subject: RE: Glastonbury
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Jul 19 - 02:01 PM

It's too hot today, my bathroom is infested with flying ants..
and I've no more patience for willfully unreasonable blinkered thinkers...

.. just saying...

Walky - You have painted yourself into a corner here.
Your written statements don't correspond too well with the progressive persona
you want us to see you as...???

YOU are out of synch with a modern diverse UK..
however you try to rationalise it to yourself, and us...

Subject: RE: Glastonbury
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 04 Jul 19 - 02:04 PM

I didn't say this, Dave "most people believe that English culture should be lost"... but it is being lost.

And no - but I'm glad you are involved, Dave. I have participated at festivals and clubs with folk tunes and songs, though, and I do have a club foot that swells up and pangs more these days.

Subject: RE: Glastonbury
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jul 19 - 03:39 PM

I no longer dance as I am not up to it. I play for a local side and perform in 2 traditional plays.

You say you did not say "most people believe that English culture should be lost" but you did say

But where I differ from the status quo here is in a strong belief that our own good English culture should remain a part of our multicultural United Nations

If by status quo you mean most people and you differ from most people because you believe English culture should remain then the only conclusion I can draw is that you think that most people do not believe that English culture should remain. It is that I first pulled you up on that. You went on to say that most English people "prefer every other culture to our own". I do not believe either statement is true and you have said nothing to convince anyone otherwise.

I am happy to accept this is not what you meant if you tell us what you really meant to say.

Subject: RE: Glastonbury
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 04 Jul 19 - 04:10 PM

Too many here nowadays do, sadly, Dave:

They do prefer a foreign restaurant, such as going out "for an Indian."

They do spend their money and time on American pop, rock, rap, and country rather than their own good English music.

The do fanatically support a world eleven, call it a premier league, then scratch their heads as to why we lose to smaller nationalistic nations like Croatia and Iceland. Many fans now actively prefer their club to have foreign players to locals - as long as they win.

They do prefer line dancing to clog and Morris (although, I accept the former is not as popular here as about a decade ago, thankfully).

It is not that our culture is not as enjoyable or interesting, it is just that people have been led to believe that.

The huge crowds as Glastonbury could just as well be enjoying singing the chorus of one of our fine folk songs.

Subject: RE: Glastonbury
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 04 Jul 19 - 04:22 PM

"And that is the very problem" the fact that modern English culture includes the taste of food created by folks from an ethnic minority background is not a problem. It simply adds to and enriches the fabric of the culture. And sorry I know in my youth many older folk used to baulk at the idea of eating 'foreign muck' but that was due to them not being introduced to it.

Subject: RE: Glastonbury
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 04 Jul 19 - 04:25 PM

And sorry but the suggestion that just a few decades ago English folk didn't listen to foreign music is silly. Think Beethoven, Mozart, louis Armstrong, Glen Miller, etc etc etc

Subject: RE: Glastonbury
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 04 Jul 19 - 04:31 PM

...or much more pride in their own culture and cuisine, Allan.

Traditions exist where locals are impressed by how their own forebears did things.

And, as I have said but feel the need to repeat, I love trying foreign foods IN FOREIGN LANDS, as part of the enjoyment of being among other people and their culture for a while/a break.

That IS the best way forward for humanity - appreciating other cultures including your own, and visiting (not emigrating or conquering) other lands, within the United Nations, as a respectful tourist.

Subject: RE: Glastonbury
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jul 19 - 04:35 PM

Folk music and tradition is, always has been and always will be a minority interest Walkaboutverse. If you think that even to top names in folk can compete with Liam Gallagher, The Cure or Kylie, you are fooling no one but yourself. There are plenty of folk festivals, why would you want to turn Glastonbury into another one?

Subject: RE: Glastonbury
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 04 Jul 19 - 04:42 PM

But if given a test in musicianship many folkies may well beat "Liam Gallagher, The Cure or Kylie," Dave - it's what I just said: our culture (and its performers) are not inferior, it is just that people have been led to believe that.

The ocean is made of many drops, and we CAN win this "war".

Subject: RE: Glastonbury
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jul 19 - 04:58 PM

No, folk performers are not inferior. Nor are the mainstream performers. They are just different. For the record, there is some folk music at Glastonbury. There is some Pop at Whitby. Long may that situation last.

It's not a war. It's many different sets of tastes living in harmony and not doing each other any harm. The only antagonism I am seeing is from you I'm afraid:-(

Subject: RE: Glastonbury
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jul 19 - 05:01 PM

BTW. If you are in Manchester, what on earth are you doing posting on here? You should be out listening to "bells for peace" to mark the start of the international festival!

Subject: RE: Glastonbury
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Jul 19 - 05:09 PM

"CAN win this "war"."

Walky - now you have PROVEN to me you are the kind of nationalist you pretend not to be...

You have dropped into place on my identification chart..
YOU are talking the kind of modified nationalism that goes along these lines..

"I'm not a racist, I love the diversity of races and other cultures..
As long as they stay in their own countries and don't come here..."...

Gotcha...!!!

Subject: RE: Glastonbury
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 04 Jul 19 - 05:12 PM

Anyone remember that thread where, eventually, there was a consensus of sorts that England's national musical instrument was the bell?

Just did a quick search to no avail but here is my list (adapted after that thread) of English Dances & Instruments

Subject: RE: Glastonbury
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 04 Jul 19 - 05:21 PM

PFR - yes, I support land rights and don't like economic/CAPITALIST immigration nor conquest and imperialism; I do support genuine asylum seekers being helped to their NEAREST (in terms of culture as well as distance) safe nation.

Subject: RE: Glastonbury
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Jul 19 - 05:56 PM

Walky - you can you can dress it up in theory as much as you like,
but in effect you are no different to the kind of nationalists
you claim you are not...

Some of us are prepared to give you benefit of the doubt,
but you are making yourself look at the very least contradictory and confused...

I believe you are not a white supremacist, their sort are a nasty minority.
But your liking for other races and cultures,
has not stopped you falling in a trap of supporting the most reactionary kind of purist nationalism.
your words also inadvertently agree with, support, and propagate such obvious crude prejudices...

Seriously think about what you are writing here in public...

Subject: RE: Glastonbury
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 04 Jul 19 - 06:17 PM

I AM a nationalist, PFR - so was Gandhi, e.g.

Subject: RE: Glastonbury
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Jul 19 - 06:41 PM

Then stop wasting our time and patience with your xenophobic nonsense...

Subject: RE: Glastonbury
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Jul 19 - 06:42 PM

btw.. that admission was hardly a big unexpected dramatic reveal deserving of the Eastender's
dramatic drum roll...

For what it's worth, I was treading carefully and being more tolerant in case you have 'problems'...???

Subject: RE: Glastonbury
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Jul 19 - 07:35 PM

He writes like a 93-year-old little Englander. Then I find out that he was born on the day I was watching England winning the World Cup on a black and white telly that the Victor Value shop manager out of the goodness of his heart had hired.

Subject: RE: Glastonbury
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jul 19 - 02:23 AM

Englands national instrument the only one as I understand it that was invented in England is the English concertina.Dave te gnome, folk music is not always a minority interest in Ire land for example it is mainstream, your perspective applies to England, Ironic because WAV is the one who is often accused of being a little englander. Dave i am sure you are not a little englander ,but you made a comment based on england and its folk music as if it was a world wide fact

Subject: RE: Glastonbury
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 05 Jul 19 - 02:32 AM

Goodness, so now we will be saying that people in foreign countries shouldn't be putting on performances of Shakespeare, if foreigners want to see Shakespeare they have to come to England (nor even Britain) to see it.

The bit about food is utterly bonkers. Influences from all around the world have greatly enhanced British cusine. If we were reduced to eating the kind of chloresterol enhanced meals that Walkabouts lists, life would be very dull. Also short as we would be dying of heart attacks in our 40s.

As for comparing yourself with Gandhi, thats your very own Dan Quayle moment.

Subject: RE: Glastonbury
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jul 19 - 02:55 AM

your perspective applies to England

Of course it does Dick. We are talking about Glastonbury. Which as far as I am aware is in England. As it happens, I am half Polish but that does not stop me from enjoying English culture and music. As to Ireland, I cannot say as I do not know but I just looked at the current Irish top 10 and I don't recognise any traditional folk songs there.

Subject: RE: Glastonbury
From: Vincent Jones
Date: 05 Jul 19 - 03:23 AM

>> Shakespeare wrote a lot about Italy, and almost certainly spent time there.

He almost certainly didn't, according to the Shakespeare scholars I know (one of whom I am married to). This supposed intimacy with Italy is used by those people who believe that a bankrupt glover's son who went to grammar school would be incapable of writing the plays, and that someone from a posher background (often one similar to the people making this accusation) was the playwright.

Subject: RE: Glastonbury
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 05 Jul 19 - 04:59 AM

It seems that the one performer this year who has caught the English public imagination more than all the others put together is Stormzy.

So let's hear it for his kind of English music, if it has the intended effect.

Subject: RE: Glastonbury
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jul 19 - 10:14 AM

Funnily enough, Jack, I have often thought that Rap can be a type of Folk. Not the "Gangsta" stuff or the obscene or misogynistic stuff but there is a good section that tells real stories of ordinary folk living often hard lives. Not heard Stormzy so I dunno what section he falls in. Must have a listen some time.

Subject: RE: Glastonbury
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Jul 19 - 10:42 AM

folk, blues, punk, rap, etc.. have always served the same purpose
for downtrodden disaffected sub cultures & communities..
It's only the old blinkered [predominately white middle class...???] folk snobs
who refuse to accept reality...

Subject: RE: Glastonbury
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 05 Jul 19 - 02:20 PM

A reminder that folk music has long being linked to nationalism - in the early part of last century, when classical musicians were keen to give a nod to nationalism, they often turned to folk music.

Positive nationalism is definitely good for humanity.

And I'm not deluding myself re Gandhi - I am well aware that, in terms of popularity and umph, I am very different.

When he repatriated from African to Asia and began asking Europeans to repatriate to Europe (using non-violent non-cooperation and education), the majority of his people loved him for it and pushed him into leadership.

Subject: RE: Glastonbury
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Jul 19 - 03:15 PM

Having established your position on the political spectrum,
now to consider where you belong on any other spectrums...???

Are you for real..
or a lefty comedian's caricature
of the stereotypical xenphobic nationalist fanatic...???

Are we being secretly recorded for BBC3 comedy special...!!!???

Subject: RE: Glastonbury
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 05 Jul 19 - 03:20 PM

I'd say I'm a proper "lefty" PFR - I don't like capitalism AND I don't like economic/CAPITALIST immigration.

My poem on "Immigration's Left and Right"

Subject: RE: Glastonbury
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jul 19 - 04:50 PM

Please don't drag the memory of Gandhi into this sordid, petty little feud.

Subject: RE: Glastonbury
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Jul 19 - 05:03 PM

I don't remember much about him at all..
I only ever saw the first Lord of the Rings movie,
and that was nearly 20 years ago...

Subject: RE: Glastonbury
From: GUEST,Cj
Date: 06 Jul 19 - 02:08 PM

When will people realise that the past is the past? The world has moved on. Communication and travel have moved on. It is no longer the war of the roses, or England Vs Napoleon, or North vs South. These people searching for their future in a rose tinted past are scared children. Grow up!

Subject: RE: Glastonbury
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 06 Jul 19 - 02:20 PM

I find English copying American culture childish, CJ.

And it is not just music, of course: "You know what? I'm like so Americanised I copy everything they do; cause they like so get it - yeeha!"

Subject: RE: Glastonbury
From: GUEST,Cj
Date: 06 Jul 19 - 03:15 PM

It's not a copy, it's an exchange. For they "copy" as much from us as we them. And why not? We're more similar than different. Hiding in caves is for cavemen.

Subject: RE: Glastonbury
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Jul 19 - 03:25 PM

Cj - give up now, there's no point trying to explain
the reciprocal evolutionary nature of cultural exchange to him..

He's unashamedly an Edwardian gentleman lost adrift in the future...

Maybe, one day he'll manage to fix his time machine for the return trip back home...

Until then he remains here as a curiosity - a living museum exhibit...


Now to find an alive T.Rex...

Subject: RE: Glastonbury
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jul 19 - 03:33 PM

I've just realised. Walkaboutverse has admitted to being a nationalist and a socialist. I'm sure there is a phrase for that but I can't quite put my finger on it :-)

PFR. T-Rex live in in their music!

Subject: RE: Glastonbury
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Jul 19 - 03:43 PM

Yes I know..
.. and I'm one of those besotted daft sods
who bought the recent latest bottom of the barrel scraping box set of Marc Bolan's home demos...

Subject: RE: Glastonbury
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 06 Jul 19 - 03:52 PM

Not quite, Dave - I'd say positive nationalist and a "regulationist"; my poem, from WalkaboutsVerse, "Global Regulationism"

Subject: RE: Glastonbury
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Jul 19 - 03:58 PM

... and to link all this random bollox together in as contived a way as possible...

"6 surprising facts about the first-ever Glastonbury''

[last minute replacement headline acts..]

..goes all the way back to very first festival when The Kinks
(as well as Wayne Fontana, the other act listed on the flyer) were no-shows.
They were replaced by Marc Bolan’s Tyrannosaurus Rex."...