Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?

Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Mossback
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 06:15 PM

And made excuses along the lines of it's what we did, it was of its time

What he actually said was: "It was an era of real indiscretion and mistakes by categorically male performers."

Which is an explanation, not an excuse. Its also a fact.

He continued: "I was one of them. I got nailed. I was wrong. I'm sorry for it."

He has also said:

"“I fully support the current movements demanding equal rights for all and refusing to allow continued abuse and injury — most particularly of a sexual nature, of which I am, with great sorrow, guilty,” he said. “I do not seek to minimize or excuse what I have done and I cannot adequately express my apologies and sorrow for the pain and injury I have caused in this regard.

However, beyond any of my words and feelings expressed, I will walk the walk, do all I can to make amends, and dedicate myself to helping bring more justice and peace to the world.”

Yup, there's a real dangerous desperado for sure.

Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 06:58 PM

Well, Bill, he "also said" that after he got caught. I have no issue with them wot apologise after they've been nicked. But you won't catch many of them apologising BEFORE they've been caught.

I'm sure he's a luvly feller. Or am I that sure...well, not him. No prob. But I won't be booking him, buying his albums nor going to his gigs. It's a ountry.

Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 07:31 PM

As mentioned above, there is a significant difference between forgiving and forgetting. I was molested [though my own ignorance] at Boy Scout camp when I was 11 years old. Should I forget? NO. I taught my son how to respond in the same circumstances so it would not happen him.

Did I forgive the asshole who molested me? Yes, but it took a long time. I have better things to do with my life than to let anger and the memory of his abuse control my life. He has to live with himself.

I wonder where the woman and her sister who were involved in the incident are now, both emotionally and cognitively. Have they moved on or are they still in the anger/blaming circle? Their circumstances should really be the driver of this discussion.

Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 08:56 PM

Heartily agreed. And apologies for the truncation of my last post.

Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Megan L
Date: 08 Jul 19 - 02:12 AM

I wonder how men of the men in here have ever made a joke that denigrates women or slapped a woman's bum or wolf whistled how many of you remember everything you did when you were stoned or drunk?

Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jul 19 - 03:09 AM

"It was an era of real indiscretion and mistakes"
No it wasn't - that was the way it was and it was very deliberate
Women were allotted their place in society from birth and groomed to be home-makers and baby producers - our laws were created to consolidate this and the taught religions established this as a social norm
The vows women took in church included that they "loved, honoured and "OBEYED" their spouses
It was written into the British statute that it was legal for a husband to rape his wife in 1736 and that law was not removed until 1991
Women were officially inferior to men and wives were the property of their husbands
That situation only began to change with the Suffrage movement, which unfortunately operated mainly on behalf of the better-off - unfortunately, the Suffragettes sold out their cause by colluding to send a generation of young men to their deaths in W.W.1

Women have fought imprisonment and open contempt to change that situation and, to a degree, have been successful, but for many, they still have a long way to go
Equality of Pay and working conditions still remains a remote deram for most women
No accident - no mistake - very deliberate

For some, women remain very second-class citizens

Since when has showing your willie to kids been "a joke", I wonder
I didn't think it funny when it happened to me as a child - nor did my wife when it happened to her
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: gillymor
Date: 08 Jul 19 - 09:34 AM

Megan, you seem to have bought into the "everyone was doing it" argument. I was 17 in 1970 and certainly indulged in some of the "indiscreet" behavior that was prevalent among my peers but I never, even in an altered state, attempted to force myself on anyone, juvenile or adult and consequently never wound up in prison on a sexual assault charge.

Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Jul 19 - 09:51 AM

Jim - my nan thought it hilarious when she was flashed...

That was nothing compared to being bombed by the Luftwaffe and evacuated to the wild west of England...

Your polemical history lesson is a good read,
but you are tending to over generalise in order to support your own argument...

I suspect you were never in a rock band back in the 60s and 70s...

Young women we knew were far stronger and independent than you give them credit..
Even if you suggest they were on the pill and being promiscuous
as a result of being manipulated by the dominant patriarchal hegemony..
They seemed to be having a damn good time enjoying it on their own terms...

BUT we do agree about the forgotten women, like my mum - working class, under educated,
and stuck in lousy long hours badly payed jobs;
cleaning, washing, and wiping arses in old folks retirement death camps...
They were the mass underclass who the middle class aspirational professional feminists academics and journalists
didn't seem to give give a toss about.
They were more concerned with the glamorous lifestyle
of women aping successful tory men in industry and the media, and academia..

In the late 70s and early 80s,
most of the younger feminists I knew,
who were students, musicians, artists and actresses,
they were cool and inspirational.
They shaped my personality and beliefs as I developed into manhood.
But the older middle aged feminists most prominent in the media
tended to be mostly obsessed with their own career self advancement..

Sod my mum, as far as their selfish priorities seemed to be...

Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 08 Jul 19 - 09:52 AM

Bob Dylan observed in the 1960s that The Times They Are A-Changin' (first song in this 1/2 hour performance). We are discussing one of the changes that took a lot longer than it should have.

What is changing regarding women and how men treat them? #MeToo is outing men who took advantage of their positions of power over women to claim sexual advantage, whether women wanted it or not. It isn't tarring every sexual encounter—it is aimed at men who acted with impunity, not those who were already caught and punished. (#MeToo is also outing a few powerful women who preyed on young men. It's an equal opportunity movement.)

This is why the torches and pitchforks are uncalled for at this time. Festivals can choose to hire or not, as they wish, depending on the information they have, but they are refusing to hire a reformed character, not an unindicted molester.

Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 08 Jul 19 - 10:57 AM

Edna O'Brien was born in 1930 at Tuamgraney, County Clare, Ireland, a place she would later describe as "fervid" and "enclosed". From 1941 to 1946 she was educated by the Sisters of Mercy – a circumstance that contributed to a "suffocating" childhood". "I rebelled against the coercive and stifling religion into which I was born and bred. It was very frightening and all pervasive. I'm glad it has gone."

Here she observes how women were treated as she grew up;
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0006pjj/imagine-2019-4-edna-obrien-fearful-and-fearless
imagine...2019: 4. Edna O'Brien: Fearful... and Fearless
Contains some strong language and some upsetting scenes.
Duration 65 mins; First shown 10:30pm 7 July 2019; Available for 29 days

Ireland has made great social advances since then.

Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Mossback
Date: 08 Jul 19 - 11:20 AM

Thank you, Stilly. Wish I'd been able to sum it up as succinctly as you've done.

Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Jeri
Date: 08 Jul 19 - 11:24 AM

I think it's true every potential battle defaults to one of several usual topics. Catholic priests and abuse. Racism. Folk/not folk. Ewan MacColl.

Was Ewan MacColl ever involved in a sex scandal? Was he interested in pubescent girls, or was he possibly gay. Was he ever a priest?

What other general flame war categories did I miss? (I noticed bobad made a ham-handed (anti-kosher humor not intended) attempt to troll regarding the"J" word, but that didn't last.)

If Joe wants to BS this, or close it, I agree. It stopped being about any specific subject sometime around 04 Jul 19, 01:23 PM.

Yeesh. I used to love Mudcat because of the smart people who posted here...

Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: meself
Date: 08 Jul 19 - 12:01 PM

Anyone who says attitudes weren't different in the '70s wasn't paying attention or has forgotten. That doesn't necessarily excuse any given misdeed, but, as the man says, it may help explain it.

Example. Age 20 or so, I was sitting in the kitchen of a communal home with a small mixed group of slightly-older counter-culture-ish friends. One of the young women was telling us that a friend of hers, who was a high-school teacher, had spent the weekend in bed smoking dope with a couple of his female students. While no one expressed out-and-out approval, no one expressed disapproval - it was clearly regarded as 'edgy' behaviour, a case of getting one up on 'the man' by transgressing 'artificial' social taboos. There was a bit of chuckling and giggling.

There was a lot of that kind of thinking going on at that time. Again, not saying what it does or does not excuse; just giving a little context.

Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: bobad
Date: 08 Jul 19 - 12:02 PM

(I noticed bobad made a ham-handed (anti-kosher humor not intended) attempt to troll regarding the"J" word, but that didn't last.)

I guess you missed the post disparaging me that I was reacting to. Somehow I'm not surprised.

Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Jul 19 - 12:14 PM

Bob - no one else cares about your boring petty little feuds..

you'd be a right pain in the arse on a night out with a bunch of friends and acquaintances...

Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Megan L
Date: 08 Jul 19 - 12:48 PM

Now I remember why I left the cat before I was tired of the pervasive atmosphere of bullying, people jumping on bandwagons where they are so busy listening to their own little band they ignore or attack anyone of moderate views.

Gillymor in the 70's I was fighting! Not against men but women who were trying to strip me of my freewill . I was brought up to think for myself, make my own decisions and treat each person as an individual not as a trumpet or a flag for me to fall in behind.

Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jul 19 - 12:50 PM

You missed loads, Jeri. You need to think more British :-)

Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: bobad
Date: 08 Jul 19 - 12:50 PM

Funny that you come after me but ignore the ones who initiate the antagonism - I wonder why that is.

Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: bobad
Date: 08 Jul 19 - 12:51 PM

Previous post directed to Punkie.

Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Jul 19 - 12:58 PM

bob - I don't come after you.. you present yourself up for having the piss taken..

btw.. jim, steve, bwm, dtg, dick, etc..

chaps you might insist are on the same side as me..

They can all attest that i'm not slow in criticising them if I feel there's good valid reason..

So quit with the whiny me me me persecution complex...

Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: gillymor
Date: 08 Jul 19 - 01:06 PM

Megan, It was not my intention to bully anyone in my last post but I will rephrase it-

"Megan, regarding your last post, I was 17 in 1970 and certainly indulged in some of the "indiscreet" behavior that was prevalent among my peers but I never, even in an altered state, attempted to force myself on anyone, juvenile or adult and consequently never wound up in prison on a sexual assault charge."

Is that less objectionable? I'd sincerely like to know.

Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: bobad
Date: 08 Jul 19 - 01:23 PM

bob - I don't come after you.

Lol, the evidence is there in black and white but.....whatever. Anyway, I've got your number now.

Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Jul 19 - 01:27 PM

Bob - good, look after it in case I forget which number it is...

Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Mossback
Date: 08 Jul 19 - 02:00 PM

There's really no up side to feeding the boobad, gang.

Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Jul 19 - 02:02 PM

I think we've exhausted the subject. Thread closed.