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Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?

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Mrrzy 04 Jul 19 - 11:18 AM
Joe Offer 04 Jul 19 - 11:32 AM
Jeri 04 Jul 19 - 11:33 AM
Jeri 04 Jul 19 - 11:35 AM
gillymor 04 Jul 19 - 11:36 AM
Joe Offer 04 Jul 19 - 11:43 AM
Jeri 04 Jul 19 - 11:48 AM
GUEST 04 Jul 19 - 11:48 AM
Joe Offer 04 Jul 19 - 12:04 PM
gillymor 04 Jul 19 - 12:07 PM
gillymor 04 Jul 19 - 12:13 PM
Stilly River Sage 04 Jul 19 - 12:16 PM
gillymor 04 Jul 19 - 12:23 PM
Stilly River Sage 04 Jul 19 - 12:37 PM
gillymor 04 Jul 19 - 12:45 PM
Jeri 04 Jul 19 - 01:09 PM
punkfolkrocker 04 Jul 19 - 01:20 PM
Jim Carroll 04 Jul 19 - 01:23 PM
gillymor 04 Jul 19 - 01:23 PM
Joe Offer 04 Jul 19 - 01:27 PM
gillymor 04 Jul 19 - 01:32 PM
Stilly River Sage 04 Jul 19 - 01:57 PM
Stilly River Sage 04 Jul 19 - 01:58 PM
Megan L 04 Jul 19 - 02:35 PM
The Sandman 04 Jul 19 - 04:46 PM
Jeri 04 Jul 19 - 04:57 PM
The Sandman 04 Jul 19 - 05:02 PM
Mrrzy 04 Jul 19 - 05:07 PM
The Sandman 04 Jul 19 - 05:24 PM
Jeri 04 Jul 19 - 05:58 PM
The Sandman 05 Jul 19 - 02:10 AM
gillymor 05 Jul 19 - 05:52 AM
punkfolkrocker 05 Jul 19 - 08:11 AM
GUEST 05 Jul 19 - 08:35 AM
Mossback 05 Jul 19 - 08:37 AM
Mrrzy 05 Jul 19 - 10:07 AM
Mossback 05 Jul 19 - 10:17 AM
GUEST 05 Jul 19 - 12:28 PM
The Sandman 05 Jul 19 - 12:37 PM
Joe Offer 05 Jul 19 - 01:29 PM
Jim Carroll 06 Jul 19 - 02:42 AM
Jeri 06 Jul 19 - 09:20 AM
punkfolkrocker 06 Jul 19 - 11:21 AM
Stilly River Sage 06 Jul 19 - 11:27 AM
Backwoodsman 06 Jul 19 - 11:33 AM
gillymor 06 Jul 19 - 11:43 AM
Stilly River Sage 06 Jul 19 - 11:49 AM
punkfolkrocker 06 Jul 19 - 11:53 AM
gillymor 06 Jul 19 - 12:06 PM
Jeri 06 Jul 19 - 12:20 PM
gillymor 06 Jul 19 - 12:25 PM
Backwoodsman 06 Jul 19 - 12:31 PM
Mrrzy 06 Jul 19 - 01:21 PM
wysiwyg 06 Jul 19 - 01:34 PM
Mossback 06 Jul 19 - 01:43 PM
punkfolkrocker 06 Jul 19 - 01:56 PM
punkfolkrocker 06 Jul 19 - 02:16 PM
Joe Offer 06 Jul 19 - 02:21 PM
meself 06 Jul 19 - 02:38 PM
GUEST,henryp 06 Jul 19 - 03:52 PM
GUEST,Martin Ryan 06 Jul 19 - 07:06 PM
Steve Shaw 06 Jul 19 - 08:07 PM
punkfolkrocker 06 Jul 19 - 08:25 PM
Mossback 06 Jul 19 - 08:32 PM
punkfolkrocker 06 Jul 19 - 08:34 PM
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punkfolkrocker 06 Jul 19 - 09:59 PM
punkfolkrocker 06 Jul 19 - 10:02 PM
Mossback 06 Jul 19 - 10:08 PM
punkfolkrocker 06 Jul 19 - 11:12 PM
GUEST 07 Jul 19 - 03:45 AM
GUEST 07 Jul 19 - 03:47 AM
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GUEST 07 Jul 19 - 05:49 AM
gillymor 07 Jul 19 - 06:42 AM
punkfolkrocker 07 Jul 19 - 07:59 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Jul 19 - 08:50 AM
Backwoodsman 07 Jul 19 - 09:06 AM
punkfolkrocker 07 Jul 19 - 09:11 AM
Steve Shaw 07 Jul 19 - 09:52 AM
Mossback 07 Jul 19 - 10:19 AM
punkfolkrocker 07 Jul 19 - 10:23 AM
GUEST,henryp 07 Jul 19 - 10:59 AM
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punkfolkrocker 07 Jul 19 - 11:32 AM
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Big Al Whittle 07 Jul 19 - 02:01 PM
meself 07 Jul 19 - 02:20 PM
punkfolkrocker 07 Jul 19 - 02:25 PM
Steve Shaw 07 Jul 19 - 02:29 PM
Jeri 07 Jul 19 - 02:35 PM
GUEST 07 Jul 19 - 02:40 PM
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Subject: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 04 Jul 19 - 11:18 AM

I thought if you were pardoned you were legally innocent?


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 Jul 19 - 11:32 AM

Legally innocent, perhaps - but factually guilty. Still, one wonders whether an 80-year-old man should still be paying for the sins of his youth.


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Jeri
Date: 04 Jul 19 - 11:33 AM

What the heck are you talking about?


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Jeri
Date: 04 Jul 19 - 11:35 AM

Whatever it is...
a pardon means you did it, but the powers that be have forgiven you.
Legally not guilty is not legally innocent.


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: gillymor
Date: 04 Jul 19 - 11:36 AM

He's still a self-confessed and convicted sex offender, the pardon didn't change that.


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 Jul 19 - 11:43 AM

Back in the 1960s, Peter Yarrow was convicted for taking liberties with a teenage girl. It was a serious offense, and Yarrow spent time in jail for it. Jimmy Carter pardoned him.
Yarrow was booked for a concert recently, but the booking was cancelled because of the negative social media comments.


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Jeri
Date: 04 Jul 19 - 11:48 AM

I Googled. He was convicted of answering the door naked in 1970. I have friends who've done that, but there were't 14 and 17 year old girls on the other side. I don't know about other circumstances.

But seriously, answering the door naked 40-some years ago. And they just figured it out after booking him!? Stupid people...


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jul 19 - 11:48 AM

They would have known about the offence before they booked him. Looks to me like the whole thing was set up so that they could get press coverage from their virtue signalling.


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 Jul 19 - 12:04 PM

The current news stories downplay the incident, but I get the impression it was no accident. It may have led to the breakup of PP&M in the 1970s.


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: gillymor
Date: 04 Jul 19 - 12:07 PM

It seems he did more than just answer the door in the buff-"Yarrow answered the door naked and made sexual advances that stopped short of intercourse".
The Awareness Center, Inc

I seem to recall that Stookey had problems of a similar nature.


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: gillymor
Date: 04 Jul 19 - 12:13 PM

I may have gone off half-cocked regarding Stookey. I guess I've been confusing him with Yarrow all theses decades.


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Jul 19 - 12:16 PM

It's fifty years ago and he doesn't seem to have repeated the offense. Things really were different then. Give him a break.


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: gillymor
Date: 04 Jul 19 - 12:23 PM

And we don't know that he hasn't. If I were a concert promoter I'd pass on him.


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Jul 19 - 12:37 PM

In forestry that is called "cruising for hidden defect" - looking at a tree and assuming, or guessing something is wrong and downgrading it. In law, I think the equivalent would be innocent until proven guilty, and no other charges seem to have emerged in this volatile time.


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: gillymor
Date: 04 Jul 19 - 12:45 PM

There are a lot of talented artists out there who aren't convicted sex offenders, give them a shot. Yarrow blew his when he went after a 14 year old girl and it can't be argued that he paid his debt to society considering his sharply abbreviated prison term.


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Jeri
Date: 04 Jul 19 - 01:09 PM

He was sentenced to 3 months in jail. His pardon came about a decade later. And "sex offender"!? You think rape is the same as flashing somebody?


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Jul 19 - 01:20 PM

From this side of the Atlantic, in this supposedly more enlightened era,
it does seem a bit confusing
that some USA states may still permit 14 girls to get married...???????


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jul 19 - 01:23 PM

I would have thought that, as far as Me Too is concerned, this has far more to do with firing a shot across the bows of an industry notorious for the abuse of power and privilege where gullible youngsters are concerned
The same approach has worked to some extent with clerical abuse, though it is infuriating to recognise that, despite the massive concession by the Government in shouldering a major part of the burden of reparation, the church is still reneging on its part of the deal
The plea of "too long ago" seems to be a popular one where priests and pop-stars are concerned.
Wonder why!
JIm Carroll


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: gillymor
Date: 04 Jul 19 - 01:23 PM

You're the one characterizing it as "flashing somebody", by most accounts I'm aware of it involved something more than that and I didn't connect his shortened sentence to the later pardon.
As for the forestry analogy above, in this case the tree's initial defect was not hidden and it was found guilty of a felony.

I have no sympathy for child molesters as, like many of us, I know a couple of women near and dear to me who lives have been negatively altered from abuse in their early years. Now, I'm off to observe the holiday.


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 Jul 19 - 01:27 PM

And just to be clear, there was no question about Noel Paul Stookey. He's always been quite the family man.
Not sure how this got in the BS section. I've been posting on my phone and may have done it by accident.


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: gillymor
Date: 04 Jul 19 - 01:32 PM

Right, Joe. Again, my mistake re Stookey.
Happy 4th everyone.


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Jul 19 - 01:57 PM

Joe, because it's BS and not music?

The episode ended 50 years ago and he appears to have learned his lesson. He's allowed to vote, he's probably not on a registered sex offenders list, etc.


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Jul 19 - 01:58 PM

I put it in BS. It doesn't belong in music.


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Megan L
Date: 04 Jul 19 - 02:35 PM

some of the posts smack of the unco guid there is no one on earth so good or so wise that they can safely talk down of their neighbour.


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jul 19 - 04:46 PM

if you are pardoned you have been found guilty but pardoned.JERI   L according towikipedia
Criminal conviction and pardon by President Carter
Edit

In 1970 Yarrow was convicted of, and served three months in prison for taking "improper liberties" with a 14-year-old girl who went with her 17-year-old sister to Yarrow's hotel room seeking an autograph.[33][34][35][36][37] He has since apologized for the incident: "It was an era of real indiscretion and mistakes by categorically male performers. I was one of them. I got nailed. I was wrong. I'm sorry for it.
Jeri you should learn to check your facts before you make the following comment
Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Jeri - PM
Date: 04 Jul 19 - 11:48 AM

I Googled. He was convicted of answering the door naked in 1970. I have friends who've done that, but there were't 14 and 17 year old girls on the other side. I don't know about other circumstances.

But seriously, answering the door naked 40-some years ago. And they just figured it out after booking him!? Stupid people...


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Jeri
Date: 04 Jul 19 - 04:57 PM

Pretty much what I found, and the meaning of "pardon" is what I said.

"by most accounts I'm aware of it involved something more than that". Gillymor, I don't know what accounts you're aware of. Share?
He served the full sentence.

And it's about a musician's appearance at a festival being cancelled. Should have stayed in music, regardless of the discussion of the scandal part.


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jul 19 - 05:02 PM

Jeri he molested a young girl. I happen to agree with his political views, but that is not the point, anyone who molests an under age girl has committed an offence, molesting a girl is different from answering the door naked, as you stated


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 04 Jul 19 - 05:07 PM

Oh, lots of Americans consider showing nudity to be molestation of those who'd rather not see it.


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jul 19 - 05:24 PM

Convicted sex offender who admitted molesting a 14-year-old girl.

"A 14-year-old girl and her 17-year-old sister went to Yarrow’s hotel room in Washington, DC, in 1970 seeking an autograph, it was reported at the time. Yarrow, then about 32, answered the door naked. He made sexual advances that stopped short of intercourse."
so according to this he did not just answer the door naked , he did more than that, he made sexual advances


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Jeri
Date: 04 Jul 19 - 05:58 PM

"Sexual advances" isn't even close to molestation, which, I would think, involves touching.
In any case, this has become too nit-picky, and villagers-with-pitchforks-and-torches for me to want to continue discussing it,so, bye.


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jul 19 - 02:10 AM

there was a victim in this, a young underage girl the trouble is Jeri   your judgement has become clouded because you agree with Pters political views, if for example tjhis had been Nixon or joe mcCarthy i bet you would not be defending him.
typical that you disappear when you realise you are mistaken.peter accepted his guilt[which is more than you appear to do] and apologised whether the show should have been cancelled is a different matter.,   Jeri stop trying to defend an indefensible action.


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: gillymor
Date: 05 Jul 19 - 05:52 AM

jeri seems to have vacated this thread but I'll answer the questions she put to me-
Yes I know the difference between "flashing somebody" (a term that only you seem to use to describe Yarrow's admitted crime) and rape (something I never accused him of) but you don't seem to know the difference between "flashing somebody" and attempting to have sex with someone below the age of consent.
According to an article in the NY Post- "Yarrow served three months of a one- to three-year prison sentence after pleading guilty to taking “indecent liberties’’ with the girl." It would appear he got much more than a 3 month sentence and did more than just display his weiner, which is a scenario that you seem to be clinging to, as well as parroting his "everybody was doing it back then" defense which is no defense at all.
New York Post


I have nothing against Yarrow, I admire him for his social and political activism but to me when you commit a sex crime against a minor you pretty much relinquish the benefit of the doubt. If I had a young daughter I wouldn't want him anywhere near her, then or now.


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Jul 19 - 08:11 AM

But how does USA reconcile itself with an act of underage sex that is a crime in most states,
yet condoned by a marriage certificate in a minority of others....

That just looks perplexing and archaic from over here...


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jul 19 - 08:35 AM

"Sexual advances" isn't even close to molestation"

So you'd be happy for some older guy to make sexual advances to your underage daughter?

It's up to a festival to decide whether they want to book someone or not.
End of story.
The more people make it clear that this kind of sleazebag behaviour does not go unpunished, the less likely it is to happen again.


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Mossback
Date: 05 Jul 19 - 08:37 AM

The "Me Too" movement began as something I approved of and supported whole-heartedly. It has now in many cases morphed into a McCarthyite lynch mob. I suppose the next phase will be 'the revolution devouring its own'.

That's a shame.


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 05 Jul 19 - 10:07 AM

Not that making passes at 14yos is a good idea, but many Americans consider unwanted passes to be molestation.

Does sound as if a lot more than a pass happened, though.


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Mossback
Date: 05 Jul 19 - 10:17 AM

Vass you dere, Sharlie?


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jul 19 - 12:28 PM

I was reading this morning of a case in America where a young man who raped a girl slightly younger than himself (she was underage, he was not), then passed around a film of the rape to his mates, heading it "what happens if your first sexua experiance is to be raped"
The judge, in his wisdom, ruled that "because the youth had no previous record and came from a very good home, it would be wrong to allow him to be tried as an adult at it would ruin a very promising future"
He also commented that he "didn't believe it to be rape as it wasn't carried out at gunpoint"

Yarrow's case isn't comparable with this atrocity at all but it is indicative of what women have to combat if they are brave enough to to bring charges against rapists and sexual molesters.
'Me To' needs all the help they can get when it comes to dealing with sexual predators in high places, in my book.

Dick
You obviously haven't read Mudcat's handbook
If a singer who has devoted his life to passing on his love of traditional song, has been unwise enough to comment on a woman's nail varnish at a folk club six decades ago, that heinous crime is still considered a worthy point for discussion thirty years after his death, even to the point of making discussion of the singer's work a no-go area.
On the other hand, if a folkie superstar shows his willie to a couple of fourteen year olds seeking his autograph, we should forgive and forget as it might stop him getting work
It's all down to perspective
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jul 19 - 12:37 PM

specsavers or rosetinted spectacles


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Jul 19 - 01:29 PM

I think I'd agree with Mossback. Sexual assault on women is a serious issue, and we must bring it to an end. But Yarrow's offense happened fifty years ago, and there is no evidence of subsequent offenses.


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jul 19 - 02:42 AM

"happened fifty years ago"
Around the time Jimmy Savile stated raping children under his care
Maybe the earlier ones should never have been counted !
How long ago thi happened really has no place here - this has been used far too often to excuse paedophile priests
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Jeri
Date: 06 Jul 19 - 09:20 AM

I'm with Joe. Under aged "groupies" who knock on someone's door are not the same. But, like I said, villagers with pitchforks and torches.


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Jul 19 - 11:21 AM

willing underage groupies or not, don't you have a charge of statuary rape..

and what about the child brides in some USA states...???


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Jul 19 - 11:27 AM

How long ago this happened really has no place here

Of course it does! One time, jail, finished, versus a serial rapist on the loose for ages? If you can't see that, you have no sense of proportion, or what punishment fits the crime.


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Jul 19 - 11:33 AM

And, of course, there is no such thing as ‘willing’ if the person is below the legal age of consent - which is what I think pfr is saying. A person below the LAoC cannot be ‘willing’ because they are too young to be considered competent to give consent to sexual activity.

But - and it’s a big ‘but’ - he was put through the legal process fifty years ago, served his sentence and, as far as anyone knows, has never re-offended. Ostensibly, he learned from the experience and modified his behaviour to standards that are acceptable within the law and society. Isn’t that what a prison sentence is for? Looks as though it worked in this case.

Time to give him a break?


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: gillymor
Date: 06 Jul 19 - 11:43 AM

"One time, jail, finished...". You really think that kind of behavior occurs just once and then it's over? Look at Trump. Like I said, he forfeited the benefit of the doubt. Let concert and festival promoters make their own decisions, I'm sure Mr. Yarrow won't be missing any meals.

"Under aged "groupies" who knock on someone's door are not the same."
I don't quite understand that, is that the "she was asking for it" defense?


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Jul 19 - 11:49 AM

Let's not judge everyone by the standard Trump sets, shall we? I don't see Yarrow, or men like Al Franken or Garrison Keillor in the same group as Trump or Harvey Weinstein or Roger Ailes, etc.


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Jul 19 - 11:53 AM

I take a balanced fairly tolerant view on this..

I differentiate between evil serial sexual predators,
and young men making the most of the hedonistic lifestyle and temptations on offer
from being in a rock band 50 years ago...

Record labels knew they could rip off male artist with bad recording contracts
because the dumb young bucks were more than contented with the copious sex, drugs.. and rock n roll...

Anyone who was young in the 1970s, knows first hand that acceptable social norms and behavior
were very different back then...

Any musician behaving in such decadent libertine ways now in 2019
shouldn't be too surprised if arrested and vilified...
..and should always stay aware that there are phone cams and cctv everywhere...


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: gillymor
Date: 06 Jul 19 - 12:06 PM

All powerful men who took advantage of their positions to abuse females, some who were below the age of consent. While the degree of their sleaziness may vary I wouldn't leave any of them alone with my daughter.


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Jeri
Date: 06 Jul 19 - 12:20 PM

Gillymor, no, it's not the "she asked for it" defense. It's the "he opened his door and subsequently made bad decisions" vs "he drove to a local mall and trolled for teenaged girls" invitation to sanity.

But I'm interfering with folks' recreational outrage.
(Or their addiction to taking their pitchforks and torches to go after their perceived monster.)


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: gillymor
Date: 06 Jul 19 - 12:25 PM

Thanks for responding, now I'm off to sharpen the tines of my pitchfork.


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Jul 19 - 12:31 PM

Pfr, I absolutely agree with your last post.


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 06 Jul 19 - 01:21 PM

Sometimes, yes, bed things can be done only once. Oops, I meant bad. I bullied someone once, never before nor again. Felt awful, for decades, about it.


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 06 Jul 19 - 01:34 PM

The thread title and much of the discussion demonstrate exactly how women's outrage is still viewed. No one is entitled to tell someone who has been victimized how long they get to stay mad about it, much less a whole class of people... and you can't refer (or fail to object) to a powerful movement in the way the thread title does, without showing your precise point on the enormous continuum of misogyny.


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Mossback
Date: 06 Jul 19 - 01:43 PM

Susan, do you carry your pitchfork in your right hand and your torch in the left, or the other way 'round?


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Jul 19 - 01:56 PM

wysiwyg - That'll be a powerful movement that is necessary, important,
and an effective vehicle in the struggle for overdue fairness and justice.

But it aint perfect, and will harbour amongst the multitude of women fighting this cause,
a minority who are motivated by unjust spite and disproportionate vengeance...
That's just good ol' human nature...


"No one is entitled to tell someone who has been victimized how long they get to stay mad about it, much less a whole class of people"

well.. maybe the elderly Jewish lady who survived the holocaust,
who has jut passed away...
She later realized how much better living could be after she let go of the bitterness,
and forgave her n@zi torturers...
She didn't do it for the evil old men who took so much away from her in her childhood,
but for herself, for her own sense of well being...

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jul/06/eva-kor-survivor-of-mengele-dies-during-annual-trip-to-auschwitz

"Forgive your worst enemies,” Kor said in a video recording of her last visit to the Auschwitz Museum posted to its official Facebook page.
“The moment I forgave the Nazis, I felt free from Auschwitz and from all the tragedy that had occurred to me,” she added.
"


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Jul 19 - 02:16 PM

btw.. where exactly is my "precise point on the enormous continuum of misogyny"...???

That might have sounded a bit clever when you were typing it,
but it's just as over reacting & insulting as any of the stupid things
chauvinistic men can say about all women...

..or any other zealots when attacking their perceived enemy...


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Jul 19 - 02:21 PM

Society is outraged by crime, and rightly so. We cry out for heavier and longer penalties for those who commit crime, and we often complain that a criminal got just a slap on the wrist for his crime.
I spent a lot of time on the job in jails and prisons, and I never found a prison that looked like a country club. One month in jail is still a significant punishment. Five years in prison is almost inhumane... even though it may not be equal to the anguish suffered by the victim of the crime.
I think we need to reconsider our response to crime. We waste too much money and too many human lives in our prisons. And we set people up for further crime if we deny inmates employment and exclude them from society once they are released.
If a person evades punishment for fifty years like some offenders have, they deserve prosecution and punishment. But if they were punished for their crime fifty years ago, the punishment should not continue for a lifetime. Peter Yarrow spent time in jail, and I understand that the conviction was part of the reason why PP&M broke up for a decade. Yarrow paid the price fifty years ago. Continued shunning is not necessary or helpful or just.


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: meself
Date: 06 Jul 19 - 02:38 PM

"I wouldn't leave any of them alone with my daughter." ... um ... is anyone asking you to?

"No one is entitled to tell someone who has been victimized how long they get to stay mad about it" - Is anyone telling the woman in question how long she gets to stay mad, or asking her if she is still mad (or if she ever was)?


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 06 Jul 19 - 03:52 PM

The United States has a strange obsession with putting people in prison.

The USA officially has the highest incarceration rate in the world, according to data from the International Center for Prison Studies. For every 100,000 people who lived in the US in 2011, 716 were in jail. Most European countries, like France, Germany and the UK, have between 50 and 150 prisoners per 100,000 residents.

Despite falling crime rates, the US prison population has grown from 307,276 in 1978 to a high of 1.6 million prisoners in state and federal prisons in 2009, according to a report from the Pew Research Center. Since then, in the last three years, the prison population has declined, but only slightly.

Joe, have you read The Spirit Level: Why Equality is Better for Everyone?It was written by Richard Wilkinson and Kate Pickett, two English academics with a background in "health inequalities", and first published in 2009. They offer evidence to show that many aspects of society - from life expectancy to mental illness, from violence to illiteracy - are determined not by how wealthy a society is, but how equal it is. It's a fascinating account, and the USA and the UK have a great deal in common.


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 06 Jul 19 - 07:06 PM

Odd that this survives above the line ...

Regards


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jul 19 - 08:07 PM

I'm fully with Susan and gillymor on this. This is not about a sex offender getting his legal just desserts then expecting everyone to forget it and give him a bye. I've just been done for speeding (87mph in a 70). I got fined and my points last for four years. In law, I'm clear after four years. But that doesn't mean I never did it, that it should be forgotten, that I'm as innocent as any non-speeder. I'm besmirched for life. Lots of people close to me who know what I did won't forget it. It may, at a stretch, even colour their view as to whether I should ever be entirely trusted behind the wheel. I can't insist that they forget all about it once the four years are up. I wouldn't trust a bloke who once flashed his dick at a young girl ever. Not even after fifty years. His judgement on that occasion was terrible and he can never prove to the world that he's incapable of doing it again, just like me and my speeding (I've been done before, by the way, and may well be done again, even though I'm trying hard). I wouldn't trust him near my girls and I wouldn't book him for a gig. That's his tough shit. It can be a hard world, and let's not forget that this isn't the law we're talking about. It's about parents and other concerned adults setting their private standard as to how the world should be. We need lots more of that.


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Jul 19 - 08:25 PM

Steve - your speeding car can kill potentially far more people
than any old man's dick...

I'd suggest that actually makes you much more of an immediate threat to innocent society...

His dick has apparently behaved itself for many decades..

You're still out at large on the roads for as long as you can get away with it..

Your crime may arguably be much worse than his, yet you received a much lesser penalty...???


I'm only seeing what you just confessed to in perspective...


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Mossback
Date: 06 Jul 19 - 08:32 PM

Steve, I'm a bit surprised by your take on this. No one is suggesting that the incident be forgotten, least of all Mr. Yarrow.

It may, at a stretch, even colour their view as to whether I should ever be entirely trusted behind the wheel.

If it does, then "they" are idiots - unless this is your attempt at sarcasm?

As for your speeding ticket analogy, should you lose your livelihood or pension because of it - decades after the fact? Or should you me made to pay for it repeatedly and indefinitely?

As for Susan, she likes to wear her "Christianity" on her sleeve. Perhaps its appropriate she take a refresher course on Christ's teachings.

Cheers,

Bill


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Jul 19 - 08:34 PM

... oh yes.. and as you say.. let's not forget the parents..

or any other family members of folks you could seriously injure or kill...

Now weighing that up against a flashed dick...???

Not that I'm in anyway condoning such appalling behaviour.....


btw.. my old nan laughed her head off when she was flashed in her 50s...
A girlfriend got flashed at in her teens,
and if I remember she told her parent and the cops were called..

Neither were traumatized in the slightest...

However, if they had a knock on the door from a police officer saying a relative
had just been mown down by a speeding car...

Juat takes a little bit of conjecture... innit...


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jul 19 - 09:00 PM

Some bad logic going on here. First, he definitely flashed his dick at young girls, maybe worse. Second, I definitely haven't killed anyone via speeding. It's a bit mischievous to make that comparison. Incidentally, if you want context, I was caught on a completely empty stretch of the A30 dual carriageway on a long, straight downhill section near Bodmin on a sunny Saturday morning in February. You judged me as a potential killer, yet, at the time of my offence (and I'm not complaining - bang to rights was I), the chances of my killing anyone were precisely zilch. So I've killed no-one, though I took a risk I suppose, slight though it was, but he definitely flashed his dick, maybe more. Yet you rush to judgement on me but give this other fellow a pass for an action that might have had you punching his lights out had you found that it was your daughter he'd abused. Weird.

And I haven't heard Susan invoking her Christianity. In fact, after years of reading her posts, it took someone other than her, in this very thread, to inform me of her Christian sentiments. I agree with Christians all the time about all sorts of things. Joe'll tell you that.


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Jul 19 - 09:13 PM

Steve.. but you would say that, wouldn't you...

I studied law over 40 years ago..
Taking a neutral position - objectively comparing real and hypothetical cases,
or the relative severity and consequences of different crimes..
that was all par for the course...

Despite tuning my back on that career path,
I still seem to have some of the muscle memory
of that particular skill set...

You chose to turn your crime public domain, I'm simply running with it as part of this thread...

Personally I think your crime is worse than a flashed dick...
But is it as bad as a one off instance of child abuse...???
well that's for law students to debate..
..and of course bolshy old gits like us...

btw.. carry on the good work not killing anybody..

I've not killed anybody yet either for what it's worth...

But give me more time...


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Jul 19 - 09:17 PM

"Yet you rush to judgement on me but give this other fellow a pass"

I haven't given anyone a pass - him or you...

Justice was served for both of you...


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jul 19 - 09:30 PM

Speeding of the type I was guilty of is not a "crime." Maybe you like this bloke's singing or something, who knows, and are of the "aw, give him a break" ilk. Well you give him a break if you like. Thousands wouldn't, including several of us in this thread. It's not about whether he's served his punishment according to the law. It's about whether we can stomach the notion of a bloke who deliberately abused young girls, whether we are record-buyers or gig-fixers or gig-attenders. He has no right to expect people to forget the distasteful thing he did. Good luck to him if they do. You can show the same distaste to me for my speeding on an empty open road (and I don't lie, thanks). I can't expect you not to if that's how you feel. But something inside me says that you can't be feeling entirely comfortable equating the two offences. Just remember: he definitely exposed himself to young girls. I definitely haven't killed anyone.


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Jul 19 - 09:59 PM

Steve - I've just read the first lines of your latest post,
and you are talking bollocks..

I couldn't give a monkeys about Yarrow.
My gang of 1970s teenagers always thought PP&M were far too drippy to be bothered with..
Out of curiosity I asked Alexa to play a Yarrow solo track today, and it was terrible.
I'm completely indifferent to the man
..no skin off my nose what happens to him...

You are out of order accusing me of being an apologist for him...

I know anything about his criminality other than what's discussed in this thread,
which I was reading out of curiosity,
then commenting on as is any mudcatter's privilege to do..

But I am a life long pedestrian and cyclist,
and I've heard too many arrogant bad drivers making excuses for far too long...

I have family all over the South West, so I hope you consider that
if you ever decide to speed again.
Grave yards are full of over confident drivers and their victims...

In comparison to that, as distasteful as an old man's dick might be to see,
they are not as potentially lethal...

Btw.. I then read the rest of you post while composing this...
I'm fair and even handed like that...


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Jul 19 - 10:02 PM

oops... "I don't know anything about his criminality"...


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Mossback
Date: 06 Jul 19 - 10:08 PM

Apparently this needs saying again, Steve. No-one is asking anyone to FORGET WHAT HE DID- not me, not PFR, not Yarrow himself.

OK?


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Jul 19 - 11:12 PM

Self righteous rants are one approach to such situations..

The unforgiving condemnation of offending individuals to a lifetime, even eternity of damnation...

Well.. maybe that can help some folks feel better about themselves,
in a kind of "at least I'm not as bad as he is..." sort of way...
Like in prisons where a nonce's life expectancy in general population is very short...

Then there are words such as "contrition", "repentance", "redemption";
which seem to go down well with people holding more forgiving beliefs...

Obviously, it's the shouty hotheads who often tend to win arguments...


Just a reminder, in recent years, an immigrant in Bristol was beaten and burnt to death in public,
after being accused of being a kiddie fiddler..
..because he was foreign and looked a bit weird.

Of course he was an entirely innocent victim of lynch mob violence...

I don't care enough about Yarrow as an individual,
but the principle of him being allowed a 2nd chance so many decades after his conviction,
does merit serious discussion...

It's not Like he's Gary Glitter...???


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 03:45 AM

We really have been here before and the same arguments have been used in defence of paedofile priests, rapist rugby players and predatory pop personalities - "it all happened a long time ago" - "they served their time", "forgive and forget"   
I have little doubt that, given time, some will be pleading that we remember the pleasure Savile and Weinstein brought to the people and the good deeds of Father Groper (some already have - I can remember a torrent of support for Rolf Harris from one member)
People are treating this as an individual case, while, in fact it is part of a whole outlook towards the vulnerable - basically, "those in the position to, regularly use that position to prey on the weakest"
It is a situation that has besmeared the Theatre in Britain and Ireland, is damaging sport, has undermined young people's organisations like Youth Clubs and the Scouts, has entered into our education system, has always been a recognized aspect of the film industry, is a part of big business and politics - and it has driven a massive and irremovable wedge between true believers and their church - damaging both

This may have been only a "not-too serious" incident, but Me Too appear to believe there can be no exceptions - they have my vote on that one
It saddens me when intelligent people refer to their efforts as "self-righteous rants" - that's a recipe for leaving things as they are.

I tend to share Martin's surprise that this should be above the line - it goes far further than just music
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 03:47 AM

I also find it less than amusing that this feller now merits his own thread
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 04:02 AM

...And he got caught. Once...

Who knows...


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 05:49 AM

"Who knows..."
And who else? - they used to be called 'Peter Paul and Hairy' in Liverpool!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: gillymor
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 06:42 AM

Yep, once he committed a sex crime against a minor and confessed to it he introduced an element of doubt about his behavior that rightfully should follow him to the end of his days. Yarrow was 32 years old at the time of this incident and most people I've known have pretty much calibrated their moral compass by that age so it's not inconceivable to me that his lewd behavior in the presence of minors could have continued after this episode and preceded it. I may be mistaken about him but I figure it's better to err on the side of the victim and potential victims and not on the side of a self-confessed sex offender. I wish Mr. Yarrow all the best and am not arguing that he be subjected to further punishment by the law but if people in the music industry don't wish to avail themselves of his services I quite understand.


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 07:59 AM

"It saddens me when intelligent people refer to their efforts as "self-righteous rants""

Jim - you've got the wrong end of the stick...

I wasn't referring to "Me Too"..

I've stated earlier that they are a much needed movement for justice.

Nor am I referring to calm objective reasonable thinkers on this issue like yourself [most of the time],
and most others in this thread

BUT I am criticizing the aggressively vociferous self righteous zealots and their lynch mob mentality
that stirs up false accusations and violence against innocent people...
Or demands the infliction of disproportionately severe punishment on the most minor offenders.

I've made it more than clear I don't care about Yarrow as an individual.
I wouldn't have shed a tear for Gary Glitter if he'd been hung in Thailand
[or wherever it was he was rearrested for persisting in his serial abuse]

But it's the principles of either give 'em a 2nd chance,
or give 'em a life of shunning and vilification
that deserve rigorously intelligent rational non-emotive debate...

We certainly should not be shouted down, or guilted into silence,
by folks who habitually rely on those discussion ending strategies...


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 08:50 AM

"BUT I am criticizing the aggressively vociferous self righteous zealots and their lynch mob mentality
that stirs up false accusations and violence against innocent people..."
I don't think that applies heer P - Yarrow did what he did and was punished for it - no question.
I do believe, where children are concerned, extra caution should be applied, but that's it
The cases of abusive celebrities continues to be an issue, more revelations about Kevin Spacey this morning (we have similar problems in Ireland at The Gate Theatre)
Until the entertainment and artistic movements clean up their act we rely largely on organisations like 'me too' - especially now the world is dominated by a "go grab some pussy if it turns you on" American President
Jim
(waddya mean "most of the time" !!!


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 09:06 AM

”I do believe, where children are concerned, extra caution should be applied”

I’m sure we all do Jim, as someone who worked with children I know I do.

But this thread is about a venue cancelling a performer’s gig over something he did fifty years ago, was prosecuted for, and served his prison sentence. No cover-ups, no repeats of the offence.

Completely different, unrelated circumstances.


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 09:11 AM

Jim - one more time .. I don't care about Yarrow..
He is not my concern...
For me he is just entry into a broader discussion in this thread...

Obviously he deserves justice one way or the other,
but no one should suffer unfairly in the court of public opinion.

Or at worst be beaten and burnt to death by halfwit thugs on a Bristol housing estate...
Especially when innocent of all accusations from an over righteous lynch mob of idiots...

Kiddie fiddlers do require a balance of punishment and treatment.
But it should be evaluated and served objectively by a calm headed justice system..

Wealth & power should be no let off..

Anyway, basically we are mostly in agreement on "Me Too" and the relevant issues...


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 09:52 AM

Absolutely agree with all of gillymor's post. A couple of things here. He committed a crime for which he's served his punishment according to the law. He gets his "second chance" by dint of the fact that he wasn't incarcerated for ever. But that second chance comes with caveats, and there's a fair bit of conflating going on here. Public opinion isn't punishing him. There is no "court of public opinion." We are not talking about him still being punished by some law or other. The law is no longer interested in him. He will have done hundreds of gigs I'm sure since the offence. The organisers and punters either didn't care or didn't know or a mixture of the two. That's all fine by me. It's just that I personally wouldn't have gone to those gigs. That's not me punishing him. That's me refusing to hold my nose. He's a child abuser and I'm not, so I find it odd that I'm criticised for demurring while he's being stood up for. Incidentally, I've seen all his gushing sorrow, etc., for what he did. I note that one excuse (yes, excuse) was that that's what people did in those days. Well that don't wash with me, because I for one didn't and wouldn't have. That's not me being self-righteous, pfr. That's me being normal, unlike him. I also noted from the contemporary reports that the 14-year-old had been obliged to resist his advances. No casual accident, was it then? I wouldn't bandy around unfounded suspicions as to whether he did it before or since, but I know what I think and what I think informs my attitude to him. That's how it should be and I respect anyone's right to have a different attitude.


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Mossback
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 10:19 AM

Well now, lets see-

"not-too serious" incident, but Me Too appear to believe there can be no exceptions

Precisely. Thus treating rape and a lewd comment as equivalent and equal offences. Which is obviously bollocks.

People are treating this as an individual case, while, in fact it is part of a whole outlook

Thus Yarrow should suffer for the sins of others?

His lewd behavior in the presence of minors could have continued after this episode and preceded it.

So now its prosecute and punish and stigmatize people for what they MIGHT have done or MIGHT do? What's next, the thought police?

I figure it's better to err on the side of the victim and potential victims

To the point where the person under consideration is the one victimized?

if people in the music industry don't wish to avail themselves of his services I quite understand.

Rather like those bakers who didn't wish to bake a cake for 'cause they don't like faggots?

Then there's the howling mob that lynched Al Frankin because he acted like a jerk- nothing more serious. I assume you approve of and applaud that as well?

Perhaps that same mob can apply their talents to the serial rapist in the White House.


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 10:23 AM

Steve - re: Gary Glitter...

I am mostly a lefty, but fairly right wing on law and order..
perhaps more so than a lot of conservatives...

I couldn't give a toss if Glitter rots and dies in prison,
or is free but stays hidden away out of sight.
AS long as he is robustly prevented from re-offending...

I'd even turn a blind eye if he got his share of punches and kicks in the vans and corridors of police custody...

He is a vile human being.

I know for a fact the local Somerset community were so in awe of him living in the area
they joked in envy about his jailbait house parties...
You can put that down to "it was the 80s" and "That sort of thing is normal for zummerzet.."
But he was tolerated and enabled.
There are rumours one of my cousins went to school with 15 year old girls who went to his parties.
She may even have been one of them.
It's the sort of thing no one ever talks about in that locality..

However, as evil as the man is,
I'll still enjoy his greatest hits - but discretely on headphones,
in case the neighbours hear and stir up a lynch mob...

He is by no means the only despicable artist folks have to make such difficult personal decisions about...

An old folkie recording artist was sentenced for child abuse somewhere in the west country recently.
[no.. not Harper.. a more obscure one hit wonder singer..]
I noticed it wasn't mentioned on mudcat...

[or if it was, it wasn't front page news...]


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 10:59 AM

As Jim Carroll said; "now the world is dominated by a "go grab some pussy if it turns you on" American President."

Two faces of America;
1. A music festival has disinvited folk singer Peter Yarrow of Peter, Paul and Mary over his 1970 jail sentence for indecent liberties with a 14-year-old girl. The 81-year-old Yarrow was to appear Sept. 8 with a performance painter.
2. Donald Trump Delivers Address at US Air Force Academy Graduation - May 30, 2019

Meanwhile, in the UK;
1. Brexit Party MEP Ann Widdecombe has seen her one-woman show cancelled after suggesting science may "produce an answer" to homosexuality.
2. A leading businessman has been granted an injunction against The Telegraph to prevent this newspaper revealing alleged sexual harassment and racial abuse of staff.

Ray Davies was right - it's a mixed up, muddled up, shook up world.


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 11:10 AM

"Thus Yarrow should suffer for the sins of others?"
No - he should suffer for his own sins - those of taking advantage of his privileged position in order to abuse two children
Nobody is suggesting he be locked away and have the key thrown away - just that those who are in the position to do so have the right not to book him - and that the women who are constantly at risk of abuse, should have the right to ask that he should not be booked
'Might have done'
Any criminal is quite likely to have his/her past record taken into consideration so that it can be judged whether he is likely to repeat his crimes
What makes me howl here is that if, say Corbyn, was guilty of such a crime the press (and some here, no doubt) would be screaming for hanging, drawing and quartering to be brought back   

For me, one of the most sickening aspects of these revelations is the foreknowledge that went before the exposure.
Weinstein's predatory behaviour was a running joke in Hollywood yet it took a few brave women nay-sayers to bring him to book
The BBC was fully aware of Savile's reputation with children he was given access to yet they covered it up.
The hierarchy of the church not only ignored the rapist priests, but they moved them on in order that they could go on raping.
It's only now beginning to emerge just how deep this problem has penetrated THE POP INDUSTRY (bad taste pun intended)
Yet here we have decent, intelligent people all chorusing "Pity the downtrodden paedo".   
Sorry (lads (and lass) - I don't buy it
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 11:27 AM

""Pity the downtrodden paedo""


Jim - you might be getting a bit carried away here...

I don't see anyone saying such a daft thing...???

If they got caught they deserved their just punishment..
If they haven't been caught yet, and think they got away with it,
then it's about time they get what's coming to them...

simple enough.. innit..


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 11:32 AM

.. oh..and I hope this debate doesn't sink to the level of..

"if you don't agree with my views about paedos,
then there must be something very suspicious in that regard about you...!!!???
"...


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Mossback
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 11:36 AM

the women who are constantly at risk of abuse, should have the right to ask that he should not be booked

Exactly what abuse are these women at risk of from an 81-year-old?

Any criminal is quite likely to have his/her past record taken into consideration

And his/her "future record" - provided by a psychic or necromancer presumably - as well?


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 01:49 PM

Jim - I'm thinking back over 20 years to banter about Gary Glitter
when news first appeared about his computer hard drive..

General tone was something like

"lucky bastard, all that fame and money, and shagging jailbait groupies.."

Then rumours started appearing that he'd raped a baby...
Which completely changed the views of average bloke in a West country pub..

Whatever the facts of his crimes - he got caught and dealt with.
Maybe not as harshly as some would have demanded...

But now to points of law...

Consenting underage teenage girl and raped baby..
Two extremes now conflated in public opinion as the same crime.
Degrees of criminal intent seem immaterial.
Paedo is the only word in use condemning either, and all ages in between.
Even though there are existing definitions distinguishing between paedos,
and sex with post pubescent underage teens..
But by common usage, a paedo is a paedo, is a paedo....

Consent is no defence in law, even if the minor was only one day away from the age of consent.
In such narrowly marginal cases, is consent even considered a mitigating factor for sentencing...???
Should the offender be judged to be as evil as a baby raper...???

I've now read up on Yarrow.
His offence seems non-consensual by most reasonable standards.
Perhaps he was let off too lightly..

Certain Rolling Stones seem to be teflon coated...


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 02:01 PM

I wonder what I did ....fifty odd years ago.

Answers on a post card.

1st prize...a week in Mansfield.


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: meself
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 02:20 PM

"But by common usage, a paedo is a paedo, is a paedo...."

I see you haven't been keeping up: in common usage now, a 'paedo' is anyone sexually attracted to those below the age of consent in the jurisdiction concerned. We no longer have a term for those attracted to pre-pubescents, as far as I know.


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 02:25 PM

meself - I know that.. wasn't it part of the point I was making...???

..about distinctions, degree of evil intent, etc...


btw.. the word for pervs who with a fetish for the extremely elderly is a good 'un...


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 02:29 PM

"'not-too serious' incident, but Me Too appear to believe there can be no exceptions"

Precisely. Thus treating rape and a lewd comment as equivalent and equal offences."

If indeed Me Too believe that there can be no exceptions (I haven't studied their modus operandi), it doesn't follow that they treat every offence as equivalent and equal.

"Exactly what abuse are these women at risk of from an 81-year-old?"

I know a man who is eighty years old who is in the middle of a fifteen-year jail term for historical child abuse (dating back to the fifties and early sixties). He is absolutely no danger to anyone any more. But he ruined lives. Are you suggesting that he's, er, too old to be punished?


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Jeri
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 02:35 PM

If anyone wonders how lynch mobs became a thing...


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 02:40 PM

"If anyone wonders how lynch mobs became a thing..."
Similar was being said about abusive priests not so long ago
Came to an end when their church collapsed around them
Some people never learn
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Mossback
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 02:46 PM

Are you suggesting that he's, er, too old to be punished?

FFS, Steve, of course not. But Yarrow WAS punished for what he did 50 years ago 50 years ago. And he freely admitted what he did. And he apologized - repeatedly- for doing it. And he's done a world of good since in various spheres of humanitarian activism. Should we "forget what he did"? Of course not. Neither should he continue to be punished and persecuted.

it doesn't follow that they treat every offence as equivalent and equal.

Ah, but they HAVE done & continue to do so. Its well documented - check it out. Start, e.g., with the aforementioned Al Franken. Or Garrison Keillor.

Again, when do you figure the Me Too true believers will get around to the serial rapist in the White House?


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 03:37 PM

I wish I'd been sexually desirable enough for celebrities to lure me into compromising situations.


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 04:46 PM

Yep, Bill, he apologised. And made excuses along the lines of it's what we did, it was of its time, etc. Now look at here. I care not a jot what other people want to either condemn, indulge or ignore. I'm simply telling you what I think. And what I think is that sexual predators are a bit wicked and despite their excuses and apologies I won't let them off the hook. I can still smile nicely, I can talk politics and can say hello in the street. But I'm not going to their gigs or buying their records. No issue for me if you take a different line. That's all. He did what he did and condemned himself to lifelong side glances. That's what happens. And that's right.


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Mossback
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 06:15 PM

And made excuses along the lines of it's what we did, it was of its time

What he actually said was: "It was an era of real indiscretion and mistakes by categorically male performers."

Which is an explanation, not an excuse. Its also a fact.

He continued: "I was one of them. I got nailed. I was wrong. I'm sorry for it."

He has also said:

"“I fully support the current movements demanding equal rights for all and refusing to allow continued abuse and injury — most particularly of a sexual nature, of which I am, with great sorrow, guilty,” he said. “I do not seek to minimize or excuse what I have done and I cannot adequately express my apologies and sorrow for the pain and injury I have caused in this regard.

However, beyond any of my words and feelings expressed, I will walk the walk, do all I can to make amends, and dedicate myself to helping bring more justice and peace to the world.”

Yup, there's a real dangerous desperado for sure.


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 06:58 PM

Well, Bill, he "also said" that after he got caught. I have no issue with them wot apologise after they've been nicked. But you won't catch many of them apologising BEFORE they've been caught.

I'm sure he's a luvly feller. Or am I that sure...well, not him. No prob. But I won't be booking him, buying his albums nor going to his gigs. It's a ountry.


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 07:31 PM

As mentioned above, there is a significant difference between forgiving and forgetting. I was molested [though my own ignorance] at Boy Scout camp when I was 11 years old. Should I forget? NO. I taught my son how to respond in the same circumstances so it would not happen him.

Did I forgive the asshole who molested me? Yes, but it took a long time. I have better things to do with my life than to let anger and the memory of his abuse control my life. He has to live with himself.

I wonder where the woman and her sister who were involved in the incident are now, both emotionally and cognitively. Have they moved on or are they still in the anger/blaming circle? Their circumstances should really be the driver of this discussion.


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 08:56 PM

Heartily agreed. And apologies for the truncation of my last post.


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Megan L
Date: 08 Jul 19 - 02:12 AM

I wonder how men of the men in here have ever made a joke that denigrates women or slapped a woman's bum or wolf whistled how many of you remember everything you did when you were stoned or drunk?


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jul 19 - 03:09 AM

"It was an era of real indiscretion and mistakes"
No it wasn't - that was the way it was and it was very deliberate
Women were allotted their place in society from birth and groomed to be home-makers and baby producers - our laws were created to consolidate this and the taught religions established this as a social norm
The vows women took in church included that they "loved, honoured and "OBEYED" their spouses
It was written into the British statute that it was legal for a husband to rape his wife in 1736 and that law was not removed until 1991
Women were officially inferior to men and wives were the property of their husbands
That situation only began to change with the Suffrage movement, which unfortunately operated mainly on behalf of the better-off - unfortunately, the Suffragettes sold out their cause by colluding to send a generation of young men to their deaths in W.W.1

Women have fought imprisonment and open contempt to change that situation and, to a degree, have been successful, but for many, they still have a long way to go
Equality of Pay and working conditions still remains a remote deram for most women
No accident - no mistake - very deliberate

For some, women remain very second-class citizens

Since when has showing your willie to kids been "a joke", I wonder
I didn't think it funny when it happened to me as a child - nor did my wife when it happened to her
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: gillymor
Date: 08 Jul 19 - 09:34 AM

Megan, you seem to have bought into the "everyone was doing it" argument. I was 17 in 1970 and certainly indulged in some of the "indiscreet" behavior that was prevalent among my peers but I never, even in an altered state, attempted to force myself on anyone, juvenile or adult and consequently never wound up in prison on a sexual assault charge.


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Jul 19 - 09:51 AM

Jim - my nan thought it hilarious when she was flashed...

That was nothing compared to being bombed by the Luftwaffe and evacuated to the wild west of England...

Your polemical history lesson is a good read,
but you are tending to over generalise in order to support your own argument...

I suspect you were never in a rock band back in the 60s and 70s...

Young women we knew were far stronger and independent than you give them credit..
Even if you suggest they were on the pill and being promiscuous
as a result of being manipulated by the dominant patriarchal hegemony..
They seemed to be having a damn good time enjoying it on their own terms...

BUT we do agree about the forgotten women, like my mum - working class, under educated,
and stuck in lousy long hours badly payed jobs;
cleaning, washing, and wiping arses in old folks retirement death camps...
They were the mass underclass who the middle class aspirational professional feminists academics and journalists
didn't seem to give give a toss about.
They were more concerned with the glamorous lifestyle
of women aping successful tory men in industry and the media, and academia..

In the late 70s and early 80s,
most of the younger feminists I knew,
who were students, musicians, artists and actresses,
they were cool and inspirational.
They shaped my personality and beliefs as I developed into manhood.
But the older middle aged feminists most prominent in the media
tended to be mostly obsessed with their own career self advancement..

Sod my mum, as far as their selfish priorities seemed to be...


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 08 Jul 19 - 09:52 AM

Bob Dylan observed in the 1960s that The Times They Are A-Changin' (first song in this 1/2 hour performance). We are discussing one of the changes that took a lot longer than it should have.

What is changing regarding women and how men treat them? #MeToo is outing men who took advantage of their positions of power over women to claim sexual advantage, whether women wanted it or not. It isn't tarring every sexual encounter—it is aimed at men who acted with impunity, not those who were already caught and punished. (#MeToo is also outing a few powerful women who preyed on young men. It's an equal opportunity movement.)

This is why the torches and pitchforks are uncalled for at this time. Festivals can choose to hire or not, as they wish, depending on the information they have, but they are refusing to hire a reformed character, not an unindicted molester.


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 08 Jul 19 - 10:57 AM

Edna O'Brien was born in 1930 at Tuamgraney, County Clare, Ireland, a place she would later describe as "fervid" and "enclosed". From 1941 to 1946 she was educated by the Sisters of Mercy – a circumstance that contributed to a "suffocating" childhood". "I rebelled against the coercive and stifling religion into which I was born and bred. It was very frightening and all pervasive. I'm glad it has gone."

Here she observes how women were treated as she grew up;
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0006pjj/imagine-2019-4-edna-obrien-fearful-and-fearless
imagine...2019: 4. Edna O'Brien: Fearful... and Fearless
Contains some strong language and some upsetting scenes.
Duration 65 mins; First shown 10:30pm 7 July 2019; Available for 29 days

Ireland has made great social advances since then.


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Mossback
Date: 08 Jul 19 - 11:20 AM

Thank you, Stilly. Wish I'd been able to sum it up as succinctly as you've done.


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Jeri
Date: 08 Jul 19 - 11:24 AM

I think it's true every potential battle defaults to one of several usual topics. Catholic priests and abuse. Racism. Folk/not folk. Ewan MacColl.

Was Ewan MacColl ever involved in a sex scandal? Was he interested in pubescent girls, or was he possibly gay. Was he ever a priest?

What other general flame war categories did I miss? (I noticed bobad made a ham-handed (anti-kosher humor not intended) attempt to troll regarding the"J" word, but that didn't last.)

If Joe wants to BS this, or close it, I agree. It stopped being about any specific subject sometime around 04 Jul 19, 01:23 PM.

Yeesh. I used to love Mudcat because of the smart people who posted here...


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: meself
Date: 08 Jul 19 - 12:01 PM

Anyone who says attitudes weren't different in the '70s wasn't paying attention or has forgotten. That doesn't necessarily excuse any given misdeed, but, as the man says, it may help explain it.

Example. Age 20 or so, I was sitting in the kitchen of a communal home with a small mixed group of slightly-older counter-culture-ish friends. One of the young women was telling us that a friend of hers, who was a high-school teacher, had spent the weekend in bed smoking dope with a couple of his female students. While no one expressed out-and-out approval, no one expressed disapproval - it was clearly regarded as 'edgy' behaviour, a case of getting one up on 'the man' by transgressing 'artificial' social taboos. There was a bit of chuckling and giggling.

There was a lot of that kind of thinking going on at that time. Again, not saying what it does or does not excuse; just giving a little context.


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: bobad
Date: 08 Jul 19 - 12:02 PM

(I noticed bobad made a ham-handed (anti-kosher humor not intended) attempt to troll regarding the"J" word, but that didn't last.)

I guess you missed the post disparaging me that I was reacting to. Somehow I'm not surprised.


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Jul 19 - 12:14 PM

Bob - no one else cares about your boring petty little feuds..

you'd be a right pain in the arse on a night out with a bunch of friends and acquaintances...


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Megan L
Date: 08 Jul 19 - 12:48 PM

Now I remember why I left the cat before I was tired of the pervasive atmosphere of bullying, people jumping on bandwagons where they are so busy listening to their own little band they ignore or attack anyone of moderate views.

Gillymor in the 70's I was fighting! Not against men but women who were trying to strip me of my freewill . I was brought up to think for myself, make my own decisions and treat each person as an individual not as a trumpet or a flag for me to fall in behind.


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jul 19 - 12:50 PM

You missed loads, Jeri. You need to think more British :-)


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: bobad
Date: 08 Jul 19 - 12:50 PM

Funny that you come after me but ignore the ones who initiate the antagonism - I wonder why that is.


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: bobad
Date: 08 Jul 19 - 12:51 PM

Previous post directed to Punkie.


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Jul 19 - 12:58 PM

bob - I don't come after you.. you present yourself up for having the piss taken..

btw.. jim, steve, bwm, dtg, dick, etc..

chaps you might insist are on the same side as me..

They can all attest that i'm not slow in criticising them if I feel there's good valid reason..

So quit with the whiny me me me persecution complex...


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: gillymor
Date: 08 Jul 19 - 01:06 PM

Megan, It was not my intention to bully anyone in my last post but I will rephrase it-

"Megan, regarding your last post, I was 17 in 1970 and certainly indulged in some of the "indiscreet" behavior that was prevalent among my peers but I never, even in an altered state, attempted to force myself on anyone, juvenile or adult and consequently never wound up in prison on a sexual assault charge."

Is that less objectionable? I'd sincerely like to know.


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: bobad
Date: 08 Jul 19 - 01:23 PM

bob - I don't come after you.

Lol, the evidence is there in black and white but.....whatever. Anyway, I've got your number now.


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Jul 19 - 01:27 PM

Bob - good, look after it in case I forget which number it is...


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Mossback
Date: 08 Jul 19 - 02:00 PM

There's really no up side to feeding the boobad, gang.


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Jul 19 - 02:02 PM

I think we've exhausted the subject. Thread closed.


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