Labour - the party of Remain

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Stanron
Date: 03 Aug 19 - 09:04 AM

Steve Shaw wrote: So if the leave agreement doesn't exist, and the backstop "existed in it", the backstop doesn't exist either.

In the same paragraph;

Steve Shaw wrote: You lot, by saying you won't accept a backstop, are in effect saying that you don't want a deal. No backstop means, one hundred percent, no deal, a dead cert.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Aug 19 - 08:23 AM

"The backstop exists in the Leave agreement. I wish it didn't."

Your wish is my command. There is no leave agreement. It has fallen off its perch and gone to join the choir invisible. It is an ex-leave agreement. In fact, it was never an agreement at all. An agreement needs both sides to sit down and sign on the dotted line. It never happened. So if the leave agreement doesn't exist, and the backstop "existed in it", the backstop doesn't exist either. And the groovy thing about the backstop is that it probably would never come into play even if we did leave with a deal. We'd have time to settle our trading arrangements with the EU without the need for it. But you lot don't want that. The Tory hardliners have even said that they won't vote for a deal even without a backstop in it. As for me, I want revocation. That's the only thing that can ever be of any use to this country, to Ireland and to the EU. You lot, by saying you won't accept a backstop, are in effect saying that you don't want a deal. No backstop means, one hundred percent, no deal, a dead cert. But you're not honest enough to come out and say it.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Aug 19 - 03:55 AM

'Northern' Ireland is a hangover of colonial times and has continued to exist only because of the deliberate creation of an imbalanced sectarian state.
It was not created in order to keep peace between the two communities; on the contrary, it was structured for Britain's benefit to keep the two sides at each other's throat and leave the state in 'safe' the hands of a dominant Protestant majority
The North's history is one of sectarian conflict - inor for re-unification, which was long put on the back-burner, but for Civil Rights - that never changed and it burst into flames in the late 1960s with the Civil Rights Marches being broken up by stone-throwing Unionists assisted by the RUC and eventually, the British Army.

That Northern Ireland should be "given a Referendum' is horribly colonial and patronising, I'm afraid
Ireland should never have been divided in the first place - even the 'Free Staters' agreed to it happening only on the basis that it was a temporary measure - the only reason it remained divided is that Britain backed an aggressively sectarian section of the Northern Ireland Establishment to keep it so.
The 'ordinary' people would almost certainly have been happy to see re-unification long ago - it would have been far more convenient for their daily lives to have done so.

Dividing Ireland has always been a perfect example of the old tactic of divide and rule - the secret lies in the name - Northern IRELAND. - the people of the North are as Irish as those of the South
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Aug 19 - 03:29 AM

300

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Aug 19 - 01:56 AM

I am aware, by the way, that the phrase "we should allow a referendum" sounds horribly colonial. However, that is the way the Good Friday Agreement says a referendum is initiated: the UK Secretary of State formally calls for one.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Aug 19 - 01:40 AM

Very shortly after the referendum I said we should allow a referendum in Northern Ireland on the question of reunification. They might - in fact at the time they probably would - have voted to stay as they are, so we would not have resolved anything. But had they voted for reunification many of the more troublesome parts of the negotiations would have been resolved. At the time, the Leavers were believed to be strongly in support of the preservation of the U.K. as is: after all, that seemed to be what the referendum was about, in many respects. It was literally years later that polls of the leavers indicated many would be prepared to lose the Union of the UK as long as they left from the EU.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 02 Aug 19 - 08:21 PM

As good a time as any to get rid of the nuisance of N. Ireland...

Disproportionately far more trouble than it's worth...

Let's put that to referendum...???

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Stanron
Date: 02 Aug 19 - 08:00 PM

The backstop exists in the Leave agreement. I wish it didn't. Martin said to his man ....

Nighty night.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Aug 19 - 07:57 PM

And for a man of your age you go to bed far too late. I'm off. Nighty night.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Aug 19 - 07:56 PM

Don't call me stupid. There is no backstop. In words of one syllable (here we go,..), there will be a back stop if we leave WITH a deal but not hav ing ach ieved a trade deal at the end of a trans it ion per i od. We can leave the EU, with a trans it ion per i od, with a deal, with no back stop. No deal? No back stop. Are you there on this yet?

Anything else you'd like explaining, give me a shout. I do find this one-syllable stuff somewhat vexatious though. Some of us passed an exam or two...

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Stanron
Date: 02 Aug 19 - 07:45 PM

Steve Shaw wrote: Your understanding is hazy (as ever). The backstop is no more than a proposal at the moment and is not in any way in force. It's to do with our leaving with a deal, nothing else. The backstop keeps Northern Ireland in the customs union in the event of the lack of a trade agreement with the EU. It comes into force only if we can't strike a trade deal at the end of the transition period. We get a transition period only if we leave with a deal, not otherwise. Do feel free to ask any of us, bar Iains, for further explanation.

What a stupid answer. Because of the backstop, admittedly a concept rather than ratified law, the UK is set on a path of leaving the EU without a deal. Without the Backstop we could leave the EU with a deal. The difference is considerable. How can something that can result in a considerable difference not exist?

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Aug 19 - 07:10 PM

Your understanding is hazy (as ever). The backstop is no more than a proposal at the moment and is not in any way in force. It's to do with our leaving with a deal, nothing else. The backstop keeps Northern Ireland in the customs union in the event of the lack of a trade agreement with the EU. It comes into force only if we can't strike a trade deal at the end of the transition period. We get a transition period only if we leave with a deal, not otherwise. Do feel free to ask any of us, bar Iains, for further explanation.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Stanron
Date: 02 Aug 19 - 06:55 PM

Steve Shaw wrote: "Colin Murphy argued the backstop has 'been a disaster for Ireland'"

Did he really. Perhaps someone should tell him that we haven't had a backstop. What a daft thing to post here.

You can't argue that the backstop does not exist because the legislation has not been passed. The legislation has not been passed because of the Backstop. The Leave Agreement has failed in Parliament, three times, because the backstop is there. Without the Backstop we could have ratified the agreement.

It's a bit like dark energy. You can't actually see it but it's effects are obvious for those wise enough to see it..

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Aug 19 - 06:01 PM

"Colin Murphy argued the backstop has 'been a disaster for Ireland'"

Did he really. Perhaps someone should tell him that we haven't had a backstop. What a daft thing to post here.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Aug 19 - 04:56 PM

Totally off-topic, inexcusably so, but I'm posting this anyway. The England captain Joe Root was bowled out today in the first Ashes test by the Aussie bowler James Pattinson. Unfortunately for the latter, the bails didn't fall off and Root survived. This has caused nothing less than an international incident. But I'll tell you summat. While this particular fury rages, there'll be no brexit, no world wars, no Boris and no Trump. Treat yourself to a laugh-out-loud few minutes and read the comments after the Guardian report, "Joe Root’s lucky escape was far from freakish – bails law needs a rethink." I've been sitting here reading them for the last half hour and all my troubles have drifted away...

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Aug 19 - 03:50 PM

Probably - if we take the advice of the Mods and "ignore the troll"

I shall remind you of that when you next respond to him (or them), Jim :-)

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 02 Aug 19 - 03:18 PM

Funny how everbody not on the tory hard right are 'liabilities'.. and 'traitors'...???

funny that...????

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Iains
Date: 02 Aug 19 - 03:05 PM

The Irish commentariat are increasingly questioning Varadkar’s approach. Over the weekend Business Post columnist Colin Murphy argued the backstop has “been a disaster for Ireland”, Dan O’Brien, Chief Economist at the Institute of International and European Affairs, warns that the “first duty of those who oppose tribalism is to acknowledge the tribalism of one’s own side”, while Eoghan Harris blasts:

    “Unless we bin out fraudulent backstop, Boris Johnson will crash out of the EU, leaving our economy in ruins and our relations with England, our nearest neighbour, in rag order”.

Leo the lion is fast becoming a liability.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Aug 19 - 02:49 PM

"We can discuss brexit here. Why not."
Probably - if we take the advice of the Mods and "ignore the troll"
If they recognise him for what he is we damn well should be able to
Onwards and upwards
Jim

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Aug 19 - 02:16 PM

We can discuss brexit here. Why not.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Aug 19 - 02:10 PM

I see he has managed to get the brexit thread closed. Which I suspect was part of his instructions. If only people would stop dancing to his tune life on mudcat would be much sweeter.

---

One can hold one's nose and wade into that quagmire only so many times.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Aug 19 - 12:51 PM

TORY PANIC_MONGERS
More good news - gets better and better
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 02 Aug 19 - 12:27 PM

"Government plans for all kinds of contingencies"

= BILLIONS of taxpayers cash wasted ending up in the pockets of tory supporting parasitic businesses...

"Hey chaps, let's create a massive potential problem,
so we can syphon off vast amounts of public money while we give the impresssion
we are fixing it...
Yes.. of course we'll blame Labour for causing this problem...!!!"...

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Iains
Date: 02 Aug 19 - 12:18 PM

More project fear on steroids. Government plans for all kinds of contingencies. It is only in the good book that it shall come to pass.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Aug 19 - 11:07 AM

Nigel will undoubtedly be along to say that says it COULD happen, not that it WiLL happen in the event of a no-deal.

As if that is enough to say it won't, or is very unlikely. It is likely enough the government us preparing for it, it seems, though I expect that to be ignored.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Aug 19 - 11:00 AM

An unpublished Government document has revealed that within 24 hours of Britain crashing out of Europe all agricultural trade across the border will cease, causing food shortages, businesses to crash and a security threat within two weeks.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/no-deal-brexit-could-virtually-stop-some-trade-in-north-within-24-hours-leaked-memo-says-1.3974666

Special measures are being put into plce to prevent civil disorder.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Aug 19 - 01:56 AM

Reducing the Tory majority - and of course it is really further reducing the Tory minority - is the big story, without a doubt, but if they were convinced they would lose it anyway, putting up the guy who was forced to step down was quite a good way of confusing the story. The seat has been LibDem or Tory for a long time, so a Libdem win can be presented as unexceptional. Figuring out the blend of a normal change, local issues, Brexit, Boris, Labour losses (as opposed to votes loaned to LibDem), assertion that the guy who was rejected had to go ... Very hard to isolate how much is due to what.

I am slightly disappointed in the Monster Raving Loony Party - they were not quite Raving and Loony enough, so let UKIP get the most loony position.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Aug 19 - 11:12 PM

Morning after Brecon.. tory majority down to 1...

Predictably tory propagandists will be ramping up the attack on Labour in response...

But, will do or die Boris be reading up on harakiri...???

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Aug 19 - 04:05 PM

As I said, chaps, Iains doesn't ever respond to any challenges put to him. That isn't what he's programmed to do. He's an apparatchik of some far-right group. He'll insult back all right, but his direction of travel, his raison d'être, is perfectly transparent. He isn't here to debate. He's here to to further a far-right agenda. Unfortunately for him, he is by turns ridiculous and totally inconsistent. See him for what he is and let's call him out.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Aug 19 - 12:08 PM

btw.. there's internet chatter about the safety of the site that image is posted on..

It doesn't seem the sort of place or discussion groups yer average old silver surfer British bloke would
even knew existed...



But Iains does...?????

funny that...

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Aug 19 - 11:49 AM

Iains - "wot a terrifficllly wity cartune pictcher.. the funnieest ever I seen...
thats Corbin laber that is haha lol"

That's me mimicking the average right wing response your hilarious post would get on the sort of forums you'd feel more at home in..

However, here's a random news headline.. and it's even from a prominent tory bumrag..

"Sheep are far smarter than previously thought - Telegraph"

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 12:39 PM

"....Tories don't care about ordinary people."
https://www.politicshome.coSO HE DID
Jim

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 12:30 PM

And that same right-hand man confirmed in a speech a couple of years ago that it's true that Tories don't care about ordinary people.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 04:35 AM

Interesting report in The Times this morning
Nigel Farage has said that Johnson’s right-hand man on Brexit is not to be trusted as he “is not a true believer”
Hallelujah !
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 03:15 AM

A very good piece from Opendemocracy.net here about the accusations of antisemitism being levelled against the LP. It’s a long read, but it raises some very important points.

I would recommend our Right-Wing Extremist Tommy Robinson Fanboy (who seems to have gone walkabout) to read it - assuming he has the attention-span, which is by no means a certainty.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: peteglasgow
Date: 30 Jul 19 - 03:47 PM

i was at a constituency labour party meeting last week (about 50 people there) i mentioned that in a lifetime in the union and maybe 25 years in the labour party, i had never encountered any anti-semitism, though plenty of opposition to the israeli government and support for the palestinians. however, recently i have seen a lot of anti-labour behaviour by supposed labour party members. i was wondering what action would be taken against these members. our mp explained that there are 2 reasons - 1. jeremy corbyn can be too much of a nice guy and 2. these people would be likely to resort to appeals and court action to defend their membership of a party that they they feel they have the right to criticise whenever possible. our meeting agreed - there was no debate about these points just anger at the prominent labour mps who are more interested in attacking labour rather than the tories. can we use the word b..tards on here?

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jul 19 - 01:31 PM

Maybe we can give him a medal for his services to racism and homophobia now he has declared himself exponents of both
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Jul 19 - 01:05 PM

The only value I could see Iains having to his propaganda unit masters,
is by allowing them to harvest our responses to his blatant nonsense...???

Maybe by testing and trying to provoke us here in insignificant little mudcat,
they are working out counter tactics
that can be deployed in far more important social media sites...???

Like I said, the only conceivable value he might have to them is as far fetched a conspiracy plot
as that...

Or he's just so useless he's been banished here to keep him out their way until he retires from active service...

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jul 19 - 12:44 PM

"And that’s as good a summary as any of the reasons to ignore "
About right I think, especially just after the pubs stop serving
It's noticeable that even his Tory friends don't even wish to have anything to do with him - who's to blame them
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jul 19 - 12:36 PM

"LETTERBOX" and "BANK ROBBER" PRIME MINISTER

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Jul 19 - 12:34 PM

And that’s as good a summary as any of the reasons to ignore the Cupid Stunt.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jul 19 - 12:31 PM

Iains is a plant. There is nothing independent about his formulaic approach on this forum. I'm a member of the Labour Party and a trade union. Y'all know that, y'all know where I live, what music I like to play and listen to and even what I like to eat and drink, etc., and my postings here are made in that open and honest context. Most of the decent people here, including those who choose to post under a soubriquet, have given the rest of us some context as to who they are and where they're coming from. Not him. We don't know where Iains is coming from, but the pattern in his posts confirms that he is part of some grouping whose primary objective is to undermine Jeremy Corbyn via propaganda and unsupported accusations, not to speak of sneery personal remarks, completely uncalled for, about who is actually a dignified man, far more so than Iains, that's clear enough. I suspect that, in spite of his alleged great age (even though he posts like a brainless and immature yah-boo teenager in a hoodie), he is a junior member of his cabal who is told what to post. At least his mentor Staines manages to stay focussed for a minute or two He never directly responds to challenges to his points, merely moving on to his next mini-obsession and next tirade of insults. That's because he can't respond. He's not programmed to do that. He's a typical propagandist-only. It would be all very sinister if he wasn't so daft.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jul 19 - 12:29 PM

HOW THE TORIES HANDLE RACISM AND BIGOTRY
AND AGAIN
TORY COUNCIL, TRAGEDY AND RACISM
"GO BACK TO WHERE YOU CAME FROM" TORYISM

Who'd vote for a bunch of Klansmen like this squalid lot
Jim Caarroll

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Iains
Date: 30 Jul 19 - 12:15 PM

I did not realise Labour had an Islamic problem as well. You must enlighten me! Does that make it full house?

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Jul 19 - 12:07 PM

Presumably the same kind of person who would vote for someone who describes black people as ‘piccaninnies with watermelon smiles’, and Muslim women wearing the Burqa as ‘letterboxes’.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Iains
Date: 30 Jul 19 - 12:04 PM

Not only antisemitic but also racist against people of colour. It never ends:
The Labour Lord Mayor of Liverpool has resigned after sharing a racist video comparing a black person to a monkey.

Absolutely disgusting behaviour! Who on earth would vote for such a party?


https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-merseyside-49162644

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Jul 19 - 11:06 AM

That despicable bitter vengeful Margaret Hodge makes me seethe whenever I see her on TV...

So... my problem as a part-jewish labour voter,
who is angered and not afraid to speak out
against all the relentless malicious false accusations against Corbyn and the party,
is that it makes me both an antisemite and a self loathing jew at the same time..

I'm not sure my body and mind can cope with that much strange contradictory inner conflict and tension...!!!???

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 30 Jul 19 - 10:25 AM

Now if somebody were to say to a Jewish MP, "go back to the shithole country you come from", that would be antisemitic. But I havn't heard it.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Jul 19 - 10:23 AM

It would be very interesting to hear the details of some of these accusations. So far, all we’ve heard is that some people’s feelings have been hurt - no details of precisely how they were hurt, just wish-washy, broad-brush , “Oh, I’ve been subject to antisemitism dozens of times every day” kind of stuff, but with no substance whatsoever to support the claims.

And anybody who was taken in by those two shifty-eyed, ‘Friends of Israel’ characters in the piece with Victoria Derbyshire must surely believe in fairies at the bottom of the garden. No substance, no explanations, no detail to what they were claiming - just airy-fairy generalisations from two very sheepish-looking accusers.

If Jewish members of the LP are being subjected to anti-semitism by other members, let’s hear the details, and get the offenders weeded out. But without the kind of detailed explanations that would support a case were it to be reported to the police, it’s very difficult to believe it’s anything more than mischief-making by enemies of the current leadership.

Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Jul 19 - 10:18 AM

This whole issue has nothing to do with thee Jewish People - everything to do with BDS
Some of the fiercest critics of the Israeli regime are Jews (go see The Gatekeepers' documentary to witness a ex-Mossad director comparing some aspects of modern Israel with Nazism)
Rather than describe them as anti-semitic the regime has labelled them "self loathing Jews"
There's a dictionary term for politicians who place themselves above te people they represent
A FRIEND OF ISRAEL
AN ENEMY
Jim Carroll