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Labour - the party of Remain

Big Al Whittle 10 Jul 19 - 02:36 AM
Big Al Whittle 10 Jul 19 - 02:36 AM
Iains 10 Jul 19 - 02:46 AM
punkfolkrocker 10 Jul 19 - 03:00 AM
punkfolkrocker 10 Jul 19 - 03:15 AM
Dave the Gnome 10 Jul 19 - 11:11 AM
punkfolkrocker 10 Jul 19 - 11:33 AM
Steve Shaw 10 Jul 19 - 11:43 AM
Iains 10 Jul 19 - 02:31 PM
Big Al Whittle 10 Jul 19 - 02:54 PM
David Carter (UK) 10 Jul 19 - 03:00 PM
punkfolkrocker 10 Jul 19 - 03:17 PM
Big Al Whittle 10 Jul 19 - 04:39 PM
Steve Shaw 10 Jul 19 - 05:20 PM
Big Al Whittle 10 Jul 19 - 06:10 PM
Black belt caterpillar wrestler 10 Jul 19 - 07:01 PM
Steve Shaw 10 Jul 19 - 07:05 PM
punkfolkrocker 10 Jul 19 - 07:32 PM
Big Al Whittle 10 Jul 19 - 07:39 PM
punkfolkrocker 10 Jul 19 - 07:42 PM
Big Al Whittle 10 Jul 19 - 07:49 PM
Big Al Whittle 10 Jul 19 - 07:49 PM
punkfolkrocker 10 Jul 19 - 08:02 PM
punkfolkrocker 10 Jul 19 - 08:06 PM
punkfolkrocker 10 Jul 19 - 08:11 PM
Big Al Whittle 11 Jul 19 - 12:25 AM
Backwoodsman 11 Jul 19 - 02:16 AM
Dave the Gnome 11 Jul 19 - 02:34 AM
David Carter (UK) 11 Jul 19 - 02:46 AM
Big Al Whittle 11 Jul 19 - 04:31 AM
Mr Red 11 Jul 19 - 05:26 AM
Iains 11 Jul 19 - 05:32 AM
David Carter (UK) 11 Jul 19 - 05:48 AM
Backwoodsman 11 Jul 19 - 07:11 AM
punkfolkrocker 11 Jul 19 - 10:47 AM
Big Al Whittle 11 Jul 19 - 12:37 PM
Dave the Gnome 11 Jul 19 - 01:07 PM
punkfolkrocker 11 Jul 19 - 01:08 PM
punkfolkrocker 11 Jul 19 - 01:25 PM
Dave the Gnome 11 Jul 19 - 01:32 PM
punkfolkrocker 11 Jul 19 - 01:38 PM
Mr Red 11 Jul 19 - 01:44 PM
Backwoodsman 11 Jul 19 - 02:16 PM
Backwoodsman 11 Jul 19 - 02:19 PM
Iains 12 Jul 19 - 04:32 AM
punkfolkrocker 12 Jul 19 - 06:41 AM
Big Al Whittle 12 Jul 19 - 07:10 AM
punkfolkrocker 12 Jul 19 - 07:32 AM
Big Al Whittle 12 Jul 19 - 07:35 AM
bobad 12 Jul 19 - 07:48 AM
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Subject: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 02:36 AM

breathtaking....still its going to please some


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Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 02:36 AM

sorry should be in BS


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Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Iains
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 02:46 AM

I will await it's repositioning before commenting.


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Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 03:00 AM

Labour - the party of trying to get the tories out of power,
even if difficult political decisions and compromises must be reluctantly made along the way
in order to prioritise achieving that primary objective...


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Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 03:15 AM

to be continued in a BS/General Discussion Thread...

In the meantime, anyone else dealing with an infestation of flying ants inside their home..
Those annoying little buggers have got no respect for any of us,
leavers or remainers..
It's difficult working out what exactly are the politics of an ant colony..
Are they predominantly leftwing or rightwing - they've got both...


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Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 11:11 AM

My lad had an infestation in his bathroom a couple of weeks back. Ants that is. Not politicians.


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Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 11:33 AM

Yeah.. it's our bathroom too.
Weird thing is this year "flying ant day" for us has been going on for over a week so far.
Every afternoon they start crawling out from somewhere behind the bath...

Which means I can pick them up and build a raft of floating ants in the bog to use for target practise...


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Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 11:43 AM

It's horseflies here. Bad year for 'em. But we're having phenomenal weather. Sunny every day in July, bone dry so far and just 5mm rain in the last three weeks. Cutting the grass is a thing of the past. Still, this time next year we'll be a third world basket case, so I'm making the most of it.


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Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Iains
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 02:31 PM

Why the distraction lads? I guess Corbyn must have an arse fullof splinters by now he has spun so much on that fence. His heartlands are all off to join the brexit party shortly. Panorama is about to give him a roasting tonight. The Labour whistleblowers are accusing two of Corbyn’s closest allies of interfering in Labour’s disciplinary processes around anti-Semitism – Labour General Secretary Jennie Formby and Corbyn’s right-hand man Seumas Milne. The Leader’s Office is accused of being “angry and obstructive” over anti-Semitism amidst numerous other allegations including Formby bringing in officials who “overruled” and “downgraded” disciplinary decisions, while deleting emails and using external email addresses to try to cover her tracks, and Corbyn’s office taking in various cases for his own aides to process them directly. Labour are sticking to the line that these are false allegations from “disaffected” former members of staff. Now it’s Momentum founder Jon Lansman who’s been wheeled out to make an extraordinary allegation against the whistleblowers, suggesting that they deliberately sabotaged Labour’s attempts to tackle anti-Semitism in order to make Corbyn look bad. Looks pretty defamatory if he doesn’t have any proof:
Fresh from threatening their whistleblowers over the weekend with heavy-handed legal letters from the attack dogs at Carter Ruck, Labour have responded in a similarly measured fashion to their three peers who resigned in protest at Labour’s “institutional anti-Semitism”. Labour have opted to go strongly on the attack, saying “we completely reject these false and offensive claims”.
Some suspect that going aggressively after two Jewish peers who’ve just resigned from the party over it no longer being “a safe political environment for Jewish people or other opponents of anti-Semitism” is probably not going to down as well as Labour think it is.
Looks a real dog and pony show I wonder what labour intend to spin tomorrow to draw some of the heat?


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Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 02:54 PM

Well on the surface at least - it looks like game set and match to the remainers.


Let's hope what happens next is to their entire satisfaction.


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Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 03:00 PM

Well, if it results in us remaining, it will be entirely to my satisfaction.


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Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 03:17 PM

There are too many fanatical political and religious factions who are desperate prevent a labour govt
by any dirty tricks they can...


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Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 04:39 PM

'There are too many fanatical political and religious factions who are desperate prevent a labour govt
by any dirty tricks they can...'

which does savour of getting in the excuses early. what about all the huge swathes of population who have seen the light - now that they are fully informed, rather than being cruelly misled?


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Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 05:20 PM

Well the biggest dirty trick of all time has just been perpetrated by the BBC in tonight's Panorama. An anti-Corbynista third-rate reporter "interviews" (aka does his nodding-dog act) in front of a litany of disaffected ex-Blairites. Not a single one was asked to substantiate a single accusation or give any details of their supposed abuse. Not ONE. And we were treated at the end to tear-jerking accounts of "breakdowns," "didn't know what to do with myself" and threatened suicide attempts. Not one question asked of any of these accusers. Not a single challenge. And we had repeated dark footage of sinister-looking Labour HQs and deliberately grainy and greyed-out footage of Corbyn. It was the Sun Page Three but without the tits. Yeah, knob-ends a-plenty but without the tits. A disgrace, and the lowest of low ebbs of the Beeb. What a shocker.


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Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 06:10 PM

yes and it was done on a day ending with a 'y', a typical shabby nazi trick perpetrated by the traditional enemies of upright decent Jeremy, who always plays a straight bat...

infamy! infamy!


Just to re-cap for those of you with a slim purchase on reality.

Jeremy Corbyn has abadoned representing the millions of people who voted leave, The majority of these live in northern English constituencies where English manufacturing was based. In a way this is a re-allignment of the Labour Party - an admission that Thatcher and her monetarist policies were in essence correct - and (as BWM) and others on mudcat have intimated English manufacturing was not worth preserving. If England can afford to go on paying itself and anyone else who fancies living here - for producing nothing very much - real estate and finiancial services, you will now have the opportunity to prove.

Simultaneously with this Blairite members of the party and MP's ( the last Labour MP's to win an election) are being edged out of the party.

This is the biggest and most decisive move, I can recall in this political party's history.

I think maybe those who have promoted and argued for this should take ownership, and stop casting themselves as victims.


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Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 07:01 PM

So we now have one party for Brexit and four against. So if there is a general election the remain vote is split four ways.

Robin


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Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 07:05 PM

You didn't watch it, did you, Al.


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Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 07:32 PM

Al - as long as you'll be happier coping to live your last years under a perpetual tory,
or perhaps even Farage/Robinson, government..

Yeah, it'll be a terrific lifestyle of luxury for the Great British elderly and disabled...

whoopee.. bring it on...


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Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 07:39 PM

watch what...the John Major thing. No I didn't see it. Find me a link that works and I will. Though how the bugger who took us into the ERM can claim to have superior insight, I just don't see why you would trust him.

If you made that dimension of mistake , costing the country that much...you'd be damn lucky to escape without a prison sentence in any other walk of life.


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Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 07:42 PM

Al - Major, boris, Chunt, they are all tories...

But Major is now older and wiser, and possibly the lesser of those 3 evils...


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Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 07:49 PM

"Al - as long as you'll be happier coping to live your last years under a perpetual tory,
or perhaps even Farage/Robinson, government..

Yeah, it'll be a terrific lifestyle of luxury for the Great British elderly and disabled...

whoopee.. bring it on...'

that's my point - Good old Jeremy has just discarded the traditional Labour vote, and the party mre-election machinery. Presumably to keep in with the five quid trots and the Have I Got News For You gang. Get down with the kids etc., but don't ask us to vote while GFlastpbury is on, or the college bar open.

You have just made one of those moves (like electing Michael Foot and unilateralist Neil KInnock as party leaders) that will ensure tory victory. And yes it will be the poor and disabled who pick up the bill.

whoopee indeed


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Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 07:49 PM

"Al - as long as you'll be happier coping to live your last years under a perpetual tory,
or perhaps even Farage/Robinson, government..

Yeah, it'll be a terrific lifestyle of luxury for the Great British elderly and disabled...

whoopee.. bring it on...'

that's my point - Good old Jeremy has just discarded the traditional Labour vote, and the party mre-election machinery. Presumably to keep in with the five quid trots and the Have I Got News For You gang. Get down with the kids etc., but don't ask us to vote while GFlastpbury is on, or the college bar open.

You have just made one of those moves (like electing Michael Foot and unilateralist Neil KInnock as party leaders) that will ensure tory victory. And yes it will be the poor and disabled who pick up the bill.

whoopee indeed


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Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 08:02 PM

Al - just a reminder.. I've never been a member of the labour party,
and I'm not a corbanite..

AS far as I'm concerned, he's just an older bloke keeping the seat warm for a younger more acceptable successor..

Hopefully, a leader with less historic baggage the hard right and their media channels can demonise..

But even if Christ himself came back and lead the labour party,
the tories, and even harder right, would dig up/make up dirt to discredit him..


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Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 08:06 PM

Oops.. I shouldn't presume christ comes back as a fella..

just in case the 2nd coming is as a lady next time..

like Dr Who...


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Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Jul 19 - 08:11 PM

Al - btw.. you seem to have in recent months, increasingly gone all ukip in your ideas and the way you express them...???

I'm concerned all the ex labour voting working class who'll actively vote for brexit party or ukip,
have a consideration for the potential reality under a govt lead by one of 'em,
or both in coalition...

.. and folks used to say that the liberals mean well, but would be inexperienced and clueless how to run the country..


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Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 12:25 AM

I'd never vote UKIP or tory or NF, or whatever the buggers are calling themselves this week.

Why concern yourself with whom they might vote for.

THe whole bloody point is that the smartarses have been abusing and insulting the point of view held earnestly and seriously by traditional Labour voters for months. THat it is a serious point of view is just beyond the imagining of the parlour leftists, here on mudcat.

THere can be few more vociferous supporters of REmain than Tony Blair - but see all the abuse heaped on 'the Blairite faction'. Basically the faction you guys have been supporting just hate the idea of Labour in office because of the responsibilities it will bring. Its more fun to dick around.

Here in the southwest - I notice that the latest consignment of police cars are Skoda. The company that dropped bombs on all those northern cities where the Leave Labour vote was concentrated. Do you really think we voted for Skoda police cars back in 1974.


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Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 02:16 AM

”...and (as BWM) and others on mudcat have intimated English manufacturing was not worth preserving. If England can afford to go on paying itself and anyone else who fancies living here - for producing nothing very much - real estate and finiancial services, you will now have the opportunity to prove.”

Al, I’m very happy for you to disagree with my opinions, that’s what a forum like this is for, but I will not accept you telling bare-faced lies about me. I have never, at any time said that ‘English (sic) manufacturing was not worth preserving’. As someone who worked in ‘English (sic) manufacturing’ and a union-member all that time, the idea is complete anathema to me.

I have said, on a number of occasions, that the demise of UK manufacturing was the result of a combination of bad management, complacency - the idea that ‘everybody on earth wants our stuff at any price’, under-investment, poor industrial relations, and the ideology of the Thatcherite Tories who wanted to weaken the power of the unions by increasing unemployment. How you got from that to your claim that I said that ‘English (sic) manufacturing was not worth saving’ is beyond me.

So, if you wish to continue with your assertion that I’ve said that ‘English (sic) manufacturing was not worth saving’, let’s see your evidence.

Put up or shut up.


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Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 02:34 AM

Good old Jeremy has just discarded the traditional Labour vote

As I have pointed out elsewhere, Al, Labour voters were 65% remain. How can saying that you will give them a say in what the Tory party have inflicted on them be discarding their vote?

Steve was talking about the Panorama documentary BTW. That chip on your shoulder seems to be affecting your powers of reason.


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Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 02:46 AM

Traditional Labour voters and the working class are not the same thing. Never have been, though in recent years, certainly since the 80s, that divide has increased. Labour voters, as has been repeated over and over again, are overwhelmingly pro remain. You seem to be confusing them with Tory and UKIP voters in traditional Labour areas. Such people have always existed, they backed Mosley, they backed Powell.


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Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 04:31 AM

Well sorry BWM - no dishonety was intended.

if ' bad management, complacency - the idea that ‘everybody on earth wants our stuff at any price’, under-investment, poor industrial relations,' was the whole story then I think it was a fair assessment on your part that it wasn't worth saving. I assumed (obviously wrongly) that this is what you thought.

I apologise unreservedly.

Perhaps I owe an apology to Corbyn as well. I assumed this was what he was thinking.

I presumed he was thinking - Northern working men, what a gang of losers. Might as well kick them to the kerb, and get on with my new mates...yippeee!! goverment grants for all bhangra lesbian morris dancers!


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Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Mr Red
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 05:26 AM

I guess Corbyn must have an arse fullof splinters by now he has spun so much on that fence.

cf Turncoats in blue?

Let's face it. Modern politicians will tell people anything they think will get them the top job. And changing ones mind start very, very close at home! Though mind is a little exaggeration, ne c'est pas?

Come back Disraeli - all is forgiven.


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Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Iains
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 05:32 AM

As I have pointed out elsewhere, Al, Labour voters were 65% remain.
Another sweeping statement- with no supporting link.
However the reality is that this is a meaningless figure. Let us look at it in a rational manner and rephrase the results to a meaningful statement. i.e. bums on seats!
406 constituencies voted to leave, 242 voted to remain in the EU referendum.
Around 75% of constituencies that were won by the Conservatives in the 2017 general election voted to Leave, while around 61% of Labour constituencies voted to Leave.
You may wish to play games by including the babes in arms or recently departed but the only meaningful figures are those that won the seat in the various constituencies. Using your arguments UKIP would have won many Parliamentary seats in the not so distant past.


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Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 05:48 AM

Big Al, if you want to determine whether it was worth saving, ultimately it is whether the product is worth having. In many cases the product was poor and uncompetitive. You can analyse why, but by the time it had deteriorated to the extent it had, it was a bit late.


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Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 07:11 AM

"if ' bad management, complacency - the idea that 'everybody on earth wants our stuff at any price', under-investment, poor industrial relations,' was the whole story then I think it was a fair assessment on your part that it wasn't worth saving."

What don't you understand about "I will not tolerate you telling bare-faced lies about me"?

I never, at any point suggested it 'wasn't worth saving' - that's a concept introduced by you and whilst it may be a part of your views on the demise of UK manufacturing, it's not mine.

The point I've made all along is that UK manufacturing's downfall was due to a complicated mix of factors, mostly of our own making, and that your seeking to dump the blame on the EU is a gross over-simplification of a very complex problem.

Now, stop telling lies about me, and GTFU.


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Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 10:47 AM

For many years the only working class tory I'd ever heard of by name was Alf Garnett...

Most of my friends and family are Labour voters.. and as far as I know not one of 'em voted leave...

My old mates over in Bridgwater, an oasis of Labour activism in the tory desert of Somerset..
they are extremely proud of their continuing historic cultural and business twinning links
with Europe...

https://www.bridgwatermercury.co.uk/news/17763484.week-events-celebrate-twinning-bridgwater/


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Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 12:37 PM

'In many cases the product was poor and uncompetitive. You can analyse why, but by the time it had deteriorated to the extent it had, it was a bit late.'

whereas Skoda, Renault, Fiat were making real quality products . ho hum. THe difference is that the EEC has squeezed our businesses out of existence. They continue to thrive.

Your recollection of the British industrial scene are so much at variance with the facts BWM, that I assumed it was merely your biassed point of view. And I don't see much to change my opinion.

Most factories in the Notts Derby - hosiery, textile, engineering - had a well motivated workforce that did their damndest to support their managements. And their products like Charnos tights and Viyella shirts were market leaders.

Why you guys hate the English working class so much, I don't know. Obviously you think the economy of the country will be fine without them. Lets hope you're right.

It looks as though we are about to find out.


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Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 01:07 PM

Skoda, Renault and Fiat for all their faults were competitive. Something that British Leyland or whatever it was called at the time never were. And I am English working class. Have worked for the last 49.5 years without a break and retired last Friday. Can you tell me where to collect my rose coloured glasses or are those reserved for "performers, songwriters and teachers of guitar". Hardly a working class CV.

Iains. I have had enough of addressing numpties for one day. I think I will do something more productive like counting clouds or pushing sand up my nose. But as a final act of care in the community I will point out that
1) The thread was started on the premise that the Labour party is letting down its voters. They are doing no such thing as the survey points out.
2) If you believe the survey is inaccurate, point us to a better indicator and
3) There is no such thing as a naughty step. Posts deemed inappropriate are deleted. But you know that don't you.


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Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 01:08 PM

"Why you guys hate the English working class so much, "

Al - mate, I can't let that go unchallenged..

You are now tipping over the edge into talking inflammatory bollocks

[maybe it's the july heat and excess perspiration - baggy cotton boxers will help prevent bollock inflammations...]

I grew up on a west country council estate,
my dad was a factory shop steward until thatcher,
and the sudden closure of that factory which was the main employer for our estate..

I'm constantly arguing that the next labour leader needs to be real grass roots,
not another smarmy ex public school & oxbridge posh rich boy/girl...

Labour needs to address why traditional working class voters can no longer identify with their own historic party...
But of course they are tied up in other more pressing problems
imposed on the party leadership by external and internal enemies...


The tories/farrage/brexit/ukip are are only beneficiaries...


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Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 01:25 PM

Al - you seem to see brexit as some kind of panacea.
A lot of us aren't so convinced..

If it happens I hope you are right...

But however it works out, such talk as yours,
prioritising that one issue over all others,
will do irreparable harm to the only party committed to genuinely improving life
for whatever is now defined as the 'working classes'...


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Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 01:32 PM

Spot on PFR. I was born in Salford in a 2 up 2 down with no bathroom. When they pulled it down they moved us into a council house and there I stayed until I got married and was lucky enough to buy another 2 up 2 down in Salford. But this one had a bathroom. My Dad, a Polish immigrant, was a painter and decorator and at the times there was no work went labouring. My Mum was a shop girl when they married but gave it up when I was born. I have been lucky enough to do office work all my life, but it always was just paid work and I have therefore always been working class. I have never had any pretentions to be an artist or performer. Just a drone! I have no idea where Al has got the idea that we are all middle class when he is the one who has his own website to sell his services as a musician. What, with that chip on his shoulder and those rose coloured specs it is a wonder he ever gets to any gigs.


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Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 01:38 PM

Iains - why do you bother...???

your sort of contributions will go down much better
preaching to the converted on far right youtube channels, etc..
But most of us just laugh you off as a ludicrous stereotype...

I acknowledge that occasionally you can talk sense,
and present uncomfortable truths
for some of the most stubborn labour supporters..

But, most of the time you're like listening to someone with chronic flatulence sat on a squeaky chair...


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Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Mr Red
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 01:44 PM

Around 75% of constituencies that were won by the Conservatives in the 2017 general election voted to Leave, while around 61% of Labour constituencies voted to Leave.

and what percentage, pray, understand statistics?

On a simplistic calculation from those figures somewhere like 68% voted "Leave". Even allowing for the stupid way of telling it, is a BIG discrepancy. But then ----------- Statistics tell you what you want to believe. Providing you cherry-pick the data.

I don't remember being taken to task for describing politics as a belief system. And as such is 100% a religion. Evidenced based of course.


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Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 02:16 PM

”Your recollection of the British industrial scene are so much at variance with the facts BWM, that I assumed it was merely your biassed point of view.”

Ever heard the one about ‘pot’ and ‘kettle’? My recollections are the facts, they’re just not your ‘facts’ because they don’t support your illogical hatred of the EU.

”And I don't see much to change my opinion”

That’s because your view is blocked by the chip(s) on your shoulder(s).

”.Most factories in the Notts Derby - hosiery, textile, engineering - had a well motivated workforce that did their damndest to support their managements..”

Where have I said otherwise? Links please.

”Why you guys hate the English working class so much, I don't know. Obviously you think the economy of the country will be fine without them. Lets hope you're right.”

I haven’t a clue where that came from, but you really are just making stuff up. It’s quite galling that I’m accused of ‘hating the English (sic) working class’ by someone sitting comfortably in his leafy Dorset Idyll, while I’m living where I’ve always lived - in a former industrialised Midlands market town where that industry was destroyed back in the ‘70s, and which has one of the lowest per capita income-levels in the UK.

I am ‘Working Class’ - you barely know me, and you certainly don’t know me well enough to make that kind of judgment. If you did know me, and my life-history, well enough your judgment of me would be very different.

Once again - stop making stuff up - it’s extremely offensive, and it’s making you look very foolish indeed.


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Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Jul 19 - 02:19 PM

Pfr - three excellent posts. Respect, man! ;-)


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Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Iains
Date: 12 Jul 19 - 04:32 AM

Seems labour is intent on tearing its self apart. "More than 30 whistleblowers including current members of staff will submit evidence to the equalities watchdog’s examination of Labour antisemitism, amid warnings that the party had failed to grasp the seriousness of the investigation.

The revelation comes after eight former members of staff went public in a BBC Panorama programme alleging consistent interference in the disputes process by senior Labour aides."

The above from the Gruniard so it must be true?
Meanwhile: A fresh video has been unearthed of Jeremy Corbyn apparently speaking at a Labour event last October. Corbyn gives his response to “some criticisms made of us in the right-wing media over the last Summer”. As in, the massive anti-Semitism and IHRA storm that raged around him all of last summer and has not gone away:

    “It doesn’t bother me. Nothing keeps me awake at night anyway, I frankly don’t care.”

Compo is in his twilight period as leader I suspect. Corbyn may not care but it is now in the hands of the Equality and Human Rights Commission (EHRC)


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Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Jul 19 - 06:41 AM

A Jewish member of the house of lords - a Rabbi..

was interviewed on BBC news yesterday and said something along the kines of..

"..it does seem more than a coincidence that eight people come forward with the same complaint..??"


yes it does.. doesn't it...??

..imagine that, eight folks rehearsed and perfected on the same pre-agreed & colluded script...????

See, without evidence to the contrary, there is more than one way of interpreting the words of a group of complainants...

genuine or malicious... will we ever know the truth...!!???


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Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Jul 19 - 07:10 AM

By the sound of it. Labour has achieved perfection.

1) On the right side of the Brexit problem
2) No antisemitism
3) A wise and decent man as leader.

Even with those pesky right wing media types and eight right wing stinkers in a conspiracy against Labour, I reckon you must be pretty confident of a landslide victory - what with them being so right about everything.


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Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Jul 19 - 07:32 AM

Al - now is not a time for absolutist certainty...


Minds that are made up and closed may be comforting,
blinkers may shield the eyes,
but they don't immunise from the realities of political skulduggery...

The labour party may be in a dire condition,
but abject negativity like yours won't help heal it for us and the next generation...

Tell us, do you relish the prospect of permanent tory govt until your final days...???

Tommy Robinson will be out in less than three months and back on the campaign
to push our political 'norms' even further right...

Disaffected working class folks love him...

How do you fancy that as a new order...???


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Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Jul 19 - 07:35 AM

From the last post, you will gather that I'm not really expecting the party I have voted for all my life to score a famous victory. However - who knows - perhaps you are right in every particular.

My Father once explained something to me. In the second world war - the two gambling games most favoured by his regiment were brag (three card and nine card a Napoloeon (sometimes called Nap - occasionally pontoon - but the brag and nap were the favourites.

Dad said to me, Alan - these are games of chance, Very little skill involved. Its just the run of the cards. Now- if you find yourself in a game where you don't win a hand all night - the chances are that you are being cheated. Two nights and its definite - just walk away from the table.

Later in life we had a member of our family who found himself unable to walk away. He was suffering from a masochistic mental illness. He involved the family in many thousands of pounds worth of debt. Although finally you will be pleased to hear - he was cured - but it lasted maybe six years. All that time - never having any money - very lucky not to lose his wife and family.

Now if that was a a mental disease - just having to be part of the only game in town

In forty years we have been sat at the table - we have lost the fishing industry, the textile industry, the car industry, the steel industry, the ship building and repair industry, the motor bike industry, the dumper truck industry, the hosiery industry and so on.

No its not a panacea. We should have been much richer if we had not sat down at the table.

And if I have a chip on my shoulder - Ithink some people have a block of wood more centrally located.


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Subject: RE: Labour - the party of Remain
From: bobad
Date: 12 Jul 19 - 07:48 AM

It never bodes well for a political party when it is taken over by extremists.


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