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BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: Backwoodsman Date: 17 Aug 19 - 04:09 PM John Pearse lived for many years in the US, initially working for CF Martin on design projects, following which he started the Breezy Ridge Instrument Co, selling his own range of guitar-accessories. He moved to Germany in 2002, and died there in 2008. |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: Big Al Whittle Date: 17 Aug 19 - 02:38 PM Pearse - he used to make guitar strings. Kepr Derek Brimstone supplied. They were mates. I think John went to live in Scandinavia, and died there a few years back. |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: GUEST,akenaton Date: 17 Aug 19 - 02:07 PM Yes, that's right. I've still got the record and tutor...think it was John Pearce? |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: The Sandman Date: 17 Aug 19 - 12:17 PM There was a time when the BBC ran a useful series of programmes called hold down a chord, that was when they had a brief which included education , they now seem to believe in being commercial only |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: Jim Carroll Date: 17 Aug 19 - 08:56 AM "If the meaning of physics has never changed, I'd be surprised" Just as I am nonplussed why the meaning of 'folk' has changed Al - particularly as those who would insists it has either can't or won't tell me what it has changed to Jim |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: Big Al Whittle Date: 17 Aug 19 - 08:34 AM unarguable - I'm not sure what quantum physics is. If the meaning of physics has never changed, I'd be surprised. Talking to a sciece teacher aquaintance, I know for a fact that the chemistry knowledge that got me through one of my few O levels is now considered 'a load of old rubbish' (his actual words). |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: Vic Smith Date: 17 Aug 19 - 05:59 AM Thank you, Jim, for clear and useful answers to my questions and for your explanations of the way you use these terms. Even where I disagree with you, it is useful to know the way that you have arrived at these opinions. |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: Jim Carroll Date: 17 Aug 19 - 04:32 AM "supposing some idiot came up with a definition of folk music, " You mean "a new definition of folk music" surely Al ? There is already a perfectly serviceable one and has been since for over half a century - in need of tweeking admittedly but far mor agreed upon than by a few dying clubs In fact, as it is used at present, it means so many different things to so many different people that it is meaningless Folk song has passed by the vast majority of people as to be totally unknown to them - you could probably say the same about quantum physics - tha doesn't in any way impact on the true meaning of the term Jim |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: Jim Carroll Date: 17 Aug 19 - 04:32 AM "supposing some idiot came up with a definition of folk music, " You mean "a new definition of folk music" surely Al ? There is already a perfectly serviceable one and has been since for over half a century - in need of tweeking admittedly but far mor agreed upon than by a few dying clubs In fact, as it is used at present, it means so many different things to so many different people that it is meaningless Folk song has passed by the vast majority of people as to be totally unknown to them - you could probably say the same about quantum physics - tha doesn't in any way impact on the true meaning of the term Jim |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: The Sandman Date: 17 Aug 19 - 04:32 AM * What qualifications does a person need to decide who are 'the folk' and who is 'ordinary'?" a degree in folk music from the newcastle degree course |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: Big Al Whittle Date: 17 Aug 19 - 04:09 AM supposing some idiot came up with a definition of folk music, what would it prove - other than he was as big an idiot as the last bloke who tried to come up with a definition. Insisting that the last idiot was right still doesn't alter the fact that the term 'folk music' is in common usage and means something very different from what Mr Idiot said. |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: The Sandman Date: 17 Aug 19 - 04:03 AM I .ad that jim knowledge in my cab the other day, i said er jim all this stuff your writing on mudcat ,i thought you were a taxi driver,not a taxi dermist,that jim knowlkedge he said dont you call my taxi shit . i am german he said i keep myb taxi well regulated and clean it is not shit. i said get stuffed you animal |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: Jim Carroll Date: 17 Aug 19 - 03:28 AM Vic Sorry - did cross post 'Ordinary person' is not a term I particularly like, but is seems it's the one we're stuck with till a better one comes along. I avoid the term 'working person' because that leads ot accusations of a political agenda (strangely enough, I can think of no greater 'political agenda' than setting out to claim that 'working people have never composed their own folk songs which described their own lives, but had to go out and buy them. The vast body of what we have referred to as 'folk songs' came largely from the rural working people, land labourers, small farmers, rural village dwellers, village tradesmen, occupants of workhouses.... Added to this were the sea songs which describes the lives of sailors; soldiers.... A little work was done on collecting songs from mill workers and miners. All these seem to me that main source of our folk songs In my opinion, 'the people' not only sang the songs but, when you examine the content of them, they almost certainly made the bulk of them (rather than, as now is being claimed) purchasing them There is masses of as yet unexamined evidence to make this a great probability - 'the folk' certain had the ability to have made the songs People sang all sorts of songs, pop songs, hymns, music-hall pieces - some of the Welsh Miners formed societies and sang Verdi and Gilbert and Sullivan - it would be nonsense to claim everything the 'folk' sang was 'folk' but that seems to be the latest academic fad (though I have yet to see Hank Williams songs with Roud numbers, I wonder why, some of our Traveller friends had dozens of them). Of course, it isn't just who sang the songs that makes them 'folk', it's what happened to them - the anonymity, the adopting of the songs as 'ours' wherever they took root, the changing and adapting to fit different areas, circumstances and conditions - the singers we met laid claim to the folk songs they sang as 'ours' - Norfolk, West Clare, the Travellers... THere is also how the singers visualised the songs they sang, identifying not just with the plots, but giving thee characters identities - Walter Pardon did this with nearly all his songs One Traveller singer told us that singing a song was "like sitting in the pictures" All this produced a identifiably unique body of song that drew people like us into the clubs decades ago - we enjoyed singing and listening to them, some singers made new songs usinf the old forms - because they worked. Some of us took it further and lifted the corner to see if there was anything underneath Pat, I and others came to the conclusion that they were an essential but much neglected part of our history - an oral record, largely unrecorded, of what happened to working people and how they reacted to it and felt about it. From a purely personal point of view, my family fled Ireland after the famine - their lives and experiences were massively reflected in song My father's family were merchant seamen - reflected in the songs (my uncle once entertained a roomful of people at Sidmouth by singing shanties he'd learned from my grandfather) My dad became a navvy - reflected in the small handful of songs on working on the road.... He also became involved in Irish politics around the time Ireland was fighting for independence - reflected in hundreds of songs What makes our folk songs stand apart from all other forms is their uniqueness, in form, in content and in function For me, all of this is worth drawing attention to, even if I can no longer enjoy listening to the songs in the once numerous clubs Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: GUEST Date: 16 Aug 19 - 05:04 PM which "folk" would they be ? |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: GUEST,akenaton Date: 16 Aug 19 - 04:44 PM real folk music |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: GUEST,Akenaton Date: 16 Aug 19 - 04:32 PM Yer pissin intae the wind Jim....the "folk" in here hiv nae sense eh yoomur at aw" :0) |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge Date: 16 Aug 19 - 04:06 PM I `ad that Sublime Ashtray in my cab the other day. `e was scouring through the Radio Times while we were going along. I said, "`ere, what are you looking for then? `e said , "Oh, Morning Jim. I went to the proms the other day. We `ad a smashing night with all the classical stuff and what `ave yer. I was just looking to see `oo won the competition. We `ad to leave before the end so I am looking to see if the BBC `ave published the results. I said, "It`s not an awards ceremony, it`s just a concert, you Wally." `e said, " Gor Blimey. I put a tenner on Beethoven at 20 to 1. I been taken for a right ride by that shyster bookie in the pub!!" Whaddam I Like?? |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: Vic Smith Date: 16 Aug 19 - 03:07 PM 02.49 mine and 02.52 Jim's so it looks like we cross posted, so I think I can take it that Jim's latest comment does not refer to me and that I can still look forward to answers to my questions. |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: Jim Carroll Date: 16 Aug 19 - 02:52 PM "I wasn't patting you on the back, merely laughing at the absurdity of your statement. " And I was just kicking yours into touch So far Al has shuffled around the fact that there is a long established definition of the music that served as a source of interest and entertainment for nearly four decades It's recorded in title as far back as 'The Penguin Book of Folk Song' right through to the magnificent eight volume Greig Duncan Folk Song Collection There are many thousands of books and articles describing its uniqueness as an art form I'm afraid yur somewhat evasive bullshit doesn't come anywhere near to l=knocking down that monulment to working people's culture and creation THere aren't enough "other ordinary people" to scratch together an alternative definition, it would appear Al Whoops - have to be more careful - just spilled my stodgy gravy down my "tit trousers"] You pair really aren't explaining yourselves at all clearly Jim |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: Vic Smith Date: 16 Aug 19 - 02:49 PM Jim wrote :- In the main, people fave (presumably 'have') never really been interested in what 'the folk' think about their songs and stories I declare my resistance to enter the debate because I feel a sense of the beginning of this thread returning to the hoary repetitious statements from entrenched positions that we have heard many times before. However, I would like to ask politely of Jim these questions:- * Who are 'the folk' or 'ordinary' people that he has mentioned in his recent posts? It may be that you are talking generally but your decision to mark them with inverted commas suggests something more specific. If you could help us with these, I'm sure that it would bring clarity to the debate and help us to progress the discussion. |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: GUEST,Some bloke Date: 16 Aug 19 - 02:23 PM Anyway. Jim said The BBC has nothing to do with folk songs and he replied that he already said that. Err.. I wasn't patting you on the back, merely laughing at the absurdity of your statement. Still, nice to see you getting support from places where confusion is only the start of their problems... Meanwhile, for the rest of us, I am as ever looking forward to seeing how the full range of that nebulous genre "folk" gets on in that annual entertainment that is the BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards. By the way Jim, if you must give a definition of folk, watch out. You hardly scratched the surface of the musical genre. I recall as a teenager being in a punk band, we raged against the corporate pop music industry because ours was (and I'll quote you here) "music of the people, created by the 'ordinary' people.." Perhaps if you limit your comments to the very narrow field within "folk" which you revere, you might sound more credible but the more you rant, the more odd they sound and easy it is to dismiss your comments. As many have pointed out, in a narrow field within folk, you are rather knowledgable but your insistence of claiming 5% to be 100% is up there with your mate Akenaton. Well done. This is about the awards, I suppose the main topics for constructive debate would be 1. Does a wide enough range of talent and style get to be nominated? 2. Is competition a good way to promote a musical genre to the wider public? Everything else is stodgy gravy. |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: Big Al Whittle Date: 16 Aug 19 - 02:16 PM how ordinary do they have to be/ They're doing their best to be ordinary. I'm not dismissing your point of view. If it works you - great! I'm just saying - other otdinary people see their relationship with the term folk music differently. Kicking each other shins and denying the validity of views which are onviously held in good faith. It can only antagonise, divide and make us less significant as a movement |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: Jim Carroll Date: 16 Aug 19 - 01:51 PM Don't understand your link Al - that's a promotion of 'folk events - as far from "academic debates" as you can get I've given you the centuries established, worldwide accepted, and closely documented definition of folk song (not mine by any means) - could you perhaps give me yours and guide me to where I can read it up to see who agrees with it Wht do you constantly skirt around the fact that folk muic is he music of the people, created by the 'ordinary' people, kept alive and passed on by them - a poetic-musical form that represents our past experiences - our oral history in verse Surely that's worth a mention - even if it's only a dismissal Jim |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: Big Al Whittle Date: 16 Aug 19 - 01:33 PM Well save your breath for some more worthwhile endeavour. Its not a case of right or wrong - some people think differently from you - and they're entitled to. This is a website of all the informal folk clubs over our area. https://sanchobramble.weebly.com/ It shows the places where people are out there doing their thing 7 days a week....why are you so determined that they should not be allowed to think what they are doing is folk music? Earlier this week I was reading the sleeve notes as I listened to an album called Louis Armstrong plays WC Handy, it quotes someone called Abby Niles writing a foreword of WC Hangy's book, A Treasury of the Blues. Handy's object in writing Blues he says is 'to speak the tongues of folk singers - meaning not only their words and turns of thought, but the musical language'. Continually you impute the most venal and unworthy motivations. I really don't understand why you think - any other reaction but that of a curator of the tradition is the unacceptable face of folk music. |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: Jim Carroll Date: 16 Aug 19 - 12:46 PM "Every state of academia debates it." Where Al Nobody debates it - if that's not true, give me examples One of the great failures of the folk song revival is its failure to catch the attention or the interest of the general public - we are a few tadpoles swimming around in a small, self created piss-pot If it was being debated that would be an indication that the scene was a healthy one At one time we had a steadily rising number of clubs and supporters - now dwindled to a trickle of elderly hangers-on Sociologists have largely failed to recognise folk song as being an important aspect of working class life, certainly on this side of the pond The have not taken folk song seriously because those involved have failed to do so - your - 'singing horse' definition has helped with that largely, now it stands to drive the nails into the coffin of a rapidly fading genre Show me where folk song is being debated Al - I really would love to be part of that Over the last two plus decades Pat and I have given talks in four Universities and several colleges Each time we have come away with the feeling that we are ploughing new ground when we try to put our songs and tales into a social context - In the main, people fave never really been interested in what 'the folk' think about their songs and stories - certainly not enough to ask them in any detail A few have - Lomax did some tremendous work; so did Mike Yates (go read some of his articles on the Musical Traditions' site There has been a hostile takeover of the term 'folk' on the club scene, largely by people who neither line nor understand folk song and wish to use 'folk' for their own unidentifiable genres (they don't even have a consensus among themselves) That is, to my mind, a betrayal of one of our most important cultural and artistic forms A crying shame - I say I'm glad the Irish scene has had the sense to build a future for its folk arts by first laying firm foundations Jim |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: Big Al Whittle Date: 16 Aug 19 - 12:07 PM Every strate of academia debates it. Because upon it depends the validity of our ideas about society, linguistics and culture and all culrral activities. Every sociologist is obsessed with the idea of whether we should respect and preserve working class culture whose play and cultural activities may constitute delinquecy to our upper class administrators, and the morality of subtly trying to replace indigent working class culture with more acceptable avenues of behaviour. Basically = you are entitled to your opinion, but not mine. |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: Jim Carroll Date: 16 Aug 19 - 10:33 AM No debate necessary btw - it's all far too well documented to need one Jim |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: Jim Carroll Date: 16 Aug 19 - 10:32 AM "no they aren't definitions." 'fraid they are al They are not "hotly debated" - a few high flyers have gone rogue and decided to make them something else, but as the numbers are far to few to even scratch the surface of over a century's research they don't mean quat All of which is a million miles away from the club scene which is declining at the rate of knots basically because nobody knows what they will be served if they go to a folk club any more If you say there is a debate, pwerhaps yo can tell me what the academic's arguments are and who is putting them No ? Thought not Jim |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: Big Al Whittle Date: 16 Aug 19 - 09:55 AM no they aren't definitions. they are your opinions about a subject which is hotly debated at every level of society and academia. Only The Pope and The Mullahs and that class of know-all,knows they are absolutely unchalleneably right. |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: Jim Carroll Date: 16 Aug 19 - 08:21 AM "The BBC has nothing to do with folk song" I already said that - why repeat it ? The BBC have a history of isolating the best of folk onto (previously) The Third Programme and when the best of it sneaked out via Midlands Radio, hastily closed the Features Department and got rid of the best of their broadcasters like Charles Parker and Philip Donnellan The closing of the Radio Ballads because the team refused accept the removal of the "exterminate the Travellers" statement was typical of its approach Their neglect of the most important project, the 1950s mopping-up remains a disgrace - still largely unavailable 70 years later Sorry Bloke (I couldn't remember your earlier multi-personas until Ake just mentioned it) - I have to say you blew it with me long time ago when you started denegrating and insulting the people who gave us their magnificent with your "tit-trousers" " so can't be all that bed eh?" Are you suggesting we're having an affair !! Jim |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: GUEST,akenaton Date: 16 Aug 19 - 07:59 AM BTW...I fully agree with the points you have been making in regard to "Folk music awards" |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: GUEST,akenaton Date: 16 Aug 19 - 07:43 AM Don't let Ian wind you up Sandman....without his alter egos he is just a bit pathetic. "The Muskets" are history. |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: The Sandman Date: 16 Aug 19 - 06:48 AM Tom Brown,[ not to be confused with tom who is married to barbara brown] I remember him, he was the man ,that sang a homophobic song called my second name is clarence but you can call me clare,imo a very unpleasant song poking fun at people with different sexual orientations, and in my opinin he was not much of a singer, i doubt his authenticty as a tradtional singer , he was in my opinion an average unaccompanied revival singer, but we all have different tastes ,some bloke, if you like the company of people who sing homophobic songs about sexual orientation that tells me something about you ,too |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: GUEST,Some bloke Date: 16 Aug 19 - 06:35 AM heh heh "The BBC has nothing to do with folk song" Ha Ha Ha deeeeaaarrrryyy meee... You give value for money Jim, I'll give you that one. a bit like saying I don't like folk songs. Your view on multi coloured aardvarks winds me up too, and for the same reasons. (Funnily enough, Fred Jordan thought it hilarious when I introduced him on stage as "old tit trousers." it was a running joke between him, Tom Brown and me. I was fortunate as a young singer to go round the festival circuit with Tom and Bertha Brown, got to know many of the influencers of the folk revival. Although apparently I don't know anything.) Saying things about others without foundation isn't helpful Jim. Just because Donald Trump gets away with it, it doesn't help discussions amongst grown ups. Although it does seem to put you and Dick on the same wavelength so can't be all that bed eh? |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: Vic Smith Date: 16 Aug 19 - 06:09 AM Dick wrote :- rule one no performing with scraps of paper .... or using iPads or similar hand held electronic devices as prompts (though my impression as a regular song session and folk club goer is that this is on the decline in my area). If you want to be able to communicate a song, you must learn it properly first. |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: The Sandman Date: 16 Aug 19 - 05:34 AM Here is a suggestion, this undoubtedly has flaws but something to consider, if the BBC deem it necessary to have awards An Award for the best young[under40] folk club organiser, an award for the best young folk[under40] festival organiser. I suggest this because these are two things that are lacking in the uk folk revival. What else needs improving, the overall standard of floor singers? this could be divided into sections[rule one no performing with scraps of paper]. I do not approve of awards, but if the BBC insists on having them then logically, those aspects of the uk folk revival that are in need of strengthening should be looked at. |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: Jim Carroll Date: 15 Aug 19 - 11:50 AM "and know even less." Drink to that one Jim |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: GUEST Date: 15 Aug 19 - 11:46 AM "Pretty well sums up the outlook of many who don't like folk song ..." and know even less. |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: Jim Carroll Date: 15 Aug 19 - 11:15 AM "If you don't wear your trousers up to your tits, you don't know much. what an idiotic comment" It's a disparagingly insulting comment on how old people like Fred Jordan and Harry Cox dressed Dick - not to be takentoo seriously, much like most statements by the maker Pretty well sums up the outlook of many who don't like folk song Jim |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: The Sandman Date: 15 Aug 19 - 11:06 AM If you don't wear your trousers up to your tits, you don't know much. what an idiotic comment |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: Jim Carroll Date: 15 Aug 19 - 10:30 AM "as Jim seems to be fascinated by them" I'm not - please don't attribute things to me that are simply not true I used them as a dead form that has successfully survived down the ages without being damaged and without being acculturated The BBC has nothing to do with folk song and has been handed back to the tender mercies of the establishment Having 186 an estimated surviving clubs being described as 'successful' says what needs to be said im Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: GUEST,Some bloke Date: 15 Aug 19 - 10:17 AM Yeah, I'll go out and get pissed on my blood money... Even fossils change their constituent make up whilst keeping their form. Funny how those not interested in the exciting evolution of folk are the first to complain about what they don't even know. Elizabethan madrigals as Jim seems to be fascinated by them) get played in churches now, as they did under old Bess. Try that stunt when Cromwell was in charge. Then back to churches, then the Victorians pushed them out to concert halls. Back in churches now, as well as everywhere else. Music as described here exists. You hear it in folk clubs, singarounds, concerts and especially on Youtube. Personally, I'll hear it on BBC iPlayer Radio a few days after the next exciting awards night. zzzzzzzzzzzzz. (Watch out Joe G, agreeing with me can be fun around here. If you don't wear your trousers up to your tits, you don't know much. ??) |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: Jim Carroll Date: 15 Aug 19 - 05:17 AM "Have you guys not heard of evolution? " Dead forms don't evolve - they only decay Elizabethan madrigals died out with the Golden Age - didn't stop people continuing to play them or even use the forms to create new music, but they were working in a dead tradition We took traditional songs, sang them, listened tto them and enjoyed them for decades - and we made and sangs using new forms You have usurped the veues we created, stolen the name and are now passing off pop-sounding stuff in it's place - nothing 'evolutionary about that - technically it's called 'acculturation' In doing so, not only have you robbed future generations of enjoying the creative art of our predecessors and also are gradually destroying even the identity of that important art form Whatt you are doing is equivalent to calling Eastenders "Shakespeherian" Both have their values as entertainment and culture (I suppose) but both are different beasts Evolution involves entire genres and species into something identifiable else - you people ca't even agree between you what it has evolved into or what are its identifying features - and the only people you represent are a minute and rapidly diminishing number You have sold our folk identity back to the Music Industry it gave us a workable alternative to Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: The Sandman Date: 15 Aug 19 - 05:10 AM no some bloke , i have never stated that it should stand still, i have stated that i believe these awards are not the way i would like to see it move forward , that is completely different. I enterd the folk revival in 1966 the first person i saw in a folk club was ralph mctell singing blind blake songs, then i heard gerry lockran singing blues in a folk club i later heard tradtional songs, so my musical taste EVOLVED , i still like ralph mctell, i still like some blues performers. I also like jazz and classical music, I also like the smodern songs written by various performers Bill caddick, MacColl, Peter Bond, Rosselson you have made assumptions about my musical tastes that are wrong. I have never stated that the folk revival should stand still, I said that these awrds are not a good idea , I also said that i think that these awards are not a good idea, i do not think they are the best way to develop the music, or the best way for this music to evolve, that does not mean that i think the music should stand still, it never does that any way, because most singers who understand tradtional music, cause it to evolve by altering the way they sing it and putting their own interpretation on the song. if you think that tradtional music is standing still you have no understanding of the nature of the beast.Some Bloke you have once again shown your ignorance of tradtional music. |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: GUEST,Joe G Date: 15 Aug 19 - 04:43 AM Well said SB! |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: GUEST,Some bloke Date: 15 Aug 19 - 04:35 AM I reckon that if Kit Bailey reads this thread, she will feel that The Folk Awards are doing it right and heading in the right direction. It's interesting that this musical genre, based on evolution and reflecting today to serve as a record for future generations is littered with those who think it should stand still at the time they became interested in it. The Folk Revival was a discovery, not an invention. The medium is altering yet the interest and participation in the music itself is stronger than ever. I reckon some are introducing nostalgia. I say what I usually say in these debates; Cecil Sharp would be bemused to say the least to see melodeons accompanying Morris.... |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: GUEST,Joe G Date: 15 Aug 19 - 04:32 AM That should have said 'As the music played by Sam Sweeney is folk music' |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: GUEST,Joe G Date: 15 Aug 19 - 04:30 AM Our responses crossed. Of course The Bold Fisherman is a folk song. As are the songs of Karine Polwart, those performed by Stick in The Wheel and Ye Vagabonds, the music played by Sam Sweeney etc |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: The Sandman Date: 15 Aug 19 - 04:27 AM ridiculous ? no it emphasises the need for definitions, if i see a classical concert advertised i do not expect to hear a buddy holly tribute band. I have stated that i do not think these awards are a good idea, that in no way reflects upon any of the performers[ or whether what they play is good music, pop music or folk music] who took part , is that clear. |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: GUEST,Joe G Date: 15 Aug 19 - 04:17 AM Nope but it has no relevance to those forms. The shortlisted Folk Awards artists' music is very much folk music even if in a broad sense in some cases. Anyway we are never going to agree on this so there is little point arguing any further - especially if you are going to make ridiculous comments such as the last one Have a good day |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: The Sandman Date: 15 Aug 19 - 04:15 AM Sorry joe, I gave an example of a folk song [the bold fisherman], do you agree that the bold fisherman is a folk song, why is that narrow you have not answered my question is peggy sue a classical composition?. |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: The Sandman Date: 15 Aug 19 - 04:09 AM joe g are you going to call this jazz or classical music, slim whitmanhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LY-_-U5-rP4 |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: GUEST,Joe G Date: 15 Aug 19 - 04:08 AM Yes but all the finalists in the Folk Awards perform a form of traditional or contemporary folk music You two stick to your narrow, view of what folk music is and I'll stick to my broader approach - one that is generally accepted by most successful and enduring folk clubs, festivals and record labels Time has moved on and I'm very glad we have a surfeit of fabulous traditional and contemporary folk to listen to and celebrate |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: The Sandman Date: 15 Aug 19 - 03:57 AM Iam going on a summers holiday by cliff richard is not a classical music composition neither is buddy holly singing peggy sue a classical composition. royal garden blues is jazz , not classical music lucille is a country composition not a classical compostion, these are definitions. |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: GUEST,Joe G Date: 15 Aug 19 - 03:42 AM Have you guys not heard of evolution? Like most firms of art folk music evolves and changes. To use Jim's 'classical' music analogy the soundworld of James McMillan, Arvo Part and other contemporary composers is very different from Mozart but they are still regarded as contemporary 'classical' composers by many in the same way that the many of the artists shortlisted in the awards are contemporary folk artists |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: The Sandman Date: 15 Aug 19 - 03:29 AM Well Said Jim.this is what i consider a folk song https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_hdYgzjdKU |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: Jim Carroll Date: 15 Aug 19 - 03:13 AM As far as I am concerned, there is little that can be done about clubs indifferent enough to what damage has been done to both folk songs and the folk scene to continue to pass off whatever they fancy as "folk" (without being able to define the term), but, in my opinion, a licenced finaned organisation like the BBC needs to be held to account for their behaviour towards one of the most important of our performing arts. If they tried to pass off any old sound as 'Classical' there's be screams of protest from Glyndebourne to The Albert Hall I caught the tail end of the 2019 Eisteddfod last night (never a fan of this, but at least it was musical) and was appalled at the dreadful mush that was being passed off as Welsh Traditional' It seems the disease is spreading Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: The Sandman Date: 14 Aug 19 - 01:44 PM Ido not agree with these awards regardless of the winners. |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: r.padgett Date: 13 Aug 19 - 01:45 PM Yes yes I would have to agree regarding non nomination of Grannys Attic and Cohen Braithwaite Kilcoyne ~ this young man was overlooked last year I think ~he is a very talented musician and singer in great demand ~ his introductions and confidence have improved greatly So ~lets see what happens now Ray |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: GUEST Date: 13 Aug 19 - 12:13 PM RTE announced their inaugural Folk Awards in 2018. Just out of curiosity, here are the winners. Best Folk Singer - Radie Peat Best Traditional Folk Track - Bean Dubh A’ Ghleanna – Muireann Nic Amhlaoibh Best Folk Instrumentalist - Martin Hayes Hall of Fame - Tom Munnelly Hall of Fame - John Reilly Best Original Folk Track - Along the Western Seaboard – Declan O’Rourke Best Folk Album - Haven - We Banjo 3 Best Emerging Folk Artist - Emma Langford Best Folk Group - Lankum Lifetime Achievement Award - Andy Irvine |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: GUEST,jim bainbridge Date: 13 Aug 19 - 10:26 AM For many years my reaction to the phrase 'singer-songwriter' has been to groan (yes there are many good, even excellent ones)- I now 4xperience a similar reaction to 'award-winning' and after hearing some of the bilge coming out of the Edinburgh Festival. I think I'll add 'stand-up comedian' - oh, and ACCLAIMED in any context equals AVOID AT ALL COSTS.... |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: BruceL Date: 13 Aug 19 - 09:40 AM People might be interested in the BBC Folk Awards rules - always instructive to see how decisions are arrived at and who they are made by. One extract from the 2018 Awards [I can't find the 2019 ones online] - "The Voting Panel is made up of approximately 150 people. The Panel is comprised of those persons who have a professional or semi-professional interest in folk music, i.e. journalists, broadcasters, festival and club organisers, venue bookers, record company personnel, folk music academics, etc." The full rules for 2019 are at the BBC Website. https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/c7mfYt17wxPXmfdttl7HDS/folk-awards-rules |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: r.padgett Date: 13 Aug 19 - 08:15 AM Yea great stuff Vic Smith ~ really great to go to the KIT session Sheffield (Kelham Island Tavern) and young thrusters and oldies taking their turns in an unaccompanied sing of largely trad songs Ray |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: Vic Smith Date: 13 Aug 19 - 06:07 AM Guest ST wrote:- I’ve always been impressed by those ‘professionals’ who get down to their local sessions and take their turn in a singaround with the rest of us. It’s one of the things that makes ‘folk’ special to me (and, yes, I’m sure there are plenty of other genres that it could be applied to as well.) I was at a really excellent song and tune session in the village of Partridge Green in Sussex a couple of weeks ago. The 40+ people there packed out the room. Martyn Wyndham-Read and Iris Bishop were sitting quietly there - but they only got their two songs along with the rest of us. |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: Vic Smith Date: 13 Aug 19 - 05:58 AM Sometime ago (but I have been too busy to respond) Joe G.wrote:- It would be nice if instead of criticising these musicians some of you were more supportive of them. I find the narrow minded, anal attitude on here truly appalling sometimes. A shame as there are many worthwhile contributions from people who love music and don't belittle mostly younger musicians' contributions to the rich tapestry of folk music in the UK I would suggest that Joe has got hold of the wrong end of the stick. I read most of the criticism of the Folk Awards here as coming from those who think that an "award" being chosen by a small coterie of music professionals does not have any value or validity. I agree that there are many exciting young performers that have emerged on the scene and it gladdens my heart when I hear them; I booked Matt Quinn when he was still a schoolboy and Hazel & Emily Askew both still at school and driven to the gig by their father when they did their first gig for us. But I don't want to hear that one has an award and the other doesn't. I can't see the point when we should just be delighted that talented young singer/musicians have chosen traditional song and music because of their love of it. Why compare? Just be glad that we have that those three and many others have developed into admirable performers and people. |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: John MacKenzie Date: 13 Aug 19 - 05:26 AM Double royalties Rigby, double royalties. Or perhaps a bigger share of said royalties, when there is no writer to pay. Trad arr MacKenzie |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: GUEST,henryp Date: 13 Aug 19 - 04:53 AM There is a still a lot to feel strongly about! No doubt singers today have the same urge to tell a story as the older singers. Some, of course, will express themselves better than others. As ever, time will weed out the weaker songs. |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: Rigby Date: 13 Aug 19 - 04:45 AM On a slight tangent, I'm puzzled by the number of people who come to prominence as good singers of traditional songs, then switch to performing mostly self-written material that often isn't much cop and never record the traditional material that attracted attention in the first place. Is there more money in being a mediocre singer-songwriter than in being a good singer of traditional song? Or is it that they always planned to have careers as singer-songwriters and just used the folk scene as a springboard? |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: Acorn4 Date: 13 Aug 19 - 04:19 AM Really surprised Granny's Attic weren't included at some point. I know they are not new kids on the block any more but they are still on the bill at most of the big festivals. |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: r.padgett Date: 13 Aug 19 - 04:15 AM Not to mention the Sheffield based younger folkies eg Rosie Hood, Molly Pipe, Matt Quinn, Jesse and Richard Arrowsmith, The Davenports family etc Ray |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: r.padgett Date: 13 Aug 19 - 04:10 AM Yes I am aware of the Awards categories and the strength and depth of "artists" is very deep and the quality very high ~ ppl go to folk festivals to do their thing dancing singing story telling, playing tunes and not necessarily to hear the newest bright you things My view is that traditional folk should be the base ~ song writing is contemporary folk and good songs do rise to the surface ~ O'Hooley and Tidow with Gentleman Jack? All food for thought |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: GUEST,alan whittle Date: 13 Aug 19 - 04:08 AM doesn't exactly set your mind on fire, does it? |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: r.padgett Date: 13 Aug 19 - 04:02 AM Well at least I helped flag up Radio 2 Folk programme and its annual awards programme Once again it seems no televised version ~ this for me is an opportunity missed seen some great acts recently at Warwick and Saltburn who are "doing it" selection Martin Windham Read and Iris Bishop, Bill Adair, Keith Donnelly, Miriam Backhouse, Chris Sherburn & Denny and Emily, the Hut People, Tom McConville, Dog Watch, Monkeys Fist, The Wilsons, Les Barker Stan Accrington,Paul Walker & Karen Pfeiffer, Flossie and whole hog full of local heroes wherever you go One wonders if the Awards nominees has a regional bias ~ well I don't know!! or perhaps the nominators have a different agenda? Ray |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: Jim Carroll Date: 13 Aug 19 - 03:40 AM It is not 'negative' to suggest that those on the list receiving awards are not singing folk songs - that is just stating a fact This is not to say they couldn't if they tried - but no sign of it here We met and talked to Lisa O'Neill at the premier of the Joe Heaney film, 'Man of Granite' Her singing in the film was excellent - a far cry from her award winning, drearily dragged out, dirgy 'Factory Girl' If you are going to award a competent singer it needs to be for good singing. The Awards are just the BBC being the BBC and capitalising on something of which they neither have knowledge or interest (any more - they once did have, in spades) Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: GUEST,akenaton Date: 13 Aug 19 - 03:31 AM Daoiri is "folk" to his bootstraps regardless of how you define it. Watching and listening to him perform gives one an instant connection to the music.....it's all about emotion and connecting people to the music. I have been listening to Daoiri a lot over the last few years.....and you know it when you hear it. I would just add that not everyone is capable of showing or feeling raw emotion....the younger generation are generally deficient, of perhaps conditioned to suppress it. |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: The Sandman Date: 13 Aug 19 - 03:28 AM no as far as i am concerned it is nothing to do with anyones music but the principle is of this sort of award.I think these ards are not a good idea, what has that got to do with anyonesmusic , i am no more always right than you, you sanctimonious troll,i just have a different opinion to you, that is known as free speech |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: Stewie Date: 12 Aug 19 - 09:17 PM Joe, I agree totally with your comment about the 'negative attitude'. I agree that the competitive aspect is meaningless, but if the list draws attention to some fine music, well and good. To describe the output of excellent performers as 'crap', 'pop pap', 'introspective strummers', 'codswallop', 'commercial abuse of people's music' etc is simply ridiculous. Whatever label you care to hang on them, the recent albums by Lisa O'Neill, Stick in the Wheel, Ye Vagabonds, The Trials of Cato, Karine Polwart and Kris Drever are fine musically and lyrically and a source of enjoyment for many. Many of these artists have grown up within and remain a part of the folk scene. Several of the artists on the list are unknown to me, but I will see if I can find their music on Youtube. I am surprised that recent albums by Daoiri Farrell and The Gloaming were not mentioned. --Stewie. |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: GUEST,JoeG Date: 12 Aug 19 - 06:13 PM I would add that all those I do know are superb so I have some faith in the shortlisting panel's choices |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: GUEST,JoeG Date: 12 Aug 19 - 06:12 PM yes of course Dick you are right you always are I just find the negative attitude to the musicians shortlisted for the awards musicians tiresome - it is as if by being short listed in some people's minds it immediately makes them less relevant to folk music. Why not applaud their success and recognise that the event increases the awareness of folk music which has to be a good thing surely? I have in the past been involved in a Yorkshire based music awards and we have always said it is about awareness raising and recognition of talent in the county, giving a chance for people to come together and celebrate the wealth of live music we have here. I see the folk awards as a similar celebration. I only know a small number of this year's finalists but I look forward to discovering those who I have not come across previously |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: The Sandman Date: 12 Aug 19 - 05:55 PM no joe, suucessful clubs are ones that are advertised well and organised well and have good residents and good regular performers, being shortlisted for an award is not in my opinion anything to do with it. you quoted a club that jez lowe was booked at that closed, jez does not perform trad material, he has a good rep as a song writer yet the club closed . where is the connection with trad music, you rr cooments make no sense, other than the club was poorlu organised and had poor floor singers , ok so if the club had been well organised and had good residents and jez had a proper length of set[ an example of bad gorganisation] you would have enjoyed the evening more, that is my point. none of which has anything to do with wide range of folk music but more to do with good quality music |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: Jim Carroll Date: 12 Aug 19 - 05:37 PM "I think it gets called folk music," It's called folk music because it was made and sung by 'the folk' - the 'ordinary' people That's how it has been documented since the 1830s when it was first applied to its sister art 'Folk' lore and 'folk' tales and 'folk' dance and all the other artistic related 'folk' arts Someone with your social and political outlook on life should be proud of that Al - not trying to explain it away Jim |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: GUEST,JoeG Date: 12 Aug 19 - 05:23 PM Fair point Dick but you don't need to shout - I suppose what I was inferring was that the people who ran the club were more interested in listening to themselves than listening to a superb crafter of songs - so yes bad organisation but my point stands - successful clubs are generally those who offer a wide range of folk music and, I would add, embrace young talent such as some of those shortlisted for the awards. |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: GUEST,alan whittle Date: 12 Aug 19 - 05:21 PM I think it gets called folk music, also because of an artistic perspective - a perspective that helps the artist with the vision for what he wants to create. Perhaps folk song is a point of reference when the artist is fashioning his work Its not really folk music - that's something that the folk decide over a period of time. But theres nothing wrong with aspiring to write a folk song or a folk tune, Creativity is good. Hurting people is bad. |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: The Sandman Date: 12 Aug 19 - 11:02 AM It is the music of the people and it is being replaced by the products of the music industry - folk music has been ripped up from the grass roots and, to me, that is a bloody shame. JIM CARROLL QUOTE well said that man |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: The Sandman Date: 12 Aug 19 - 10:32 AM joe g, you have just contradicted yourself JEZ LOWE DOES NOT PERFORM OR PERFORMS VERY LITTLE TRAD MATERIAL.yet you say the club has closed, and you suspect clubs that have closed are because they book trad artists, perhps it was that the club was not well promoted, OR BADLYORGANISED OR BECAUSE OF THE BAD FLOORSINGERS QUOTE FROM YOUR POST I would suspect that many of the folk clubs that have died are those that have been of a more traditional nature and less appealing to younger people. |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: Jim Carroll Date: 12 Aug 19 - 10:16 AM "ie traditional and contemporary folk song and music have survived and prospered" If you’re talking about ‘contemporary fol songs’ based on traditional styles – no problem – I’d lose a third of mr repertoire if I lost those SA little different from the offering from the BBC’s ‘glittering prizes’ offerings which have little or anything to do with folk songs Bad clubs and poor performances played a part in the disappearance of clubs, but I have equally walked out of poorly performed diverse, non-folk material because it was bad and because it was not what I had been told it was - two for the price of one. I wish I had a pound for every time I’d been embarrasses bus some inept singer mumbling introspection into his armpit and butchering the tune on his out of tune guitar It doesn't matter how varied singing is if it is crappily executed We ran workshops to help new singers and thereby, improve the standards of our clubs If you are suggesting that traditional clubs = bad nights or are unable to provide a variety - not my experience, I'm afraid The traditional repertoire is wide and extremely varied enough not to try to please all of the people all of the time I don't wish to sit and listen to badly or well performed Buddy Holly or Ed Sheeran songs, any more than I suspect those who do want to listen to Joe Heaney or the Stewarts songs - try to please everybody and you end up pleasing nobody - even if you hijack the term "folk" to draw your audience in - diff'rent strokes for diff'rent blokes and blokesses every time Jim |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: GUEST,JoeG Date: 12 Aug 19 - 09:20 AM An example of one that has died is a Yorkshire club where I went to see Jez Lowe perform - there were about 8 mostly appalling floor singers in each half of the night leaving Jez a very short time for each of his sets. Needless to say we never went back to that one and I imagine many other people voted with their feet. |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: GUEST,JoeG Date: 12 Aug 19 - 09:17 AM I would suspect that many of the folk clubs that have died are those that have been of a more traditional nature and less appealing to younger people (ie under 70 ;-) ) whilst those who present a diverse range of folk material ie traditional and contemporary folk song and music have survived and prospered - eg Black Swan in York, Topic in Bradford, Grove in Leeds, Uxbridge Folk Club etc |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: Jim Carroll Date: 12 Aug 19 - 08:10 AM "I get the impression there is a lot of knee-jerk sour grapes here, simple jealousy of talented people doing a good job and earning recognition for it" And I gat the impression that people will walk miles to avoid the fact that the clubs have emptied, folk music proper is further away from being popular than it ever was and the term is being used meaninglessly. Sorry FF - folk music/song is one of our most important cultural treasures and it is being stamped to death by people who seem to not want to know what it is and don't care enough to find out It is the music of the people and it is being replaced by the products of the music industry - folk music has been ripped up from the grass roots and, to me, that is a bloody shame Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: GUEST,Femme Fatale Date: 12 Aug 19 - 07:51 AM I get the impression there is a lot of knee-jerk sour grapes here, simple jealousy of talented people doing a good job and earning recognition for it. The question 'Will they be singing this in pubs in 20 years?' seems especially daft given that traditional tunes was one of the categories. Sandman: two out of ten for clarity and logic. The 'roots' of the music are a) not very well known b) dead. |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: Jim Carroll Date: 12 Aug 19 - 04:11 AM "The house of folk music has many mansions," It does of course - but all houses have walls otherwise we would be living in open fields You call something a name because that's what you are trying to promote or convey - ignoring that identification tag will send them off somewhere else - as it ihas, in thousands I'm getting very short of breath waiting for an alternative definition Jim |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: GUEST,alan whittle Date: 11 Aug 19 - 05:33 PM well it obviously doesn't suit everybody, but then...what does? Render unto Caeser what is his.. It has nothing to do with folk music as some people understand it, but then neither do I. Sticking with the sermon on the mount. The house of folk music has many mansions, this wing is not of interest to some folk. |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: GUEST Date: 11 Aug 19 - 03:17 PM John MacKenzie wrote: "Smooth Ops ?" Not any more. They've been called 7Digital for a few years (same company though). |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: John MacKenzie Date: 11 Aug 19 - 01:57 PM Smooth Ops ? |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: GUEST,Akenaton Date: 11 Aug 19 - 01:57 PM Sandman is a great performer who is generous with advice and assistance to musicians and all with an interest in folk music. I am sure that he believes, as I do, that our music is about much more than simple delivery or even the wish for fame and fortune. An understanding of traditional music can make us all better people. Most of today's young performers have never developed that understanding, as they have never known want, or felt the strength of music as a balm against hardship. Prosperity kills more than it propagates. |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: The Sandman Date: 11 Aug 19 - 12:03 PM I get confused and a tad annoyed when people decry 'commercialisation' of 'folk revivals'. Carry on getting annoyed if you must, have you thought of taking up yoga.I said quote "This idea of turning the uk folk revival into some sort of musical reality show benefits the roots of the music little, it benefits the agents bent on commercialising the music." If You think commercialising the music benefits the roots of the music,perhaps, femme fatale you might like to elucidate how it does that. carry on being a silly billy if you must carry on getting a tad annoyed or perhaps take up some hobby that keeps you calm |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: GUEST,alan whittle Date: 11 Aug 19 - 11:49 AM you can say that again |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: Jim Carroll Date: 11 Aug 19 - 07:40 AM "Jim's definitions usually seem to be framed so as to include the works of Ewan Maccoll etc" I don’t have a personal definition, folk song is far too well defined for me to need one Take on folk song is pretty well those that launched the revival way back in the early fifties and kept the scene alive into the late eighties I don't need a 'definition' to know what folk song is - it is what i says it is - the music of the folk that kept the songs alive for centuries and probably made most of them in the first place - the farmers, sailors, soldiers, land labourers, factory workers, poachers, transportees.... all substantiated in the repertoire as the 'folk personnel' If you don't know what folk song is - go read one of the many hundreds of books that have ben written on the subject - in Britain, in America, Scandinavia, Easter and Western Europe.... wherever folk song has been art of people's lives. I liked what MacColl did to folk songs and loved the way he used folk forms to create new songs - I am still in awe of the masses of research he dos on understanding and performing folk songs - latterly with The Critics Group All this has nothing to do with my defining what folk songs is - I knew I was on to something unique and important shortly after I walked though the door of my first folk club at the beginning of the 1960s - and what was more important, so did thousands of others like me who filled the clubs - in Liverpool, Manchester, London - and all the other places we put our selves about to go and listen to folk song - we knew what folk song was when we opened up our copies of 'The Penguin Book of English Folk Song - that remains the good introductory collection it was when it was first published in 1959 (an Lloyd's Folk song in England remains the magnificent inspration study it was when it was published around a decade later) The clubs began to fall away when it became to leave a folk club without having heard a folk song, or anything resembling one - when they became cultural dustbins to throw in anything they couldn't think of a name for I know what folk song is and can spend hours talking about is (as I have down the years) If it has suddenly become something else, somebody needs to tell us what it is and quick, before it is lost to us altogether This faffing around a sprinting off at the rate of knots whenever 'definition' is mentioned is going to do more damage than it has already done - if that were possible Your starter for ten - What do you people think 'folk song' means Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: Jim Carroll Date: 11 Aug 19 - 07:40 AM "Jim's definitions usually seem to be framed so as to include the works of Ewan Maccoll etc" I don’t have a personal definition, folk song is far too well defined for me to need one Take on folk song is pretty well those that launched the revival way back in the early fifties and kept the scene alive into the late eighties I don't need a 'definition' to know what folk song is - it is what i says it is - the music of the folk that kept the songs alive for centuries and probably made most of them in the first place - the farmers, sailors, soldiers, land labourers, factory workers, poachers, transportees.... all substantiated in the repertoire as the 'folk personnel' If you don't know what folk song is - go read one of the many hundreds of books that have ben written on the subject - in Britain, in America, Scandinavia, Easter and Western Europe.... wherever folk song has been art of people's lives. I liked what MacColl did to folk songs and loved the way he used folk forms to create new songs - I am still in awe of the masses of research he dos on understanding and performing folk songs - latterly with The Critics Group All this has nothing to do with my defining what folk songs is - I knew I was on to something unique and important shortly after I walked though the door of my first folk club at the beginning of the 1960s - and what was more important, so did thousands of others like me who filled the clubs - in Liverpool, Manchester, London - and all the other places we put our selves about to go and listen to folk song - we knew what folk song was when we opened up our copies of 'The Penguin Book of English Folk Song - that remains the good introductory collection it was when it was first published in 1959 (an Lloyd's Folk song in England remains the magnificent inspration study it was when it was published around a decade later) The clubs began to fall away when it became to leave a folk club without having heard a folk song, or anything resembling one - when they became cultural dustbins to throw in anything they couldn't think of a name for I know what folk song is and can spend hours talking about is (as I have down the years) If it has suddenly become something else, somebody needs to tell us what it is and quick, before it is lost to us altogether This faffing around a sprinting off at the rate of knots whenever 'definition' is mentioned is going to do more damage than it has already done - if that were possible Your starter for ten - What do you people think 'folk song' means Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: GUEST,ST Date: 11 Aug 19 - 07:06 AM One of my criteria in my own personal rating of performers as ‘folk’ (and avoiding the usual ‘What is folk, definition problems) is that I’ve seen them ‘au naturel’. I’ve always been impressed by those ‘professionals’ who get down to their local sessions and take their turn in a singaround with the rest of us. It’s one of the things that makes ‘folk’ special to me (and, yes, I’m sure there are plenty of other genres that it could be applied to as well.) Thankfully, I could list a fair few reasonably well-known names who seem quite happy just to drop in to their local sessions, although none of the nominees above is on it – but, to be fair, that may just be that I don’t live near any of them. I realise that, if you’re performing for a living, you probably won’t want, or perhaps be able, to spend all your free time doing what you’re doing for a job but there are singers/musicians that I’ve seen over the years that seem to be happy to drop in from time to time, perhaps attending because they enjoy the music and even enjoy the idea of what they do being ‘of the folk’ and being part of this themselves. Perhaps there should be a ‘folk awards’ category for ‘stars’ who also take the time to be ‘folk’. |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: GUEST,Femme Fatale Date: 11 Aug 19 - 06:45 AM On the need for definitions, my thoughts are as follows: 1 Jim's definitions usually seem to be framed so as to include the works of Ewan Maccoll etc, a revivalist who was 'in the business' - and probably suffer in terms of this. 2 Jim's points about definitions are based on what seems to be a naïve view of the nature of definitions, especially when it comes to defining a complex cultural phenomenon such as 'folk music' - whatever that is. Have a ponder of this introduction to the problem: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/definitions/ Other than that, have a nice day, and enjoy the suggested listening in the opening link. |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: GUEST,Femme Fatale Date: 11 Aug 19 - 06:03 AM Thanks, Freddy Headey, for pointing me in the direction of some enjoyable pieces. I get confused and a tad annoyed when people decry 'commercialisation' of 'folk revivals'. Take away any commercial element and you have more or less nothing left: no venues involving payment, no music lessons involving payment, no recordings involving payment (including paying for the equipment etc), no publishing of 'research' on web sites which at the end of the day are paid for not free. The three drunks in the bar were presumably drunk on beer they had paid for, in premises for which rent was paid. |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: GUEST,Joe G Date: 11 Aug 19 - 05:46 AM Guest - my comment wasn't aimed at you - it was aimed at those who belittle the achievements and musical talent of others. |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: GUEST,alan whittle Date: 11 Aug 19 - 05:14 AM I thought I was trying to be positive. |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: The Sandman Date: 11 Aug 19 - 03:46 AM its all a codswallop or as they used to say in suffolk a load of squit, and emphasise how the uk folk revival is being diverted by some fools into a musical railway siding. i was in a bar last week in rural ireland playing music and was joined by some instrumentalists aged nine years old or thereabouts who were excellent and playing purely for enjoyment. This idea of turning the uk folk revival into some sort of musical reality show benefits the roots of the music little, it benefits the agents bent on commercialising the music. |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: GUEST Date: 10 Aug 19 - 06:00 PM I just ignore them and get on with enjoying folk music. There are far more important things in life to get worked up about. |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: GUEST,Joe G Date: 10 Aug 19 - 02:23 PM It would be nice if instead of criticising these musicians some of you were more supportive of them. I find the narrow minded, anal attitude on here truly appalling sometimes. A shame as there are many worthwhile contributions from people who love music and don't belittle mostly younger musicians' contributions to the rich tapestry of folk music in the UK |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: GUEST,alan whittle Date: 10 Aug 19 - 12:31 PM well lets hope we're all wrong and that folk music and the BBC produce something or other that's worthwhile. I tend to think the music will endure, whatever crimes are committed against it. People need to express themselves through unsupervised forms of music making and aongwriting. And that will be folk music - whether we grant it that term or not. |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: GUEST Date: 10 Aug 19 - 12:16 PM dead right Akenton, it's showbiz- the commercial abuse of the people's music carries on but this crap has little to do with OUR music |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: GUEST,akenaton Date: 10 Aug 19 - 09:26 AM It's not even a showcase, it's a coffin. The essence of folk music was always audience participation, regardless of whether that audience was hundreds or three folk in a bar; and participation didn't only mean beltin' oot the choruses, but sharing the feelings of the singer or performer....Ive heard wee drunk men bringing a rowdy pub to silence and many to tears by what they projected in the way of real honest tae god music. |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: GUEST,Derrick Date: 10 Aug 19 - 09:01 AM I agree with vic and Johnny a showcase would be a far better description. The winner of the folk awards is the best entrant to the show,not the best performer on the scene. My choice of best performer may be totally different to yours,not better or worse,just different. |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: Vic Smith Date: 10 Aug 19 - 08:15 AM we would be just as well to do away with the competitive side of things and call it a "Show Case" as they really just represent the needs and whims of the media, commercial interested organisations and so on. Well said Johnny! A showcase is what they are. The nominees all come from vested interests and many valued contributors young and old do not find themselves ever mentioned. Have people like Martyn Wyndham-Read and Sara Grey who have been brilliant performers in folk clubs for over a half a century ever been mentioned? I forget the number of times that - as a club organiser - I was contacted by young award winners who wanted a first appearance at our club at a massive fee and I had to point out that the awards had no significance in putting bums of seats in a town where they had never appeared before. They seemed to find that puzzling; the award entitled them to big fees. I suggested that if there were so popular, why did they not just come for 80% of the door take and they would make a pile of money? Some agents would go for this (they were on a %age) but the young artists booking for themselves never did. I have always regarded the Folk Awards as worthless; a sham. I didn't come into folk music wanting to know that Packie Byrne was a better singer than Margaret Barry; that Lizzie Higgins would be an award winner and that Belle Stewart wasn't. I was just glad that I was able to book all of them and many more great singers at our club. |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: GUEST,Femme Fatale Date: 10 Aug 19 - 07:55 AM hypo? |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: GUEST,Femme Fatale Date: 10 Aug 19 - 07:54 AM eeeeeeeeeeuw |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: Jim Carroll Date: 10 Aug 19 - 07:20 AM THank you FF - you have won my heat Jim |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: GUEST,Femme Fatale Date: 10 Aug 19 - 07:04 AM Definitely opposed to trutsing …… |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: Jim Carroll Date: 10 Aug 19 - 06:45 AM ""Hands Up For Trad" equivalent is just as meaningless." Yet another straw man - the two are not comparable Folk has always had a trad connotation, thou few wish a purely trad scene, I'm delighted to say - it would wipe out a third of my repertoire The problem is that the term has become totally meaningless in its usage by people who appear neither to understand it or to like what they do understand Personally, having seen up close the massive damage that the 'glittering prizes' approach has inflicted on the music, I would be happy to see it disappear altogether, but having observed the quality and intelligence of the Gradam Irish Award system and its recipients, maybe there is room for it as long as it doesn't become the be-all and end-all Our music has to stay in the hands of people who know it, understand it and love it if it is to survive The Beeb have long proved themselves not to be the safest hands to truts it with Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: Johnny J Date: 10 Aug 19 - 06:32 AM The complaint a few years ago was that the awards were full of "tired" old names and nothing really changed from year to year. Nowadays, with a few exceptions, the list seems to be full of "flavours of the month". Having said that, there are one or two worth nominees in there. So, you can't really win with "Awards" and our own "Hands Up For Trad" equivalent is just as meaningless. If the idea is just to "showcase" the variety of music on offer and to highlight certain acts and organisations who might otherwise be overlooked, then that's fair enough. However, we would be just as well to do away with the competitive side of things and call it a "Show Case" as they really just represent the needs and whims of the media, commercial interested organisations and so on. |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: Jim Carroll Date: 10 Aug 19 - 06:01 AM Thank you Dick - consider yourself lucky about Tunbridge! What has happened to Folk music on teh fok scene is it ha been robbed of its beutiful and important uniqueness because it has been de-defined - if it can't be defined it no longer possesses an identity - a crying shame Definitions are necessary for those of us who expect to get what we are looking for - that't not "narrow", it's common sense Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: The Sandman Date: 10 Aug 19 - 04:51 AM I agree with Jim, furthermore I am disgusted and i am not from tunbridge wellsssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: Jim Carroll Date: 10 Aug 19 - 04:31 AM "There are even traditional songs on the list for God's sake!" Thomas Beecham conducted folk songs - didn't make the way they were played "folk" The fact that a few good ones may slip though the net is unimportant - the general presented picture is one of pop pap Putting folk music (the voice of the people) into te hands of a monolithic unanswerable Corporation is self harm - as shown by the decline of the clubs. Healthy folk is like good sex - far better done then watched - that is what has disappeared from the folk scene and it is complacent not to recognise that we, as the participants our clubs onc gave us the opportunity to be, have been relegated to the position of observers - watchers of a star-system from afar My view of folk songs is afr from narrow - it encompasses the world traditions - not introspective strumners I can define what I believe to be folk song and can point yopu to libraries full of evidence to back my view up - that's hw "narrow" it is I doubt if you can produce a single definition which would gain general assent "The voice of the people" will do for me Jim |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: GUEST,JoeG Date: 10 Aug 19 - 04:11 AM Sorry Jim but your comment 'there's nothing I recognise as folk in any form or description they are indistinguishable from the pop music that we set up the clubs to escape from' is, especially the second part of the comment, quite frankly ridiculous. How do you reckon that the beautiful kora and harp playing of Catrin Finch & Seckou Keita is like pop music. Or the deeply rooted folk songs of Karine Polwart or Kris Forever. There are even traditional songs on the list for God's sake! I'm afraid you are once again applying your incredibly narrow interpretation of folk to denigrate these awards (and thus the artists nominated). They have every right to be included in the folk awards which fortunately have a wider appreciation of what is folk music. I wish them all the best of luck. |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: Jim Carroll Date: 10 Aug 19 - 03:22 AM An old argument worth following up The BBC have have served folk badly down the years, (excellent in patches occasionally) now they seem to be in the position to decide what is bad and what is good Going through the list of winners, there's nothing I recognise as folk in any form or description they are indistinguishable from the pop music that we set up the clubs to escape from - whether you like what they are is immaterial, they ain't folk The disappearance of the clubs tore the heart out of the folk scene, (I am told an estimate of 186 is "healthy estimate of their number now); festivals came nowhere near to replacing them and some of the best of them have long rode off into the sunset - even FRoots seems to have bombed Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: GUEST,Joe G Date: 09 Aug 19 - 07:01 PM Sorry Ake but you are talking nonsense again - folk is probably in a healthier state than it has been for many years with tremendous (And young) artists raising the profile of the music. |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: GUEST,akenaton Date: 09 Aug 19 - 06:07 PM Modern "folk" has become so dire and lifeless that nobody really cares Ray. Some of these new people are good musicians one or two can actually sing as if they meant it, but there is no attempt at inclusiveness. Its all introverted nonsense......the me, me, me, I wanna be famous syndrome. I've started listening to street musicians like Tuba Skinny from N'orleans, that's folk music. |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: GUEST,Joe G Date: 09 Aug 19 - 05:57 PM '"Will they be singing this in the pubs in 20 years?" Answer is, NO.' You would probably have said that about Streets of London, John There are some excellent artists, songs & albums nominated. Good luck to those shortlisted - ignore any negativity here |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: GUEST,henryp Date: 09 Aug 19 - 04:34 PM We're off to Whitby on Saturday. We've been saving all year. |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: John MacKenzie Date: 09 Aug 19 - 03:45 PM Better than the £6 I paid in one Whitby pub. |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: Dave Hanson Date: 09 Aug 19 - 03:10 PM I play in a session in a pub every Monday night, I don't know if the landlord gives the musicians a special price but all beer is £2.50 a pint, and free sandwiches. At our regular Thursday session in a different pub bitter is £2.80 and Guiness £3.30 Very reasonable methinks. Dave H |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: John MacKenzie Date: 09 Aug 19 - 02:57 PM Blame the death of the landlord, and the arrival of the tenant, with targets to meet each month, set by the brewers, and when they at last manage to reach that target, why their rent rises, and the target goes up too. SKY TV seems to have taken the place of singing in most pubs anyway. I certainly can't afford to drink in most pubs. What price folk music in "inns" Hilaire ? |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: Vic Smith Date: 08 Aug 19 - 02:31 PM I agree totally with the Belloc quotation but if pubs continue to close at the rate they have in the last decade, there will be very few left in 20 years time. |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: GUEST,FloraG Date: 08 Aug 19 - 08:36 AM I hope to spend Broadstairs supporting the pubs with regular drinking and the festival with a bit of busking. However, its difficult to fight the property developers when the value of a pub is worth more as flats. FloraG |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: Dave Hanson Date: 08 Aug 19 - 07:34 AM When you have lost your Inns, drown your empty selves, you will have lost the best of England. Hilaire Beloc. Dave H |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: Rain Dog Date: 08 Aug 19 - 06:54 AM "Will there be pubs in 20 years?" I bloody hope so. |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: Vic Smith Date: 08 Aug 19 - 06:37 AM Will there be pubs in 20 years? |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: GUEST,FloraG Date: 08 Aug 19 - 05:55 AM Will there be any pubs that have live singing in 20 years? FloraG. |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: John MacKenzie Date: 08 Aug 19 - 05:15 AM We're just gobsmacked at how much BBC Radio 2 Folk, have got their finger on the pulse of folk music today. To quote another thread, "Will they be singing this in the pubs in 20 years?" Answer is, NO. |
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Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: r.padgett Date: 08 Aug 19 - 04:51 AM The response to this mudcat posting and mine on facebook is a bit quiet to say the least ~ is anyone interested? Ray |
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Subject: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 From: FreddyHeadey Date: 05 Aug 19 - 01:01 PM fwiw "The nominees for the BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019 are as follows: Folk Singer of the Year • Gwilym Bowen Rhys • Lisa O'Neill • Olivia Chaney • Ríoghnach Connolly Best Duo or Group • Catrin Finch & Seckou Keita • Stick in the Wheel • The Breath • The Rheingans Sisters The Horizon Award • Brìghde Chaimbeul • Kinnaris Quintet • Kitty Macfarlane • The Trials Of Cato Best Traditional Track • Factory Girl by Lisa O'Neill ft. Radie Peat • Ffoles Llantrisant by VRï • The Foggy Dew by Ye Vagabonds • The Reedcutter's Daughter by Jimmy Aldridge & Sid Goldsmith Best Original Track • Blackbird by Lisa O'Neill • I Burn But I Am Not Consumed by Karine Polwart • Spells Out by Kathryn Tickell & The Darkening • Scapa Flow 1919 by Kris Drever Best Album • Ancora by Flook • Heard a Long Gone Song by Lisa O’Neill • Hide and Hair by The Trials of Cato • Soar by Catrin Finch & Seckou Keita Musician of the Year • Jenn Butterworth • Mohsen Amini • Sam Sweeney • Seckou Keita " - https://www.bbc.co.uk/mediacentre/latestnews/2019/bbc-radio-2-folk-awards-2019-manchester playlist https://open.spotify.com/playlist/41SsScC3k4TdZmMseuEhvR?si=Eobsa5keSziU9nqBWxk6sw 'Best Album' is the only category with a public vote. four nominees : Catrin Finch & Seckou Keita – Soar Flook – Ancora Lisa O’Neill – Heard a Long Gone Song The Trials Of Cato – Hide and Hair https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/6qBqcNXDxYyzwjY2XhPFjs/radio-2-folk-awards-2019-best-album-vote The programme will be 16th October https://www.bbc.co.uk/schedules/p00fzl8v/2019/10/16#evening Tickets - Bridgewater Hall, Manchester https://www.bridgewater-hall.co.uk/whats-on/bbc-radio-2-folk-awards-161019/ |
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