BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Aug 19 - 04:15 AM

Sorry joe, I gave an example of a folk song [the bold fisherman], do you agree that the bold fisherman is a folk song, why is that narrow you have not answered my question is peggy sue a classical composition?.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Aug 19 - 04:09 AM

joe g are you going to call this jazz or classical music, slim whitmanhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LY-_-U5-rP4

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 15 Aug 19 - 04:08 AM

Yes but all the finalists in the Folk Awards perform a form of traditional or contemporary folk music

You two stick to your narrow, view of what folk music is and I'll stick to my broader approach - one that is generally accepted by most successful and enduring folk clubs, festivals and record labels

Time has moved on and I'm very glad we have a surfeit of fabulous traditional and contemporary folk to listen to and celebrate

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Aug 19 - 03:57 AM

Iam going on a summers holiday by cliff richard is not a classical music composition neither is buddy holly singing peggy sue a classical composition.
royal garden blues is jazz , not classical music
lucille is a country composition not a classical compostion, these are definitions.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 15 Aug 19 - 03:42 AM

Have you guys not heard of evolution? Like most firms of art folk music evolves and changes. To use Jim's 'classical' music analogy the soundworld of James McMillan, Arvo Part and other contemporary composers is very different from Mozart but they are still regarded as contemporary 'classical' composers by many in the same way that the many of the artists shortlisted in the awards are contemporary folk artists

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Aug 19 - 03:29 AM

Well Said Jim.this is what i consider a folk song
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_hdYgzjdKU

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Aug 19 - 03:13 AM

As far as I am concerned, there is little that can be done about clubs indifferent enough to what damage has been done to both folk songs and the folk scene to continue to pass off whatever they fancy as "folk" (without being able to define the term), but, in my opinion, a licenced finaned organisation like the BBC needs to be held to account for their behaviour towards one of the most important of our performing arts.
If they tried to pass off any old sound as 'Classical' there's be screams of protest from Glyndebourne to The Albert Hall

I caught the tail end of the 2019 Eisteddfod last night (never a fan of this, but at least it was musical) and was appalled at the dreadful mush that was being passed off as Welsh Traditional'
It seems the disease is spreading
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Aug 19 - 01:44 PM

Ido not agree with these awards regardless of the winners.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019
From: r.padgett
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 01:45 PM

Yes yes I would have to agree regarding non nomination of Grannys Attic and Cohen Braithwaite Kilcoyne ~ this young man was overlooked last year I think ~he is a very talented musician and singer in great demand ~ his introductions and confidence have improved greatly

So ~lets see what happens now

Ray

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 12:13 PM

RTE announced their inaugural Folk Awards in 2018. Just out of curiosity, here are the winners.

Best Folk Singer - Radie Peat
Best Traditional Folk Track - Bean Dubh A’ Ghleanna – Muireann Nic Amhlaoibh
Best Folk Instrumentalist - Martin Hayes
Hall of Fame - Tom Munnelly
Hall of Fame - John Reilly
Best Original Folk Track - Along the Western Seaboard – Declan O’Rourke
Best Folk Album - Haven - We Banjo 3
Best Emerging Folk Artist - Emma Langford
Best Folk Group - Lankum
Lifetime Achievement Award - Andy Irvine

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 10:26 AM

For many years my reaction to the phrase 'singer-songwriter' has been to groan (yes there are many good, even excellent ones)- I now 4xperience a similar reaction to 'award-winning' and after hearing some of the bilge coming out of the Edinburgh Festival. I think I'll add 'stand-up comedian' - oh, and ACCLAIMED in any context equals AVOID AT ALL COSTS....

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019
From: BruceL
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 09:40 AM

People might be interested in the BBC Folk Awards rules - always instructive to see how decisions are arrived at and who they are made by. One extract from the 2018 Awards [I can't find the 2019 ones online] - "The Voting Panel is made up of approximately 150 people. The Panel is comprised of those persons who have a professional or semi-professional interest in folk music, i.e. journalists, broadcasters, festival and club organisers, venue bookers, record company personnel, folk music academics, etc." The full rules for 2019 are at the BBC Website. https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/c7mfYt17wxPXmfdttl7HDS/folk-awards-rules

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019
From: r.padgett
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 08:15 AM

Yea great stuff Vic Smith ~ really great to go to the KIT session Sheffield (Kelham Island Tavern) and young thrusters and oldies taking their turns in an unaccompanied sing of largely trad songs

Ray

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019
From: Vic Smith
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 06:07 AM

Guest ST wrote:-
I’ve always been impressed by those ‘professionals’ who get down to their local sessions and take their turn in a singaround with the rest of us. It’s one of the things that makes ‘folk’ special to me (and, yes, I’m sure there are plenty of other genres that it could be applied to as well.)

I was at a really excellent song and tune session in the village of Partridge Green in Sussex a couple of weeks ago. The 40+ people there packed out the room. Martyn Wyndham-Read and Iris Bishop were sitting quietly there - but they only got their two songs along with the rest of us.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019
From: Vic Smith
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 05:58 AM

Sometime ago (but I have been too busy to respond) Joe G.wrote:-
It would be nice if instead of criticising these musicians some of you were more supportive of them. I find the narrow minded, anal attitude on here truly appalling sometimes. A shame as there are many worthwhile contributions from people who love music and don't belittle mostly younger musicians' contributions to the rich tapestry of folk music in the UK

I would suggest that Joe has got hold of the wrong end of the stick. I read most of the criticism of the Folk Awards here as coming from those who think that an "award" being chosen by a small coterie of music professionals does not have any value or validity. I agree that there are many exciting young performers that have emerged on the scene and it gladdens my heart when I hear them; I booked Matt Quinn when he was still a schoolboy and Hazel & Emily Askew both still at school and driven to the gig by their father when they did their first gig for us. But I don't want to hear that one has an award and the other doesn't. I can't see the point when we should just be delighted that talented young singer/musicians have chosen traditional song and music because of their love of it. Why compare? Just be glad that we have that those three and many others have developed into admirable performers and people.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 05:26 AM

Double royalties Rigby, double royalties. Or perhaps a bigger share of said royalties, when there is no writer to pay.

Trad arr MacKenzie

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 04:53 AM

There is a still a lot to feel strongly about! No doubt singers today have the same urge to tell a story as the older singers.

Some, of course, will express themselves better than others. As ever, time will weed out the weaker songs.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019
From: Rigby
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 04:45 AM

On a slight tangent, I'm puzzled by the number of people who come to prominence as good singers of traditional songs, then switch to performing mostly self-written material that often isn't much cop and never record the traditional material that attracted attention in the first place. Is there more money in being a mediocre singer-songwriter than in being a good singer of traditional song? Or is it that they always planned to have careers as singer-songwriters and just used the folk scene as a springboard?

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019
From: Acorn4
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 04:19 AM

Really surprised Granny's Attic weren't included at some point.

I know they are not new kids on the block any more but they are still on the bill at most of the big festivals.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019
From: r.padgett
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 04:15 AM

Not to mention the Sheffield based younger folkies eg Rosie Hood, Molly Pipe, Matt Quinn, Jesse and Richard Arrowsmith, The Davenports family etc

Ray

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019
From: r.padgett
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 04:10 AM

Yes I am aware of the Awards categories and the strength and depth of "artists" is very deep and the quality very high ~ ppl go to folk festivals to do their thing dancing singing story telling, playing tunes and not necessarily to hear the newest bright you things

My view is that traditional folk should be the base ~ song writing is contemporary folk and good songs do rise to the surface ~ O'Hooley and Tidow with Gentleman Jack?

All food for thought

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019
From: GUEST,alan whittle
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 04:08 AM

doesn't exactly set your mind on fire, does it?

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019
From: r.padgett
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 04:02 AM

Well at least I helped flag up Radio 2 Folk programme and its annual awards programme

Once again it seems no televised version ~ this for me is an opportunity missed

seen some great acts recently at Warwick and Saltburn who are "doing it"

selection Martin Windham Read and Iris Bishop, Bill Adair, Keith Donnelly, Miriam Backhouse, Chris Sherburn & Denny and Emily, the Hut People, Tom McConville, Dog Watch, Monkeys Fist, The Wilsons, Les Barker
Stan Accrington,Paul Walker & Karen Pfeiffer, Flossie and whole hog full of local heroes wherever you go

One wonders if the Awards nominees has a regional bias ~ well I don't know!! or perhaps the nominators have a different agenda?

Ray

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 03:40 AM

It is not 'negative' to suggest that those on the list receiving awards are not singing folk songs - that is just stating a fact
This is not to say they couldn't if they tried - but no sign of it here
We met and talked to Lisa O'Neill at the premier of the Joe Heaney film, 'Man of Granite'
Her singing in the film was excellent - a far cry from her award winning, drearily dragged out, dirgy 'Factory Girl'
If you are going to award a competent singer it needs to be for good singing.
The Awards are just the BBC being the BBC and capitalising on something of which they neither have knowledge or interest (any more - they once did have, in spades)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 03:31 AM

Daoiri is "folk" to his bootstraps regardless of how you define it. Watching and listening to him perform gives one an instant connection to the music.....it's all about emotion and connecting people to the music.
I have been listening to Daoiri a lot over the last few years.....and you know it when you hear it.
I would just add that not everyone is capable of showing or feeling raw emotion....the younger generation are generally deficient, of perhaps conditioned to suppress it.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Aug 19 - 03:28 AM

no as far as i am concerned it is nothing to do with anyones music but the principle is of this sort of award.I think these ards are not a good idea, what has that got to do with anyonesmusic , i am no more always right than you, you sanctimonious troll,i just have a different opinion to you, that is known as free speech

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019
From: Stewie
Date: 12 Aug 19 - 09:17 PM

Joe, I agree totally with your comment about the 'negative attitude'. I agree that the competitive aspect is meaningless, but if the list draws attention to some fine music, well and good. To describe the output of excellent performers as 'crap', 'pop pap', 'introspective strummers', 'codswallop', 'commercial abuse of people's music' etc is simply ridiculous. Whatever label you care to hang on them, the recent albums by Lisa O'Neill, Stick in the Wheel, Ye Vagabonds, The Trials of Cato, Karine Polwart and Kris Drever are fine musically and lyrically and a source of enjoyment for many. Many of these artists have grown up within and remain a part of the folk scene. Several of the artists on the list are unknown to me, but I will see if I can find their music on Youtube. I am surprised that recent albums by Daoiri Farrell and The Gloaming were not mentioned.

--Stewie.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019
From: GUEST,JoeG
Date: 12 Aug 19 - 06:13 PM

I would add that all those I do know are superb so I have some faith in the shortlisting panel's choices

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019
From: GUEST,JoeG
Date: 12 Aug 19 - 06:12 PM

yes of course Dick you are right you always are

I just find the negative attitude to the musicians shortlisted for the awards musicians tiresome - it is as if by being short listed in some people's minds it immediately makes them less relevant to folk music.

Why not applaud their success and recognise that the event increases the awareness of folk music which has to be a good thing surely? I have in the past been involved in a Yorkshire based music awards and we have always said it is about awareness raising and recognition of talent in the county, giving a chance for people to come together and celebrate the wealth of live music we have here. I see the folk awards as a similar celebration. I only know a small number of this year's finalists but I look forward to discovering those who I have not come across previously

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Aug 19 - 05:55 PM

no joe, suucessful clubs are ones that are advertised well and organised well and have   good residents and good regular performers, being shortlisted for an award is not in my opinion anything to do with it. you quoted a club that jez lowe was booked at that closed, jez does not perform trad material, he has a good rep as a song writer yet the club closed . where is the connection with trad music, you rr cooments make no sense, other than the club was poorlu organised and had poor floor singers , ok so if the club had been well organised and had good residents and jez had a proper length of set[ an example of bad gorganisation] you would have enjoyed the evening more, that is my point. none of which has anything to do with wide range of folk music but more to do with good quality music

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 19 - 05:37 PM

"I think it gets called folk music,"
It's called folk music because it was made and sung by 'the folk' - the 'ordinary' people
That's how it has been documented since the 1830s when it was first applied to its sister art 'Folk' lore and 'folk' tales and 'folk' dance and all the other artistic related 'folk' arts
Someone with your social and political outlook on life should be proud of that Al - not trying to explain it away
Jim

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019
From: GUEST,JoeG
Date: 12 Aug 19 - 05:23 PM

Fair point Dick but you don't need to shout - I suppose what I was inferring was that the people who ran the club were more interested in listening to themselves than listening to a superb crafter of songs - so yes bad organisation but my point stands - successful clubs are generally those who offer a wide range of folk music and, I would add, embrace young talent such as some of those shortlisted for the awards.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019
From: GUEST,alan whittle
Date: 12 Aug 19 - 05:21 PM

I think it gets called folk music, also because of an artistic perspective - a perspective that helps the artist with the vision for what he wants to create. Perhaps folk song is a point of reference when the artist is fashioning his work

Its not really folk music - that's something that the folk decide over a period of time. But theres nothing wrong with aspiring to write a folk song or a folk tune,

Creativity is good. Hurting people is bad.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Aug 19 - 11:02 AM

It is the music of the people and it is being replaced by the products of the music industry - folk music has been ripped up from the grass roots and, to me, that is a bloody shame. JIM CARROLL QUOTE
well said that man

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Aug 19 - 10:32 AM

joe g, you have just contradicted yourself JEZ LOWE DOES NOT PERFORM OR PERFORMS VERY LITTLE TRAD MATERIAL.yet you say the club has closed, and you suspect clubs that have closed are because they book trad artists, perhps it was that the club was not well promoted, OR BADLYORGANISED OR BECAUSE OF THE BAD FLOORSINGERS QUOTE FROM YOUR POST

I would suspect that many of the folk clubs that have died are those that have been of a more traditional nature and less appealing to younger people.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 19 - 10:16 AM

"ie traditional and contemporary folk song and music have survived and prospered"
If you’re talking about ‘contemporary fol songs’ based on traditional styles – no problem – I’d lose a third of mr repertoire if I lost those
SA little different from the offering from the BBC’s ‘glittering prizes’ offerings which have little or anything to do with folk songs   

Bad clubs and poor performances played a part in the disappearance of clubs, but I have equally walked out of poorly performed diverse, non-folk material because it was bad and because it was not what I had been told it was - two for the price of one.
I wish I had a pound for every time I’d been embarrasses bus some inept singer mumbling introspection into his armpit and butchering the tune on his out of tune guitar
It doesn't matter how varied singing is if it is crappily executed
We ran workshops to help new singers and thereby, improve the standards of our clubs

If you are suggesting that traditional clubs = bad nights or are unable to provide a variety - not my experience, I'm afraid
The traditional repertoire is wide and extremely varied enough not to try to please all of the people all of the time
I don't wish to sit and listen to badly or well performed Buddy Holly or Ed Sheeran songs, any more than I suspect those who do want to listen to Joe Heaney or the Stewarts songs - try to please everybody and you end up pleasing nobody - even if you hijack the term "folk" to draw your audience in - diff'rent strokes for diff'rent blokes and blokesses every time
Jim

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019
From: GUEST,JoeG
Date: 12 Aug 19 - 09:20 AM

An example of one that has died is a Yorkshire club where I went to see Jez Lowe perform - there were about 8 mostly appalling floor singers in each half of the night leaving Jez a very short time for each of his sets.

Needless to say we never went back to that one and I imagine many other people voted with their feet.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019
From: GUEST,JoeG
Date: 12 Aug 19 - 09:17 AM

I would suspect that many of the folk clubs that have died are those that have been of a more traditional nature and less appealing to younger people (ie under 70 ;-) ) whilst those who present a diverse range of folk material ie traditional and contemporary folk song and music have survived and prospered - eg Black Swan in York, Topic in Bradford, Grove in Leeds, Uxbridge Folk Club etc

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 19 - 08:10 AM

"I get the impression there is a lot of knee-jerk sour grapes here, simple jealousy of talented people doing a good job and earning recognition for it"
And I gat the impression that people will walk miles to avoid the fact that the clubs have emptied, folk music proper is further away from being popular than it ever was and the term is being used meaninglessly.
Sorry FF - folk music/song is one of our most important cultural treasures and it is being stamped to death by people who seem to not want to know what it is and don't care enough to find out
It is the music of the people and it is being replaced by the products of the music industry - folk music has been ripped up from the grass roots and, to me, that is a bloody shame
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019
From: GUEST,Femme Fatale
Date: 12 Aug 19 - 07:51 AM

I get the impression there is a lot of knee-jerk sour grapes here, simple jealousy of talented people doing a good job and earning recognition for it.

The question 'Will they be singing this in pubs in 20 years?' seems especially daft given that traditional tunes was one of the categories.

Sandman: two out of ten for clarity and logic. The 'roots' of the music are a) not very well known b) dead.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 19 - 04:11 AM

"The house of folk music has many mansions,"
It does of course - but all houses have walls otherwise we would be living in open fields
You call something a name because that's what you are trying to promote or convey - ignoring that identification tag will send them off somewhere else - as it ihas, in thousands
I'm getting very short of breath waiting for an alternative definition
Jim

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019
From: GUEST,alan whittle
Date: 11 Aug 19 - 05:33 PM

well it obviously doesn't suit everybody, but then...what does?

Render unto Caeser what is his..

It has nothing to do with folk music as some people understand it, but then neither do I.

Sticking with the sermon on the mount.
The house of folk music has many mansions, this wing is not of interest to some folk.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Aug 19 - 03:17 PM

John MacKenzie wrote: "Smooth Ops ?"

Not any more. They've been called 7Digital for a few years (same company though).

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 11 Aug 19 - 01:57 PM

Smooth Ops ?

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019
From: GUEST,Akenaton
Date: 11 Aug 19 - 01:57 PM

Sandman is a great performer who is generous with advice and assistance to musicians and all with an interest in folk music. I am sure that he believes, as I do, that our music is about much more than simple delivery or even the wish for fame and fortune. An understanding of traditional music can make us all better people.
Most of today's young performers have never developed that understanding, as they have never known want, or felt the strength of music as a balm against hardship.
Prosperity kills more than it propagates.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Aug 19 - 12:03 PM

I get confused and a tad annoyed when people decry 'commercialisation' of 'folk revivals'.
Carry on getting annoyed if you must, have you thought of taking up yoga.I said quote
"This idea of turning the uk folk revival into some sort of musical reality show benefits the roots of the music little, it benefits the agents bent on commercialising the music."
If You think commercialising the music benefits the roots of the music,perhaps, femme fatale you might like to elucidate how it does that.
carry on being a silly billy if you must
carry on getting a tad annoyed or perhaps take up some hobby that keeps you calm

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019
From: GUEST,alan whittle
Date: 11 Aug 19 - 11:49 AM

you can say that again

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Aug 19 - 07:40 AM

"Jim's definitions usually seem to be framed so as to include the works of Ewan Maccoll etc"
I don’t have a personal definition, folk song is far too well defined for me to need one
Take on folk song is pretty well those that launched the revival way back in the early fifties and kept the scene alive into the late eighties
I don't need a 'definition' to know what folk song is - it is what i says it is - the music of the folk that kept the songs alive for centuries and probably made most of them in the first place - the farmers, sailors, soldiers, land labourers, factory workers, poachers, transportees.... all substantiated in the repertoire as the 'folk personnel'   
If you don't know what folk song is - go read one of the many hundreds of books that have ben written on the subject - in Britain, in America, Scandinavia, Easter and Western Europe.... wherever folk song has been art of people's lives.
I liked what MacColl did to folk songs and loved the way he used folk forms to create new songs - I am still in awe of the masses of research he dos on understanding and performing folk songs - latterly with The Critics Group
All this has nothing to do with my defining what folk songs is - I knew I was on to something unique and important shortly after I walked though the door of my first folk club at the beginning of the 1960s - and what was more important, so did thousands of others like me who filled the clubs - in Liverpool, Manchester, London - and all the other places we put our selves about to go and listen to folk song - we knew what folk song was when we opened up our copies of 'The Penguin Book of English Folk Song - that remains the good introductory collection it was when it was first published in 1959 (an Lloyd's Folk song in England remains the magnificent inspration study it was when it was published around a decade later)
The clubs began to fall away when it became to leave a folk club without having heard a folk song, or anything resembling one - when they became cultural dustbins to throw in anything they couldn't think of a name for

I know what folk song is and can spend hours talking about is (as I have down the years)
If it has suddenly become something else, somebody needs to tell us what it is and quick, before it is lost to us altogether
This faffing around a sprinting off at the rate of knots whenever 'definition' is mentioned is going to do more damage than it has already done - if that were possible
Your starter for ten - What do you people think 'folk song' means
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Aug 19 - 07:40 AM

"Jim's definitions usually seem to be framed so as to include the works of Ewan Maccoll etc"
I don’t have a personal definition, folk song is far too well defined for me to need one
Take on folk song is pretty well those that launched the revival way back in the early fifties and kept the scene alive into the late eighties
I don't need a 'definition' to know what folk song is - it is what i says it is - the music of the folk that kept the songs alive for centuries and probably made most of them in the first place - the farmers, sailors, soldiers, land labourers, factory workers, poachers, transportees.... all substantiated in the repertoire as the 'folk personnel'   
If you don't know what folk song is - go read one of the many hundreds of books that have ben written on the subject - in Britain, in America, Scandinavia, Easter and Western Europe.... wherever folk song has been art of people's lives.
I liked what MacColl did to folk songs and loved the way he used folk forms to create new songs - I am still in awe of the masses of research he dos on understanding and performing folk songs - latterly with The Critics Group
All this has nothing to do with my defining what folk songs is - I knew I was on to something unique and important shortly after I walked though the door of my first folk club at the beginning of the 1960s - and what was more important, so did thousands of others like me who filled the clubs - in Liverpool, Manchester, London - and all the other places we put our selves about to go and listen to folk song - we knew what folk song was when we opened up our copies of 'The Penguin Book of English Folk Song - that remains the good introductory collection it was when it was first published in 1959 (an Lloyd's Folk song in England remains the magnificent inspration study it was when it was published around a decade later)
The clubs began to fall away when it became to leave a folk club without having heard a folk song, or anything resembling one - when they became cultural dustbins to throw in anything they couldn't think of a name for

I know what folk song is and can spend hours talking about is (as I have down the years)
If it has suddenly become something else, somebody needs to tell us what it is and quick, before it is lost to us altogether
This faffing around a sprinting off at the rate of knots whenever 'definition' is mentioned is going to do more damage than it has already done - if that were possible
Your starter for ten - What do you people think 'folk song' means
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2019
From: GUEST,ST
Date: 11 Aug 19 - 07:06 AM

One of my criteria in my own personal rating of performers as ‘folk’ (and avoiding the usual ‘What is folk, definition problems) is that I’ve seen them ‘au naturel’.    I’ve always been impressed by those ‘professionals’ who get down to their local sessions and take their turn in a singaround with the rest of us. It’s one of the things that makes ‘folk’ special to me (and, yes, I’m sure there are plenty of other genres that it could be applied to as well.) Thankfully, I could list a fair few reasonably well-known names who seem quite happy just to drop in to their local sessions, although none of the nominees above is on it – but, to be fair, that may just be that I don’t live near any of them. I realise that, if you’re performing for a living, you probably won’t want, or perhaps be able, to spend all your free time doing what you’re doing for a job but there are singers/musicians that I’ve seen over the years that seem to be happy to drop in from time to time, perhaps attending because they enjoy the music and even enjoy the idea of what they do being ‘of the folk’ and being part of this themselves.

Perhaps there should be a ‘folk awards’ category for ‘stars’ who also take the time to be ‘folk’.