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BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back...
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Steve Shaw Date: 12 Aug 19 - 06:15 AM "I like the sound of the all woman, cross-party cabinet of national unity." So do I. Sadly, two things will get in the way: tribalism, especially from Labour, and looking-over-my-shoulderism. The thrust of the idea is to put the country first. Got to be a good thing. I wonder whether Nicola Sturgeon will sign up. With her and maybe Yvette Cooper on board it could be a game-changer. Heidi Allen, for whom I've always had a shamefully sneaky regard, is already in. I don't sound very leftie, do I? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Nigel Parsons Date: 12 Aug 19 - 06:23 AM Your a leave supporter aren't you? Yes! How about you coming up with a solution that would be acceptable to everyone? Parliament have not managed to do that, and there are some here who insist that MPs know a lot more about the subject than their employers (us). Why should I be able to do better. In any case, it won't be possible to come up with a solution acceptable to everyone as there are those who would only be happy if we remain part of the EU, and others who will only be happy if we leave. It is a binary choice, and the voting public were asked for their view on the matter. I don't think I need to reiterate the details of the result. Trying to find a solution acceptable to all is like trying to "square the circle". Despite your call for me to solve this, I note that you have made no attempt to find a solution "acceptable to everyone". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Steve Shaw Date: 12 Aug 19 - 06:28 AM Nicola Sturgeon shouldn't say no. If she does, killing the plan stone dead, and Johnson gets his bloody brexit, she'll be seen as having helped him, and in turn having helped her to pitch all the better for Scottish independence, which would have a stronger case if a no-deal brexit goes ahead against the wishes of the majority in Scotland. I support Scottish independence but I want to see all politicos putting the whole country first first. No, that wasn't a mistake... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Steve Shaw Date: 12 Aug 19 - 06:29 AM We are not the employers of MPs. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Nigel Parsons Date: 12 Aug 19 - 06:38 AM Bill, that's brilliant. (Will probably be posted at least 9 more times.) Re: Omelette Only 8 more re-posts needed then. It was posted last year (17 Oct 2018) by Dave the Gnome, but he also correctly attributed it to Gary Bainbridge |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Jim Carroll Date: 12 Aug 19 - 06:39 AM "Why should I be able to do better." People here have been suggesting alternatives to what should be happening in the light of what IS ALREADY happening and the Brexiteers refuse even to discuss the subject Nigel The democratic idea of putting the subject to the country again to see if the minority that voted to leave would still wish to, or those who didn't vote would now do so now That for me, seems to be the very obvious step to take - if the people's decision is paramount, whatever the consequences, why isn't it important enough to ask them again? Again, it would be helpful if Brexiteers actually addressed the obvious damage that is being done -including the possible breaking up of the United Kingdom Here in Ireland we are beginning to experience the rumblings of violence that was gradually being sorted out by various parties - bow re-opened by Brexit Instead of addressing this, your leaders are blaming the backstop for yor not being able to leave and demanding it be removed Why will you not debate those issues. The deliberate obfuscation, dodging responsibility, evasion and open dishonesty connected to Brexit has now reached lethal proportiions - and still you pass the buck Bexit has become as long running as any farce put in at the Whitehall Theater - you and yours have made a laughing stock of Britain - and the joke is becoming sicker and sicker by the day Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Dave the Gnome Date: 12 Aug 19 - 06:50 AM Nigel. I laid out my ideas in the last thread. 08 Aug 19 - 11:18 AM. I said as much in the first post on this thread. To save you the trouble of looking it up, here they are again Leave the EU Apply no tariffs to EU produce Remain in the customs union Allow movement of EU citizens but apply more stringent controls. The EU may not agree but at least this could salvage something without alienating half the electorate or more. What are you suggesting apart from like it or lump it? Speaking of which, there is another viable alternative. Those who want to leave Europe can fuck off to the USA, China or Russia. The rest of us can stay where we belong and invite other non-partisan Europeans to fill the gaps. Over to you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Iains Date: 12 Aug 19 - 07:03 AM We are not the employers of MPs Yet: Mps receive a salary Governments have no money The only source of income is that raised by taxation(in it's broadest sense for the nitpickers) ergo: We the taxpayer pay MPs, therefore we employ them. or is it that mythical labour money tree? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Steve Shaw Date: 12 Aug 19 - 07:49 AM Pound continues to soar downwards. Not long now before quid = euro... I suppose it's still just that "correction" that Nigel used to tell us about... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Jim Carroll Date: 12 Aug 19 - 08:15 AM Johnson is now making a thing of the new laws which is being interpreted as a sign that he is going to call a snap general election Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Backwoodsman Date: 12 Aug 19 - 08:23 AM It’s being suggested that Bozo will call a GE to take place the day after he’s crashed us out of the EU without a deal, and that the Tories and the Brexit Party will join forces in an effort to ensure a win for the Leave-Supporters. I see the break-up of the Union getting ever-closer, with Scotland going for independence and NI being re-unified with the Republic. And, presumably, what’s left - England and Wales - being re-named ‘Little Britain’? Very appropriate. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Stilly River Sage Date: 12 Aug 19 - 10:14 AM You're all still rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Nigel Parsons Date: 12 Aug 19 - 10:15 AM Nigel. I laid out my ideas in the last thread. 08 Aug 19 - 11:18 AM. I said as much in the first post on this thread. To save you the trouble of looking it up, here they are again Leave the EU Apply no tariffs to EU produce Remain in the customs union Allow movement of EU citizens but apply more stringent controls. The EU may not agree but at least this could salvage something without alienating half the electorate or more. What are you suggesting apart from like it or lump it? Speaking of which, there is another viable alternative. Those who want to leave Europe can fuck off to the USA, China or Russia. The rest of us can stay where we belong and invite other non-partisan Europeans to fill the gaps. Over to you. As you say, the EU might not agree with your suggestions, in fact probably would not agree. So it is not a viable alternative. Similarly Theresa May's 'agreement' is not acceptable to Parliament, so also not a viable option. (and the EU claim there is no other possible agreement available) Staying in the customs union would prevent us making separate deals with countries outside the EU, and so would mean we would still be importing goods with tariffs based on protectionary measures which are designed to benefit (some) EU nations. As for your final suggestion: Those who want to leave Europe can fuck off to the USA, China or Russia. It would make as much sense for the Europhiles to go and live in Europe, and leave the UK for those who believe in the ability of the country to prosper without external control. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Jim Carroll Date: 12 Aug 19 - 10:22 AM "t would make as much sense for the Europhiles to go and live in Europe" If I had a pound for every time I was told to go live in Moscow whenever I suggested that socialism might provide some answers I'd have retired twenty years earlier than I did The standard response of the right to the suggestion that everybody should have an equal opportunity to better their lot Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Nigel Parsons Date: 12 Aug 19 - 10:25 AM Jim, If you care to read it again you will see it is a response to Dave the Gnome's suggestion that leavers should go and live in USA/China/Russia. So if you have to pick up on the suggestion of relocation as a partial solution I would suggest you are attacking the wrong person. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Howard Jones Date: 12 Aug 19 - 10:42 AM Parliament voted overwhelmingly for the brexit referendum. Parliament voted for a non-binding referendum. The government decided unilaterally that it would treat it as binding, but that was not the decision of Parliament. A majority voted leave in the referendum The majority was very small. Many of the claims made about the EU and the benefits of leaving were exaggerated or false. No one had given a thought to the risks to the Union or the Good Friday Agreement. Given all that has happened since, and the narrowness of the margin, there is a strong possibility that there is no longer a majority to leave. a majority voted for article 50 in parliament They felt constrained by the result of the referendum, and expected that it would be possible to negotiate terms with the EU. I doubt anyone expected how much opposition there would be from Leave MPs. The last General Election was run on a leave ticket by both parties Which largely cancelled out Brexit as an election issue. The Brexit party took the majority of UK seats in the European election. In that case Leavers should be confident they would win a second referendum A minority of rebellious MPs that stood for election under false pretenses by standing on a leave ticket deliberately lied to their electorate in order to sabotage Brexit. That is opinion rather than fact. I think most MPs had made their positions clear. We now face a self-inflicted recession because half the country doesn't want to leave and the other half can't decide on what terms we should leave. I don't think an election would resolve the issue, as elections are never about single issues, especially where we are faced with a choice between Corbyn and Johnson - both, for different reasons,unacceptable to a large number of voters, including many in their own parties. The only solution is another referendum, to decide between leaving on the agreed terms, leaving with no deal, or remaining. If there was still a majority to leave, this would undermine most of the remainers' arguments and all but the most diehard would have to accept it. If Remain won, it would stave off the immediate crisis, and the last few years have shown that this is not the preoccupation of a few cranks, and we would have to reconsider and perhaps renegotiate our relationship with the EU. If Brexit is still "the will of the people", why are Leavers so reluctant to have a second referendum to confirm it? Is it because they know they fluked it, and now fear that they would lose if there were another vote? If so, is it right to force such a significant matter through against the will of the people? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Jim Carroll Date: 12 Aug 19 - 11:02 AM "USA/China/Russia." Russia is different places since she became "freed" from Communism - now the most unequal country in Europe and the second most dangerous on the planet My point is that if people of your political leanings can tell me to go elsewhere to live to seek my ideals, then you should expect the same response in return I have never had any great problem in living away from home - have done it most of my life The problem is that I have been forced to though circumstances rather than choice Now I have the choice I am as contented as I ever was before Come in - the water's (and Guiniss') lovely - unless Brexit ***** it up That is what your system has refused to grant to the lesser well off living under it - freedom of choice Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Nigel Parsons Date: 12 Aug 19 - 11:09 AM "USA/China/Russia." Russia is different places since she became "freed" from Communism - now the most unequal country in Europe and the second most dangerous on the planet My point is that if people of your political leanings can tell me to go elsewhere to live to seek my ideals, then you should expect the same response in return That comment was from Dave the Gnome (USA/China/Russia). I was merely responding in a like manner (or as you put it: My point is that if people of your political leanings can tell me to go elsewhere to live to seek my ideals, then you should expect the same response in return). It is not a suggestion that I have brought up from my own views, I was just putting a counter suggestion. The subject was brought up in this post: From: Dave the Gnome - Date: 12 Aug 19 - 06:50 AM . . . Speaking of which, there is another viable alternative. Those who want to leave Europe can fuck off to the USA, China or Russia. The rest of us can stay where we belong and invite other non-partisan Europeans to fill the gaps. So, again, if you feel the idea of being told to 'shut up or move out' is not a valid comment, it is Dave you should be addressing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Jeri Date: 12 Aug 19 - 11:49 AM There are thousands of posts on this "subject". Nothing changes, no progress is made or solutions proposed, and the people who could do something about it are not reading a former folk music forum based in the US. People just like the opportunity to pontificate, or fight, or just blather. There is no other purpose to these threads. It's really too bad the UK has no place for you to hang out. We've lost most Americans, the Germans, the French, the Japanese, and Chinese, and most others who used to be here, so you at least, aren't completely ineffective. Personally, I'd love to see a moratorium on Brexit threads here at Mudcat, but you poor folks have no other place to go. Plus, I'd also love to be rich, but that ain't hapenin' either. Have a lovely day. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Iains Date: 12 Aug 19 - 12:26 PM No one on Mudcat will change outcomes. The two sides will never agree. How about a moratorium until Nov 1st. Then the fur and feathers can fly with renewed vigour! With Parliament in recess now is the silly season as exemplified below: "The former leader of the Green Party has apologised after a deluge of criticism from the left for her silly season 'unity government' proposal. "Thanks for all the comments on my proposal – I wanted to start a debate & that's happened. But it's also thrown up important questions about who is on the list and why. An all-white list of women isn't right. For that I apologise." Hilarious, and you could not make that up! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Jim Carroll Date: 12 Aug 19 - 12:31 PM "but you poor folks have no other place to go." Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but Brexit will run and run as long as its let - that's democracy for you Can't remember anybody complaining about Trump threads, or America's appalling gun laws or 9-11 ... quite rightly - Brexit is of no less importance to those of us whose lives it stands to ruin Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Joe Offer Date: 12 Aug 19 - 01:30 PM Thank you for a rational answer, Howard Jones. I've been seeking to understand all this, but it has been so hard to find the facts amidst the shouting. Steve Shaw, whether it's "nonsense from a far-right propagandist" or not, I want to hear rational responses to the "propaganda" so I can understand the issues and their nuances. And Steve, what do you mean when you say "We are not the employers of MPs"? That's not a challenge - I simply want to know what you mean.
For almost 23 years now, we've had a policy of not taking action against people for their political views. We figure that members of the Forum should take care of that by rational discussion, not by badgering us into banishing the current scapegoat. We haven't responded to that badgering, and we're not likely to start doing it now. Indeed, when that badgering starts to undermine our ways of managing the Forum, we're sometimes forced to take action against the badgerers. I have often said that I don't like the idea of "banning" anybody, and that's the truth. But yet, in several recent threads I have been accused of "banning" Mossback/Greg_F. I have suspended him on some occasions for specified periods of time that I stated to him, but that's all. It did get to a point where I could no longer come up with an argument to oppose his banishment, but I was not the one who banned him, and I do not know who did. So, instead of these endless and futile campaigns to get us to ban somebody or another, why not accept the fact that we just don't do that? This is a place for rational discussion, not bullying people into banishment. Please remember that we cannot allow public discussion of the moderation of Mudcat. If you wish to discuss moderation actions or policy, please contact Max or me or any moderator privately. -Joe Offer- joe@mudcat.org |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Jon Freeman Date: 12 Aug 19 - 01:47 PM It’s really too bad the UK has no place for you to hang out. We've lost most Americans, the Germans, the French, the Japanese, and Chinese, and most others who used to be here, so you at least, aren't completely ineffective. Not sure I agree with you there, Jeri. Ill health and even passing away have taken their toll down the bottom and, like it or not (and its not my way), newer Internet things including Facebook have proved better for most and non folk interests. There was a time when I felt that (and argued about….) a lot of old rows (remember the prayer for a mouse thread…) could be sorted by trying to provide an alternative area or indeed with the BS split here but that’s not really how things worked out. I’d tend towards a lot of “natural progression” that would have happened regardless on that That said, I (firmly on the remain side of things but fearing we will wind up with a no deal exit) do not view the MC threads as being helpful either in terms of the political problems or in terms of a friendlier “below the line” |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Jim Carroll Date: 12 Aug 19 - 01:53 PM "For almost 23 years now, we've had a policy of not taking action against people for their political views." Distorting our case really isn't helping JoNobody is suggesting anybody should be take action because of political views This feller has serially abused the people who disagree with him since he joined the forum - THAT INCLUDES RACIST ATTACKS You appear now to be deliberately distorting our complaints in order to protect him You were doing less damage when you just refused to respond to our complaints It is fairly obvious that you regard racist attacks on members acceptable behaviour for this forum I suggest you don't comment any more and we'll just handle the problem in our own way Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: punkfolkrocker Date: 12 Aug 19 - 02:08 PM Joe - well clarified... cheers... pfr - an obnoxious lefty Brit who is anti censorship, and against banning folks who say stuff I don't like... I'll fight for the right to keep 'em.. so I can either ignore 'em, or fight 'em..... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Jim Carroll Date: 12 Aug 19 - 02:25 PM "or fight 'em....." And get the threads closed - built in double jeopardy, I'm afraid Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Iains Date: 12 Aug 19 - 02:26 PM Mr Carroll you have been asked many times to justify your insulting labeling of people. You have yet to rise to the challenge. It has got to the stage where everyone is beginning to believe your labels. a sample of your epithets thrown at me: a racist homophobe drunkard retarded far right extremist. I ask again, show me my words that deserve those labels, not those words you think I said. It seems that recently all attempts to defend myself have been deleted on this forum while the insults arrive faster and more furious. The reality is that when a subject is posted you do not like you attack the author because you lack the nous to counter the argument. Just look at yourr eaction when Guido is mentioned. You have yet to identify errors in his articles, despite repeated requests. There are a few of you lefties follow the same road. Think how you all would squeal if I regularly attacked the extremist rag the Guardian. You do not have God on your side, you do not even have a majority on your side. By every metric you have lost. Leavers were and still are the majority and your constant vacuous arguments will not alter that fact. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Backwoodsman Date: 12 Aug 19 - 02:48 PM I don’t believe there’s any reason to ban anyone. Dealing with abusive trolls is very easy - don’t read their posts or, if you do, don’t respond to them. It’s there for all to read in the ‘Dealing With Flamers & Trolls’ section in Forum FAQs:- ”the best way to deal with both flamers and trolls is to ignore them. Give them silence, and they'll go away. They feed on attention - don't give it to them.” All it takes is a bit of will-power. Ignoring those who don’t deserve one’s attention is very liberating. And, of course, by not ‘getting involved’ in the shenanigans, it very quickly becomes perfectly clear who actually is a ‘bad guy’ and who isn’t, and it makes the Mods’ job much more straightforward. I recommend everyone to try it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: punkfolkrocker Date: 12 Aug 19 - 03:06 PM I'm in default ignore mode at the moment.. There's enough stress in my life, while the mrs is at home on holiday from work... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Jim Carroll Date: 12 Aug 19 - 03:22 PM Sorry Don't agree Trying to carry out a discussion with this happening is like trying to hold a conversation with one speaker blasting out Lord Haw-Haw and the other, Tokyo Rose Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit V. The umpire strikes back... From: Stilly River Sage Date: 12 Aug 19 - 03:25 PM And the Umpire says - OUT!" This thread is no longer about Brexit. |