BS: death of David Koch (1940-2019)

Subject: RE: BS: death of David Koch (1940-2019)
From: keberoxu
Date: 16 Sep 19 - 08:18 AM

And the oldest of the brothers,
Frederick, who went to Harvard and
collected beautiful and expensive objects and properties,
is still alive as well.
Strikingly different than his brothers in some respects.

Subject: RE: BS: death of David Koch (1940-2019)
From: EBarnacle
Date: 15 Sep 19 - 10:59 PM

As is brother Bill who was squeezed out of the operations of the business by his brethren. It does not make him any less of a cutthroat, based on my personal attempts to do business with him.

Subject: RE: BS: death of David Koch (1940-2019)
From: ollaimh
Date: 13 Sep 19 - 12:31 AM

nation mourns: charles koch is still alive

Subject: RE: BS: death of David Koch (1940-2019)
From: Mossback
Date: 10 Sep 19 - 09:51 AM

Here ya go, Joe -

What are the specific public policies that the Kochs and their networks have advanced to transform the United States into a right-wing libertarian dystopia where unrestrained corporate power rules over every aspect of public and private life? How is Charles Koch now seeking to hide his extreme right-wing agenda through public relations subterfuge and support for prison reform and other “progressive” programs?


Click here

Subject: RE: BS: death of David Koch (1940-2019)
From: gillymor
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 10:31 AM

I really don't care what the Koch's motivations were. It's the consequences of their actions against environmentalism that will be their sordid legacy. Once again, it a shame they won't be around to experience them.

Subject: RE: BS: death of David Koch (1940-2019)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 02:08 AM

Well, thanks, Mossback, but I'll feel more comfortable doing my own investigation instead of relying on the propaganda you suggest. My statement about the Koch grants was hardly "anecdotal evidence." It was my personal experience of a well-documented Koch program that has had a wide and positive effect on the ongoing campaign against mass incarceration.
I know it's not something you're familiar with, but rational thinking can be a wonderful thing. Before you commit yourself to a position, don't just buy the ideology you've subscribed to. Test it. And question it.
I had a friend who was a dyed-in-the-wool liberal. He had all the jargon down, and was a True Believer in all ways. He even worked for the Kennedys for a while. Then he changed overnight, and became just as ardent a conservative. I don't think there was any thought involved in his conversion. He just went from one mindless hard-line position to the opposite side.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: death of David Koch (1940-2019)
From: Mossback
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 10:27 PM

Most times, there's something more behind it, something that makes sense to the person doing the deed.

Yup- making ginormous sums of money is what's behind it - as almost everyone posting here -not just me - has repeatedly tried to explain to you. You just refuse to accept the reason - why I cannot fathom.

About your grants story, anecdotal "evidence" isn't.

I guess I have a basic belief that most folks are decent folks

Yes, and some folks are just miserable shits, full stop. And that's a simple fact, not a conspiracy theory or "shallow name calling". Or are you really that naive?

I've got some really bad news for you: you're not going to find common ground OR make progress with the Koch bunch. If you care to waste your time trying, knock yourself out, by all means.

What's next,for you, Joe - trying to find common ground & make progress with Trump? Once you fully understand his perspective, do explain it to us, OK?

Thanks,

Bill

PS: Do read the books recommended above & then get back to us.

Subject: RE: BS: death of David Koch (1940-2019)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 08:10 PM

Mossback, I'm not at all interested in "white-washing the Koch bunch" - I'd just like to know the truth. I don't accept the demonization of human beings easily, and I don't readily accept conspiracy theories, even when they come from my side of the political aisle.

In my experience, I've found that most people do things for reasons that are rational to them. I may bitterly oppose what they do - but to them, it makes sense. I cannot come to any compromise or progress with them unless I understand why they do what they do. Too often here at Mudcat (and many places on the Internet and in church groups), the response is some form of "because they're evil." And I just don't buy that. Most times, there's something more behind it, something that makes sense to the person doing the deed.

Yes, I have seen some stuff on the Internet that speculates that the Koch Brothers stood to profit from prison reform - but is it truth or is it conspiracy theory? Here are a couple of articles that explore that question:

https://www.barrons.com/articles/allergan-settles-to-get-out-of-first-big-opioid-trial-51567173802

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/03/do-the-koch-brothers-really-care-about-criminal-justice-reform/386615/

I asked a lot of questions when I first heard that grants funded by the Koch Brothers were available to help us in our work reforming our county jail. There weren't any strings attached that might lead to privatization. We ended up not applying for the grants, but they seemed legit. Still, it was the first time I'd heard of anything done by the Koch family that seemed like a good thing, so it gave me a little bit of optimism about them for once. But on the other hand, I was relieved that we did not accept the Koch grants.

I guess I have a basic belief that most folks are decent folks, even then they're not - and that the only way we can find common ground and make progress is to come to an understanding of the other people's perspectives.

And the "because they're evil" or "because they're turds" answers, or your various expressions of "fuckwit," just aren't satisfying to me. Answers like that are just shallow name-calling. There's a reason, even though I may ultimately judge the reason to be invalid.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: death of David Koch (1940-2019)
From: gillymor
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 07:13 PM

No matter how much powdered sugar you sprinkle on a turd it will never become a beignet.

Subject: RE: BS: death of David Koch (1940-2019)
From: Mossback
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 06:28 PM

"Joe, the Koch Konglomerate was "interested in prison reform"

1. as a smokescreen

2. because part of their "reform" was privatization of the prison system to a for-profit system.

Might it be possible to bring the Koch Family over to a more humane approach to immigration, by speaking to their pocketbook?

No.

I'm curious: why are you so dead set on white-washing the Koch bunch?

Subject: RE: BS: death of David Koch (1940-2019)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 06:08 PM

Nick, I think the Koch Brothers were interested in prison reform because they saw how much money is wasted in the American system of mass incarceration. I wonder if there's an inroad here. I thought being "tough on crime" was a conservative Sacred Cow, and that there was no way conservatives like the Koch Brothers would promote alternatives to mass incarceration.

Huge amounts of money have been wasted in the U.S. immigration system, another conservative Sacred Cow. Might it be possible to bring the Koch Family over to a more humane approach to immigration, by speaking to their pocketbook?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: death of David Koch
From: ollaimh
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 11:56 AM

nation mourns, because charles koch is still alive

Subject: RE: BS: death of David Koch
From: Nick
Date: 31 Aug 19 - 04:17 PM

By coincidence I just started reading Dark Money the other day.

Joe, I think that the charitable thing was rooted in tax advantage and was learned from father. Mostly based on self interest

Subject: RE: BS: death of David Koch
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 05:08 PM

Naturally, I take a psychological point of view regarding the actions of David Koch. His life revolved around his being taught self absorpsion and that the only success in life is profit.
That being his nurture, his nature can be summed up in telling you about an extraordinary 2 minutes and 10 seconds of his life when a commercial plane crashed on the runway and fire surrounded David Koch's plane. He was virtually alone in first class when smoke started to fill the cabin. When he looked past the curtain he saw people dying because some of the emergency exits could not be used because of fire. He went forward and exited the plane from the formost exit that was clear. Did he yell to the others that a forward 1st class exit was clear?
No.   
Did he assist anyone else to escape?
No.
David Koch's humanity was tested in those 2 minutes and left wanting.


Regarding my absence, I have merely procrastinated from posting to do other things. With my language condition, writing is nearly as time consuming as it was for Steven Hawking. No big deal or conspiracy theory. I've merely saved countless hours and have done things instead of talk about things.

PS I have not 'exchanged' PM's with Keb for about a year nor has wierded spruce physically harmed himself or others to my knowledge.

Subject: RE: BS: death of David Koch
From: EBarnacle
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 01:08 AM

I strongly recommend "America in Chains" by Maclean. The book is about the rise of the Libertarian movement and how the Koch brothers sponsored it in large part by taking over George Mason university and using it to spawn think tanks.

Subject: RE: BS: death of David Koch
From: keberoxu
Date: 29 Aug 19 - 10:06 PM

The book Dark Money,
and the connections to Hitler and Stalin.

more about Fred Koch Sr.

Subject: RE: BS: death of David Koch
From: Mr Red
Date: 29 Aug 19 - 03:01 AM

There are mathematical curiosities discovered by a Swedish mathematician Helge von Koch, who preferred to pronounce his name "Cotch" (AFAIK).

Koch Curve

Subject: RE: BS: death of David Koch
From: Mossback
Date: 27 Aug 19 - 08:48 AM

And the hits just keep coming!


https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/aug/27/death-destruction-david-koch-legacy

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/aug/26/koch-activists-phoenix-ban-light-rail

Subject: RE: BS: death of David Koch
From: Iains
Date: 27 Aug 19 - 05:10 AM

Some folks here post strong, assertive opinions and then cry foul when someone responds in kind.

Ain't that the truth!

and we all know who they are.

Subject: RE: BS: death of David Koch
From: gillymor
Date: 26 Aug 19 - 02:59 PM

I agree with pfr, "if you can't take the heat..."
Some folks here post strong, assertive opinions and then cry foul when someone responds in kind.

Subject: RE: BS: death of David Koch
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Aug 19 - 02:49 PM

Even if it's a mudcatter I like and respect,
I've no patience for self-indulgent drama queens and martyrs..
Some folks are just not sturdy enough for down here in BS...

If they depart mudcat in a huff.. tuff..
we're supposed to be mature adults, aint we...???

Now, back to the topic of taking the piss out of billionaires please...

Subject: RE: BS: death of David Koch
From: keberoxu
Date: 26 Aug 19 - 02:25 PM

Your coyness is my precaution.
When I asked about the disappearance of posts
by this fellow Mudcat member,
I was shocked to hear
that this member was receiving
treatment at this forum
with which the moderators could not assist.

Far from being forcibly removed from membership,
this member chose to stop attracting attention and mistreatment
by falling silent.
I won't name my source but we exchanged PMs on the subject.

I for one miss this member a great deal.
I hope someone will tell me
if it was my behavior that the member objected to.
I hope this contributor comes back. It's not the same without them.

Subject: RE: BS: death of David Koch
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Aug 19 - 07:02 PM

Total bollocks, keberoxu. Just tell us who you're talking about. If they posted here they posted here. Your cod-coyness is just pretentious.

Subject: RE: BS: death of David Koch
From: keberoxu
Date: 25 Aug 19 - 05:11 PM

A Mudcat member who shall remain nameless, bless (gender-concealed) heart,
if this member were still posting below the line,
would have some pithy opinions and observations
on the Koch family.
What is more, I remember reading on older threads here
some of this member's posts on that very subject.

I believe the name Stalin was mentioned.

Subject: RE: BS: death of David Koch
From: Mossback
Date: 25 Aug 19 - 02:36 PM

Sorry, Gilly - was there this A.M. Try This

Subject: RE: BS: death of David Koch
From: gillymor
Date: 25 Aug 19 - 01:54 PM

Koch isn't the first anti-human, planet-raping robber baron to try to rehabilitate his sleazy image by indulging in philanthropy and good works in the latter stage of life. They want to make sure that that eternal salvation coupon is still valid when they reach the Pearly Gates.
And Mossback, that link at alternet seems to have expired.

Subject: RE: BS: death of David Koch
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 25 Aug 19 - 01:42 PM

I am sure that the wealthy will enjoy further tax breaks from an eye watering fortune in inheritance tax.

Subject: RE: BS: death of David Koch
From: Neil D
Date: 25 Aug 19 - 01:00 PM

In answer to your "But why?" question Joe:

Do you suppose the 1% react with glee and mirth
As they're making obscene fortunes from the rape of Mother Earth
They've been greedy piglets from the moment of their birth
Nothing matters to them but their personal net worth

They're making filthy lucre off the backs of the working poor
They think that's what us commoners were put on this earth for
Know matter how much wealth accrued they still think they need more
Why, if there's a dollar to be made, they'll even start a war

Koch Brothers and Waltons and Haliburton too
They think they own the government and I suppose they do
But we need to take it back from them and tell them they are through
"cause Woody taught me that this land was meant for me and you

Subject: RE: BS: death of David Koch
From: Mossback
Date: 25 Aug 19 - 12:27 PM

Why do megalomaniacs do anything, Joe? Why does Trump? Why did Hitler?

Largely in the Crotch Bros case, its simply Deep Throat - "follow the money" - Ya can't ever have enough if you're a Koch.

https://www.alternet.org/2019/08/here-are-11-things-the-koch-brothers-didnt-want-you-to-know/ Read This and then you might want to consider continuing to educate yourself via Google & such. More info out there readily available than you can shake a science-denier at.

Subject: RE: BS: death of David Koch
From: gillymor
Date: 25 Aug 19 - 06:06 AM

The only regret I have at his passing is that he won't have to experience the consequences of his, and other industrialists, well-funded campaign to quash efforts to deal with climate change. Future generations be damned in the name of obscene profits. It brings to mind those Dylan lines, "For threatening my baby unborn and unnamed, You ain't worth the blood that runs in your veins."

Subject: RE: BS: death of David Koch
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Aug 19 - 10:33 PM

Extremely wealthy powerful people with unhinged beliefs and motives,
living in a world of their own...

Subject: RE: BS: death of David Koch
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Aug 19 - 08:40 PM

But why? What was their thinking behind their attempt to impose their extreme philosophy on the US and the world? "Because they're bad" (or whatever) is not a satisfactory answer. The Koch Brothers have had more money than anybody could possibly use. While they may have been guilty of questionable practices in accumulating their billions, megabillionaires like the Gateses and Carnegies and Vanderbilts and Rockefellers, all ended up doing things that were quite remarkably philanthropic and constructive. Warren Buffet seems to be going in the same philanthropic direction.

What is it about the Koch Family? Do they believe they are saving the world by imposing their conservative ideals? The efforts of the Koch Family are more-or-less the same as those of the John Birch Society of the 1950s and 1960s. What is the rationale behind it?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: death of David Koch
From: Mossback
Date: 24 Aug 19 - 08:24 PM

“A substantial part of David Koch’s legacy was the utter distortion of American democracy, which should be based on one person, one vote but was grossly twisted when he used his vast wealth to buy himself an influence that was out of all proportion.”

THE KOCHTOPUS

Subject: RE: BS: death of David Koch
From: Amergin
Date: 24 Aug 19 - 05:29 PM

There's not enough piss in the world for his grave.

Subject: RE: BS: death of David Koch
From: Mossback
Date: 24 Aug 19 - 11:35 AM

Hell, Gilly, 98% does it for me!

Nobody's perfect.....

Subject: RE: BS: death of David Koch
From: gillymor
Date: 24 Aug 19 - 10:51 AM

Apparently the Kochs weren't/aren't all bad, maybe only 98% worth. Their assault on the environment was especially heinous.

Subject: RE: BS: death of David Koch
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Aug 19 - 10:45 AM

Hitler was apparently kind to animals...???

Subject: RE: BS: death of David Koch
From: Mossback
Date: 24 Aug 19 - 10:14 AM

I'm decidedly with Bill Maher on this one.

The Koch boys are not "interesting"- they're despicable.

(Tho I suppose Goebbels and Pol Pot were "interesting" in their own way.)

Subject: RE: BS: death of David Koch
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Aug 19 - 03:57 AM

we all have to die and recive judgement, i hope he comes back a a wasp or a slug

Subject: RE: BS: death of David Koch
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Aug 19 - 02:08 AM

All this stuff didn't start with David and Charles. The paterfamilias of the Koch family was Fred C. Koch, who developed a new cracking method for the refinement of heavy crude oil into gasoline. Fred was one of the founding members of the John Birch Society. It's interesting to see how this wealthy, extreme conservatism goes all the way back to the days of the John Birch Society.

It's also interesting to see where the Koch brothers departed from the conservative party line. They worked with the ACLU on criminal justice reform, and they are pro-choice and support same-sex marriage. Despite these progressive views, the Koch brothers deny the scientific consensus on global warming - I'm guessing because ecological concerns interfere with their business interests.

Interesting people - with scary power.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: death of David Koch
From: robomatic
Date: 24 Aug 19 - 01:23 AM

Relatively new book out: "Kochland" author just interviewed on Fresh Air last week. Pretty interesting. Charles was mentioned more than David, but I don't know if it was because of the David Koch Fund for Science.

Subject: RE: BS: death of David Koch
From: Mossback
Date: 23 Aug 19 - 06:55 PM

I never quite understood that.


Not really all that difficult to understand.

The Koch Bros (a.k.a. The Dark Money Lords) throw small amounts of money a few legitimate causes ( including "The David H. Koch Fund for Science" - a major funder of NOVA on PBS - pretty amusing for climate change deniers and the billions they've spent to deny global climate change) to distract attention from the other shitty causes they pursue and fund and leverage and bribe politicians behind the scenes to the overall detriment of humanity.

The modern version of John D. Rockefeller teaching Sunday school while he raped his workers, destroyed competition by any means necessary, and murdered union members en masse.

Some people are apparently easily gulled & are unable to see thru the smokescreen.

See also:
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2010/08/30/covert-operations

Subject: RE: BS: death of David Koch
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Aug 19 - 04:36 PM

Like Sir Vivian Fucks??

Subject: RE: BS: death of David Koch
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Aug 19 - 04:28 PM

"Coke" - like the drink.

Subject: RE: BS: death of one of the Brothers Koch
From: Mossback
Date: 23 Aug 19 - 03:28 PM

It's pronounced "fuckwit".

Subject: RE: BS: death of one of the Brothers Koch
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Aug 19 - 03:04 PM

There was so much they did that I opposed, but I was surprised to find that they opposed mass incarceration and supported reform of U.S. prisons and jails - and that they offered grants to us working for prison reform.
I never quite understood that.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: death of one of the Brothers Koch
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Aug 19 - 02:39 PM

[that's the best BS'll get out of me until our roof is fixed...]

Subject: RE: BS: death of one of the Brothers Koch
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Aug 19 - 02:37 PM

is it pronounced 'cock'..???

Subject: BS: death of David Koch
From: keberoxu
Date: 23 Aug 19 - 02:00 PM

One of the inconceivably wealthy Brothers Koch has died.

New York Times: Obit, David Hamilton Koch, 1940 - 2019