Brexit and music

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Nov 21 - 08:00 AM

"It is vital for our economy and exports "..

..seems to have forgotten the bit about "Cultural Exchange and International Friendship Building"...???

Oh well.. Obviously not as vitally important as ££££$$$...???????

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Rain Dog
Date: 17 Nov 21 - 07:49 AM

From The Guardian


Spain scraps visa requirement for UK touring musicians

Music industry welcomes move by Spanish government as ‘hugely welcome’ and a ‘big victory’

The UK’s music industry has welcomed the decision by the Spanish government to scrap post-Brexit visa requirements for UK artists on short-term tours, but warned significant issues still remain that will make many tours “impossible”.

Spain’s announcement means UK musicians and their crew will no longer need visas for engagements of less than 90 days, a change in policy that came after months of lobbying from trade groups on both sides.
The organisation UK Music, which has described the visa requirements as “costly and bureaucratic barriers that threatened the industry’s talent pipeline”, described the move as a “big victory”.

Jamie Njoku-Goodwin, UK Music chief executive, said the decision was a first step in the right direction but added: “The lifting of visa restrictions by the Spanish government is a hugely welcome move,” he said. “However, it is important to remember that major issues still remain, particularly cabotage [the transport of goods or passengers between two places in the same country by a foreign operator], which makes many tours impossible.

“We will continue to press the case with the government here and with EU nations to remove all the costly and bureaucratic restrictions that remain when it comes to touring the EU.”

He added: “It is vital for our economy and exports that musicians and crew can tour freely, grow their fanbase and share the very best of British music across Europe and the rest of the world.”

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Rain Dog
Date: 06 Aug 21 - 01:48 PM

The BBC have an article on this subject.

'It just isn't sustainable' - Why touring in the EU is problematic for UK bands


Within the article they mention the following:

The road to Rouen: will bands be able to tour again?

Over the next few months, BBC News will be following tour managers as they try to plan their tour dates for 2021 and 2022, to learn more about the obstacles, bottlenecks and successes.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Rain Dog
Date: 05 Aug 21 - 11:20 AM

The Guardian has another article on the same matter.

Trade bodies and unions representing British musicians have expressed frustration at a government announcement on European work visas that they say changes nothing.

Musicians and performers continue to accuse the government of ignoring their plight by failing to negotiate any Brexit deal that would reinstate the previous visa-free working arrangements.

UK musicians hit out at announcement about visa-free EU touring

The devil is in the detail of course.


Paul W Fleming, the general secretary of the union Equity, called the announcement “an overdue but welcome first step”.

He said it was still waiting on a country-by-country breakdown of different work permit regimes as well as “proper definitions of short-term touring, and the implications on carnets and cabotage for small-scale productions”.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: GUEST,Jack Campin (on a library computer)
Date: 05 Aug 21 - 06:04 AM

The NME is much less impressed by the new deal:

NME story

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: GUEST,Jack Campin (on a library computer)
Date: 05 Aug 21 - 05:52 AM

Work permits are only a small part of it. Customs arrangements for instruments and merch? Visas when members of groups (including drivers and roadies) are from countries outside Europe?

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Aug 21 - 04:20 AM

Oh, that's good to hear, Rain Dog. I wish they could make a similar agreement with the United States. Now's the time to do it - the Biden Administration would be open to it.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Rain Dog
Date: 05 Aug 21 - 04:00 AM

From The Guardian newspaper


UK musicians and performers will be able to tour in a number of European countries without the need for a visa or work permit, the government has announced.

Rules that came into force at the beginning of the year do not guarantee visa-free travel for musicians in the EU and have prompted fears that touring artists will incur large fees in many of the countries they visit.

However, the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (DCMS) said it had negotiated with 19 EU member state countries to allow British musicians and performers to conduct short tours visa-free.

These countries are: Austria, Belgium, the Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Hungary, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, Poland, Slovakia, Slovenia, and Sweden.

The government said talks were ongoing with remaining EU countries, including Spain, Portugal and Greece, to align their arrangements with the UK’s, which allows touring performers and support staff to visit for up to three months without a visa.

UK musicians to be able to tour visa-free in 19 EU countries

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 01 Apr 21 - 07:52 AM

Open letter to BoJo

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: GUEST,patriot
Date: 21 Mar 21 - 01:52 PM

She voted for it as well- maybe reluctantly, but.....

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 21 Mar 21 - 01:22 PM

Harriet Harman's proposal

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Mar 21 - 04:01 AM

48.11% for Remain

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jos
Date: 07 Mar 21 - 06:29 AM

"what Brexit actually meant when they voted for it!"

Rather a lot of us DIDN'T vote for it - for all the good it did us.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: GUEST,patriot (ireland)
Date: 07 Mar 21 - 05:18 AM

Anyone with any brains at all should have seen what Brexit actually meant when they voted for it!
I thought the English were an intelligent race until that vote- or maybe they like being ruled by the loonies in the ERG? Wales, NI and Scotland had more sense but seems they don't count?
It's hard on musicians BUT again, can't you see that all this gadding about the world has to be seriously curtailed anyway or does England intend to vote against climate change as well?

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 04 Mar 21 - 07:34 AM

From Peter Shepheard, Springthyme Records:

This is the result of our Brexit 'Free Trade’ deal.

On a recent Springthyme Records package of CDs sold from Scotland by post to Germany the customer was required to go to his local post office to pay 10.42€ customs duty (i.e. 19% VAT on goods value and shipment costs) plus 6€ processing fees.

Here is our correspondence:
On Sun, Feb 28, 2021 at 10:41:29PM +0000, Peter Shepheard wrote:
PS: I am shocked by this. I presume this is the result of the "easy free trade deal" that Boris Johnson promised us back at the time of the Brexit vote.

Customer: Well, trade isn't restricted, so it is probably considered to be free... But for every package from outside the EU with a value of more than 22€ I have to pay import sales tax for the value of the goods plus the cost of shipment. The import sales tax is the same amount as VAT, and I presume that the seller should not charge me VAT in his country too.

Also, I just read on Wikipedia that from 1 July 2021 the 22€ exemption limit will no longer apply to mail items from non-EU countries. So I will probably have to pay for every single CD I get from the UK.

The money isn't the problem for me but the bureaucracy, and having to go to the post office or the customs office for every single shipped CD will surely limit my eagerness to buy music from the UK. This does not bode well for updating my website with new content.

PS: Springthyme is no longer VAT registered so we cannot charge VAT - so I cannot see why you should be charged VAT.

Customer: I don't think our customs office knows of or cares about foreign VAT extemptions.

PS: Have you had to pay VAT on imports from UK in the past?
Customer: No because this was not an import as long as the UK was part of the EU. I did have to pay for shipments from e.g. the USA or Australia.

PS: So we now have the sort of ‘Free Trade” that we want - just like Australia, USA and other foreign countries. Brexit no more.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 15 Feb 21 - 06:18 AM

Not spares for musical instruments, but in the last week or so I have received some data cables from Germany and a book from Sweden.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 14 Feb 21 - 06:50 PM

Things I would like to order shortly from small firms abroad:

Oud strings from Germany
Ebony pegs from Germany
Ocarinas from Italy
Software download from Greece
Books and book/CD sets from Turkey

Anybody had any luck with that sort of purchase lately?

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 27 Jan 21 - 10:01 AM

And can Brexit even manage to fuck up mediaeval music? You bet. From Elizabeth Eva Leach at DIAMM (the Digital Image Archive of Mediæval Music) at Oxford, on Twitter:

"So, to get the @diammpub equipment across the border to the EU now, we need to have a cash float of just over £22k. DIAMM does not have this kind of ready money, so the UK govt has made a flagship digitization project that's been running for 2 decades suddenly unworkable."

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 25 Jan 21 - 05:50 AM

Thomann and VAT

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 24 Jan 21 - 08:54 AM

Fish's piece is at the top of his Facebook feed. Here it is. It's a long read, but stick with it. If an established artist like him can't see a future, what hope have the up-and-comiong bands got?

THE FIRST WHAMMY - this is a long post but please read through before commenting
How Brexit Has Destroyed UK Artists’ Ability To Tour In The EU – by Fish (21 st Jan, 2021)
I’m still reeling from the new regulations revealed by the UK Government just over 2 weeks ago regarding touring in the European Union post Brexit. I’ve been trying to make sense of it
all from all the sometimes contradictory and often vague information available on various websites that are constantly being updated and working out how this affects my own business and career. It’s quite frankly confounding.
I’ve grown tired of hearing “So what did musicians do before we joined the EU then?”.#
In 1973 when the UK joined the EU I was 15 years old and the Global Music Industry revenues were around 5 billion US dollars. By the turn of the century they were around $25 billion and today worth around $21 billion with the UK music industry generating $7.5 billion. That is a figure that doesn’t even take in the vast independent network or all the ancillary workers and bolt on industries that contribute hugely these days to the International music business.
As an example, my album sales don’t even count as I’m not officially chart ‘registered’ and on unofficial figures I had a Top 10 album in the UK with over 10 000 physical mail order sales of my 11 th solo album, ‘Weltschmerz’ in the first week of release in October 2020. A purely independent release. A tree in the forest. And there are a lot of trees out there.
It’s a huge industry generating nearly 4 times more than the UK fishing industry which despite a loud lobbying voice has its own valid frustrations at this time as we deal with all this weight of bureaucracy now foisted upon us by Brexit.
To put things a bit in perspective ‘The Who’ between 1963 and 1973 played only around 55 shows in the current EU countries. I have 27 EU shows and 5 in Scandinavia rescheduled from last year going out across 43 days in the Autumn of this year. That is more than half of the 90 out of 180 days I am allowed to be in the EU under the new rules. If these shows had gone ahead as planned in 2020 I would have been booking further shows in the early part of this year, if the new regulations allowed. Taking into account any
EU festivals which are normally a 3-day venture across a performance, plus any promotion trips which would also have to be added to my tally, as well as personal visits to my German
family, and those 90 days in 180 fast disappear.
The visa/ permit situation has a major impact. From what I’ve discovered so far we now need permits for every country in the EU. In Holland for example the administration/ processing costs of a permit are around £250 per person not including the instigation and set up on our end. I carry a 10-person team; 6 musicians including myself, a back-line tech, a sound engineer, a lighting/projection tech and a production manager.
If the permits are for every individual country and of similar amounts then I have around £2500 in extra costs on permits alone for every EU country we perform in. This will rule out single shows in countries such as France and Belgium where I play medium club size gigs and put a lot of pressure on future shows in Spain and Italy where I normally have a brace of gigs of around 5-800 capacity. These shows are already squeaky as we work to minimum
guarantees that cover only costs from promoters and the visa/ permit charge represents nearly 50% of those guarantees. Some shows will quite simply become financially unfeasible
on potential permit costs alone.
Compared to many artists I operate with a very tight crew and I have to keep it lean to make the figures work and keep us on the road and earning a living for everyone concerned. I have learned to manage myself - thus saving 20% of my gross income, which can be used to finance touring - and have ‘assassinated’ as many middle men as possible to enable me to continue making music and perform shows. It’s a lot of work for someone who just wants
to be an artist but if I don’t take on these responsibilities myself I couldn’t make a living. And I am an established artist! I’ve just been handed a live grenade with the pin pulled out.
My heart goes out to musicians starting out in small clubs and at the beginning of their careers who have to find that money in advance of tours. Artists signed to major labels have a better chance but for independents it’s a killer.
Crew members and session musicians have an added hit from the newly limited time allowed in the EU. Most techs and session musicians make a living by touring with a variety of artists throughout the year and they will now be unable, or find it very difficult, to juggle schedules to adhere to the new rules on travel. In short UK based touring personnel will be hamstrung and UK artists might have to consider taking on EU based crew and musicians to
get around the restrictions – thus depriving their long-standing UK crew of being able to make a living.
We now have to have our passports stamped at every border crossing in order to officially document the time we spend in various countries as per the visas/ permits. At those crossings we must get a carnet stamped. This is a UK generated document that identifies and lists every piece of equipment carried out of the UK from guitars and amps to strings, drums and sticks and skins, keyboards etc. It is used to show that we take the equipment out
and cross every border with the same manifest and return to the UK with exactly the same contents. The carnet basically shows that we haven’t exported anything for sale to another country and haven’t imported anything out with the manifest. It has to be stamped going in and out of every country and miss a stamp and you walk into a nightmare of bureaucracy and potential heavy fines. (I’ve had to fly someone to Switzerland with supporting legal documents to have a carnet stamped that was missed as there was no one available at that time in the morning at the border as we were gig bound on a tight schedule)
At the border crossings the customs officers are totally within their rights to ask for an entire truck or trailer to be unloaded and examined to see if it matches the carnet documents. Protests on time constraints are a waste of energy and the tour-bus drivers just have to wait while the digital tachographs count down their drive time available. And the drivers’ operating and rest time in these potential circumstances has to be taken into consideration.
Being stopped for a couple of hours during the night at a border check could take a driver out of the legal time allowed at the wheel. In order to make sure we get to places we are supposed to be, the only solution now is to take on double drivers, who would normally only come on board for long hauls such as in Scandinavia or occasional big drives. Having 2 drivers full time on an entire tour just keeps on adding to the costs with not only their wages but hotel rooms and catering. The risks of losing shows because a driver is out of hours aren’t worth taking.
Yes, carnets existed before Brexit but they were only needed up till now in Switzerland and Norway. It’s now across every European country and every border crossing where they will
have to be stamped for the first time since 1973; 48 years ago, when amplifiers only had valves and ‘digital’ was a word in Science Fiction books. Legal drive time didn’t exist in 1973.
We pay tax in all the countries we play in Europe. For example in Germany it’s about 19% on the gross fee received from the promoter and unless you are represented by a German
based company who can reclaim some costs such as tour buses at around £1400 a day, hotels for any day off at over £1200 a night for the team, and various other production costs which include a contribution to crew wages, the tax is taken from the top.
When you pay those taxes you receive a credit note from the respective tax authority and that is provided to HMRC to put against your UK taxes. It’s called a reciprocal tax
agreement. I paid over £25k in withholding tax in the EU in 2018 on one tour after allowances for costs because I had a German agent.
Up till now I have not had an answer as to whether that still applies. Do we still get that allowance or will only a percentage of it apply if at all? At the moment my tax advisors don’t know. I’m supposed to be on tour in 8 months and don’t even know if it’s actually financially feasible. The contracts were signed in late 2019 and don’t take into consideration any post Brexit financial implications as no one knew what they were until 2 weeks ago.
We will now have to deal with the respective ‘national insurances’ in every country on top of the income tax. That applies to everyone in the band and crew and requires more paperwork and applications.
We will now also have to register for VAT in every EU country if we want to sell merchandise on the road and claim back VAT from costs. All taxes have to be paid in full before any merch leaves the UK and declarations could have to be made at every national border. If we are not registered then it’s near impossible to reclaim back the respective national VAT. As an example the German nightliner tour bus on the next alleged tour has around £13 000
VAT we now become liable for. This means more accountancy bills, more middlemen, more bureaucracy.
Like most other artists, I need merchandise sales on tour to supplement my income and allow us to play shows in areas where the promoter’s guarantee from ticket sales falls short of the costs required to perform there. As an independent artist a large amount of my album sales are on the road at the merchandise stall. Streaming changed the ball game and as a result, physical album sales in traditional record stores have collapsed compared to when I started in the music business 40 years ago, so playing live has become the principal source of income for many musicians
and bands. This comes through gig fees and direct-to-customer album and merchandise sales.
And I am a recognised artist with a loyal fanbase and playing decent size venues. I’ve managed through trial and error over time to find a model that works. I’m not in a new band making its first forays into Europe taking the big jump and betting on a chance to break into what is still the third biggest music market in the World, just a few miles on a ferry across the Channel. How are they supposed to find visa fees especially if they are an independent outfit? How do they front costs for that valuable merch that could be their only wages on a gig? The wages that pay their rent and the rehearsal rooms and fuel in the tank? How does the next young Iron Maiden, Simple Minds, The Cure or dare I say Marillion break
into the EU market now? From where is the UK government going to replace those potential future tax revenues from successful bands? Do they care? It certainly doesn’t appear so,
especially for the non-corporate bands.
These are just some of the razor wire hurdles I’ve come across so far since the new Brexit rules were published just a couple of weeks ago. Prior to that I’ve been discussing probabilities with fellow professionals, tour and production managers, accountants, and
advisors for well over 18 months trying to discover how this was all going to affect us – but the government left it so late, none of us have been able to prepare. Tours are booked over a year in advance and there is a lot of detailed planning involved. I’m used to that. And still no one seems to be any clearer on what is happening.
Some have accused the live music industry of not facing reality after the Brexit vote was determined by the accumulative vote across the UK. That is most definitely not true. We have been trying to read the runes and the smoke for a very long time and being in an industry that has to continually adjust to outside factors on a sometimes-daily basis while on the road we are accustomed to extraneous demands. Taking a double-barrelled shotgun to
our feet was not anywhere in the equation.
I’m not an accountant, never wanted to be. I wanted to be a creative artist and performer who could ply my trade and earn a living across borders, and especially in Europe, our closest neighbours and as I said the third biggest music market in the world next to the USA and Japan. It appears that the only sector benefitting from all these new regulations are accountants and advisors, and all those costs will percolate through to album and concert ticket prices.
And all of this during a pandemic that has crippled the music industry and put thousands out of work for an indefinite time.
I always look for silver linings with regards to my own situation and the only thing I can grasp on to is that my own postponed tour gives me preparation time to take on these seemingly constantly changing regulations and find a way forward. Some may say visa/permit costs, tax changes etc are negligible and part of the ‘cost’ of this current mess. For an arena level band, that may be so. It’s mostly an accountancy issue and they will usually have a wider
organisation who can focus on paperwork, but for others at my level and below it’s the difference between having a tour and a career in the music business or not.
And now? Where am I?
A 32 date European and Scandinavian tour looming in September with rehearsals necessary in August; an increasingly raging virus, nationwide vaccinations still a long way off, no
insurance for anything Covid related, promoters suggesting renegotiations of contracts for potential social distancing (impossible and refused), vastly increased merchandise
commission of around 20% of the gross sales (plus VAT) expected as venues and corporate entities involved try to recover losses and all of the above previously mentioned.
Is it going to happen? I wouldn’t buy tickets and incur fees that are non-returnable until I knew for certain the tour was happening. I certainly can’t hold up my hand and say I will be on tour in September or at any point this year.
And now, take another step back on this and look from the other side. I am on tour, potentially unvaccinated. Our tour merchandiser faces the public every night. She contracts the virus and we have maybe 10 days before she shows symptoms, and we are all together on a bus every day. Meanwhile in 10 days we could be in 7 cities intermingling with house crews, journalists, promoters, members of the general public etc. One band, one bus - one
potential travelling super-spreading Covid generator.
The tour is scheduled to start in just over 8 months, and we are still in lockdown here for perhaps another month and beyond. We should be looking at applying for visas/ permits by the beginning of summer latest to ensure we are regulatory compliable? And that means I will need to pay out £15k for work permits/visas we might not even need and in my opinion shouldn’t even be required in the first place?
The ‘bandwagon’ was already stalled by the pandemic and now bureaucracy has slashed the tyres and thrown sand in the engine while laying a minefield on the road with no maps to trust.
All the info I’ve related comes from current valid and credible sources. It’s not ‘fake news’ or ‘Remainer bullshit’. This is what I have discovered so far and what is being revealed on a day-to-day basis - on government and official websites which are constantly updated - still remains vague and doesn’t address specific questions we genuinely need answers to. It’s all real and at the moment it’s all that we know now.
I genuinely despair at the current state of the music industry and the dreams that are being broken on these rocks. I’m 63 this year and immensely grateful for what the music industry and the fans of my music have given me over the last 40 years. I just can’t imagine what it’s like for a young artist in these present times. I planned to retire from live music in 2023 and have just lost 2 years on a road I seriously don’t know if I will ever revisit.
We, the music business, and industry of the UK are currently in a perilous state. After all we have given to the world over the last 50 years and more; the revenue and cultural recognition that has been provided to this country through the musicians and technicians
and every ancillary member of the live music communities with their writing, creations, and performances. We deserve better than this from our elected government. We need a rethink,
and we need it sooner rather than later as our future is in jeopardy
Fish

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 24 Jan 21 - 06:54 AM

(Apropos the petition)
Government responded

This response was given on 14 January 2021

"During our negotiations, we proposed measures to allow creative professionals to travel and perform in both the UK and EU, without needing work-permits. Unfortunately, the EU rejected these proposals."

That is an excellent example of being economical with the truth. It is perfectly true, and thoroughly misleading.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 23 Jan 21 - 04:25 PM

I can't find it again, but there was a very long and very articulate piece on FB from Fish (ex Marillion) pointing out how bad Brexit was even for a fairly successful musician like himself - and that it would finish the careers of smaller fry before they even got started.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: DaveRo
Date: 19 Jan 21 - 07:22 AM

This petition was started some weeks ago:
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/563294

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 19 Jan 21 - 02:47 AM

Scottish National Party takes this to Parliament: Pete Wishart

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 18 Jan 21 - 06:38 AM

Petition about this:

https://hey-mp.uk/?c=music

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 17 Jan 21 - 07:44 PM

Simon Rattle applies for German citizenship

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 10 Jan 21 - 07:37 AM

You can always rely on Boris -- to let you down.

He and his cronies must have much to gain from Brexit to have pursued it so determinedly, but there are no positives for most of us and very many negatives. These restrictions on musicians just add to the charge sheet.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 10 Jan 21 - 07:08 AM

More reactions to that story

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Joe G
Date: 09 Jan 21 - 07:03 PM

I think that has surprised nobody! Appalling attitude to both our own musicians and to those of the EU who bring such superb music to the UK. Our own musicians will be the real losers in this though as those in the EU will be able to travel freely. The Tories have no interest in culture - especially when it comes to grassroots music

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 09 Jan 21 - 04:16 PM

It now comes out that the Johnson regime was offered a solution and refused it.


https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/uk-visa-free-work-musicians-eu-brexit-b1784600.html

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 05 Jan 21 - 10:12 AM

The government is claiming that the UK pushed for a more ambitious agreement with the EU on the temporary movement of business travellers, which would have covered musicians and others, but our proposals were rejected by the EU.

However it's not just visas. Whether or not a work visa is required, customs in both the UK and EU will still probably require a carnet listing all the equipment, and there will still be a need for Musical Instrument Certificates for CITES.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 05 Jan 21 - 08:10 AM

When I see this discussed on non-music forums the general response is along the lines of "big stadium bands play outside the EU without problem so why will this be a problem?"

Without wider support it will be difficult to get traction on this in the corridors or power. Not only do we need to be lobbying but we also need to educate the public on how the wider music industry operates.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jan 21 - 05:15 AM

jack, as regards visa is not ireland an exception as the common travel arrangement between ireland and the uk takes precedence?

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jan 21 - 05:11 AM

yes, it is bad news alright

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 05 Jan 21 - 04:46 AM

Try importing a set of guitar strings now.

https://bylinetimes.com/2021/01/04/uk-faces-trade-boycott-after-brexit-vat-change/

Effectively we are in a self-inflicted siege.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 27 Dec 20 - 09:26 AM

Independent story

That's only about visas. The rest of the bad news will doubtless follow shortly.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Dec 20 - 09:57 PM

From: Jack Campin
Date: 26 Dec 20 - 05:43
. . .
It's as bad as the worst scenario anybody envisioned.
. . .

Not really. You only have to look back a few days to the screed posted by "C21st Primative" to see that things have already moved on. But more will surely come to light.
If you play an instrument, you’ll need an ‘ATA Carnet’ for it, to cross the EU border and any within the EU thereafter. This applies to all kinds of professional equipment you may need
Why will you need a carnet if neither side will impose tariffs on goods being traded, and a zero quota agreement would mean no limit on the quantity of any type of goods that could be traded.

You get an ATA Carnet from the London Chamber of Commerce & Industry and they cost £351.60 each (or £562.80 for their express 2 hr service) and they last 12 months

This is for each instrument/item. Pity the sax player who travels with sop, alto & tenor in her bag, that’s just short of a grand a time. Imagine the bill for an orchestra. Let’s hope those gigs are well paid!
The sax player would only need multiple carnets (if they were even needed) if they were following the suggestions here. A carnet can cover multiple different items for a single fee: Gov.UK

This page at Gov.UK even seems to suggest that paying for a carnet is not necessary if you're willing to do a bit more of the paperwork yourself:
Get an ATA Carnet
You can use an ATA Carnet in around 70 countries.

Countries have their own rules about what goods you can bring in with an ATA Carnet. Check with the issuer in the country you’re exporting to.

If you cannot use an ATA Carnet (or do not want to pay the fee), use a Duplicate List to temporarily export your goods instead.

If for any reason the equipment/instrument you take with you is going to stay in the EU when you come home (ie you sell/rent it/give it away), you will need a C88(SAD) export declaration (just 8 parts, 12 pages to complete) from the UK Govt
Again, if there are zero tariffs, and no quotas, Why?

I would suggest that people wait until this has passed through Parliament, and all the ramifications have been looked at, before trying to spread panic based on individuals assessments which were made before a deal was agreed.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 26 Dec 20 - 05:43 PM

Steve Byrne just relayed a message on FB detailing what Johnson's "deal" means for musicians' visas.

It's as bad as the worst scenario anybody envisioned.

The end, for any UK musicians expecting to tour. And don't expect to see European musicians live again.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 12 Dec 20 - 06:32 AM

For anyone who travels to Europe to sell stuff, like musical instruments at festivals, this does not look like fun.

Permits and fines

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: GUEST,C21st Primitive
Date: 11 Nov 20 - 06:06 PM

Btw, before any Brexit supporters start in with the stirring speeches about the 'will of the people' or petulant 'diddums' type comnents in response to Howard Goodall's concerns, as has happened further up this thread: please don't. You got what you wanted, so enjoy it without further sticking the boot in. Touring musicians and others who are collatoral damage to your ideology have every right to point out, as strongly as they see fit, how this will impact on their ability to do their jobs and earn a living.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: GUEST,C21st Primitive
Date: 11 Nov 20 - 05:48 PM

This is an interesting Twitter thread on the subject by composer and broadcaster Howard Goodall.

Here’s a thread about how our lives are going to change re touring/working in the EU in 50 days time. Think of it as a kind of Bad News Advent calendar. Here goes 1/

First things first, you’ll need a passport with at least 6 months left on it. And you’ll need full travel/third party/health insurance, since if you get ill or have an accident every penny of your care will have to be paid for 2/

To work or do a gig you’re going to need a work visa, just like you do for the USA. But here’s the thing. Work permits & visas and the conditions attached are a matter not for the EU but for the member states themselves 3/

Yes, every member state controls who comes in and who doesn’t and what the rules will be for work and residency. It’s almost as if the Brexiters have been lying about this ALL ALONG. EU members CONTROL THEIR OWN BORDERS 4/

So you’ll need to get a work permit for every country you’re intending to work or gig in and the rules are often different, as are the rules on eg taxation of that work (eg Spain has a withholding tax, France does not) 5/

Yes, every member state in the EU CONTROLS ITS OWN TAXATION POLICY. We already had control of our borders, our currency & our tax as members of the EU: who knew? 6/

[Fun fact: in Germany, you need to verify a contract to work there, the verification needs a passport, and the new Brexity-Blue UK passports are incompatible with the ID system they use. Cheers, Brexit Govt] 7/

If you play an instrument, you’ll need an ‘ATA Carnet’ for it, to cross the EU border and any within the EU thereafter. This applies to all kinds of professional equipment you may need 8/

You get an ATA Carnet from the London Chamber of Commerce & Industry and they cost £351.60 each (or £562.80 for their express 2 hr service) and they last 12 months 9/

This is for each instrument/item. Pity the sax player who travels with sop, alto & tenor in her bag, that’s just short of a grand a time. Imagine the bill for an orchestra. Let’s hope those gigs are well paid! 10/

If for any reason the equipment/instrument you take with you is going to stay in the EU when you come home (ie you sell/rent it/give it away), you will need a C88(SAD) export declaration (just 8 parts, 12 pages to complete) from the UK Govt. 11/

Oh and if your (valuable, old) instrument contains materials derived from any endangered species, eg ivory from elephants, you will need either a FED0172 certificate or a CITES form too, from the APHA Centre in Bristol 12/

Remember, you need to get offered the gig in the first place, competing against our creative counterparts still in the EU, none of whom will cost their employer any of this additional expense or bureaucratic hassle 13/

Ditto dancers, actors, singers, designers, technicians etc 14/

Then there’s getting there. You’ll need your van/haulier to get an EU haulage licence, neither quick nor cheap nor easy (around 80,000 hauliers in the UK are currently after one of the 1,800 available) 15/

And crossing from a non-EU country to an EU one by lorry you’ll need to factor in a long-ish wait at the border. Pre-Brexit average at Dover-Calais was a few minutes per vehicle, Ukraine to Poland (non-EU to EU) anything from 1 to 32 hours. 16/

[BTW, these rules mostly don’t apply to going to the lovely Republic of Ireland, which we LOVE. Thank you, kindly Irish people ????] 17/

When you get across the channel, turn data roaming on your phone OFF, swiftly, or you’ll get stung for big bills now we’ve withdrawn from the EU’s roam-anywhere deal 18/

If you connect with your fans/followers/customers via social media using phone networks, these costs could be colossal, so wait till you find somewhere with free wi-fi! 19/

(If you want to take advantage of the EU’s cheap & easy roaming by cannily buying a burner in eg France with a French number, you’ll need a registered French address to do so fyi) 20/

Maybe you’ve heard about the possibility of an Artists’/Musicians’ Passport, advocated by creative industry unions like @WeAreTheMU, which will save all this bother/expense but as I write this is a dream not a reality. I doubt the words have even crossed Lord Frost’s lips. 21/

That’s because Frosty & his Brexit Overlords in Downing St are WAY more concerned about fishing, an industry over ONE HUNDRED TIMES smaller than the Creative sector. 22/

As far as can be gleaned from the documents published about the negotiations under way, none of the above issues will be resolved in the flimsy deal Trumpy Johnson will try to sell as a triumph. Maybe that’ll change in the remaining days left. Maybe. 23/

Final thought. Everything we do as creative artists - everything - is about removing the barriers between people. We do collaboration, reducing conflict, bringing people closer, unity, friendship, enjoyment & shared experience 24/

We’ll cope, somehow, of course, but forgive us for thinking that the putting up of all these new hurdles, fences & frontiers is pointless, retrogressive & counter-productive and that the swindlers who sold the empty, nationalist elixir are basically bad people. 25/ends

Howard Goodall Twitter Thread

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Nov 20 - 09:28 AM

Having read that page, it was set up 2 years ago, and I can't see the UK being able to set up a passport guaranteeing access to EU markets for travelling musicians. Surely the petition should be addressed to the EU.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Nov 20 - 09:25 AM

That was '100'

This might be the intended link:
Change.org

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: GUEST,C21st Primitive
Date: 09 Nov 20 - 06:11 AM

Regardless of your views on Brexit, please support touring musicians by signing and sharing this petition:

https://www.change.org/p/government-parliament-let-touring-musicians-travel-support-musicians-working-in-the-eu-post-brexit-workingintheeu

---

Link repaired. ---mudelf

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Andy M
Date: 03 Nov 20 - 01:06 PM

'Twas Brexit and the slithy Gove
did gyre and gimble in the wabe.
All mimsy was the Boris grove
and the Cumming, out grabe.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 03 Nov 20 - 07:34 AM

https://www.nme.com/news/non-uk-musicians-will-need-visa-to-perform-in-the-country-from-2021-2612337">https://www.nme.com/news/non-uk-musicians-will-need-visa-to-perform-in-the-country-from-2021-2612337

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 18 Apr 20 - 11:01 AM

Given the closure of Brexit-related threads below the line, this one seems as good a place as any to draw attention to a move to save UK citizens (including, obviously, musicians) from losing our rights as EU citizens.

Support it if you wish. Sorry for bothering you if you don't.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Mr Red
Date: 17 Feb 20 - 03:43 AM

Last Monday's Telegrope (Business pages 1) headline somewhat like:

"Gove admits no smart borders until 2025"

The message I take is that applying for things like export licences or carnets fit this scenario.
I would have expected some on-line form for carnets, sometime, so maybe it will all be piecemeal and not properly joined-up. Like a lot of Government.
When I needed a carnet in the 80's it was large Chambers of Commerce like Birmingham that did the service.

If a pro-Brexshit and pro-Tory paper like that has to publish such headlines you can't dismiss it as rumour. They are pro-business after all.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 05 Feb 20 - 08:21 AM

If you are not a musician or traveling tradesman, Brexit will not be a problem.

Getting deported is a problem for anyone.

And anyone who isn't wealthy or a British citizen is fair game.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Mr Red
Date: 05 Feb 20 - 04:57 AM

So to sum up.
If you are not a musician or traveling tradesman, Brexit will not be a problem. But will cost more.
If you do travel on business (or gig) it will cost additional: time, money and hair!