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Brexit and music

Richard Mellish 15 Feb 21 - 06:18 AM
Jack Campin 14 Feb 21 - 06:50 PM
Jack Campin 27 Jan 21 - 10:01 AM
Jack Campin 25 Jan 21 - 05:50 AM
Howard Jones 24 Jan 21 - 08:54 AM
Richard Mellish 24 Jan 21 - 06:54 AM
Jack Campin 23 Jan 21 - 04:25 PM
DaveRo 19 Jan 21 - 07:22 AM
Jack Campin 19 Jan 21 - 02:47 AM
Jack Campin 18 Jan 21 - 06:38 AM
Jack Campin 17 Jan 21 - 07:44 PM
Richard Mellish 10 Jan 21 - 07:37 AM
Jack Campin 10 Jan 21 - 07:08 AM
Joe G 09 Jan 21 - 07:03 PM
Jack Campin 09 Jan 21 - 04:16 PM
Howard Jones 05 Jan 21 - 10:12 AM
GUEST,Peter 05 Jan 21 - 08:10 AM
The Sandman 05 Jan 21 - 05:15 AM
The Sandman 05 Jan 21 - 05:11 AM
Jack Campin 05 Jan 21 - 04:46 AM
Jack Campin 27 Dec 20 - 09:26 AM
Nigel Parsons 26 Dec 20 - 09:57 PM
Jack Campin 26 Dec 20 - 05:43 PM
Jack Campin 12 Dec 20 - 06:32 AM
GUEST,C21st Primitive 11 Nov 20 - 06:06 PM
GUEST,C21st Primitive 11 Nov 20 - 05:48 PM
Nigel Parsons 09 Nov 20 - 09:28 AM
Nigel Parsons 09 Nov 20 - 09:25 AM
GUEST,C21st Primitive 09 Nov 20 - 06:11 AM
Andy M 03 Nov 20 - 01:06 PM
Jack Campin 03 Nov 20 - 07:34 AM
Richard Mellish 18 Apr 20 - 11:01 AM
Mr Red 17 Feb 20 - 03:43 AM
Jack Campin 05 Feb 20 - 08:21 AM
Mr Red 05 Feb 20 - 04:57 AM
Jack Campin 04 Feb 20 - 08:53 AM
GUEST,Jack Campin 20 Oct 19 - 12:14 PM
Jack Campin 17 Oct 19 - 11:41 AM
Howard Jones 16 Oct 19 - 07:39 AM
Jack Campin 16 Oct 19 - 06:04 AM
Howard Jones 19 Sep 19 - 06:47 AM
GUEST,Observer 17 Sep 19 - 08:40 PM
GUEST,Observer 17 Sep 19 - 10:31 AM
Howard Jones 17 Sep 19 - 08:15 AM
Jack Campin 17 Sep 19 - 07:12 AM
Howard Jones 17 Sep 19 - 06:40 AM
Jack Campin 17 Sep 19 - 06:31 AM
Jack Campin 17 Sep 19 - 05:59 AM
GUEST,Observer 17 Sep 19 - 05:28 AM
GUEST,Joe G 17 Sep 19 - 04:31 AM
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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 15 Feb 21 - 06:18 AM

Not spares for musical instruments, but in the last week or so I have received some data cables from Germany and a book from Sweden.


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 14 Feb 21 - 06:50 PM

Things I would like to order shortly from small firms abroad:

Oud strings from Germany
Ebony pegs from Germany
Ocarinas from Italy
Software download from Greece
Books and book/CD sets from Turkey

Anybody had any luck with that sort of purchase lately?


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 27 Jan 21 - 10:01 AM

And can Brexit even manage to fuck up mediaeval music? You bet. From Elizabeth Eva Leach at DIAMM (the Digital Image Archive of Mediæval Music) at Oxford, on Twitter:

"So, to get the @diammpub equipment across the border to the EU now, we need to have a cash float of just over £22k. DIAMM does not have this kind of ready money, so the UK govt has made a flagship digitization project that's been running for 2 decades suddenly unworkable."


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 25 Jan 21 - 05:50 AM

Thomann and VAT


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 24 Jan 21 - 08:54 AM

Fish's piece is at the top of his Facebook feed. Here it is. It's a long read, but stick with it. If an established artist like him can't see a future, what hope have the up-and-comiong bands got?

THE FIRST WHAMMY - this is a long post but please read through before commenting
How Brexit Has Destroyed UK Artists’ Ability To Tour In The EU – by Fish (21 st Jan, 2021)
I’m still reeling from the new regulations revealed by the UK Government just over 2 weeks ago regarding touring in the European Union post Brexit. I’ve been trying to make sense of it
all from all the sometimes contradictory and often vague information available on various websites that are constantly being updated and working out how this affects my own business and career. It’s quite frankly confounding.
I’ve grown tired of hearing “So what did musicians do before we joined the EU then?”.#
In 1973 when the UK joined the EU I was 15 years old and the Global Music Industry revenues were around 5 billion US dollars. By the turn of the century they were around $25 billion and today worth around $21 billion with the UK music industry generating $7.5 billion. That is a figure that doesn’t even take in the vast independent network or all the ancillary workers and bolt on industries that contribute hugely these days to the International music business.
As an example, my album sales don’t even count as I’m not officially chart ‘registered’ and on unofficial figures I had a Top 10 album in the UK with over 10 000 physical mail order sales of my 11 th solo album, ‘Weltschmerz’ in the first week of release in October 2020. A purely independent release. A tree in the forest. And there are a lot of trees out there.
It’s a huge industry generating nearly 4 times more than the UK fishing industry which despite a loud lobbying voice has its own valid frustrations at this time as we deal with all this weight of bureaucracy now foisted upon us by Brexit.
To put things a bit in perspective ‘The Who’ between 1963 and 1973 played only around 55 shows in the current EU countries. I have 27 EU shows and 5 in Scandinavia rescheduled from last year going out across 43 days in the Autumn of this year. That is more than half of the 90 out of 180 days I am allowed to be in the EU under the new rules. If these shows had gone ahead as planned in 2020 I would have been booking further shows in the early part of this year, if the new regulations allowed. Taking into account any
EU festivals which are normally a 3-day venture across a performance, plus any promotion trips which would also have to be added to my tally, as well as personal visits to my German
family, and those 90 days in 180 fast disappear.
The visa/ permit situation has a major impact. From what I’ve discovered so far we now need permits for every country in the EU. In Holland for example the administration/ processing costs of a permit are around £250 per person not including the instigation and set up on our end. I carry a 10-person team; 6 musicians including myself, a back-line tech, a sound engineer, a lighting/projection tech and a production manager.
If the permits are for every individual country and of similar amounts then I have around £2500 in extra costs on permits alone for every EU country we perform in. This will rule out single shows in countries such as France and Belgium where I play medium club size gigs and put a lot of pressure on future shows in Spain and Italy where I normally have a brace of gigs of around 5-800 capacity. These shows are already squeaky as we work to minimum
guarantees that cover only costs from promoters and the visa/ permit charge represents nearly 50% of those guarantees. Some shows will quite simply become financially unfeasible
on potential permit costs alone.
Compared to many artists I operate with a very tight crew and I have to keep it lean to make the figures work and keep us on the road and earning a living for everyone concerned. I have learned to manage myself - thus saving 20% of my gross income, which can be used to finance touring - and have ‘assassinated’ as many middle men as possible to enable me to continue making music and perform shows. It’s a lot of work for someone who just wants
to be an artist but if I don’t take on these responsibilities myself I couldn’t make a living. And I am an established artist! I’ve just been handed a live grenade with the pin pulled out.
My heart goes out to musicians starting out in small clubs and at the beginning of their careers who have to find that money in advance of tours. Artists signed to major labels have a better chance but for independents it’s a killer.
Crew members and session musicians have an added hit from the newly limited time allowed in the EU. Most techs and session musicians make a living by touring with a variety of artists throughout the year and they will now be unable, or find it very difficult, to juggle schedules to adhere to the new rules on travel. In short UK based touring personnel will be hamstrung and UK artists might have to consider taking on EU based crew and musicians to
get around the restrictions – thus depriving their long-standing UK crew of being able to make a living.
We now have to have our passports stamped at every border crossing in order to officially document the time we spend in various countries as per the visas/ permits. At those crossings we must get a carnet stamped. This is a UK generated document that identifies and lists every piece of equipment carried out of the UK from guitars and amps to strings, drums and sticks and skins, keyboards etc. It is used to show that we take the equipment out
and cross every border with the same manifest and return to the UK with exactly the same contents. The carnet basically shows that we haven’t exported anything for sale to another country and haven’t imported anything out with the manifest. It has to be stamped going in and out of every country and miss a stamp and you walk into a nightmare of bureaucracy and potential heavy fines. (I’ve had to fly someone to Switzerland with supporting legal documents to have a carnet stamped that was missed as there was no one available at that time in the morning at the border as we were gig bound on a tight schedule)
At the border crossings the customs officers are totally within their rights to ask for an entire truck or trailer to be unloaded and examined to see if it matches the carnet documents. Protests on time constraints are a waste of energy and the tour-bus drivers just have to wait while the digital tachographs count down their drive time available. And the drivers’ operating and rest time in these potential circumstances has to be taken into consideration.
Being stopped for a couple of hours during the night at a border check could take a driver out of the legal time allowed at the wheel. In order to make sure we get to places we are supposed to be, the only solution now is to take on double drivers, who would normally only come on board for long hauls such as in Scandinavia or occasional big drives. Having 2 drivers full time on an entire tour just keeps on adding to the costs with not only their wages but hotel rooms and catering. The risks of losing shows because a driver is out of hours aren’t worth taking.
Yes, carnets existed before Brexit but they were only needed up till now in Switzerland and Norway. It’s now across every European country and every border crossing where they will
have to be stamped for the first time since 1973; 48 years ago, when amplifiers only had valves and ‘digital’ was a word in Science Fiction books. Legal drive time didn’t exist in 1973.
We pay tax in all the countries we play in Europe. For example in Germany it’s about 19% on the gross fee received from the promoter and unless you are represented by a German
based company who can reclaim some costs such as tour buses at around £1400 a day, hotels for any day off at over £1200 a night for the team, and various other production costs which include a contribution to crew wages, the tax is taken from the top.
When you pay those taxes you receive a credit note from the respective tax authority and that is provided to HMRC to put against your UK taxes. It’s called a reciprocal tax
agreement. I paid over £25k in withholding tax in the EU in 2018 on one tour after allowances for costs because I had a German agent.
Up till now I have not had an answer as to whether that still applies. Do we still get that allowance or will only a percentage of it apply if at all? At the moment my tax advisors don’t know. I’m supposed to be on tour in 8 months and don’t even know if it’s actually financially feasible. The contracts were signed in late 2019 and don’t take into consideration any post Brexit financial implications as no one knew what they were until 2 weeks ago.
We will now have to deal with the respective ‘national insurances’ in every country on top of the income tax. That applies to everyone in the band and crew and requires more paperwork and applications.
We will now also have to register for VAT in every EU country if we want to sell merchandise on the road and claim back VAT from costs. All taxes have to be paid in full before any merch leaves the UK and declarations could have to be made at every national border. If we are not registered then it’s near impossible to reclaim back the respective national VAT. As an example the German nightliner tour bus on the next alleged tour has around £13 000
VAT we now become liable for. This means more accountancy bills, more middlemen, more bureaucracy.
Like most other artists, I need merchandise sales on tour to supplement my income and allow us to play shows in areas where the promoter’s guarantee from ticket sales falls short of the costs required to perform there. As an independent artist a large amount of my album sales are on the road at the merchandise stall. Streaming changed the ball game and as a result, physical album sales in traditional record stores have collapsed compared to when I started in the music business 40 years ago, so playing live has become the principal source of income for many musicians
and bands. This comes through gig fees and direct-to-customer album and merchandise sales.
And I am a recognised artist with a loyal fanbase and playing decent size venues. I’ve managed through trial and error over time to find a model that works. I’m not in a new band making its first forays into Europe taking the big jump and betting on a chance to break into what is still the third biggest music market in the World, just a few miles on a ferry across the Channel. How are they supposed to find visa fees especially if they are an independent outfit? How do they front costs for that valuable merch that could be their only wages on a gig? The wages that pay their rent and the rehearsal rooms and fuel in the tank? How does the next young Iron Maiden, Simple Minds, The Cure or dare I say Marillion break
into the EU market now? From where is the UK government going to replace those potential future tax revenues from successful bands? Do they care? It certainly doesn’t appear so,
especially for the non-corporate bands.
These are just some of the razor wire hurdles I’ve come across so far since the new Brexit rules were published just a couple of weeks ago. Prior to that I’ve been discussing probabilities with fellow professionals, tour and production managers, accountants, and
advisors for well over 18 months trying to discover how this was all going to affect us – but the government left it so late, none of us have been able to prepare. Tours are booked over a year in advance and there is a lot of detailed planning involved. I’m used to that. And still no one seems to be any clearer on what is happening.
Some have accused the live music industry of not facing reality after the Brexit vote was determined by the accumulative vote across the UK. That is most definitely not true. We have been trying to read the runes and the smoke for a very long time and being in an industry that has to continually adjust to outside factors on a sometimes-daily basis while on the road we are accustomed to extraneous demands. Taking a double-barrelled shotgun to
our feet was not anywhere in the equation.
I’m not an accountant, never wanted to be. I wanted to be a creative artist and performer who could ply my trade and earn a living across borders, and especially in Europe, our closest neighbours and as I said the third biggest music market in the world next to the USA and Japan. It appears that the only sector benefitting from all these new regulations are accountants and advisors, and all those costs will percolate through to album and concert ticket prices.
And all of this during a pandemic that has crippled the music industry and put thousands out of work for an indefinite time.
I always look for silver linings with regards to my own situation and the only thing I can grasp on to is that my own postponed tour gives me preparation time to take on these seemingly constantly changing regulations and find a way forward. Some may say visa/permit costs, tax changes etc are negligible and part of the ‘cost’ of this current mess. For an arena level band, that may be so. It’s mostly an accountancy issue and they will usually have a wider
organisation who can focus on paperwork, but for others at my level and below it’s the difference between having a tour and a career in the music business or not.
And now? Where am I?
A 32 date European and Scandinavian tour looming in September with rehearsals necessary in August; an increasingly raging virus, nationwide vaccinations still a long way off, no
insurance for anything Covid related, promoters suggesting renegotiations of contracts for potential social distancing (impossible and refused), vastly increased merchandise
commission of around 20% of the gross sales (plus VAT) expected as venues and corporate entities involved try to recover losses and all of the above previously mentioned.
Is it going to happen? I wouldn’t buy tickets and incur fees that are non-returnable until I knew for certain the tour was happening. I certainly can’t hold up my hand and say I will be on tour in September or at any point this year.
And now, take another step back on this and look from the other side. I am on tour, potentially unvaccinated. Our tour merchandiser faces the public every night. She contracts the virus and we have maybe 10 days before she shows symptoms, and we are all together on a bus every day. Meanwhile in 10 days we could be in 7 cities intermingling with house crews, journalists, promoters, members of the general public etc. One band, one bus - one
potential travelling super-spreading Covid generator.
The tour is scheduled to start in just over 8 months, and we are still in lockdown here for perhaps another month and beyond. We should be looking at applying for visas/ permits by the beginning of summer latest to ensure we are regulatory compliable? And that means I will need to pay out £15k for work permits/visas we might not even need and in my opinion shouldn’t even be required in the first place?
The ‘bandwagon’ was already stalled by the pandemic and now bureaucracy has slashed the tyres and thrown sand in the engine while laying a minefield on the road with no maps to trust.
All the info I’ve related comes from current valid and credible sources. It’s not ‘fake news’ or ‘Remainer bullshit’. This is what I have discovered so far and what is being revealed on a day-to-day basis - on government and official websites which are constantly updated - still remains vague and doesn’t address specific questions we genuinely need answers to. It’s all real and at the moment it’s all that we know now.
I genuinely despair at the current state of the music industry and the dreams that are being broken on these rocks. I’m 63 this year and immensely grateful for what the music industry and the fans of my music have given me over the last 40 years. I just can’t imagine what it’s like for a young artist in these present times. I planned to retire from live music in 2023 and have just lost 2 years on a road I seriously don’t know if I will ever revisit.
We, the music business, and industry of the UK are currently in a perilous state. After all we have given to the world over the last 50 years and more; the revenue and cultural recognition that has been provided to this country through the musicians and technicians
and every ancillary member of the live music communities with their writing, creations, and performances. We deserve better than this from our elected government. We need a rethink,
and we need it sooner rather than later as our future is in jeopardy
Fish


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 24 Jan 21 - 06:54 AM

(Apropos the petition)
Government responded

This response was given on 14 January 2021

"During our negotiations, we proposed measures to allow creative professionals to travel and perform in both the UK and EU, without needing work-permits. Unfortunately, the EU rejected these proposals."

That is an excellent example of being economical with the truth. It is perfectly true, and thoroughly misleading.


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 23 Jan 21 - 04:25 PM

I can't find it again, but there was a very long and very articulate piece on FB from Fish (ex Marillion) pointing out how bad Brexit was even for a fairly successful musician like himself - and that it would finish the careers of smaller fry before they even got started.


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: DaveRo
Date: 19 Jan 21 - 07:22 AM

This petition was started some weeks ago:
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/563294


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 19 Jan 21 - 02:47 AM

Scottish National Party takes this to Parliament: Pete Wishart


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 18 Jan 21 - 06:38 AM

Petition about this:

https://hey-mp.uk/?c=music


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 17 Jan 21 - 07:44 PM

Simon Rattle applies for German citizenship


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 10 Jan 21 - 07:37 AM

You can always rely on Boris -- to let you down.

He and his cronies must have much to gain from Brexit to have pursued it so determinedly, but there are no positives for most of us and very many negatives. These restrictions on musicians just add to the charge sheet.


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 10 Jan 21 - 07:08 AM

More reactions to that story


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Joe G
Date: 09 Jan 21 - 07:03 PM

I think that has surprised nobody! Appalling attitude to both our own musicians and to those of the EU who bring such superb music to the UK. Our own musicians will be the real losers in this though as those in the EU will be able to travel freely. The Tories have no interest in culture - especially when it comes to grassroots music


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 09 Jan 21 - 04:16 PM

It now comes out that the Johnson regime was offered a solution and refused it.


https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/uk-visa-free-work-musicians-eu-brexit-b1784600.html


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 05 Jan 21 - 10:12 AM

The government is claiming that the UK pushed for a more ambitious agreement with the EU on the temporary movement of business travellers, which would have covered musicians and others, but our proposals were rejected by the EU.

However it's not just visas. Whether or not a work visa is required, customs in both the UK and EU will still probably require a carnet listing all the equipment, and there will still be a need for Musical Instrument Certificates for CITES.


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 05 Jan 21 - 08:10 AM

When I see this discussed on non-music forums the general response is along the lines of "big stadium bands play outside the EU without problem so why will this be a problem?"

Without wider support it will be difficult to get traction on this in the corridors or power. Not only do we need to be lobbying but we also need to educate the public on how the wider music industry operates.


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jan 21 - 05:15 AM

jack, as regards visa is not ireland an exception as the common travel arrangement between ireland and the uk takes precedence?


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jan 21 - 05:11 AM

yes, it is bad news alright


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 05 Jan 21 - 04:46 AM

Try importing a set of guitar strings now.

https://bylinetimes.com/2021/01/04/uk-faces-trade-boycott-after-brexit-vat-change/

Effectively we are in a self-inflicted siege.


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 27 Dec 20 - 09:26 AM

Independent story

That's only about visas. The rest of the bad news will doubtless follow shortly.


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Dec 20 - 09:57 PM

From: Jack Campin
Date: 26 Dec 20 - 05:43
. . .
It's as bad as the worst scenario anybody envisioned.
. . .


Not really. You only have to look back a few days to the screed posted by "C21st Primative" to see that things have already moved on. But more will surely come to light.
If you play an instrument, you’ll need an ‘ATA Carnet’ for it, to cross the EU border and any within the EU thereafter. This applies to all kinds of professional equipment you may need
Why will you need a carnet if neither side will impose tariffs on goods being traded, and a zero quota agreement would mean no limit on the quantity of any type of goods that could be traded.

You get an ATA Carnet from the London Chamber of Commerce & Industry and they cost £351.60 each (or £562.80 for their express 2 hr service) and they last 12 months

This is for each instrument/item. Pity the sax player who travels with sop, alto & tenor in her bag, that’s just short of a grand a time. Imagine the bill for an orchestra. Let’s hope those gigs are well paid!

The sax player would only need multiple carnets (if they were even needed) if they were following the suggestions here. A carnet can cover multiple different items for a single fee: Gov.UK

This page at Gov.UK even seems to suggest that paying for a carnet is not necessary if you're willing to do a bit more of the paperwork yourself:
Get an ATA Carnet
You can use an ATA Carnet in around 70 countries.

Countries have their own rules about what goods you can bring in with an ATA Carnet. Check with the issuer in the country you’re exporting to.

If you cannot use an ATA Carnet (or do not want to pay the fee), use a Duplicate List to temporarily export your goods instead.


If for any reason the equipment/instrument you take with you is going to stay in the EU when you come home (ie you sell/rent it/give it away), you will need a C88(SAD) export declaration (just 8 parts, 12 pages to complete) from the UK Govt
Again, if there are zero tariffs, and no quotas, Why?

I would suggest that people wait until this has passed through Parliament, and all the ramifications have been looked at, before trying to spread panic based on individuals assessments which were made before a deal was agreed.


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 26 Dec 20 - 05:43 PM

Steve Byrne just relayed a message on FB detailing what Johnson's "deal" means for musicians' visas.

It's as bad as the worst scenario anybody envisioned.

The end, for any UK musicians expecting to tour. And don't expect to see European musicians live again.


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 12 Dec 20 - 06:32 AM

For anyone who travels to Europe to sell stuff, like musical instruments at festivals, this does not look like fun.

Permits and fines


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: GUEST,C21st Primitive
Date: 11 Nov 20 - 06:06 PM

Btw, before any Brexit supporters start in with the stirring speeches about the 'will of the people' or petulant 'diddums' type comnents in response to Howard Goodall's concerns, as has happened further up this thread: please don't. You got what you wanted, so enjoy it without further sticking the boot in. Touring musicians and others who are collatoral damage to your ideology have every right to point out, as strongly as they see fit, how this will impact on their ability to do their jobs and earn a living.


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: GUEST,C21st Primitive
Date: 11 Nov 20 - 05:48 PM

This is an interesting Twitter thread on the subject by composer and broadcaster Howard Goodall.

Here’s a thread about how our lives are going to change re touring/working in the EU in 50 days time. Think of it as a kind of Bad News Advent calendar. Here goes 1/

First things first, you’ll need a passport with at least 6 months left on it. And you’ll need full travel/third party/health insurance, since if you get ill or have an accident every penny of your care will have to be paid for 2/

To work or do a gig you’re going to need a work visa, just like you do for the USA. But here’s the thing. Work permits & visas and the conditions attached are a matter not for the EU but for the member states themselves 3/

Yes, every member state controls who comes in and who doesn’t and what the rules will be for work and residency. It’s almost as if the Brexiters have been lying about this ALL ALONG. EU members CONTROL THEIR OWN BORDERS 4/

So you’ll need to get a work permit for every country you’re intending to work or gig in and the rules are often different, as are the rules on eg taxation of that work (eg Spain has a withholding tax, France does not) 5/

Yes, every member state in the EU CONTROLS ITS OWN TAXATION POLICY. We already had control of our borders, our currency & our tax as members of the EU: who knew? 6/

[Fun fact: in Germany, you need to verify a contract to work there, the verification needs a passport, and the new Brexity-Blue UK passports are incompatible with the ID system they use. Cheers, Brexit Govt] 7/

If you play an instrument, you’ll need an ‘ATA Carnet’ for it, to cross the EU border and any within the EU thereafter. This applies to all kinds of professional equipment you may need 8/

You get an ATA Carnet from the London Chamber of Commerce & Industry and they cost £351.60 each (or £562.80 for their express 2 hr service) and they last 12 months 9/

This is for each instrument/item. Pity the sax player who travels with sop, alto & tenor in her bag, that’s just short of a grand a time. Imagine the bill for an orchestra. Let’s hope those gigs are well paid! 10/

If for any reason the equipment/instrument you take with you is going to stay in the EU when you come home (ie you sell/rent it/give it away), you will need a C88(SAD) export declaration (just 8 parts, 12 pages to complete) from the UK Govt. 11/

Oh and if your (valuable, old) instrument contains materials derived from any endangered species, eg ivory from elephants, you will need either a FED0172 certificate or a CITES form too, from the APHA Centre in Bristol 12/

Remember, you need to get offered the gig in the first place, competing against our creative counterparts still in the EU, none of whom will cost their employer any of this additional expense or bureaucratic hassle 13/

Ditto dancers, actors, singers, designers, technicians etc 14/

Then there’s getting there. You’ll need your van/haulier to get an EU haulage licence, neither quick nor cheap nor easy (around 80,000 hauliers in the UK are currently after one of the 1,800 available) 15/

And crossing from a non-EU country to an EU one by lorry you’ll need to factor in a long-ish wait at the border. Pre-Brexit average at Dover-Calais was a few minutes per vehicle, Ukraine to Poland (non-EU to EU) anything from 1 to 32 hours. 16/

[BTW, these rules mostly don’t apply to going to the lovely Republic of Ireland, which we LOVE. Thank you, kindly Irish people ????] 17/

When you get across the channel, turn data roaming on your phone OFF, swiftly, or you’ll get stung for big bills now we’ve withdrawn from the EU’s roam-anywhere deal 18/

If you connect with your fans/followers/customers via social media using phone networks, these costs could be colossal, so wait till you find somewhere with free wi-fi! 19/

(If you want to take advantage of the EU’s cheap & easy roaming by cannily buying a burner in eg France with a French number, you’ll need a registered French address to do so fyi) 20/

Maybe you’ve heard about the possibility of an Artists’/Musicians’ Passport, advocated by creative industry unions like @WeAreTheMU, which will save all this bother/expense but as I write this is a dream not a reality. I doubt the words have even crossed Lord Frost’s lips. 21/

That’s because Frosty & his Brexit Overlords in Downing St are WAY more concerned about fishing, an industry over ONE HUNDRED TIMES smaller than the Creative sector. 22/

As far as can be gleaned from the documents published about the negotiations under way, none of the above issues will be resolved in the flimsy deal Trumpy Johnson will try to sell as a triumph. Maybe that’ll change in the remaining days left. Maybe. 23/

Final thought. Everything we do as creative artists - everything - is about removing the barriers between people. We do collaboration, reducing conflict, bringing people closer, unity, friendship, enjoyment & shared experience 24/

We’ll cope, somehow, of course, but forgive us for thinking that the putting up of all these new hurdles, fences & frontiers is pointless, retrogressive & counter-productive and that the swindlers who sold the empty, nationalist elixir are basically bad people. 25/ends

Howard Goodall Twitter Thread


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Nov 20 - 09:28 AM

Having read that page, it was set up 2 years ago, and I can't see the UK being able to set up a passport guaranteeing access to EU markets for travelling musicians. Surely the petition should be addressed to the EU.


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Nov 20 - 09:25 AM

That was '100'

This might be the intended link:
Change.org


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: GUEST,C21st Primitive
Date: 09 Nov 20 - 06:11 AM

Regardless of your views on Brexit, please support touring musicians by signing and sharing this petition:

https://www.change.org/p/government-parliament-let-touring-musicians-travel-support-musicians-working-in-the-eu-post-brexit-workingintheeu


Link repaired. ---mudelf


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Andy M
Date: 03 Nov 20 - 01:06 PM

'Twas Brexit and the slithy Gove
did gyre and gimble in the wabe.
All mimsy was the Boris grove
and the Cumming, out grabe.


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 03 Nov 20 - 07:34 AM

https://www.nme.com/news/non-uk-musicians-will-need-visa-to-perform-in-the-country-from-2021-2612337">https://www.nme.com/news/non-uk-musicians-will-need-visa-to-perform-in-the-country-from-2021-2612337


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 18 Apr 20 - 11:01 AM

Given the closure of Brexit-related threads below the line, this one seems as good a place as any to draw attention to a move to save UK citizens (including, obviously, musicians) from losing our rights as EU citizens.

Support it if you wish. Sorry for bothering you if you don't.


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Mr Red
Date: 17 Feb 20 - 03:43 AM

Last Monday's Telegrope (Business pages 1) headline somewhat like:

"Gove admits no smart borders until 2025"

The message I take is that applying for things like export licences or carnets fit this scenario.
I would have expected some on-line form for carnets, sometime, so maybe it will all be piecemeal and not properly joined-up. Like a lot of Government.
When I needed a carnet in the 80's it was large Chambers of Commerce like Birmingham that did the service.

If a pro-Brexshit and pro-Tory paper like that has to publish such headlines you can't dismiss it as rumour. They are pro-business after all.


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 05 Feb 20 - 08:21 AM

If you are not a musician or traveling tradesman, Brexit will not be a problem.

Getting deported is a problem for anyone.

And anyone who isn't wealthy or a British citizen is fair game.


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Mr Red
Date: 05 Feb 20 - 04:57 AM

So to sum up.
If you are not a musician or traveling tradesman, Brexit will not be a problem. But will cost more.
If you do travel on business (or gig) it will cost additional: time, money and hair!


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 04 Feb 20 - 08:53 AM

How many musicians earn more than £35,000?

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2016/mar/12/eu-workers-deported-earning-less-35000-employees-americans-australians


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 20 Oct 19 - 12:14 PM

Born in the UK in 1983 and the Home Office wants her gone...

Burni Thomas, jazz singer


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 11:41 AM

Musicians Union statement today


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 07:39 AM

The issue over internet trading had been almost sorted out. A few years ago the rules on VAT were changed so that it was charged in the customer's country rather than the vendor's. Whereas in the UK there is a minimum turnover threshold below which you don't pay VAT, that didn't apply to digital sales, so if someone in France bought a digital album from a musician in the UK, the seller would have to add French VAT. A complicated system was set up called VATMOSS so that this could all be dealt with through HMRC, rather than having to register and submit forms in 27 countries, which still wasn't great but was the least bad solution. How VATMOSS will work after Brexit is still probably unclear.

Fortunately so far as most musicians are concerned Bandcamp, CD Baby and the other digital platforms agreed to deal with all this so musicians don't have to handle masses of paperwork for the sake of a few quid in tax. However if you sell digital services directly eg online lessons then it may still be a problem, and one which I can only see getting worse unless something is resolved soon.


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 06:04 AM

From Huw Williams, on FB. Not much sign of those great deals we'll get once out of the EU, is there?

Yesterday I went to a government organised event called Get Ready For Brexit. Some of my musician colleagues asked me to report back so here is what I have learnt so far if you tour Europe as many of my colleagues do.

Here are the changes that will happen in a no deal situation. However check details yourself too if you can. I am not an expert so don’t just rely on this information but this is what I gleaned from the experts there.

You will need a work visa for each country. You can’t have one that covers the whole EU. So if you play a gig in France and then pop over to Germany and/or Spain you will need separate work visas for each country. The cost of the visa will depend on each country’s rules. As you know work visas can be quite expensive so check first before discussing fees.

You will need a carnet. That is an official form stamped before you go listing everything you are taking with you such as musical instruments, any equipment such as leads mics etc. They think this will cover the whole of the EU so just one needed. This will also cost money but no one was sure how much.

If you take CDs or other merchandise you will need to pay an import tax and VAT or that country’s equivalent of VAT. Cost will depend on each country. So there will be something to pay for each country you visit.

If you are supplying a service over the phone or by internet from this country this makes no difference. There will still be tariffs to pay. How this will work who knows. So if you are a UK based agent for example dealing with people in the EU over the phone or by internet you are supplying a service. So there will be tariffs to pay. It doesn’t matter that you are based in the UK.

Also many of the deals that have been made are between the EU and other countries through out the world. So if there is an EU deal for example between the EU and the USA or Australia the UK are no longer part of that deal so the UK have to start again. Hope that makes sense.

Also you will need a driving permit

I was advised to go to the government site dealing with Brexit so you can look up each individual country and examine what the rules would be.


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 19 Sep 19 - 06:47 AM

I can't recall if I've previously posted this link to this report by the Incorporated Society of Musicians. Apologies if I have, but it's worth reading and confirms in some detail that the concerns raised during this thread are not imaginary.

ISM updated report on Brexit May 2019

I realise that for some the benefits of Brexit outweigh any of the downsides. That in itself is a valid opinion to hold (although obviously not one I share), but please don't pretend that the downsides don't exist or don't matter, or that they won't have a real impact on people's lives and livelihoods.

Of course, this may all be avoided if a new deal can be done with the EU. But until then this will be the new reality.


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 17 Sep 19 - 08:40 PM

Mr Jones, what will happen will happen. Things will change irrevocably whether we remain or leave. I personally think that upholding democracy is a damned sight more important than a hell of a lot of things that have been discussed here regarding whether or not it is easier or more difficult for musicians to sell CDs and go on tour - If the musicians have the talent and the following they will be fine no matter what happens. If they don't then they never were going to make it anyhow - that is the reality. Always was always will be.

What has happened in the UK is that what is important now is not Brexit, leave or remain, Parliament and a group of Remain MPs have set themselves against the clearly expressed wishes of the majority of those who voted to leave the EU on the 23rd June 2016. In 2017, 86% of those MPs were specifically elected on a platform that promised the electorate that they would respect the Referendum result and that they would implement Brexit - 75% of them have singularly failed to do so - in fact they have put 1005 of their efforts into overturning the referendum decision. They clearly do not want "No-Deal" they clearly want "No Brexit" but haven't the guts to admit it. Well the LibDems have but they will get nowhere with it, as always.

I do not think for one second that most who post on this forum have any idea of how angry and how completely disillusioned the British public are with their politicians at the moment. No wonder none of those currently sitting in Parliament want a General Election to be called at the moment - most of them would be out on their arses in a trice and they know it.
The original post:
"We have other Brexit threads. Can we keep this one absolutely on topic for music related issues? - i.e. mods, can any general political posts be deleted immediately?
So if it doesn't involve music, please don't post it. Thank you - mod.


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 17 Sep 19 - 10:31 AM

"The idea that the UK will be better connected to the outside world after Brexit is mendacious bollocks" hardly in the spirit of this thread BUT - a couple of irrefutable observations with regard to the UK's connections with the outside world:

1. Commonwealth of Nations, second largest international body after the United Nations - the UK is the founding member of this organisation which links the UK to a market of 2,418,964,000 people in 53 countries.

2. For the last nine, yes that is right NINE, years the UK has traded more with the rest of the world than it has within the EU. That trend is ongoing and increasing. There is little that we have "traditionally" bought from the EU that we cannot find from elsewhere in the world.

3. The UK's deficit trading pattern with the EU is such that if we remain in it the UK gets poorer and poorer and Germany gets richer each year. With full implementation of the Treaty of Lisbon, our annual rebate disappears, as does our veto, our contributions also increase and we have to adopt the Euro as our currency. So far 31 companies have been enticed out of the UK by the EU with EU loans and grants that the UK contributes to [We are one of the five members of the EU that back the ECB]. They have moved to countries in Eastern Europe or to countries outside the EU altogether - So in the EU the UK pays to ship UK jobs abroad. If we leave then maybe they'll have to relocate German and French companies instead.

As far as the case of Elizabeth Ford goes, she was granted Leave To Remain by the Home Office, if that was issued in error due to a Home Office mistake then her case against them is watertight and I guess the Guardian and the person who wrote the article knows that full well. Had this been a UK citizen in the USA, his, or her, feet would not have touched the ground. They are much harsher on visa infringements than the UK are [Same thing applies with regard to Canada and Australia if memory serves].


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 17 Sep 19 - 08:15 AM

The Elizabeth Ford case (and others like her) is an entirely home-grown problem caused by the Home Office's 'hostile environment'. It isn't a Brexit issue, except that EU citizens will now be vulnerable to similar persecution.

The US has always been difficult to enter, even as a tourist. I first visited in 1976, during it's Bicentennial Year, which was perhaps the first time it had marketed itself as a tourist destination. The message appeared not to have reached the immigration officials, who didn't seem capable of imagining that someone might come to America and nevertheless want to go home afterwards. However, from what I hear entering the UK isn't much better, especially if you come from Africa or Asia.

Brexit was sold to us on the basis that we would be able to negotiate a new and positive relationship with the EU. I very much hope that will still be possible, although we have tested their patience and forbearance severely, and that we might be able to put arrangements in place which will allow us to travel for work or pleasure with the minimum of interference. Perhaps when all this settles down the politicians on both sides of the argument will no longer feel they need to take such polarised positions and will be able to make the compromises necessary to reach a deal.


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 17 Sep 19 - 07:12 AM

I certainly hope, and indeed expect, that in time the UK will be able to agree new arrangements with the EU and that these will include arrangements which will allow musicians to tour with the minimum of additional bureaucracy and cost.

Cases like Elizabeth Ford's, and the problems UK musicians have in touring the US, show how little the UK is able or willing to do without the EU's assistance and coercion. There will be no mitigation of the catastrophe.


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 17 Sep 19 - 06:40 AM

The millennium bug turned out to be largely a non-event because of a great deal of work by programmers to check software and rewrite it where necessary.

The millennium bug -was it a myth?

I know people in IT who confirm this from their own experience.

The Brexit equivalent would be to leave with a deal. I've no idea whether or not that will happen, but if we don't then we can expect all the issues raised in this thread to take effect. I certainly hope, and indeed expect, that in time the UK will be able to agree new arrangements with the EU and that these will include arrangements which will allow musicians to tour with the minimum of additional bureaucracy and cost. However no one can say how long this might take, and I also expect that the needs of musicians and other performers will be a low priority compared with maintaining supplies of food and essential medicines.


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 17 Sep 19 - 06:31 AM

Young maker of Irish-style flutes leaving England for Ireland.

Damien Thompson

He doesn't mention Brexit apart from a hint that "the time has come" - you bet it has.


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 17 Sep 19 - 05:59 AM

Guardian story on Elizabeth Ford

And no it wasn't the EU's initiative to exile her. The idea that the UK will be better connected to the outside world after Brexit is mendacious bollocks.


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 17 Sep 19 - 05:28 AM

As one of the main aims of Brexit is to enable the UK to trade freely with the rest of the world free of interference from the EU [A trading block that is markedly "protectionist"] it seems rather odd for those supporting Brexit to be labelled "isolationists" - Just a historical note but at no time at all in the entire history of the British Isles has Britain EVER been "isolationist" - On the other hand Europe under the rule of various conquerors has prohibited trade with Britain.

I dare say that Brexit when it happens, for happen it most certainly will, will come and go and be very much like the non-event that was "the millennium bug". Nothing stays the same - especially not the EU - In 1975 I was asked to vote for or against our continued membership in a trading partnership and on that occasion I voted for it. Neither myself or any other member of the electorate of this country was asked about that membership being transferred to any fiscal, or federalist political union [Maastricht]. The original version of the Treaty of Lisbon was rejected via referendums in three other EU member States, so the EU took it away and tweaked it and brought it back in through the back-door in a much reduce form. So if things do change then musicians, performers, etc, if they want to make a living had best change with them.


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 17 Sep 19 - 04:31 AM

Yes my comment was a generality but I was speaking more broadly of the population rather than those on here. I think the very fact that many Brexiteers are isolationist (and a proportion are racists) suggests that they are unlikely to be interested in the music of other countries and cultures


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