Brexit and music

Subject: Brexit and music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 10:53 AM

We have other Brexit threads. Can we keep this one absolutely on topic for music related issues? - i.e. mods, can any general political posts be deleted immediately?

I didn't realize the VAT issue was this bad:

https://www.rawmusictv.com/article/amp/2019/UK-bands-now-have-to-pay-import-duty-and-VAT-on-ALL-merchandise-before-even-entering-Europe-to-tour

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Rain Dog
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 11:11 AM

Of course we will have to wait and see what is finally agreed between us and the EU but it is going to be that bit more difficult taking goods into the EU. As of course it was before we became full members of the EU. People toured then and no doubt will tour again. Just not as carefree as it has been.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Mr Red
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 11:59 AM

I think you will find it will be covered by online documentation where you declare it is for use not for sale. The paper process was in use even while we were in the EC. Certainly in 1985/6 I had to drive to Birmingham to get the document. Called a carnet. Everything has to be documented. Norway and Switzerland know this, and it is a pain. Serial numbers, descriptions, etc, etc.

I have been cracking-on about the return of needing a carnet ever since the referendum result was in. In this parish and in print in my columns in magazines.

And without the documentation you will be hit with import duty on return to the UK.

There will be other things crawling out of the woodwork. Income tax? The Rolling Stones used to (still?) specify they were met with a tax expert at the border!

There - not a mention of the "B" word.

(Oh and if you buy a guitar abroad, be sure to insist on a well used guitar case). Take an empty one with you?

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 01:08 PM

The other delightful thing about carnets? If your ferry or plane or whatever arrives at the customs post after the carnet office (at which you must check in, usually behind a long line of articulated lorries) is closed, Tough Cheese. You spend the night and wait, or else pay a fortune. Voice of experience (and a near-miss) on that one, trying to drive a concert harp though various European borders. Getting our car through the Berlin Corridor in (then) East Germany with all their police checks was easier. I'm not kidding.

And make sure you get the Right Kind of carnet - there are (or were in those days) a bunch of them. And they are HELL to fill out. Makes VAT forms look like kindergarten scribbling.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 01:11 PM

I think the same kind of thing also applies to any merchandise you want to sell, if memory serves. Not sure, but make sure you find out before hauling out your CDs & T-shirts.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 01:24 PM

Links don't always last, so try to include some context in case it disappears later. Jack's article is titled:

UK bands now have to pay import duty and VAT on ALL merchandise before even entering Europe to tour

. . . No Deal Brexit is set to be a nightmare for everyone, including bands. This is all laid out in government documentation. . . . Good news, you even have to apply for a VAT number and apply for an EORI number which means, according to the Government's own website, “you may have increased costs and delays”. This will literally destroy any opportunity for UK artists and bands, mainly independent ones, to tour the EU. How many artists will be able to afford to pay their entire VAT and duty on merch before even selling it? On top of the costs already suffered by bands to tour the EU.

I've extracted just a bit to show the concerns for working musicians.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 01:27 PM

It's not just merch, it's instruments too. Or was.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 01:35 PM

In the bad old days, you couldn't just SAY it wasn't for sale - you had to prove it with all the prior paperwork.

Only fun memory is, riding one time between Italy and Somewhere in a band bus with all our gear, and they raised violent objection to the bouzoukis. We couldn't understand what their problem exactly was, and the cross-language barrier didn't help. Finally the light dawned, when one of them mimed holding a machine gun and said "NO BOOM-BOOM-BOOM" over and over until we twigged.

He thought we meant bazookas.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 01:40 PM

There is already much discussion of the future prospects on cross/Irish sea booking of artists over here in Ireland
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 01:46 PM

This would presumably mean that you get your CDs and t-shirts manufactured locally when you arrive. And try to find where you can hire a top-range well-maintained set of Highland pipes in Poland.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 01:50 PM

Many of the jazz bands I see have international membership, a quartet can contain four different nationalities. I also know someone who played in a pan-European baroque ensemble based in UK now going to be based in Europe. Will Brexit make it more difficult for such productive cross-border collaborations?
RtS

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 02:06 PM

A Baroque group has extra issues because of CITES. You won't be able to take a recorder made of rosewood or a flute with ivory rings across the border, at least not without very detailed provenance documentation.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 02:28 PM

Not just Baroque groups. Violins, guitars, and many other instruments may contain protected species. My concertina contains rosewood and mahogany. There are supposedly relaxations for musical instruments but I'm still not clear what paperwork might be required or how much it might cost.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 02:37 PM

Yikes, that's right. I have an ivory-ringed treble recorder that I bought direct from von Huene back in my Boston days, which is way, way too good for me. It wasn't one of his own, but he had it for sale in his workshop; and when (on the advice of one of the wind students who had come with me and could really play) I chose it, VH said, "Wait a moment and I'll make it better for you." He then disappeared into the nether regions of his workshop, and all we could hear was this unnervingly ferocious banging. But it arrived back to me in one healthy piece, and I have it still.

I got it registered at Heathrow once, back in the days of yore, but God knows where THAT paperwork is. Fortunately, I can't play it well enough to need to worry. Got some mahogany harps tho...

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 02:37 PM

Until and unless we have some sort of deal with the EU, we will probably need a visa.

Visas for third party nationals travelling to the Schengen Area

Unless something is done it will become too difficult or too expensive for many musicians in all genres to travel between the UK and EU. Only those who have already made it, and can command the fees to justify the administration costs, will be able to travel.

Will amateur musicians travelling with instruments to festivals, summer schools and workshops also need all this paperwork?

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 02:40 PM

I was chatting to an instrument dealer the other day who told me he was planning to travel to Ireland shortly to get rid of a load of rosewood concertinas before import duty, VAT and CITES paperwork made it uneconomic.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 02:43 PM

Ireland's not part of Schengen, for whatever comfort that may (or may not) offer.

Jim...? Any thoughts?

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 04:32 PM

I assume that amateurs will have exactly the same customs and VAT issues as pros.

I didn't count, but I must have had more than 5000 pounds' worth of instruments with me when I went to Weimar this month for the Yiddish Summer klezmer events. No idea how I could do my usual thing at next year's if Brexit happens. I specialize in unusual kit you can't easily substitute, borrow or hire.

The reason we went on an Interrail trip round Europe in March was also because of Brexit, then due on March 31st. We had a cello in the house that belonged to Marion's son in Germany, who wanted to play it again. Bought by a very old relative 60 years ago for 5 pounds, it's now worth 5000. A lot of import duty. So we chaperoned it by rail from Scotland and went on to other places. Wouldn't have thought of doing ot otherwise.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: GUEST,JoeG
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 05:40 PM

So all looking good then ;-)

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 07:59 PM

I imagine the same rules applied to Alex Campbell and his contemporaries in the pre-EU membership days - They seemed not only to have survived it but to have thrived on it.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 31 Aug 19 - 01:45 AM

The thing they thrived on was the music, not the obstacles put in its way. I remember the carnet horror stories they all used to tell.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: GUEST,Akenaton
Date: 31 Aug 19 - 07:16 AM

If I remember correctly you couldn't keep the Scottish folkies out of East Germany and Scandinavia pre EU.
The Laggan I think had a No1 in East Germany, or so Arthur Johnstone told me one boozy night in Argyll.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 31 Aug 19 - 08:49 AM

You only ever pay VAT once, that from experience is in the country where you have the CD's, Merchandise, etc., made. VAT is the EU wide tax that basically pays for the EU.

After leaving the EU the UK will be free to do one of three things with VAT.

1. They can leave it exactly as it currently stands and use the revenue raised to pay all former existing subsidies formerly received from the EU and pocket the surplus [The UK is the EU's second largest net-contributor after Germany] to squander as they see fit.

2. They can reduce the level of VAT wholesale or on whatever selected items they see fit thus reducing the price of many things but still taking in enough to pay former subsidies.

3. They could abolish it altogether, then of course bands, musicians, performers would have to render unto Caeser the things that are Caeser's. This of course would only be on what they decided to take with them and they would not have paid any form of VAT on the items in the UK so they would have been cheaper to make in the first place.

As with all things in life it is usually a case of "swings and round-abouts".

Don't know that many bands now that do actually make money lugging vast numbers of CDs and merchandise about. For the music, streaming and downloading seems to be more the norm.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 31 Aug 19 - 10:16 AM

I suppose quite a few touring bands will be affected by VAT, a shameful tax which both discriminates against the poorest in society and is an impediment to individuals and groups expanding and prospering.
Perhaps when we leave the EU, VAT can lowered or abolished.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Aug 19 - 12:00 PM

We can't really blame the EU for indirect taxes. Until we joined the EU we had purchase tax, which VAT replaced. Almost the first thing Thatcher's first government did in 1979 was to raise the standard rate of VAT from 8% to 15%, which they didn't have to do. Currently, the minimum standard rate that EU countries must maintain is 15%. The UK's rate is 20%. The extra is our doing alone. Can't see brexit triggering a reduction somehow.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 31 Aug 19 - 12:29 PM

"Time for bed",   said Zebedee.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 31 Aug 19 - 12:34 PM

VAT plus tariffs charged on goods coming into the EU from outside are what pays for the EU - so yes you can blame this indirect tax on the EU - it needs it to survive. As previously stated AFTER the UK leaves it can:

1. Keep it as is and nobody feels any different but the Government take in more revenue.

2. Reduce it just to cover present subsidy levels and to lower some prices.

3. Abolish it and lower the price of almost everything.

As the UK is currently still a member of the EU then no-one in the EU has the right to charge any UK band, musician or performer any additional VAT for bringing in CDs or merchandise to another EU country [Switzerland I know you do but then Switzerland is NOT an EU Country].

Again as previously stated as someone who has produced CDs you pay VAT plus royalties where applicable on every CD you make when you buy your first and subsequent production runs - you then charge a sum for each individual CD and you do not add VAT on top of that sum.

To address something in the post above - incoming Governments sometimes have to raise taxes due to the lamentable financial state they often find themselves inheriting - I cannot think of a single democratically elected government that raises taxes just for the hell of it.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Aug 19 - 03:07 PM

I gave you the facts. No more from me. I'm respecting Jack's request to not politicise this thread.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Mr Red
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 02:57 AM

Perhaps when we leave the EU, VAT can lowered or abolished.

Nothing certain except death and taxes. The answer will be NO! time will tell, I can wait. Import duty threshold was reduced to £15 - a stealth tax to pay for it. And IME they slap VAT on top of that. Outside of the EU there are no rules - look at the constitutional arguements now! Music is _low on their agenda.

Copyright will be affected by Brexit, mostly through litigation, rather than any immediate change in the law.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 03:13 AM

"Copyright will be affected by Brexit, mostly through litigation"
That shouldn't affect folk song which is in public domain then :-)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 03:40 AM

I have no idea whether it was the same in Britain, but in Ireland there was a European financial input into the arts which we were able to take advantage of on two occasions in order to make available our Traveller collection
I think the publication of Tom Munnely's Essays, 'The Singing Will Never Be Done', may have benefitted from that assistance.

This is how it works, according to Irish Arts Council literature

"Creative Europe Programme 2013 sees the launch of the new Creative Europe Programme, a continued commitment by the European Union to fund the creative and cultural sectors. Creative Europe will last for seven years from 2014 - 2020. The Creative Europe Programme will seek to help artists develop international careers and to foster international networks to create professional opportunities"

Without assistance such as this the Traditional Music Sene would not have been as healthy as it is
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 03:46 AM

FOLLOW-UP
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jim McLean
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 03:57 AM

Nigel Denver and I travelled extensively throughout Europe and Scandinavia during the early 1960s, crisscrossing borders without any hassle with a guitar and bagpipes.The only time we had trouble was in Paris in 1961 when I was surrounded and pushed up against the wall by gendarmes who thought my (folded) bagpipes was a rifle.

Another point .. the rules don't apply between Nothern Ireland and the Republic so could one travel to Europe via the Irish Republic after entering through NI? Or is this affected by Shengen?

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 04:46 AM

"Don't know that many bands now that do actually make money lugging vast numbers of CDs and merchandise about. For the music, streaming and downloading seems to be more the norm."

That's certainly not my experience. Younger audiences may prefer to download, but older people who make up a lot of folk audiences still prefer a physical product. Streaming a track on Spotify pays about $0.005, so unless you're a big name attracting millions of streams it takes a while to amount to anything. Of course digital is an important part of marketing, but it takes several months to achieve the same as a sale of a single CD. And until 3D printers become more widespread, it's difficult to download a Tshirt.

VAT is complicated as there are different rules for physical products and digital. Because we're below the VAT threshold we don't charge VAT on CD sales, but VAT is charged on digital sales - fortunately the digital vendors handle this.

For us, the cost and bureaucracy of having to make payments up-front would now discourage us from taking CDs abroad, instead we would encourage audiences to download or purchase online

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 04:56 AM

Crossing border has always depended very much on the whim of the customs officers. Some will wave you through, others will want to go through everything. I guess a solo musician travelling light will probably find it easier than a band with a van full of gear.

The other point to remember is that all these experiences of pre-EU travel were before CITES came into effect. Customs officers may now be interested in what your instruments are made from as well as what you intend to do with them. The proposed relaxations for musical instruments do not include Brazilian rosewood, which was widely used in guitars, so you may still the need the appropriate certificate.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 06:33 AM

I presume VAT applies to hotel stays in the same way it does to any other services? (I've been most aware of this in Turkey, where the rate is prominently posted at reception - "KDV Dahildir"). But within the EU you can presumably claim it back if it's a business-related expense as part of your tour. If you come from a country that isn't part of the EU VAT system, your accommodation will cost 25% more. And conversely - for an EU-based act, touring the UK gets more expensive.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 07:00 AM

"the cost and bureaucracy of having to make payments up-front would now discourage us from taking CDs abroad"

Never, ever, have I, or any others that I know ever had to pay anything "up front" to take CDs abroad - Tours and festivals North America, Europe, Australia.

Never, ever had any problem with instruments either, in fact the only time I have ever seen a guitar case opened was once on our return to the UK from the USA where all the Customs Officer wanted to check on was that the instrument inside the case was not a brand new one being brought into the country. Once he saw the obvious signs of usage he simply closed the case and we carried on through.

CITES is a multi-national Treaty and neither the UK's Brexit or EU Regulation has, or will have any impact on it. Being the older international treaty it has precedence over anything the UK or Brussel's can introduce that could be seen as altering or amending CITES.

CITES coverage

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 08:51 AM

"Never, ever, have I, or any others that I know ever had to pay anything "up front" to take CDs abroad - Tours and festivals North America, Europe, Australia."

That's what is now being reported may happen, for example:

https://louderthanwar.com/post-brexit-uk-bands-may-pay-vat-import-duty-merch-leaving-country/

And here's a link to the Government guidance

"CITES is a multi-national Treaty and neither the UK's Brexit or EU Regulation has, or will have any impact on it. "

What will change is that up to now all movements within the EU have been regarded as internal and you don't require documentation simply to carry your instruments around, any more than you do within the UK. After Brexit, travelling to the EU will become a cross-border movement, and if your instruments contain protected species then the appropriate paperwork will be required.

Is there really a risk that your instrument will be confiscated? I don't know, but this article suggests that they have been in the past, although the exact numbers are unclear.

Instruments seized under CITES

There are proposals to relax the rules for musical instruments, but that won't include Brazilian rosewood. I for one won't be taking the chance.

Eventually when we get a deal with the EU (as we must) then maybe all this will be resolved. I wouldn't care to guess how long that might take.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 08:57 AM

"within the EU you can presumably claim (VAT) back if it's a business-related expense as part of your tour"

Won't that apply only if the band or musician is VAT-registered?   A very large number won't be.

So far as I am aware an ordinary consumer can't recover VAT on services abroad. This is different from purchases of goods, which can be bought VAT-free on the basis that you pay import duty and VAT on bringing it into your own country. However VAT is immensely complicated so I may be wrong.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 10:01 AM

You don't have to be a very big operation to be VAT registered, and it's advantageous if you are. The point where it becomes compulsory is in the small-business range.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 04:32 PM

So far as I am aware an ordinary consumer can't recover VAT on services abroad. This is different from purchases of goods, which can be bought VAT-free on the basis that you pay import duty and VAT on bringing it into your own country. However VAT is immensely complicated so I may be wrong.
Not quite. Goods can only be purchased VAT free (or the VAT subsequently reclaimed) by foreign travellers who will be taking the goods out of the EU (of course this will also apply to UK purchasers once we leave the EU as we will then be viewed as 'foreign travellers')

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 01:37 AM

" up to now all movements within the EU have been regarded as internal"

CITES was signed by national governments, AFAIK the EU is NOT a signatory [The EU is not a Government - although sometimes it thinks and acts as though it is]. Therefore if what you state is correct then those EU nations are in flagrant violation of the terms of this treaty [The UK certainly isn't according to the link you provided] .

The opening post contained a link which included the following statement - "UK-bands-NOW-have-to-pay-import-duty-and-VAT-on-ALL-merchandise-before-even-entering-Europe-to-tour" - Ehmmmm No they don't as far as European countries in the EU and EEA are concerned. The articles linked to to support this contention all say that this is what MAY happen in the future in which no deal is ever negotiated [UK could leave the EU on 31.10.2019 with no deal, but that does not mean that some form of a trade deal could not be negotiated at a later date].


CDs and T-Shirts appear to be neither "licenced or controlled" items as defined or detailed by the lists provided by the UK Government.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 02:28 AM

Observer I note your comments but the reality is that as a general rule, no permits or certificates are needed for keeping or moving a specimen of a species listed in CITES Annex B, C or D inside the EU. See Section 2.2 of the
EU Guidance Presumably someone with greater knowledge than you and I has decided this is legal.

The UK government advises that"You will not be able to freely move or trade species listed in Annex A – D between the UK and the EU."

UK government guidance CITES after Brexit

Furthermore, you will only be able to move protected species through a designated entry point, which does not include Dover and Eurotunnel.

Yes, all this only applies if there is no new deal to cover these issues (a point I made earlier), and surely we must have a deal with the EU at some point. But it is unclear when this will be agreed or what it will say. In the meantime we are about to leave the EU and, unless things change dramatically in the next few weeks, without a deal. The likelihood is that, at least in the short term and possibly for an indeterminate period, these constraints will apply.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 02:46 AM

I take it that Section 2.2 applies only after compliance with what is stated in Section 2.1:

Internal trade in the EU includes trade within one EU Member State and trade between individual EU Member States. Due to the establishment of the EU single market, there are no border controls inside the EU and generally goods can be moved and traded freely inside the EU. However, this applies to specimens of species listed in Annex B, C or D only if they have been acquired and/or imported into the EU in accordance with the provisions of CITES, the EU Wildlife Trade Regulations and other legislation that may be applicable in an individual Member State. Specimens of species listed in Annex A are generally not allowed to be used for commercial purposes and their movement inside the EU is also subject to regulations

To those who are still awake - what is basically being talked about here by the EU is live specimens.

So Howard, on that clearly stipulated condition, specifically outlined by the EU Guidance I will stand by what I have said in my previous posts.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 03:58 AM

Here's the MU guidance:

MU CITES update

MU travelling with an instrument

There have always been some relaxations for movement for personal use, including performance. What regulations apply depend on what protected species are used. In some cases a Musical Instrument Certificate is required - an "instrument passport". While we are in the EU an MIC is not required, this will change when we leave. We don't know whether the EU will be as rigorous as the US, but it would be unwise to assume they won't be concerned about it.

The regulations are about to be changed to make it even easier to move instruments, but this does not include Brazilian rosewood which is found in many guitars and other instruments.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 07:29 AM

The British government doesn't think it means live specimens. Here's one of their advice pages:

https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/articles/souvenirs-and-endangered-species

That means the leopardskin apron the bass drummer in your regimental pipe band wears. Saying the leopard is dead doesn't let the Army off.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 12:38 PM

Jack the link to EU Guidance given by Howard:

Permits, Certificates and Notifications

Documents needed for wildlife trade into, from and inside the EU
   
1. WILDLIFE TRADE INTO AND FROM THE EU
   1.1 Overview
   1.2 What types of documents for what purpose?
   1.3 Which document do I need?
   1.4 Where should I apply for an EU permit or certificate?
   1.5 What are the procedures and conditions for the issuance of an EU permit or certificate?
   1.6 General derogations from import and export conditions

2. INTERNAL TRADE IN THE EU
   2.1 Overview
   2.2 General provisions for internal trade of specimens of species listed in EU Regulations
   2.3 Regarding commercial use of specimens of Annex A listed species (Art. 8.1 of Council Regulation (EC) No 338/97)
   2.4 Exemptions and the use of EU internal trade certificates
   2.5 “Fast track” certificates – the use of pre-issued certificates
   2.6 Circuses and travelling exhibitions
   2.7 General exemptions and derogations for internal trade

DID deal mainly with animals and "live" animals at that. But I suppose that you would have actually have to have read it to glean that point.

Leopardskin aprons worn by Regimental Band Bass Drummers - Perhaps you should look at the age of them Jack. It is not as though orders are put in for hundreds each year. If the skin has already been cleared and is of an age that predates a certain point there is no problem with those items.

Most widely internationally travelled military band in the UK would be the Band of the Royal Marines - Bass Drummer in that wears a Tiger skin apron - no problems encountered so far.

Black Bearskins as used by Regiments of Foot Guards and the Royal Scots Dragoon Guards all come from cull killed Black Bears in Canada, that cull having been authorised by the Canadian Government in accordance with advice given each year by their Wildlife Department. They would not be subject to prohibition or restriction of movement. Not one single Black Bear gets shot to provide a Guardsman with a hat - those are a by-product, the Bear would be shot in any case.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 06:51 PM

Observer, the fact is that the international movement of instruments containing listed species of wood and other materials requires the appropriate paperwork. There are plenty of resources on the internet to support this - besides the turgid official government information, guitar, woodwind and violin journals have all carried articles, as have instrument retailers and dealers, and the MU. It is a well-known issue, in particular for travellers into the US, EU, Australia and Japan as they have the strictest enforcement measures.

Movement within the EU itself does not require this, because it is a single customs area. When we leave the EU the UK will no longer be part of that customs area, and we will need the documentation if our instruments contain the listed species. However if you believe you have found a loophole in CITES to avoid this then good luck to you.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Mr Red
Date: 05 Sep 19 - 02:57 AM

You only ever pay VAT once, that from experience is in the country where you have the CD's,

Only while this country are in the EU &/or have a deal. As we have found recently, governments are not bound by reason, logic, honesty or moral constraints. Only expediency in garnering revenue to 1) pay for Brexshit 2) pay for the tax brides in hopes of success at the next election/by.

Import duty was lowered from £35 to £15 very quietly. Thus constituting a stealth tax. But in a "no deal" Brexshit would help pay for the mess. Until people wised-up, and by then they would buy from UK sources and import duty would have been paid anyway. Win Win, but still underhand.

FWIW Chinese operators on E-Bay often have UK registered addresses and charge what they charge but declare cost appropriate to their loss in the event of disaster en-route direct from China. eg Shoes that retail at £24 (UK address) were declared as $6 for customs (from China). (I bought as fun Shoes until I spoke to a non-folkie wearing non-red ones).

As has been stated, in the case of music/CD there is always the internet and MP3, which in the case of modern cars is the only way to play the songs anyway. But the philosophy is "grab the money while it is fresh in their hand/mind". And physical items are the only way, there.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 05 Sep 19 - 04:09 AM

Mr Red if you are going to quote from my post's please do fully and accurately. Full quote is as follows:

"You only ever pay VAT once, that from experience is in the country where you have the CD's, Merchandise, etc., made."

VAT is the EU wide tax that basically pays for the EU. After leaving the EU the British Government have the following choices relating to VAT:

1. We retain it exactly as it is - no-one sees, or experiences any difference. The Government raises the money to continue paying every subsidy previously paid by the EU in addition the British Government retains what used to be our net-contribution to the EU's coffers [The UK after Germany is the largest net-contributor to the EU and has been for decades]

2. We retain VAT but reduce it, or we remove it on certain items to the extent that we can continue to pay every subsidy previously paid by the EU but there is now no additional money raised.

3. The UK can abolish VAT altogether and find other means (taxes) to subsidise whatever we want - Still less expensive than us paying into the EU.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 05 Sep 19 - 08:33 AM

VAT goes to the Treasury. It is not specifically to pay for the EU, except to the extent that it contributes to the government's general pot of money that the UK's contributions are paid out of. VAT is harmonised across the EU, but individual governments have some degree of latitude in setting the applicable rates, within the legal framework set out by the EU (and which, at the risk of getting political, the UK had a part in agreeing). It is true that after Brexit the UK government will be entirely free to set whatever rates it wishes, how that will work out remains to be seen.

What this seems to mean in practice is that post-Brexit we will now be able to purchase stuff VAT-free from businesses in the EU, including musical instruments and equipment. Great! However we will have to pay UK VAT (or whatever replaces it) together with import duty when it comes into the UK. What these rates are will depend on what deal we eventually agree with the EU, until then (as I understand it) they will be at WTO rates. Whether this works out more or less expensive for the purchaser remains to be seen, it will certainly add to the paperwork and delay in receiving your order. It will make it less attractive to buy from companies in the EU, and with less competition UK prices may then rise. It will significantly affect trading of second-hand instruments, especially by private individuals who do not currently have to charge VAT.

There's an interesting article here:

Impact Assessment: Brexit and the musical instrument market

Musicians taking CDs and other merchandise into the EU for sale will be subject to the requirements I linked to before to pay HMRC up front.

Digital sales must now charge VAT at the applicable rate in the purchaser's country, and unlike physical products there is no VAT threshold so this applies to all sales no matter how small. There is a system known as VATMOSS which was being set up to administer all this, so it would be handled through HMRC rather than having to deal with separate EU countries, but I'm not sure if this will continue after Brexit. Many musicians sell downloads through portals such as CD Baby and Bandcamp, which handle the VAT for them so the impact may be fairly small.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 07:56 AM

Elizabeth Ford is an American musicologist who lives in Scotland and researches Scottish music. She was just told, on the same day, that her book was ready for publication and that the Home Office refused her permission to stay in the UK.

Elizabeth Ford on Twitter

I've read her work and met her. Scotland would be a better place with her still in it.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Mr Red
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 04:00 PM

After leaving the EU the British Government have the following choices relating to VAT:

Governments are not disposed to follow your predictions (or whatever you call them). They will do what they do and, as is being demonstrated, will do regardless of the rightness be it legal, moral, or even rational. Their only barrier is other politicians who may or may not be less reprehensible. Anyone who has favourites will always wish to paint them in a better light. But that light can be switched off by history, and so it will. I can wait.

Here's you caveat expressed by government sources - viz a Motorway electronic overhead sign:
 FREIGHT TO EU     
 PAPERWORK MAY
 CHANGE 1 NOV     

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 04:48 PM

Unfortunately, taxes have a nasty habit of being perpetuated long after their sell by date. If I remember correctly, UK Income Tax was originally introduced to pay for the Napoleonic Wars.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 08:11 PM

How remarkably observant of you Mr. Red [RE: Your Motorway sign] - What does this sign presage according to your understanding of it? I take it that you do fully understand the use and the meaning of the word "MAY", or do you like most posting to this forum expect this to happen after the sky has fallen, the first-born of every household in the land has died and after we have suffered plagues of frogs and locusts [Admittedly the time of year may be a bit out for the latter]

Guest Ray, you are 100% correct that was the purpose that Income Tax was originally introduced and let's face it, the Napoleonic Wars were damned expensive for Great Britain and after they were finished, after we had paid to keep various coalitions in the fight against Napoleon I imagine that the UK found that it was in debt and that that debt had to be paid off - Fortunately we already had a tax scheme in operation to do just that - Any idea of what the rate was and who actually paid it? Information is all held by the Government.

None of that alters a jot what I have previously stated.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Mr Red
Date: 10 Sep 19 - 04:34 AM

I find it remarkable that some posters kick-off on their own misunderstanding. I won't patronise by quoting the dictionary definition of caveat. But then it didn't take long for thread drift to encroach & to personolise.

Motorway signs are there to be read by all diligent drivers, unless you deall Cymraeg gwleidyddol. Personally bron dim. But for the message to be displayed like that, it must have come from deep within the corridors of power. Perhaps they are waking-up to the enormity of the chosen task ahead. The Devil is always in the detail.

And don't expect them not to resurrect new and improved PEL.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 11 Sep 19 - 05:15 AM

I'm not sure why Observer (who I guess supports Brexit) is so defensive. All this is an inevitable and even an intended outcome of leaving the EU. If a deal is done, now or in the future, other measures may be put in place to make these issues easier, possibly but not necessarily by replicating the current arrangements. Until then our dealings with the EU will be at arms length, which will inevitably mean more complicated and almost certainly more expensive. It's what the country voted for, apparently.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 11 Sep 19 - 05:27 AM

The Home Office going through a truly Kafkaesque routine to fuck up an American musician's life:

Weaseling out of the Good Friday Agreement

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 11 Sep 19 - 10:47 AM

Very interesting case Jack - but nothing whatsoever to do with Brexit - just an example of what happens when you encounter some complete and utter "jobsworth", arsehole of a [not so] civil servant. The Home Office will, undoubtedly lose the appeal case, The Home Office just going through the motions to waste taxpayer's money and tick all the boxes, it makes their lawyers money.

The situation as mentioned in the article linked to is covered in the GFA which in turn has got nothing to do with anyone, other than the Governments of the UK, Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.

It most certainly is NOT the concern of the EU, the next case to be raised will be by Lord Trimble who views the changes the EU are insisting on in Northern Ireland actually break the GFA - again makes money for lawyers.

Here, by the way, is how matters relating to the border in Ireland were viewed by Michel Barnier in a "fly-on-the-wall" TV Documentary commissioned by Guy Verhofstadt, broadcast earlier this year by the BBC. The documentary was titled "Brexit: Behind Closed Doors" the two sets of comments come from the time Theresa May was about to put her deal before the House of Commons:

Michel Barnier [October 2018]:

"Our deliberate tactic must be to "isolate" any discussion of the Ireland question to make sure there is no settlement so as to keep the UK in negotiations for the next two to three years."

Verhofstadt's PR Team [14th November 2018]:

First PR rep: "We got rid of them! - We kicked them out! It took us two years but we got rid of them on our terms and on our conditions."

Second PR rep: "We finally turned them into a colony. That was our plan from the first moment."

Anybody wants to view it the above exchanges are shown in Part Two of the Two Part Documentary, which must be classed as being one of the most idiotic things ever released as far anyone wishing the UK to remain in the EU goes. It does however give an accurate picture of how the British are viewed by those at the heart of the EU.

One great, but popular, misconception regarding EU red lines. Within the EU there is no such thing as freedom of movement - what there is - is free movement of labour. This means that you should be able to move wherever you want to within the EU provided that you have a job there waiting for you when you arrive. No problem with visiting musicians and bands who are normally on tour who are going to play at festivals or booked gigs and who can clearly demonstrate that to anyone wishing to know.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 11 Sep 19 - 11:21 AM

Import duty was lowered from £35 to £15 very quietly. Thus constituting a stealth tax. But in a "no deal" Brexshit would help pay for the mess. Until people wised-up, and by then they would buy from UK sources and import duty would have been paid anyway. Win Win, but still underhand.
No, 'import duty' was not lowered. I think what you refer to was the lowering of the threshold for paying VAT on imports. That threshold is currently £15. The threshold for paying 'Customs Duty' (also known as 'import duty') is £135. For goods below that value no Customs duty is charged. There is also Excise duty which is charged on tobacco and alcohol at levels below that £135 threshold.
Tax and Customs for goods sent from abroad: HMRC

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 11 Sep 19 - 05:52 PM

Observer, the free movement (of labour) as you quite rightly say allows people to move around within the EU provided they have a job to go to. However, as cannot have failed to escape your notice, following Brexit we will not be in the EU. British musicians entering the EU will be subject to whatever immigration and customs controls are put in place, and the same will apply to EU musicians coming here. At present we are being told this will require visas, carnets and musical instrument certificates.

The purpose of the Single Market is to remove such restrictions. The vote to leave the EU was a vote to restore them between the EU and the UK. Of course we were promised that we would get a new agreement which would avoid this and which would give us all the benefits with none of the obligations, but that was always a naive hope. And it is to be expected that the EU will have tried to shaft us - their aim is protect the EU's interests, not those of the UK. They were never going to give us an easy ride, and why should they?

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 12 Sep 19 - 03:17 AM

"British musicians entering the EU will be subject to whatever immigration and customs controls are put in place, and the same will apply to EU musicians coming here. At present we are being told this will require visas, carnets and musical instrument certificates."

ONCE we are OUT of the EU - We are not yet OUT of the EU - Now go back and read the opening post of this thread and the title of the link provided:

UK bands NOW have to pay import duty and VAT on ALL merchandise before even entering Europe to tour

Ever tried getting into Canada, USA or Australia? Lots of hoops to jump through, but loads of artists, bands and performers do it - the rewards being well worth the effort. So when we leave the EU you just add the countries of Europe to that list. Beatles toured and worked in Europe long before we joined the EEC - where did they make their money though? Wasn't Europe, from 1964 to 1970, the Beatles had the top-selling US single one week out of every six weeks, and the top-selling US album one week out of every three weeks.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 12 Sep 19 - 04:34 AM

Sloppy writing by Rawmusictv but the "NOW" that you emphasise comes from a quote from advice that will only apply AFTER Brexit.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 12 Sep 19 - 04:40 AM

This discussion is about the possible impact of Brexit on music and musicians. Of course we are talking about the future, because Brexit is still in the future. But when it happens, which is likely to be soon, changes will happen. Those changes aren't accidental or unintended, we are leaving the EU precisely in order to be able to impose controls on trade and visitors to the UK, but of course it works in the other direction too. This can only be avoided if an agreement is reached which will mitigate these effects. At present that doesn't seem imminent, but who knows?

Yes, some bands do manage to tour in the US and other countries, but many others find the costs and bureaucracy too much. I can speak from experience - my band was offered a tour in the US, but the costs and practical difficulties compared with the financial rewards ruled it out for us. For example, to get a working visa for the US you have to attend an interview in person at the US Embassy in London, and have a letter of sponsorship from the promoter in the US (in fairness, the UK makes it just as difficult for visiting musicians). Whereas when we had a gig in Paris last year it was no different from a gig in the UK, we just loaded the van and set off.

Plenty of bands toured in Europe before we joined, and they all faced delays and hassle over the paperwork. No one is suggesting that it won't be possible to tour after Brexit, just that it will become more difficult and more expensive, and in some cases the figures won't stack up to make it worthwhile.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Rain Dog
Date: 12 Sep 19 - 07:23 AM

They had a short piece on BBC Radio 4 last night about Brexit & Music

Front Row

How will Brexit impact Classical Music? John is joined by the Association of British Orchestras director Mark Pemberton, opera impresario Wasfi Kani from Grange Park Opera and Claire Fox, The Brexit Party MEP who is on the Culture Committee of the European Parliament. They discuss whether classical musicians will be particularly affected by Brexit, deal or no deal.

Front Row - Brexit & Music

It starts at approx. 14.45

Not that things are much clearer after the discussion. It does illustrate how difficult it is for people to plan ahead when, after 3 years, no one is sure what you should be planning for.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 12 Sep 19 - 09:39 AM

"Not that things are much clearer after the discussion. It does illustrate how difficult it is for people to plan ahead when, after 3 years, no one is sure what you should be planning for."

Totally agree about clarity, typical BBC interview with regard to anything to do with Brexit. One of the things said regarded calls for advice to HMRC - the reason they could not give any back last February is not so surprising, as under May and Hammond, the UK was never going to leave the EU at all and Hammond in particular had deliberately prevented work being done to prepare for us leaving on a no-deal basis. They still tour abroad outwith the EU and even although they said it was a pain - they still do it, and they will continue to do it. I got the distinct impression that they were rather over-egging the pudding when stating their case, particularly about the refundable "bond" to be paid and held by HMRC for the value of the instruments. The comment about double charges for our musicians playing in France for national insurance comes as no surprise - How typical of them. With "friends" like that who needs enemies.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 15 Sep 19 - 01:47 PM

Nothing new in this, but well put and the voice of experience.

FB post from David Knopfler

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 15 Sep 19 - 03:26 PM

Worth quoting in full [ignore the inexplicable blank space after "not making a living" and keep scrolling down]

David Knopfler:

"I will say this one last bloody time to have it on record for the next person who clearly doesn’t care to understand why UK musicians are sensibly 98% in favour of Remain and not Brexit and will continue to be so until Hell freezes over.

If I am offered work as a musician, it makes very little difference to me in practical terms whether it’s a one hour plane ride to anywhere in the UK or anywhere in the EU. I jump on a plane and go to work. The local agent has some paperwork to take care of but the only difference to me personally is usually the eight seconds it takes me to show my fabulous, much beloved, and massively appreciated, blue zone European passport if passing into another EU country that these populist, reactionary, moronic, shitheads want to deprive me of. Even that little effort isn’t necessary at all within the Schengen Zone.

If however I want to play in the US it’s a completely different ball of wax. I have to prove to the US authorities that I am an “exceptional” talent, or whatever worrisome phrase it is they use, fill in lengthy forms online, attend an interview at the US Embassy in London at 7.30am to plead my case along with my band - ie an overnight stay at a London Hotel, handing over a shedload of serous money for a visa for myself and another shedload for whoever I require to accompany me - and then do it all again for the next trip where any change in lineup btw would probably scupper the enterprise. To say that this is a royal pain in the arse doesn’t begin to describe it.

Oh, and for bands with gear, and worse, merchandise, the difficulties compound. Imagine having to pay customs and excise on your CDs at every border and boundary as you arrive at them? Or have to create authorised expensive carnets of your equipment that can then be challenged at every border by customs and immigration officials. It becomes effectively impossible to tour Europe on an economic time scale and to carry CDs in your van. If playing in the US were as easy as Europe I’d have been doing regular shows there every few months for the last twenty years.

I stopped flying to the US by flying into Toronto to get to Upstate NY because there was usually a two hour queue to get across the border and a one hour delay being interviewed by US immigration officials at the border. It was less work to fly through Boston and get it all done at the airport with a 30 min queue. To imagine these kinds of difficulties and costs translated to working in Europe would mean, for 80% of gigging musicians, the difference between making a living and not making a living.

This is also where our tax authorities pick up huge wodges of cash as invisible earnings from all of our businesses that currently enjoy freedom of movement. Hundreds and hundreds of plane loads of us going in and out of the other 27 countries hourly... all being bollocked by Faragist, xenophobic, little Englander, reactionary, dogma. These revenues will be drastically hit if and when, as these insensitive, unapologetic, pro-government, sphincters intend, it all comes to a crashing end on October 31st 2019.

It was an idiotic gamble David Cameron made to nobble his ERG supporters and he lost (!) and as a result we are getting the short shitty stick and I’m mad as hell about that and will absolutely remain mad as hell until this assault on my human rights and my economic well being ends, and leaving the European Union is trashed. It can’t come a day too soon for me so please don’t dish out any of the slack litany of cobblers leave voters have been taught to parrot about this. I hope this is clear enough and is the last time I need to spell this lunacy out. All that before even considering yellow hammer or driving permits and whatever other needless fuckeries this will throw up just because Johnson wanted Cameron’s job, the utterly shameless, lying knob."

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 16 Sep 19 - 04:51 AM

Very simple message for David Knopfler.

"Ah Diddums, never mind pet, your probably better off stayin' at home."

Why this man's views should overturn a democratically arrived at decision God alone knows, nobody posting to this forum can come up with an argument to convince me otherwise. However no matter what the anti-Brexit crowd rant on about, the simple truth is that it is not Brexit that they are destroying - it's democracy in the UK along with faith and belief in our system of government.

David Knopfler is totally wrong about Cameron, the Conservative Party have rubbed along having the ERG in existence since 1993 - concerns over Maastricht brought it into existence [I have been anti-EU ever since then - the Leave campaign in 2015/16 did absolutely nothing to influence my opinion of the EU]. They accounted for roughly 6% of the Party - I think it was UKIP's success in the 2014 EU Parliamentary Elections that put Cameron's feet to the fire, just as it is now the Brexit Party applying pressure to Boris. There has not been one single Prime Minister, or Government, in this country that hasn't lied about and misrepresented the European Project to the people of the United Kingdom since the days of Harold Macmillan. The EU is a slow motion train wreck that the electorate of not one of it's net-contributor member states think will still be in existence in 20 years time.

Fact remains musicians, performers, bands, etc, etc, will still continue to tour. They will all try to get the USA gig and break into that market as that is where the money is.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 16 Sep 19 - 06:18 AM

They won't continue if it's untenable. And whether people seek to play in the USA or not is utterly beside the point.

Anyone who has ever toured the Continent doing performing gigs in the pre-EU days, and actually had to use those carnet forms, will know that Knopfler is not exaggerating. There's no "Diddums" about it. So easy to dismiss the issue from the comfortable sidelines.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: GUEST,Richard Robinson
Date: 16 Sep 19 - 08:48 AM

"Saying the leopard is dead doesn't let the Army off"

But it beats trying to wear a live one.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 16 Sep 19 - 09:07 AM

Thanks Richard best laugh today.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 16 Sep 19 - 09:30 AM

I'm not going to get into a debate about the wisdom or otherwise of the Brexit decision because we don't want this thread to degenerate into another heated and ultimately pointless discussion about politics. This is about the practical effects on music and musicians.

When "this man"'s livelihood and that of thousands of others is put in jeopardy then he's entitled to complain about it. The difficulties of touring in the USA are well-known, and mean that for many it is not feasible. The USA is perhaps particularly difficult, but most countries (including the UK) have visa and tax requirements which apart from the fees may require professional help to obtain. When even a well-known artist faces such difficulties, how can the rest of us expect to manage? Most folk acts don't command very large fees to begin with, and for many it will become uneconomical.

There is no reason at present to believe that performing in the EU post-Brexit will be any different. On the contrary, all the guidance from the UK government and the Musicians Union suggests otherwise.

Let's not get into whether the country will be better or worse off after Brexit, after all opinions are deeply divided and sincerely held on both sides. Not all of the consequences of Brexit can be foreseen. This one can, because the systems are already in place and already apply to artists from outside the EU, and after Brexit they will apply to musicians from the UK as well. So far as I can make out, each EU country sets its own visa requirements. Freedom of movement within the EU applies only to EU citizens.

Of course, a lot of lesser-known musicians are able to get away with entering on a tourist visa. This may be fairly easy if you can get away with carrying just a guitar or fiddle, but bringing in a van full of gear and merchandise is likely to attract attention. If you get caught, then apart from being deported future visits (whether to perform or as a tourist) may be put in jeopardy. For professionals who work in Europe, and for part-time musicians with "proper jobs" (a lot of folk musicians) who have to travel for work purposes it could put their careers in jeopardy.

I say again, none of this is accidental or an unintended consequence. More control over working and trading with the EU was precisely the reason people wanted Brexit. Did you really think this would only work one-way and that similar controls would not apply in reverse?

So far this discussion has been mainly about the problems UK musicians will face if they want to perform in the EU. Let's not forget the UK already has its own requirements for rest-of-world musicians visiting the UK. In future these rules will apply to those coming from the EU. This is not just paperwork and it cannot be assumed a visa will be granted, for example artists due to perform at WOMAD have had visas refused. We can expect to see fewer visits from overseas musicians and less opportunity for international collaboration, in all genres. This can only impoverish us culturally, regardless of the economic consequences.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: GUEST,JoeG
Date: 16 Sep 19 - 06:34 PM

Very well said Howard - on your latter point I gather at least one performer has had to cancel their appearance at the superb Musicport Festival due to visa issues. I can only see it getting worse. Of course many enthusiasts of Brexit have no interest in the culture of other countries but many thousands of us do have and also recognise the benefits of engagement with different cultures from Europe and beyond.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 17 Sep 19 - 03:27 AM

Old article from the Guardian showing that nothing has changed in months:

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2019/apr/03/brexit-effects-on-british-pop-classical-music

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 17 Sep 19 - 04:16 AM

"Of course many enthusiasts of Brexit have no interest in the culture of other countries"

That's an easy stereotype and it may be true of some, but certainly not of others. I would expect anyone sufficiently interested in music to come onto this site to have at least some interest, even if they do support Brexit.

I can immediately think of two folk bands, Blowzabella and Topette, who play regularly on both sides of the Channel and who are made up of both British and French musicians, and presumably will face difficulties whether they are performing in the UK or in Europe. The last time I spoke to a member of Blowzabella they still had no clear idea how it was going to work out - admittedly that was a few months ago but I have seen nothing since then to suggest that special arrangements to ease these difficulties are close to being put in place.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 17 Sep 19 - 04:31 AM

Yes my comment was a generality but I was speaking more broadly of the population rather than those on here. I think the very fact that many Brexiteers are isolationist (and a proportion are racists) suggests that they are unlikely to be interested in the music of other countries and cultures

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 17 Sep 19 - 05:28 AM

As one of the main aims of Brexit is to enable the UK to trade freely with the rest of the world free of interference from the EU [A trading block that is markedly "protectionist"] it seems rather odd for those supporting Brexit to be labelled "isolationists" - Just a historical note but at no time at all in the entire history of the British Isles has Britain EVER been "isolationist" - On the other hand Europe under the rule of various conquerors has prohibited trade with Britain.

I dare say that Brexit when it happens, for happen it most certainly will, will come and go and be very much like the non-event that was "the millennium bug". Nothing stays the same - especially not the EU - In 1975 I was asked to vote for or against our continued membership in a trading partnership and on that occasion I voted for it. Neither myself or any other member of the electorate of this country was asked about that membership being transferred to any fiscal, or federalist political union [Maastricht]. The original version of the Treaty of Lisbon was rejected via referendums in three other EU member States, so the EU took it away and tweaked it and brought it back in through the back-door in a much reduce form. So if things do change then musicians, performers, etc, if they want to make a living had best change with them.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 17 Sep 19 - 05:59 AM

Guardian story on Elizabeth Ford

And no it wasn't the EU's initiative to exile her. The idea that the UK will be better connected to the outside world after Brexit is mendacious bollocks.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 17 Sep 19 - 06:31 AM

Young maker of Irish-style flutes leaving England for Ireland.

Damien Thompson

He doesn't mention Brexit apart from a hint that "the time has come" - you bet it has.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 17 Sep 19 - 06:40 AM

The millennium bug turned out to be largely a non-event because of a great deal of work by programmers to check software and rewrite it where necessary.

The millennium bug -was it a myth?

I know people in IT who confirm this from their own experience.

The Brexit equivalent would be to leave with a deal. I've no idea whether or not that will happen, but if we don't then we can expect all the issues raised in this thread to take effect. I certainly hope, and indeed expect, that in time the UK will be able to agree new arrangements with the EU and that these will include arrangements which will allow musicians to tour with the minimum of additional bureaucracy and cost. However no one can say how long this might take, and I also expect that the needs of musicians and other performers will be a low priority compared with maintaining supplies of food and essential medicines.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 17 Sep 19 - 07:12 AM

I certainly hope, and indeed expect, that in time the UK will be able to agree new arrangements with the EU and that these will include arrangements which will allow musicians to tour with the minimum of additional bureaucracy and cost.

Cases like Elizabeth Ford's, and the problems UK musicians have in touring the US, show how little the UK is able or willing to do without the EU's assistance and coercion. There will be no mitigation of the catastrophe.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 17 Sep 19 - 08:15 AM

The Elizabeth Ford case (and others like her) is an entirely home-grown problem caused by the Home Office's 'hostile environment'. It isn't a Brexit issue, except that EU citizens will now be vulnerable to similar persecution.

The US has always been difficult to enter, even as a tourist. I first visited in 1976, during it's Bicentennial Year, which was perhaps the first time it had marketed itself as a tourist destination. The message appeared not to have reached the immigration officials, who didn't seem capable of imagining that someone might come to America and nevertheless want to go home afterwards. However, from what I hear entering the UK isn't much better, especially if you come from Africa or Asia.

Brexit was sold to us on the basis that we would be able to negotiate a new and positive relationship with the EU. I very much hope that will still be possible, although we have tested their patience and forbearance severely, and that we might be able to put arrangements in place which will allow us to travel for work or pleasure with the minimum of interference. Perhaps when all this settles down the politicians on both sides of the argument will no longer feel they need to take such polarised positions and will be able to make the compromises necessary to reach a deal.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 17 Sep 19 - 10:31 AM

"The idea that the UK will be better connected to the outside world after Brexit is mendacious bollocks" hardly in the spirit of this thread BUT - a couple of irrefutable observations with regard to the UK's connections with the outside world:

1. Commonwealth of Nations, second largest international body after the United Nations - the UK is the founding member of this organisation which links the UK to a market of 2,418,964,000 people in 53 countries.

2. For the last nine, yes that is right NINE, years the UK has traded more with the rest of the world than it has within the EU. That trend is ongoing and increasing. There is little that we have "traditionally" bought from the EU that we cannot find from elsewhere in the world.

3. The UK's deficit trading pattern with the EU is such that if we remain in it the UK gets poorer and poorer and Germany gets richer each year. With full implementation of the Treaty of Lisbon, our annual rebate disappears, as does our veto, our contributions also increase and we have to adopt the Euro as our currency. So far 31 companies have been enticed out of the UK by the EU with EU loans and grants that the UK contributes to [We are one of the five members of the EU that back the ECB]. They have moved to countries in Eastern Europe or to countries outside the EU altogether - So in the EU the UK pays to ship UK jobs abroad. If we leave then maybe they'll have to relocate German and French companies instead.

As far as the case of Elizabeth Ford goes, she was granted Leave To Remain by the Home Office, if that was issued in error due to a Home Office mistake then her case against them is watertight and I guess the Guardian and the person who wrote the article knows that full well. Had this been a UK citizen in the USA, his, or her, feet would not have touched the ground. They are much harsher on visa infringements than the UK are [Same thing applies with regard to Canada and Australia if memory serves].

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 17 Sep 19 - 08:40 PM

Mr Jones, what will happen will happen. Things will change irrevocably whether we remain or leave. I personally think that upholding democracy is a damned sight more important than a hell of a lot of things that have been discussed here regarding whether or not it is easier or more difficult for musicians to sell CDs and go on tour - If the musicians have the talent and the following they will be fine no matter what happens. If they don't then they never were going to make it anyhow - that is the reality. Always was always will be.

What has happened in the UK is that what is important now is not Brexit, leave or remain, Parliament and a group of Remain MPs have set themselves against the clearly expressed wishes of the majority of those who voted to leave the EU on the 23rd June 2016. In 2017, 86% of those MPs were specifically elected on a platform that promised the electorate that they would respect the Referendum result and that they would implement Brexit - 75% of them have singularly failed to do so - in fact they have put 1005 of their efforts into overturning the referendum decision. They clearly do not want "No-Deal" they clearly want "No Brexit" but haven't the guts to admit it. Well the LibDems have but they will get nowhere with it, as always.

I do not think for one second that most who post on this forum have any idea of how angry and how completely disillusioned the British public are with their politicians at the moment. No wonder none of those currently sitting in Parliament want a General Election to be called at the moment - most of them would be out on their arses in a trice and they know it.

---

The original post:

"We have other Brexit threads. Can we keep this one absolutely on topic for music related issues? - i.e. mods, can any general political posts be deleted immediately?

So if it doesn't involve music, please don't post it. Thank you - mod.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 19 Sep 19 - 06:47 AM

I can't recall if I've previously posted this link to this report by the Incorporated Society of Musicians. Apologies if I have, but it's worth reading and confirms in some detail that the concerns raised during this thread are not imaginary.

ISM updated report on Brexit May 2019

I realise that for some the benefits of Brexit outweigh any of the downsides. That in itself is a valid opinion to hold (although obviously not one I share), but please don't pretend that the downsides don't exist or don't matter, or that they won't have a real impact on people's lives and livelihoods.

Of course, this may all be avoided if a new deal can be done with the EU. But until then this will be the new reality.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 06:04 AM

From Huw Williams, on FB. Not much sign of those great deals we'll get once out of the EU, is there?

Yesterday I went to a government organised event called Get Ready For Brexit. Some of my musician colleagues asked me to report back so here is what I have learnt so far if you tour Europe as many of my colleagues do.

Here are the changes that will happen in a no deal situation. However check details yourself too if you can. I am not an expert so don’t just rely on this information but this is what I gleaned from the experts there.

You will need a work visa for each country. You can’t have one that covers the whole EU. So if you play a gig in France and then pop over to Germany and/or Spain you will need separate work visas for each country. The cost of the visa will depend on each country’s rules. As you know work visas can be quite expensive so check first before discussing fees.

You will need a carnet. That is an official form stamped before you go listing everything you are taking with you such as musical instruments, any equipment such as leads mics etc. They think this will cover the whole of the EU so just one needed. This will also cost money but no one was sure how much.

If you take CDs or other merchandise you will need to pay an import tax and VAT or that country’s equivalent of VAT. Cost will depend on each country. So there will be something to pay for each country you visit.

If you are supplying a service over the phone or by internet from this country this makes no difference. There will still be tariffs to pay. How this will work who knows. So if you are a UK based agent for example dealing with people in the EU over the phone or by internet you are supplying a service. So there will be tariffs to pay. It doesn’t matter that you are based in the UK.

Also many of the deals that have been made are between the EU and other countries through out the world. So if there is an EU deal for example between the EU and the USA or Australia the UK are no longer part of that deal so the UK have to start again. Hope that makes sense.

Also you will need a driving permit

I was advised to go to the government site dealing with Brexit so you can look up each individual country and examine what the rules would be.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 07:39 AM

The issue over internet trading had been almost sorted out. A few years ago the rules on VAT were changed so that it was charged in the customer's country rather than the vendor's. Whereas in the UK there is a minimum turnover threshold below which you don't pay VAT, that didn't apply to digital sales, so if someone in France bought a digital album from a musician in the UK, the seller would have to add French VAT. A complicated system was set up called VATMOSS so that this could all be dealt with through HMRC, rather than having to register and submit forms in 27 countries, which still wasn't great but was the least bad solution. How VATMOSS will work after Brexit is still probably unclear.

Fortunately so far as most musicians are concerned Bandcamp, CD Baby and the other digital platforms agreed to deal with all this so musicians don't have to handle masses of paperwork for the sake of a few quid in tax. However if you sell digital services directly eg online lessons then it may still be a problem, and one which I can only see getting worse unless something is resolved soon.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 11:41 AM

Musicians Union statement today

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 20 Oct 19 - 12:14 PM

Born in the UK in 1983 and the Home Office wants her gone...

Burni Thomas, jazz singer

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 04 Feb 20 - 08:53 AM

How many musicians earn more than £35,000?

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2016/mar/12/eu-workers-deported-earning-less-35000-employees-americans-australians

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Mr Red
Date: 05 Feb 20 - 04:57 AM

So to sum up.
If you are not a musician or traveling tradesman, Brexit will not be a problem. But will cost more.
If you do travel on business (or gig) it will cost additional: time, money and hair!

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 05 Feb 20 - 08:21 AM

If you are not a musician or traveling tradesman, Brexit will not be a problem.

Getting deported is a problem for anyone.

And anyone who isn't wealthy or a British citizen is fair game.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Mr Red
Date: 17 Feb 20 - 03:43 AM

Last Monday's Telegrope (Business pages 1) headline somewhat like:

"Gove admits no smart borders until 2025"

The message I take is that applying for things like export licences or carnets fit this scenario.
I would have expected some on-line form for carnets, sometime, so maybe it will all be piecemeal and not properly joined-up. Like a lot of Government.
When I needed a carnet in the 80's it was large Chambers of Commerce like Birmingham that did the service.

If a pro-Brexshit and pro-Tory paper like that has to publish such headlines you can't dismiss it as rumour. They are pro-business after all.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 18 Apr 20 - 11:01 AM

Given the closure of Brexit-related threads below the line, this one seems as good a place as any to draw attention to a move to save UK citizens (including, obviously, musicians) from losing our rights as EU citizens.

Support it if you wish. Sorry for bothering you if you don't.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 03 Nov 20 - 07:34 AM

https://www.nme.com/news/non-uk-musicians-will-need-visa-to-perform-in-the-country-from-2021-2612337">https://www.nme.com/news/non-uk-musicians-will-need-visa-to-perform-in-the-country-from-2021-2612337

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Andy M
Date: 03 Nov 20 - 01:06 PM

'Twas Brexit and the slithy Gove
did gyre and gimble in the wabe.
All mimsy was the Boris grove
and the Cumming, out grabe.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: GUEST,C21st Primitive
Date: 09 Nov 20 - 06:11 AM

Regardless of your views on Brexit, please support touring musicians by signing and sharing this petition:

https://www.change.org/p/government-parliament-let-touring-musicians-travel-support-musicians-working-in-the-eu-post-brexit-workingintheeu

---

Link repaired. ---mudelf

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Nov 20 - 09:25 AM

That was '100'

This might be the intended link:
Change.org

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Nov 20 - 09:28 AM

Having read that page, it was set up 2 years ago, and I can't see the UK being able to set up a passport guaranteeing access to EU markets for travelling musicians. Surely the petition should be addressed to the EU.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: GUEST,C21st Primitive
Date: 11 Nov 20 - 05:48 PM

This is an interesting Twitter thread on the subject by composer and broadcaster Howard Goodall.

Here’s a thread about how our lives are going to change re touring/working in the EU in 50 days time. Think of it as a kind of Bad News Advent calendar. Here goes 1/

First things first, you’ll need a passport with at least 6 months left on it. And you’ll need full travel/third party/health insurance, since if you get ill or have an accident every penny of your care will have to be paid for 2/

To work or do a gig you’re going to need a work visa, just like you do for the USA. But here’s the thing. Work permits & visas and the conditions attached are a matter not for the EU but for the member states themselves 3/

Yes, every member state controls who comes in and who doesn’t and what the rules will be for work and residency. It’s almost as if the Brexiters have been lying about this ALL ALONG. EU members CONTROL THEIR OWN BORDERS 4/

So you’ll need to get a work permit for every country you’re intending to work or gig in and the rules are often different, as are the rules on eg taxation of that work (eg Spain has a withholding tax, France does not) 5/

Yes, every member state in the EU CONTROLS ITS OWN TAXATION POLICY. We already had control of our borders, our currency & our tax as members of the EU: who knew? 6/

[Fun fact: in Germany, you need to verify a contract to work there, the verification needs a passport, and the new Brexity-Blue UK passports are incompatible with the ID system they use. Cheers, Brexit Govt] 7/

If you play an instrument, you’ll need an ‘ATA Carnet’ for it, to cross the EU border and any within the EU thereafter. This applies to all kinds of professional equipment you may need 8/

You get an ATA Carnet from the London Chamber of Commerce & Industry and they cost £351.60 each (or £562.80 for their express 2 hr service) and they last 12 months 9/

This is for each instrument/item. Pity the sax player who travels with sop, alto & tenor in her bag, that’s just short of a grand a time. Imagine the bill for an orchestra. Let’s hope those gigs are well paid! 10/

If for any reason the equipment/instrument you take with you is going to stay in the EU when you come home (ie you sell/rent it/give it away), you will need a C88(SAD) export declaration (just 8 parts, 12 pages to complete) from the UK Govt. 11/

Oh and if your (valuable, old) instrument contains materials derived from any endangered species, eg ivory from elephants, you will need either a FED0172 certificate or a CITES form too, from the APHA Centre in Bristol 12/

Remember, you need to get offered the gig in the first place, competing against our creative counterparts still in the EU, none of whom will cost their employer any of this additional expense or bureaucratic hassle 13/

Ditto dancers, actors, singers, designers, technicians etc 14/

Then there’s getting there. You’ll need your van/haulier to get an EU haulage licence, neither quick nor cheap nor easy (around 80,000 hauliers in the UK are currently after one of the 1,800 available) 15/

And crossing from a non-EU country to an EU one by lorry you’ll need to factor in a long-ish wait at the border. Pre-Brexit average at Dover-Calais was a few minutes per vehicle, Ukraine to Poland (non-EU to EU) anything from 1 to 32 hours. 16/

[BTW, these rules mostly don’t apply to going to the lovely Republic of Ireland, which we LOVE. Thank you, kindly Irish people ????] 17/

When you get across the channel, turn data roaming on your phone OFF, swiftly, or you’ll get stung for big bills now we’ve withdrawn from the EU’s roam-anywhere deal 18/

If you connect with your fans/followers/customers via social media using phone networks, these costs could be colossal, so wait till you find somewhere with free wi-fi! 19/

(If you want to take advantage of the EU’s cheap & easy roaming by cannily buying a burner in eg France with a French number, you’ll need a registered French address to do so fyi) 20/

Maybe you’ve heard about the possibility of an Artists’/Musicians’ Passport, advocated by creative industry unions like @WeAreTheMU, which will save all this bother/expense but as I write this is a dream not a reality. I doubt the words have even crossed Lord Frost’s lips. 21/

That’s because Frosty & his Brexit Overlords in Downing St are WAY more concerned about fishing, an industry over ONE HUNDRED TIMES smaller than the Creative sector. 22/

As far as can be gleaned from the documents published about the negotiations under way, none of the above issues will be resolved in the flimsy deal Trumpy Johnson will try to sell as a triumph. Maybe that’ll change in the remaining days left. Maybe. 23/

Final thought. Everything we do as creative artists - everything - is about removing the barriers between people. We do collaboration, reducing conflict, bringing people closer, unity, friendship, enjoyment & shared experience 24/

We’ll cope, somehow, of course, but forgive us for thinking that the putting up of all these new hurdles, fences & frontiers is pointless, retrogressive & counter-productive and that the swindlers who sold the empty, nationalist elixir are basically bad people. 25/ends

Howard Goodall Twitter Thread

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: GUEST,C21st Primitive
Date: 11 Nov 20 - 06:06 PM

Btw, before any Brexit supporters start in with the stirring speeches about the 'will of the people' or petulant 'diddums' type comnents in response to Howard Goodall's concerns, as has happened further up this thread: please don't. You got what you wanted, so enjoy it without further sticking the boot in. Touring musicians and others who are collatoral damage to your ideology have every right to point out, as strongly as they see fit, how this will impact on their ability to do their jobs and earn a living.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 12 Dec 20 - 06:32 AM

For anyone who travels to Europe to sell stuff, like musical instruments at festivals, this does not look like fun.

Permits and fines

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 26 Dec 20 - 05:43 PM

Steve Byrne just relayed a message on FB detailing what Johnson's "deal" means for musicians' visas.

It's as bad as the worst scenario anybody envisioned.

The end, for any UK musicians expecting to tour. And don't expect to see European musicians live again.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Dec 20 - 09:57 PM

From: Jack Campin
Date: 26 Dec 20 - 05:43
. . .
It's as bad as the worst scenario anybody envisioned.
. . .

Not really. You only have to look back a few days to the screed posted by "C21st Primative" to see that things have already moved on. But more will surely come to light.
If you play an instrument, you’ll need an ‘ATA Carnet’ for it, to cross the EU border and any within the EU thereafter. This applies to all kinds of professional equipment you may need
Why will you need a carnet if neither side will impose tariffs on goods being traded, and a zero quota agreement would mean no limit on the quantity of any type of goods that could be traded.

You get an ATA Carnet from the London Chamber of Commerce & Industry and they cost £351.60 each (or £562.80 for their express 2 hr service) and they last 12 months

This is for each instrument/item. Pity the sax player who travels with sop, alto & tenor in her bag, that’s just short of a grand a time. Imagine the bill for an orchestra. Let’s hope those gigs are well paid!
The sax player would only need multiple carnets (if they were even needed) if they were following the suggestions here. A carnet can cover multiple different items for a single fee: Gov.UK

This page at Gov.UK even seems to suggest that paying for a carnet is not necessary if you're willing to do a bit more of the paperwork yourself:
Get an ATA Carnet
You can use an ATA Carnet in around 70 countries.

Countries have their own rules about what goods you can bring in with an ATA Carnet. Check with the issuer in the country you’re exporting to.

If you cannot use an ATA Carnet (or do not want to pay the fee), use a Duplicate List to temporarily export your goods instead.

If for any reason the equipment/instrument you take with you is going to stay in the EU when you come home (ie you sell/rent it/give it away), you will need a C88(SAD) export declaration (just 8 parts, 12 pages to complete) from the UK Govt
Again, if there are zero tariffs, and no quotas, Why?

I would suggest that people wait until this has passed through Parliament, and all the ramifications have been looked at, before trying to spread panic based on individuals assessments which were made before a deal was agreed.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 27 Dec 20 - 09:26 AM

Independent story

That's only about visas. The rest of the bad news will doubtless follow shortly.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 05 Jan 21 - 04:46 AM

Try importing a set of guitar strings now.

https://bylinetimes.com/2021/01/04/uk-faces-trade-boycott-after-brexit-vat-change/

Effectively we are in a self-inflicted siege.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jan 21 - 05:11 AM

yes, it is bad news alright

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jan 21 - 05:15 AM

jack, as regards visa is not ireland an exception as the common travel arrangement between ireland and the uk takes precedence?

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 05 Jan 21 - 08:10 AM

When I see this discussed on non-music forums the general response is along the lines of "big stadium bands play outside the EU without problem so why will this be a problem?"

Without wider support it will be difficult to get traction on this in the corridors or power. Not only do we need to be lobbying but we also need to educate the public on how the wider music industry operates.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 05 Jan 21 - 10:12 AM

The government is claiming that the UK pushed for a more ambitious agreement with the EU on the temporary movement of business travellers, which would have covered musicians and others, but our proposals were rejected by the EU.

However it's not just visas. Whether or not a work visa is required, customs in both the UK and EU will still probably require a carnet listing all the equipment, and there will still be a need for Musical Instrument Certificates for CITES.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 09 Jan 21 - 04:16 PM

It now comes out that the Johnson regime was offered a solution and refused it.


https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/uk-visa-free-work-musicians-eu-brexit-b1784600.html

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Joe G
Date: 09 Jan 21 - 07:03 PM

I think that has surprised nobody! Appalling attitude to both our own musicians and to those of the EU who bring such superb music to the UK. Our own musicians will be the real losers in this though as those in the EU will be able to travel freely. The Tories have no interest in culture - especially when it comes to grassroots music

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 10 Jan 21 - 07:08 AM

More reactions to that story

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 10 Jan 21 - 07:37 AM

You can always rely on Boris -- to let you down.

He and his cronies must have much to gain from Brexit to have pursued it so determinedly, but there are no positives for most of us and very many negatives. These restrictions on musicians just add to the charge sheet.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 17 Jan 21 - 07:44 PM

Simon Rattle applies for German citizenship

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 18 Jan 21 - 06:38 AM

Petition about this:

https://hey-mp.uk/?c=music

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 19 Jan 21 - 02:47 AM

Scottish National Party takes this to Parliament: Pete Wishart

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: DaveRo
Date: 19 Jan 21 - 07:22 AM

This petition was started some weeks ago:
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/563294

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 23 Jan 21 - 04:25 PM

I can't find it again, but there was a very long and very articulate piece on FB from Fish (ex Marillion) pointing out how bad Brexit was even for a fairly successful musician like himself - and that it would finish the careers of smaller fry before they even got started.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 24 Jan 21 - 06:54 AM

(Apropos the petition)
Government responded

This response was given on 14 January 2021

"During our negotiations, we proposed measures to allow creative professionals to travel and perform in both the UK and EU, without needing work-permits. Unfortunately, the EU rejected these proposals."

That is an excellent example of being economical with the truth. It is perfectly true, and thoroughly misleading.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 24 Jan 21 - 08:54 AM

Fish's piece is at the top of his Facebook feed. Here it is. It's a long read, but stick with it. If an established artist like him can't see a future, what hope have the up-and-comiong bands got?

THE FIRST WHAMMY - this is a long post but please read through before commenting
How Brexit Has Destroyed UK Artists’ Ability To Tour In The EU – by Fish (21 st Jan, 2021)
I’m still reeling from the new regulations revealed by the UK Government just over 2 weeks ago regarding touring in the European Union post Brexit. I’ve been trying to make sense of it
all from all the sometimes contradictory and often vague information available on various websites that are constantly being updated and working out how this affects my own business and career. It’s quite frankly confounding.
I’ve grown tired of hearing “So what did musicians do before we joined the EU then?”.#
In 1973 when the UK joined the EU I was 15 years old and the Global Music Industry revenues were around 5 billion US dollars. By the turn of the century they were around $25 billion and today worth around $21 billion with the UK music industry generating $7.5 billion. That is a figure that doesn’t even take in the vast independent network or all the ancillary workers and bolt on industries that contribute hugely these days to the International music business.
As an example, my album sales don’t even count as I’m not officially chart ‘registered’ and on unofficial figures I had a Top 10 album in the UK with over 10 000 physical mail order sales of my 11 th solo album, ‘Weltschmerz’ in the first week of release in October 2020. A purely independent release. A tree in the forest. And there are a lot of trees out there.
It’s a huge industry generating nearly 4 times more than the UK fishing industry which despite a loud lobbying voice has its own valid frustrations at this time as we deal with all this weight of bureaucracy now foisted upon us by Brexit.
To put things a bit in perspective ‘The Who’ between 1963 and 1973 played only around 55 shows in the current EU countries. I have 27 EU shows and 5 in Scandinavia rescheduled from last year going out across 43 days in the Autumn of this year. That is more than half of the 90 out of 180 days I am allowed to be in the EU under the new rules. If these shows had gone ahead as planned in 2020 I would have been booking further shows in the early part of this year, if the new regulations allowed. Taking into account any
EU festivals which are normally a 3-day venture across a performance, plus any promotion trips which would also have to be added to my tally, as well as personal visits to my German
family, and those 90 days in 180 fast disappear.
The visa/ permit situation has a major impact. From what I’ve discovered so far we now need permits for every country in the EU. In Holland for example the administration/ processing costs of a permit are around £250 per person not including the instigation and set up on our end. I carry a 10-person team; 6 musicians including myself, a back-line tech, a sound engineer, a lighting/projection tech and a production manager.
If the permits are for every individual country and of similar amounts then I have around £2500 in extra costs on permits alone for every EU country we perform in. This will rule out single shows in countries such as France and Belgium where I play medium club size gigs and put a lot of pressure on future shows in Spain and Italy where I normally have a brace of gigs of around 5-800 capacity. These shows are already squeaky as we work to minimum
guarantees that cover only costs from promoters and the visa/ permit charge represents nearly 50% of those guarantees. Some shows will quite simply become financially unfeasible
on potential permit costs alone.
Compared to many artists I operate with a very tight crew and I have to keep it lean to make the figures work and keep us on the road and earning a living for everyone concerned. I have learned to manage myself - thus saving 20% of my gross income, which can be used to finance touring - and have ‘assassinated’ as many middle men as possible to enable me to continue making music and perform shows. It’s a lot of work for someone who just wants
to be an artist but if I don’t take on these responsibilities myself I couldn’t make a living. And I am an established artist! I’ve just been handed a live grenade with the pin pulled out.
My heart goes out to musicians starting out in small clubs and at the beginning of their careers who have to find that money in advance of tours. Artists signed to major labels have a better chance but for independents it’s a killer.
Crew members and session musicians have an added hit from the newly limited time allowed in the EU. Most techs and session musicians make a living by touring with a variety of artists throughout the year and they will now be unable, or find it very difficult, to juggle schedules to adhere to the new rules on travel. In short UK based touring personnel will be hamstrung and UK artists might have to consider taking on EU based crew and musicians to
get around the restrictions – thus depriving their long-standing UK crew of being able to make a living.
We now have to have our passports stamped at every border crossing in order to officially document the time we spend in various countries as per the visas/ permits. At those crossings we must get a carnet stamped. This is a UK generated document that identifies and lists every piece of equipment carried out of the UK from guitars and amps to strings, drums and sticks and skins, keyboards etc. It is used to show that we take the equipment out
and cross every border with the same manifest and return to the UK with exactly the same contents. The carnet basically shows that we haven’t exported anything for sale to another country and haven’t imported anything out with the manifest. It has to be stamped going in and out of every country and miss a stamp and you walk into a nightmare of bureaucracy and potential heavy fines. (I’ve had to fly someone to Switzerland with supporting legal documents to have a carnet stamped that was missed as there was no one available at that time in the morning at the border as we were gig bound on a tight schedule)
At the border crossings the customs officers are totally within their rights to ask for an entire truck or trailer to be unloaded and examined to see if it matches the carnet documents. Protests on time constraints are a waste of energy and the tour-bus drivers just have to wait while the digital tachographs count down their drive time available. And the drivers’ operating and rest time in these potential circumstances has to be taken into consideration.
Being stopped for a couple of hours during the night at a border check could take a driver out of the legal time allowed at the wheel. In order to make sure we get to places we are supposed to be, the only solution now is to take on double drivers, who would normally only come on board for long hauls such as in Scandinavia or occasional big drives. Having 2 drivers full time on an entire tour just keeps on adding to the costs with not only their wages but hotel rooms and catering. The risks of losing shows because a driver is out of hours aren’t worth taking.
Yes, carnets existed before Brexit but they were only needed up till now in Switzerland and Norway. It’s now across every European country and every border crossing where they will
have to be stamped for the first time since 1973; 48 years ago, when amplifiers only had valves and ‘digital’ was a word in Science Fiction books. Legal drive time didn’t exist in 1973.
We pay tax in all the countries we play in Europe. For example in Germany it’s about 19% on the gross fee received from the promoter and unless you are represented by a German
based company who can reclaim some costs such as tour buses at around £1400 a day, hotels for any day off at over £1200 a night for the team, and various other production costs which include a contribution to crew wages, the tax is taken from the top.
When you pay those taxes you receive a credit note from the respective tax authority and that is provided to HMRC to put against your UK taxes. It’s called a reciprocal tax
agreement. I paid over £25k in withholding tax in the EU in 2018 on one tour after allowances for costs because I had a German agent.
Up till now I have not had an answer as to whether that still applies. Do we still get that allowance or will only a percentage of it apply if at all? At the moment my tax advisors don’t know. I’m supposed to be on tour in 8 months and don’t even know if it’s actually financially feasible. The contracts were signed in late 2019 and don’t take into consideration any post Brexit financial implications as no one knew what they were until 2 weeks ago.
We will now have to deal with the respective ‘national insurances’ in every country on top of the income tax. That applies to everyone in the band and crew and requires more paperwork and applications.
We will now also have to register for VAT in every EU country if we want to sell merchandise on the road and claim back VAT from costs. All taxes have to be paid in full before any merch leaves the UK and declarations could have to be made at every national border. If we are not registered then it’s near impossible to reclaim back the respective national VAT. As an example the German nightliner tour bus on the next alleged tour has around £13 000
VAT we now become liable for. This means more accountancy bills, more middlemen, more bureaucracy.
Like most other artists, I need merchandise sales on tour to supplement my income and allow us to play shows in areas where the promoter’s guarantee from ticket sales falls short of the costs required to perform there. As an independent artist a large amount of my album sales are on the road at the merchandise stall. Streaming changed the ball game and as a result, physical album sales in traditional record stores have collapsed compared to when I started in the music business 40 years ago, so playing live has become the principal source of income for many musicians
and bands. This comes through gig fees and direct-to-customer album and merchandise sales.
And I am a recognised artist with a loyal fanbase and playing decent size venues. I’ve managed through trial and error over time to find a model that works. I’m not in a new band making its first forays into Europe taking the big jump and betting on a chance to break into what is still the third biggest music market in the World, just a few miles on a ferry across the Channel. How are they supposed to find visa fees especially if they are an independent outfit? How do they front costs for that valuable merch that could be their only wages on a gig? The wages that pay their rent and the rehearsal rooms and fuel in the tank? How does the next young Iron Maiden, Simple Minds, The Cure or dare I say Marillion break
into the EU market now? From where is the UK government going to replace those potential future tax revenues from successful bands? Do they care? It certainly doesn’t appear so,
especially for the non-corporate bands.
These are just some of the razor wire hurdles I’ve come across so far since the new Brexit rules were published just a couple of weeks ago. Prior to that I’ve been discussing probabilities with fellow professionals, tour and production managers, accountants, and
advisors for well over 18 months trying to discover how this was all going to affect us – but the government left it so late, none of us have been able to prepare. Tours are booked over a year in advance and there is a lot of detailed planning involved. I’m used to that. And still no one seems to be any clearer on what is happening.
Some have accused the live music industry of not facing reality after the Brexit vote was determined by the accumulative vote across the UK. That is most definitely not true. We have been trying to read the runes and the smoke for a very long time and being in an industry that has to continually adjust to outside factors on a sometimes-daily basis while on the road we are accustomed to extraneous demands. Taking a double-barrelled shotgun to
our feet was not anywhere in the equation.
I’m not an accountant, never wanted to be. I wanted to be a creative artist and performer who could ply my trade and earn a living across borders, and especially in Europe, our closest neighbours and as I said the third biggest music market in the world next to the USA and Japan. It appears that the only sector benefitting from all these new regulations are accountants and advisors, and all those costs will percolate through to album and concert ticket prices.
And all of this during a pandemic that has crippled the music industry and put thousands out of work for an indefinite time.
I always look for silver linings with regards to my own situation and the only thing I can grasp on to is that my own postponed tour gives me preparation time to take on these seemingly constantly changing regulations and find a way forward. Some may say visa/permit costs, tax changes etc are negligible and part of the ‘cost’ of this current mess. For an arena level band, that may be so. It’s mostly an accountancy issue and they will usually have a wider
organisation who can focus on paperwork, but for others at my level and below it’s the difference between having a tour and a career in the music business or not.
And now? Where am I?
A 32 date European and Scandinavian tour looming in September with rehearsals necessary in August; an increasingly raging virus, nationwide vaccinations still a long way off, no
insurance for anything Covid related, promoters suggesting renegotiations of contracts for potential social distancing (impossible and refused), vastly increased merchandise
commission of around 20% of the gross sales (plus VAT) expected as venues and corporate entities involved try to recover losses and all of the above previously mentioned.
Is it going to happen? I wouldn’t buy tickets and incur fees that are non-returnable until I knew for certain the tour was happening. I certainly can’t hold up my hand and say I will be on tour in September or at any point this year.
And now, take another step back on this and look from the other side. I am on tour, potentially unvaccinated. Our tour merchandiser faces the public every night. She contracts the virus and we have maybe 10 days before she shows symptoms, and we are all together on a bus every day. Meanwhile in 10 days we could be in 7 cities intermingling with house crews, journalists, promoters, members of the general public etc. One band, one bus - one
potential travelling super-spreading Covid generator.
The tour is scheduled to start in just over 8 months, and we are still in lockdown here for perhaps another month and beyond. We should be looking at applying for visas/ permits by the beginning of summer latest to ensure we are regulatory compliable? And that means I will need to pay out £15k for work permits/visas we might not even need and in my opinion shouldn’t even be required in the first place?
The ‘bandwagon’ was already stalled by the pandemic and now bureaucracy has slashed the tyres and thrown sand in the engine while laying a minefield on the road with no maps to trust.
All the info I’ve related comes from current valid and credible sources. It’s not ‘fake news’ or ‘Remainer bullshit’. This is what I have discovered so far and what is being revealed on a day-to-day basis - on government and official websites which are constantly updated - still remains vague and doesn’t address specific questions we genuinely need answers to. It’s all real and at the moment it’s all that we know now.
I genuinely despair at the current state of the music industry and the dreams that are being broken on these rocks. I’m 63 this year and immensely grateful for what the music industry and the fans of my music have given me over the last 40 years. I just can’t imagine what it’s like for a young artist in these present times. I planned to retire from live music in 2023 and have just lost 2 years on a road I seriously don’t know if I will ever revisit.
We, the music business, and industry of the UK are currently in a perilous state. After all we have given to the world over the last 50 years and more; the revenue and cultural recognition that has been provided to this country through the musicians and technicians
and every ancillary member of the live music communities with their writing, creations, and performances. We deserve better than this from our elected government. We need a rethink,
and we need it sooner rather than later as our future is in jeopardy
Fish

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 25 Jan 21 - 05:50 AM

Thomann and VAT

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 27 Jan 21 - 10:01 AM

And can Brexit even manage to fuck up mediaeval music? You bet. From Elizabeth Eva Leach at DIAMM (the Digital Image Archive of Mediæval Music) at Oxford, on Twitter:

"So, to get the @diammpub equipment across the border to the EU now, we need to have a cash float of just over £22k. DIAMM does not have this kind of ready money, so the UK govt has made a flagship digitization project that's been running for 2 decades suddenly unworkable."

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 14 Feb 21 - 06:50 PM

Things I would like to order shortly from small firms abroad:

Oud strings from Germany
Ebony pegs from Germany
Ocarinas from Italy
Software download from Greece
Books and book/CD sets from Turkey

Anybody had any luck with that sort of purchase lately?

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 15 Feb 21 - 06:18 AM

Not spares for musical instruments, but in the last week or so I have received some data cables from Germany and a book from Sweden.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 04 Mar 21 - 07:34 AM

From Peter Shepheard, Springthyme Records:

This is the result of our Brexit 'Free Trade’ deal.

On a recent Springthyme Records package of CDs sold from Scotland by post to Germany the customer was required to go to his local post office to pay 10.42€ customs duty (i.e. 19% VAT on goods value and shipment costs) plus 6€ processing fees.

Here is our correspondence:
On Sun, Feb 28, 2021 at 10:41:29PM +0000, Peter Shepheard wrote:
PS: I am shocked by this. I presume this is the result of the "easy free trade deal" that Boris Johnson promised us back at the time of the Brexit vote.

Customer: Well, trade isn't restricted, so it is probably considered to be free... But for every package from outside the EU with a value of more than 22€ I have to pay import sales tax for the value of the goods plus the cost of shipment. The import sales tax is the same amount as VAT, and I presume that the seller should not charge me VAT in his country too.

Also, I just read on Wikipedia that from 1 July 2021 the 22€ exemption limit will no longer apply to mail items from non-EU countries. So I will probably have to pay for every single CD I get from the UK.

The money isn't the problem for me but the bureaucracy, and having to go to the post office or the customs office for every single shipped CD will surely limit my eagerness to buy music from the UK. This does not bode well for updating my website with new content.

PS: Springthyme is no longer VAT registered so we cannot charge VAT - so I cannot see why you should be charged VAT.

Customer: I don't think our customs office knows of or cares about foreign VAT extemptions.

PS: Have you had to pay VAT on imports from UK in the past?
Customer: No because this was not an import as long as the UK was part of the EU. I did have to pay for shipments from e.g. the USA or Australia.

PS: So we now have the sort of ‘Free Trade” that we want - just like Australia, USA and other foreign countries. Brexit no more.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: GUEST,patriot (ireland)
Date: 07 Mar 21 - 05:18 AM

Anyone with any brains at all should have seen what Brexit actually meant when they voted for it!
I thought the English were an intelligent race until that vote- or maybe they like being ruled by the loonies in the ERG? Wales, NI and Scotland had more sense but seems they don't count?
It's hard on musicians BUT again, can't you see that all this gadding about the world has to be seriously curtailed anyway or does England intend to vote against climate change as well?

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jos
Date: 07 Mar 21 - 06:29 AM

"what Brexit actually meant when they voted for it!"

Rather a lot of us DIDN'T vote for it - for all the good it did us.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Mar 21 - 04:01 AM

48.11% for Remain

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 21 Mar 21 - 01:22 PM

Harriet Harman's proposal

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: GUEST,patriot
Date: 21 Mar 21 - 01:52 PM

She voted for it as well- maybe reluctantly, but.....

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 01 Apr 21 - 07:52 AM

Open letter to BoJo

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Rain Dog
Date: 05 Aug 21 - 04:00 AM

From The Guardian newspaper


UK musicians and performers will be able to tour in a number of European countries without the need for a visa or work permit, the government has announced.

Rules that came into force at the beginning of the year do not guarantee visa-free travel for musicians in the EU and have prompted fears that touring artists will incur large fees in many of the countries they visit.

However, the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (DCMS) said it had negotiated with 19 EU member state countries to allow British musicians and performers to conduct short tours visa-free.

These countries are: Austria, Belgium, the Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Hungary, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, Poland, Slovakia, Slovenia, and Sweden.

The government said talks were ongoing with remaining EU countries, including Spain, Portugal and Greece, to align their arrangements with the UK’s, which allows touring performers and support staff to visit for up to three months without a visa.

UK musicians to be able to tour visa-free in 19 EU countries

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Aug 21 - 04:20 AM

Oh, that's good to hear, Rain Dog. I wish they could make a similar agreement with the United States. Now's the time to do it - the Biden Administration would be open to it.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: GUEST,Jack Campin (on a library computer)
Date: 05 Aug 21 - 05:52 AM

Work permits are only a small part of it. Customs arrangements for instruments and merch? Visas when members of groups (including drivers and roadies) are from countries outside Europe?

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: GUEST,Jack Campin (on a library computer)
Date: 05 Aug 21 - 06:04 AM

The NME is much less impressed by the new deal:

NME story

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Rain Dog
Date: 05 Aug 21 - 11:20 AM

The Guardian has another article on the same matter.

Trade bodies and unions representing British musicians have expressed frustration at a government announcement on European work visas that they say changes nothing.

Musicians and performers continue to accuse the government of ignoring their plight by failing to negotiate any Brexit deal that would reinstate the previous visa-free working arrangements.

UK musicians hit out at announcement about visa-free EU touring

The devil is in the detail of course.


Paul W Fleming, the general secretary of the union Equity, called the announcement “an overdue but welcome first step”.

He said it was still waiting on a country-by-country breakdown of different work permit regimes as well as “proper definitions of short-term touring, and the implications on carnets and cabotage for small-scale productions”.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Rain Dog
Date: 06 Aug 21 - 01:48 PM

The BBC have an article on this subject.

'It just isn't sustainable' - Why touring in the EU is problematic for UK bands


Within the article they mention the following:

The road to Rouen: will bands be able to tour again?

Over the next few months, BBC News will be following tour managers as they try to plan their tour dates for 2021 and 2022, to learn more about the obstacles, bottlenecks and successes.

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Rain Dog
Date: 17 Nov 21 - 07:49 AM

From The Guardian


Spain scraps visa requirement for UK touring musicians

Music industry welcomes move by Spanish government as ‘hugely welcome’ and a ‘big victory’

The UK’s music industry has welcomed the decision by the Spanish government to scrap post-Brexit visa requirements for UK artists on short-term tours, but warned significant issues still remain that will make many tours “impossible”.

Spain’s announcement means UK musicians and their crew will no longer need visas for engagements of less than 90 days, a change in policy that came after months of lobbying from trade groups on both sides.
The organisation UK Music, which has described the visa requirements as “costly and bureaucratic barriers that threatened the industry’s talent pipeline”, described the move as a “big victory”.

Jamie Njoku-Goodwin, UK Music chief executive, said the decision was a first step in the right direction but added: “The lifting of visa restrictions by the Spanish government is a hugely welcome move,” he said. “However, it is important to remember that major issues still remain, particularly cabotage [the transport of goods or passengers between two places in the same country by a foreign operator], which makes many tours impossible.

“We will continue to press the case with the government here and with EU nations to remove all the costly and bureaucratic restrictions that remain when it comes to touring the EU.”

He added: “It is vital for our economy and exports that musicians and crew can tour freely, grow their fanbase and share the very best of British music across Europe and the rest of the world.”

Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Nov 21 - 08:00 AM

"It is vital for our economy and exports "..

..seems to have forgotten the bit about "Cultural Exchange and International Friendship Building"...???

Oh well.. Obviously not as vitally important as ££££$$$...???????