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BS: India: ethnic cleansing?

Steve Shaw 31 Aug 19 - 07:34 PM
bobad 31 Aug 19 - 10:22 PM
Stilly River Sage 31 Aug 19 - 11:04 PM
Joe Offer 01 Sep 19 - 12:53 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Sep 19 - 03:04 AM
Iains 01 Sep 19 - 04:15 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Sep 19 - 08:57 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Sep 19 - 08:59 AM
bobad 01 Sep 19 - 09:48 AM
Stilly River Sage 01 Sep 19 - 09:57 AM
Mossback 01 Sep 19 - 10:05 AM
keberoxu 01 Sep 19 - 10:35 AM
Steve Shaw 01 Sep 19 - 10:38 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Sep 19 - 10:50 AM
Iains 01 Sep 19 - 01:15 PM
Stilly River Sage 01 Sep 19 - 02:16 PM
Jim Carroll 01 Sep 19 - 02:38 PM
Iains 01 Sep 19 - 04:14 PM
Jim Carroll 01 Sep 19 - 04:19 PM
Iains 01 Sep 19 - 04:47 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 01 Sep 19 - 04:53 PM
Jim Carroll 01 Sep 19 - 05:00 PM
Jim Carroll 02 Sep 19 - 03:16 AM
Gibb Sahib 02 Sep 19 - 07:38 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Sep 19 - 10:26 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Sep 19 - 10:26 AM
Stilly River Sage 02 Sep 19 - 10:33 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Sep 19 - 11:13 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 02 Sep 19 - 12:53 PM
Stilly River Sage 02 Sep 19 - 05:32 PM
bobad 02 Sep 19 - 08:08 PM
Stilly River Sage 02 Sep 19 - 11:04 PM
Jim Carroll 03 Sep 19 - 02:18 AM
keberoxu 03 Sep 19 - 03:44 PM

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Subject: BS: India: ethnic cleansing?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Aug 19 - 07:34 PM

First, Kashmir, now Assam. So it seems that Hindus don't like Muslims. So they're making life bloody tough for them in these two regions, and we're talking about millions of people. In Assam, you may be put into a detention camp if you haven't got the "right paperwork", even though you've lived in India for thirty or forty years, and Bangladesh won't have you.

I don't know much about this but I don't like to see ordinary people threatened like this for no good reason. Next time I hear about India "being the world's biggest democracy," well I might just feel like throwing up.


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Subject: RE: BS: India: ethnic cleansing?
From: bobad
Date: 31 Aug 19 - 10:22 PM

It's no picnic for Hindus in Pakistan either.


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Subject: RE: BS: India: ethnic cleansing?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 31 Aug 19 - 11:04 PM

That's not the topic, though. Tu Quoque - "Whataboutism" - is not the way to enter this conversation.


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Subject: RE: BS: India: ethnic cleansing?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Sep 19 - 12:53 AM

I see all this and think back on Gandhi, and wonder how his vision came to this.
Isn't there anything in this world that can happen to fulfil the dreams of the dreamers? Does it all have to cumulate in disaster? I just don't know.
But I keep hoping.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: India: ethnic cleansing?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Sep 19 - 03:04 AM

It is, yes again, a case of race/cultural differences being used as stepping stones to power -
It's always been there to a degree but international instability has now made it the first weapon they reach for - Trump, Brexit - even the Irish Presidential election has seen it put into use over the last few years.
Never mind IT'S AN ILL WIND....
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: India: ethnic cleansing?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Sep 19 - 04:15 AM

A bit of history.
https://www.livemint.com/Sundayapp/clQnX60MIR2LhCitpMmMWO/Indias-refugee-saga-from-1947-to-2017.html

Why did Pakistan come into existance? Muslim and Hindu populations in India have a long history of not "integrating" as do populations speaking different languages and different ethnicities. Bangladesh, Burma and Sri Lanka have/had similar problems.
Sad but it is what it is.


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Subject: RE: BS: India: ethnic cleansing?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Sep 19 - 08:57 AM

As usual - far too simplistic
In my opinion, the creation of Pakistan had far more to do with Britain's chaotic departure from India than 'religious differences' which was part of the Empire's excuse for not giving it's seized nations independence '
I greaw up with the claim "they are not ready for self-rule" ringing in my ears
Below make far more sense to me - the legacy of "an Emipre on which the sun never set nor the blood ever dried"
Jim Carroll

Reasons for partition
India and Pakistan won independence in August 1947, following a nationalist struggle lasting nearly three decades. It set a vital precedent for the negotiated winding up of European empires elsewhere. Unfortunately, it was accompanied by the largest mass migration in human history of some 10 million. As many as one million civilians died in the accompanying riots and local-level fighting, particularly in the western region of Punjab which was cut in two by the border.
The agreement to divide colonial India into two separate states - one with a Muslim majority (Pakistan) and the other with a Hindu majority (India) is commonly seen as the outcome of conflict between the nations' elites. This explanation, however, renders the mass violence that accompanied partition difficult to explain.
If Pakistan were indeed created as a homeland for Muslims, it is hard to understand why far more were left behind in India than were incorporated into the new state of Pakistan - a state created in two halves, one in the east (formerly East Bengal, now Bangladesh) and the other 1,700 kilometres away on the western side of the subcontinent [see map].
It is possible that Mohammed Ali Jinnah, leader of the Muslim League, simply wished to use the demand for a separate state as a bargaining chip to win greater power for Muslims within a loosely federated India. Certainly, the idea of 'Pakistan' was not thought of until the late 1930s.
One explanation for the chaotic manner in which the two independent nations came into being is the hurried nature of the British withdrawal. This was announced soon after the victory of the Labour Party in the British general election of July 1945, amid the realisation that the British state, devastated by war, could not afford to hold on to its over-extended empire.


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Subject: RE: BS: India: ethnic cleansing?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Sep 19 - 08:59 AM

SHOULD HAVE INCLUDED THIS
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: India: ethnic cleansing?
From: bobad
Date: 01 Sep 19 - 09:48 AM

That's not the topic, though. Tu Quoque - "Whataboutism" - is not the way to enter this conversation.

I beg to differ. Often times the way one group is treated by another is payback or backlash against the way they have been treated by that group. That is very much one of the factors in play in this situation.

Thank you for your opinion anyway.


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Subject: RE: BS: India: ethnic cleansing?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 01 Sep 19 - 09:57 AM

I have a bet with myself about this thread. . .


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Subject: RE: BS: India: ethnic cleansing?
From: Mossback
Date: 01 Sep 19 - 10:05 AM

Well, as long as whataboutism is the flavor of the day:

"Often times the way one group is treated by another is payback or backlash against the way they have been treated by that group"

Rather like the way Israel has treated the Palestinians, eh?

Sorry, Stilly - couldn't help it.


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Subject: RE: BS: India: ethnic cleansing?
From: keberoxu
Date: 01 Sep 19 - 10:35 AM

India is the land which the Roma fled aeons ago.
Can you blame them?


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Subject: RE: BS: India: ethnic cleansing?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Sep 19 - 10:38 AM

Thanks to those who are providing historical context. This is a topic I admit to not knowing much about. I started the thread because I've been horrified by the seemingly-inhuman way in which India is treating mostly Muslims in Kashmir and now Assam. There seems to be something very concerted going on that looks like deliberate persecution of ethnic minorities by a soi-disant democracy. I get what you're saying, Bill, but as bobad is here it's best to agree not to be sidetracked.


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Subject: RE: BS: India: ethnic cleansing?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Sep 19 - 10:50 AM

"Sorry, Stilly - couldn't help it."
I rather think the secret might lie in not directly responding to the troll but rather, dealing with his occasional interjections indirectly Mossy
What is happening in Israel is certainly comparable to what is happening here and elsewhere, as I sought to point out in my first contribution
If a regime/government wishes to draw attention away from its own inadequacies it will seek out somebody else to blame
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: India: ethnic cleansing?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Sep 19 - 01:15 PM

The inhabitants of India have been at each other's throats for millenia


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_violence_in_India

The earliest occurrence is in the part myth, part historical Ashokavadana, dating from 5th century CE to 16th century CE. Some date the earliest finished form of the text back to 2nd century CE, although its oral origins may go back to 2nd century BCE (BCE before common era =PC BC)


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Subject: RE: BS: India: ethnic cleansing?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 01 Sep 19 - 02:16 PM

They got along better, or differently, before colonization by the British and then when the British left that Jewel in the Crown they sorted instead of leaving people lumped, creating critical masses of anger against others who they used to live relatively peacefully with.

Britain also drew stupid lines all over the Middle East.


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Subject: RE: BS: India: ethnic cleansing?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Sep 19 - 02:38 PM

"Britain also drew stupid lines all over the Middle East."
Inn three years time Ireland commemorate the promised "temporary" division of its country - a division that was deliberately engineered to create an aggressively sectarian state sympathetic to its former masters
The results - a century of sectarian conflict which will inevitably kick off once more if the present circus continues on its course
The lesson to be learned is if you want a healthy body-bag industry, draw a line through a country - go ask the Cypriots or Koreans or Palestinians.... or all the other partitioned countries if you have any doubt on this one
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: India: ethnic cleansing?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Sep 19 - 04:14 PM

Yugoslavia was partitioned to prevent further body bags!


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Subject: RE: BS: India: ethnic cleansing?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Sep 19 - 04:19 PM

Yugoslavia avoided body bags for over half a century, despite the conflicts that have historically existed
The massacres that took place there happened after it was "freed from Communism" and was partitioning
History books are terribly useful things when they are used for things other than making rooms look nice
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: India: ethnic cleansing?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Sep 19 - 04:47 PM

kinda depends on who wrote them! Some a little better than fairy tales.


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Subject: RE: BS: India: ethnic cleansing?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 01 Sep 19 - 04:53 PM

Trying to have different cultures living under the one state law will always cause conflict and, sadly, the borders and controls in south Asia were poorly done when greedy selfish British imperialism finally came to an end there. My poem from a visit to troubled Kashmir in 1988 - "High Houseboat".


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Subject: RE: BS: India: ethnic cleansing?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Sep 19 - 05:00 PM

Can't say I didn't try
"Fairy tales" - another onee for the list
"greedy selfish British imperialism"
Much neared the mark I think
Will read your poem later
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: India: ethnic cleansing?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 03:16 AM

Nice poem David - makes me wish I' never managed to get there
Even 'golf' didn't put me off
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: India: ethnic cleansing?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 07:38 AM

"India is the land which the Roma fled aeons ago."
Yes, due to Muslim colonizers and conversion-by-the-sword policies. But I don't see the relevance of 1000 years ago.

Steve Shaw, it's right-wing ethno-nationalism, and it's been going on for a very long time. Some Keywords: "Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh" "Hindutva" "2002 Gujarat riots."

If there's one book you'll find in book shops all over India it's _Mein Kampf_. It's really not too much of a stretch to compare people in government to the Nazis. And British Imperialism can't be used to excuse that any more than losing WWI can soften Germany's conduct in #2. It's that ethnonationalism totally jibes with ancient Indian institutions.

I don't get why Westerners romanticize Indians as warm and cuddly (which seems to be implied by being surprised how conservative and communalist that many Indians can be). Is it because hippies thought yoga and guru stuff and walking barefoot was groovy? Peace, man! Or is it from the .1% of Indians that are geniuses, vibrant family people who emigrated to Western countries? They don't represent India's majority.

At best, there's a baseline for good and bad in balance. At worst, millennia of ranking people according to their birth, persistent belief in absurd religions, and an enormous rural population of people still fully entrenched in patriarchy and feudalism suggest that... yeah... you're gonna find some ugly Indians in the bunch somewhere. The last 5 years the government has been aligning to connect those people, like Trump's US administration has aligned some really nasty citizens.


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Subject: RE: BS: India: ethnic cleansing?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 10:26 AM

"I don't get why Westerners romanticize Indians as warm and cuddly "
I think the most of us regard them as human beings, and entitled to be treated as such
Neither east nor west can claim the high-ground on human rights, prejudice orr the persecution of the weak - Christianity has a track record of persecution, torture and mass murder up there with the worst
It seems that the final straw was the disclosure of the child rape - right up to fairly recently but it has taken a fight lasting to the 21sts century to ease the grip of the body responsible - here in Ireland they still control over 90% of the youngest minds though education
a sharp look into the mirror is a wise move before exercises in finger pointing
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: India: ethnic cleansing?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 10:26 AM

"I don't get why Westerners romanticize Indians as warm and cuddly "
I think the most of us regard them as human beings, and entitled to be treated as such
Neither east nor west can claim the high-ground on human rights, prejudice orr the persecution of the weak - Christianity has a track record of persecution, torture and mass murder up there with the worst
It seems that the final straw was the disclosure of the child rape - right up to fairly recently but it has taken a fight lasting to the 21sts century to ease the grip of the body responsible - here in Ireland they still control over 90% of the youngest minds though education
a sharp look into the mirror is a wise move before exercises in finger pointing
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: India: ethnic cleansing?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 10:33 AM

Trying to have different cultures living under the one state law will always cause conflict

On the contrary - when different groups live closely together they tend to understand and live better. They're neighbors, not strangers. It's the separation and critical mass of one group in an area that causes the "Other" to become problematic.


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Subject: RE: BS: India: ethnic cleansing?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 11:13 AM

Having lived in multicultural areas long before the term became popular (un to some) I think that's right Stilly
The problems arise when them in charge decide to use one against the other
The old Traveller street singer, Jimmy McBeath summed it up for me when he said; "You'll never hear me abusing Pakistanis; to the wobs (police) we are their 'white Pakis'
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: India: ethnic cleansing?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 12:53 PM

Firstly, re my poem, Jim, Kashmir is a beautiful as well as troubled part of the world.

Secondly, having studied anthropology, travelled and thought a lot about these matters, I remain sure that it is better and more peaceful if the law, the land, and the culture match/economic or CAPITALIST immigration and imperialism stop.

Not so long ago - in Australia and England, e.g. - the status quo involved encouraging assimilation NOT internal ethnic diversity; it's our world/our United Nations that should be multicultural and the solution is positive nationalism or "Nationalism without Conquest".


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Subject: RE: BS: India: ethnic cleansing?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 05:32 PM

CAPITALIST immigration and imperialism stop.

Code for being opposed to refugees fleeing and immigrants moving for a better wage.

That's part of the "Make America Great Again" mantra that is so obnoxious here in the US.


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Subject: RE: BS: India: ethnic cleansing?
From: bobad
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 08:08 PM

A 3-min video about Kashmir's history, the justification for India's revocation of Article 370 & the legal basis for the restoration of Pakistan-Occupied-Kashmir to Indian sovereignty.

Kashmir History and Article 370 in 3 minutes


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Subject: RE: BS: India: ethnic cleansing?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 11:04 PM

Warsan Shire: “Home”

Read it.


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Subject: RE: BS: India: ethnic cleansing?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 02:18 AM

Bobad
There is far more to a question like this than presenting an individual's take on these events - ethnic cleansing is part of world history and of what is beginning to happen internationally today
Using these horrific events to show that one people/culture/religion is more guilty than another is dishonest, inhuman and agenda driven - it makes ethnic cleansing more likely to continue than it does prevent it.
That someone who spends so much time defending the victims of one of the worst crimes in living memory should make themselves part of this is beyond my comprehension (I still have your mammoth list which set out to prove that Muslims have been culturally and socially degenerate since pre-Christian times)
The U.S. was built on Ethnically cleansing the Native Americans; modern Australia and New Zealand came into being similarly; Empires were created using ethnic cleansing and forcible acculturation... now we have the same openly taking place in The Middle East
It's about time we discussed it for what it is rather than finger-pointing whataboutism in order to defend our own prejudices and political interests
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: India: ethnic cleansing?
From: keberoxu
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 03:44 PM

"I don't see the relevance of a thousand years ago."

as in,
Why compare England or the US with
the ancient Roman empire?

if that sort of comparison doesn't appeal to you, well enough.
I can respect that.
It does interest me which is why I posted it.

The rest of your post, Gibb Sahib,
is a breath of fresh air.
The image of India is often perfumed with an odor of sanctity,
even sanctimony.
As opposed to humanity, which has a very different odor.

History does have a way of repeating itself.


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