Lyr Req: Rome she casts her shadow - oak-ash-thorn

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Rome she casts her shadow - oak-ash-thorn
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 06:10 PM

Good! Now we're getting to a point before Kipling. But how to the original poster's lyrics fit in? Melinda, can you tell us any more? Can you have your friend listen to Bellamy's recording (click) and tell us if it's the same song?
-Joe-

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Rome she casts her shadow - oak-ash-thorn
From: GUEST,Reinhard
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 09:43 AM

The Kipling Society's notes to his book Weland's Sword also say:

[Page 8, line 10] By Oak, Ash, and Thorn the formula may derive from the ballad of `Glasgerion' (Percy, Reliques of Ancient Poetry, 3rd ser., Bk. 1), where the hero:

    `swore a full great othe
    By oake and ashe and thorne'.

Philip Holberton has suggested that Kipling may also have found it in Charles Kingsley’s novel Westward Ho! In chapter 2: 'Sir Richard swore a great and holy oath, like Glasgerion’s, "by oak and ash and thorn.” '. He points out that Kipling certainly knew the book by 1893 when he wrote “An English School”, see Land and Sea Tales page 255, line 15.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Rome she casts her shadow - oak-ash-thorn
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 06:43 AM

Thanks for that Doug.

Indeed Child 67A has Glasgerryon swore a full great oath, By oake and ashe and thorne. (must have missed it because of the spelling).
Oak and ash and bitter thorn appear in Bert Lloyd's version (and in Martin Carthy's and Bert Jansch's , all of which I think derive from Bert's), and I think bitter may be part of Bert's rewrite, though I haven't checked for other versions yet.

Mick

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Rome she casts her shadow - oak-ash-thorn
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 06:22 AM

AS was mentioned once before on another thread, "Oak and Ash and Bitter Thorn" occurs in the Child Ballad "Glasgerion." Probably easiest to find on the Bert Jansch album "Jack Orion." I agree that it's more common to find just Oak and Ash without the Thorn.

To give credit where it's due, the name for our acapella trio was suggested by Amie Hill. Later, wanting to use a different tune than the Peter Bellamy, we commissioned a Mixolydian tune from Ellen Hoffman. A recording of that tune is on our 2001 CD "Old Enough to Drink" available for Download from CD Baby.

--Doug Olsen
Oak Ash & Thorn

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Rome she casts her shadow - oak-ash-thorn
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 05:32 AM

I think was looking for an folklore origin for oak and ash and thorn about a year ago, and couldn't find a source earlier than Kipling.

Mick

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Rome she casts her shadow - oak-ash-thorn
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 05:24 AM

Hmmm. I think most have "oak and ash" without the "thorn." Didn't find a single one with "thorn."

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Rome she casts her shadow - oak-ash-thorn
From: Susan of DT
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 05:16 AM

There are numerous songs that mention oak and ash and some other tree. A search for DT#319 comes up with 13 of these.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Rome she casts her shadow - oak-ash-thorn
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 05:11 AM

Good stuff, Starship. I first came in contact with Kipling when I was a Cub Scout leader. Many of Kipling's stories about Akela were in the Cub Scout handbooks....and in Disney's Jungle Book, and oh, they were wonderful tales.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Rome she casts her shadow - oak-ash-thorn
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 05:05 AM

About halfway down the page a paragraph begins: "In Something of Myself, Kipling traced the origins of these stories to a book he . . ." It's worth reading because it speaks to what you surmise; namely, that he was influenced by folklore, and sometimes in a big way.

https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poets/rudyard-kipling

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Rome she casts her shadow - oak-ash-thorn
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 01:41 AM

Thanks a lot, Starship. That puts weight to what was just a hunch for me.

But I think there's more to Kipling than just a vivid imagination. I think he draws from a wide variety of folkloric sources, and that's an aspect of Kipling that warrants further investigation.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Rome she casts her shadow - oak-ash-thorn
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 01:24 AM

"So, at this point at least, unless I find anything else² to indicate it predates Kipling, it looks like the idea of oak, ash, and thorn as a ‘fairy triad’ is a modern concept."

That is from https://www.patheos.com/blogs/agora/2016/05/irish-american-witchcraft-oak-ash-and-thorn-the-evolution-of-belief/ and it's a five minute read, but worth it.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Rome she casts her shadow - oak-ash-thorn
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 01:11 AM

Yeah, Starship, but that Wicca page seems to draw most of its information from Mudcat-related sources. I kinda think that the entire Wiccan tradition of oak-ash-thorn stems from Bellamy and Kipling.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Rome she casts her shadow - oak-ash-thorn
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 11:10 PM

That particular word grouping seems to attract attention. Some history here: http://www.jesterbear.com/Wicca/OakAshThorn.html

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Rome she casts her shadow - oak-ash-thorn
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 06:39 PM

I looked through both of the songbooks published in the 1970s by the California group Oak, Ash, and Thorn (two of whom have been Mudcatters). I didn't find anything like the lyrics posted above - and I didn't find the Bellamy/Kipling Oak-Ash-Thorn song, either.

It seems to me that the term "Oak, Ash, and Thorn" may be older than Kipling's "Tree Song" poem, which was published in Kipling's Puck of Pook's Hill in 1906.

Anybody know of an earlier source of the term "Oak and Ash and Thorn" and the grouping of these three elements together, or is it original with Kipling?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Rome she casts her shadow - oak-ash-thorn
From: GUEST,keberoxu
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 01:38 PM

Is it connected to
the musical group of that name?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Rome she casts her shadow - oak-ash-thorn
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 11:33 AM

Google helpeth not with locating this lyric, and I tried many combos.

Subject: Lyr Req: Rome she casts her shadow,
From: GUEST,Melinda
Date: 01 Sep 19 - 11:48 PM

I'm looking for the lyrics and melody to a song. Someone posted part of the lyrics on a group that I'm in, and it interested me. She said that she learned it as Oak and Ash and Thorn - only it isn't Kipling. The lyrics that she posted were the following:

"Rome she casts her shadow, her twilight on the land.
But maybe we can find a way to learn to understand.
What makes Britons, Britons. What ties you to Rome?

She first heard it about 25 years ago, she said, but doesn't know the author or any info about it. Any ideas?