BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Sep 19 - 05:29 AM

"left industries "
Freudian slip - we can but hope
I meant industries lef, of course
"British Justice a farce"
Thate - you have it from the donkey's mouth
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Sep 19 - 05:59 AM

May as well repeat this heer

Never thought I'd agree with this man -

Sir John Major has compared Boris Johnson to a dishonest estate agent,
saying that he had “ulterior motives” when he prorogued parliament.      
The former Tory prime minister,       whose lawyers will intervene today at the Supreme Court, has said in written submissions that Mr Johnson’s decision to suspend parliament was “unlawful”.
He argued that Mr Johnson’s justification for prorogation to bring forward       a new legislative programme “makes no sense and cannot be the true explanation”.
In a clear suggestion that Mr Johnson should not be believed, Sir John wrote that it would be “artificially naive” for the court to accept the prime minister’s stated reasons for the prorogation.

Talk about thieves falling out
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Sep 19 - 08:22 AM

Whatever the outcome to today it seems to be a case of U.K. - RIP
Wales has appealed against Johnson, a Northern Ireland representative has described the devastating effect all this will have on the Good Friday Agreement and Scotland has already won their case back home
No organisation of States can possibly survive that
Add to this Cameron's confession that he attempted to influence the Queen on the Devolution Referendum - you have Britain going to war with itself
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Sep 19 - 01:14 PM

It seems Madge has just handbagged Cameron for telling tales out of school
It seems nobody loves this dreadful minority Government any more, including many of it's own members
Bout time it was put out to grass - one Britain clears up the devastation it has caused, of course
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Iains
Date: 19 Sep 19 - 01:49 PM

Instead of our industries pissing off abroad like the Dysons of this sick world or simply collapsing, perhaps they'll fare better in the hands of those who actually do the work rather than just leech of it
Hope it's not too late and we actually have any left industries after this sorry xenophobic-created mess

More drivelling nonsense!
Let us take an example of British Leyland, where the unions thought they ran the show. Mr Edwards,was a veteran of corporate confrontation; his chairmanship of the British Leyland group was one of the definitive battles against trade union dominance in British industry. He was appointed in 1977 a year in which Leyland had lost production of 250,000 cars through industrial disputes. The shop stewards thought that with a Labour government they had the whip hand and could force Edwards to back down. BIG MISTAKE. He did not! They caused the loss of both factories and jobs and the company survived to fight another day.
I suppose you think that canny entrepreneurs like Dyson and Branston leech off the workers, yet their perspicacity actually created all the jobs. You obviously know absolutely nothing about business, but as you were but a sparky this is hardly surprising. If letting the workers control everything was the panacea you claim it to be it would be in worldwide use with clever people like Dyson and Branston leading the pack. Sensible people recognise the stupidity of the idea, hence it is not practised.

The UK is the second largest manufacturing country in the EU and still ranks number 6 in the world so to talk about Britain having any industries left is rather a silly statement.

Perhaps you need to add fact checker along with spellchecker to your Christmas list.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Sep 19 - 05:34 AM

Boris Trump-Johnson, on a self promotion romp in Wiltshire yesterday, told reporters (he managed to recognise them this time) that he would not rule out closing down Parliament again next month
He would wait for the outcome of the Appeal Court's findings before deciding anything
It appears that if this appeal fails he will be given carte blanche the right to crown himself Emperor of Britain
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Sep 19 - 06:04 AM

That is supported by a point raised in the closing remarks for the government yesterday. They said that if the court were to rule the prorogation were illegal, that should be its limit: it should not rule on what should happen next.

An interesting consequence of the Scottish Court decision what that the prorogation should be 'null and void'. That means it should be as if prorogation had never happened. As a result, the ability to prorogue would be as it was before the prorogation happened, and so there would be no obstacle to proroguing again immediately.

Given that the case has - in my interpretation - hinged on whether if illegality arose it did so from the duration or the claimed motivation of preventing scrutiny, I would be surprised if the Supreme Court decided it was illegal because of an attempt to prevent scrutiny but left open the route to do precisely that again.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Sep 19 - 06:08 AM

I find it mildly amusing that if the ruling goes against the Government they can appeal - to the ECJ.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Sep 19 - 03:28 AM

THE Labour Party, are suggesting imo a very sensible solution .put them in government, then they can negotiate a deal which will then be offered as a referendum, a choice, the negotited deal or leave. the last referndum did not specify how the uk would leave.
attention to detail, is where Johnson and Cameron is/were weak,the uk electorate has the right to know what it is voting on

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Iains
Date: 23 Sep 19 - 07:01 AM

the last referndum did not specify how the uk would leave.

The EU started as the common market.
It is implicit that in leaving the EU that we leave the common market and all that it entails. This was pointed out prior to the referendum.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Sep 19 - 07:54 AM

No, you are wrong the common market and the EU are two different things , we had a vote on entering The common market but no vote on ENTERING the EU.THE COMMON MARKET WAS PURELY A TRADING ORGANISATION. THE EU
How It Is Governed

Three bodies run the EU. The EU Council represents national governments. The Parliament is elected by the people. The European Commission is the EU staff. They make sure all members act consistently in regional, agricultural, and social policies. Contributions of 120 billion euros a year from member states fund the EU.

Here's how the three bodies uphold the laws governing the EU. These are spelled out in a series of treaties and supporting regulations:

    The EU Council sets the policies and proposes new legislation. The political leadership, or Presidency of the EU, is held by a different leader every six months.
    The European Parliament debates and approves the laws proposed by the Council. Its members are elected every five years.
    The European Commission staffs and executes the laws. Jean-Claude Juncker is the president until October 2019.


There was no discussion or proposition on how THE UK should leave the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Sep 19 - 08:15 AM

9000immediate job losses in Britain after Thomas Cooke bombs, thanks to Bexit, 100s in Northern Ireland - 1000s stranded abroad
Not the first and not the last

Don't waste your time or energy Dick - Shirley Valentine got more sense from her kitchen wall
We all know the the referendum never asked for anything specific - no planning, no specified conditions just "Let's get outta here and get rid of the foreigners" - every bit as mindless as that
A sulky teenager leaving home in a huff would give more thought to their future
Anybody who tells you anything was 'pointed out' is lying (an uncontrollable habit as this farce continues
Any moron who wishes to break off from any source of trade as Britain crumbles is a waste of space
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Sep 19 - 01:41 PM

“Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?"
Jim carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Sep 19 - 03:30 PM

Exactly,Jim, that was the wording of the 2016 referendum , that was what was voted on. THERE WAS NO WORDING WHATSOEVER ABOUT WHAT KIND OF BREXIT IT WOULD BE ,THERE WAS NO SUGGESTION OF ANY DEAL NO DEAL OR OTHERWISE ON THE 2016 REFERENDUM. THE FACT THAT CAMERON MAY HAVE MENTIONED IT ONCE IS NOT RELEVANT..YThe labour part have decided at their conference today , that if they win the next election, they will negotiate a deal with the EU A REFENDUM WILL BE PUT TO THE THE UK PEOPLE OFFERING THEM A CHOICE A NEW DEAL OR LEAVE
The uk voters will be able to know what they are voting for, this is fairer than the policy proposed by the liberal party

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Sep 19 - 03:37 PM

this gives back control to the british people they can vote again ,but know what they are voting for, if they vote leave then the uk should leave, if they vote to accept a deal then that should be what happens , it needs to be done again so that people have a choice and know what they are voting for, this is fairet to those leave voters who did not want a no deal brexit and did not realise that no deal might happen, that actuslly naively believed the conservatve government knew what it was doing.
this imo will be the least politically divisive outcome, any true patriot should understand that the best thing for a country is the least political division possible

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Sep 19 - 03:58 PM

The fairest thing for leave voters, as well as remain voters, non-voters and those too young to vote, is to stay in the EU. I'm not interested in just being fair to leave voters. If you voted leave, you were quite likely either a racist or a mug. Not definitely, but likely. I don't see why I should be singling out that cohort for fair play. I'm disappointed that Labour hasn't got off the fence. That's going to play badly in any election campaign, and not coming out solidly for remain is not coming out solidly for the best interests of the country.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 01:14 AM

I disagree Steve,it is a policy that puts back to the voters a chance to make a more informed judgement,. Steve your suggestion raises the possibilties of massive civil unrest similiar to the yellow vest campaign in france .
if you want rioting outside your front door, the liberal party policy is a likely way to get it ,you cannot piss off fifty percent of the populationby overiring a voteand not expect recriminations. a second vote with voters better informed on what they are voting on, is a less politically divisive and more democratic solution. the conservative party have probably alienated one of their tradtional supporters [the small farmer]

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 02:12 AM

None of the paths avoid the risk of rioting, and all are subject to the risk of manipulation, but the idea of a confirmatory referendum seems to offer a potential healing, though it does come with the risk of making the divisions worse. For one thing there will be a substantial group, no doubt lead by Farage amongst others, who will argue it is a choice between BRINO and remain: the only "true leave'is not offered.

Then again, a close result will heal nothing.

And of course the whole approach is too sophisticated to squeeze into a good slogan. "Your choice" is compact and accurate but explains nothing, for example, refers too.much to the 2016 referendum.


So, not a good way forward. But maybe the one with most chances of uniting the country, nonetheless.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 04:04 AM

The way to heal a divided country is through compromise, the labour party are offering a compromise, the liberal party are not neither are the conservatives. The labour party after being elected are offering as compromise, a negotiated deal or leave,the voters will vote[for the first time on an informed choice]that shows more respect for democracy than the other two.parties and hass the best chances of uniting the country, it may not be perefct , but it is imo the best thing on offer

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 04:21 AM

I think Corbyn is likely to get a deal from the EU, THAT IS BETTER THAN ANYTHING ELSE THAT HAS BEEN OFFERED SO FAR.
IF THE ELECTORATE REJECT IT, SO BE IT. we will all have to suffer the consequences. whatever they may be imo it is in the interests of the EU NOT TO HAVE A NO DEAL IT IS ALSO IN THE INTERESTS OF THE UK.
It is in the interest of law and order in the uk and democracy that neither a no deal or what the liberals propose is allowed to happen

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 05:15 AM

Dick, I'm not sure quite what it is you're disagreeing with me about. We appear to be on the same page. I've said that Labour's stance seems reasonable. All I said was that I'm disappointed that we're not going to campaign as a party for remain in a referendum. I'm still a member and I'm staying where I am!

DMcG is right. Whatever the outcome of this shambles, leave sentiment vs remain sentiment will still be scoring about equal in the country and that's a recipe for unrest whatever the ultimate outcome.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 06:06 AM

My mum used to say, “If you keep picking at a scab, it’ll never get better”.

Heed the words of a wise lady, Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 06:31 AM

I see Farage is now calling for Cummings to be sacked!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 06:46 AM

"I see Farage is now calling for Cummings to be sacked!"
Shit - he's after his job
If things go on as they are he'll probablt get it

Sorry lads - I mean to continue till he is stopped
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 07:06 AM

Then he won't be stopped and it will probably be down to just you.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: robomatic
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 07:06 AM

Iaians:

It seemed to me on the West side of the Atlantic, that it made no sense to separate from the EU at this point. I think Obama had it right when he attempted to campaign on behalf of the remainers.

The campaign of the Brexiteers seems to have had significant lies and emotional appeals.

Having said all that, there is scant evidence against the referendum itself but what is its legal force? It was not itself an election, it was a rather general expression of direction for an extremely complicated relationship.

So what is your big picture? What should the government be doing? Are you looking for a hard exit with all the confusion that is certain to come? Or an organized exit, which is what PM May was trying to achieve?

Forgive me if you have expounded something comprehensive and I've missed it, but do me the favor (favour) of directing me to your view of an optimum result to the coming hard date (or indeed, if you want to see a massive spanner hit the works, level with me on that prospect).

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 07:35 AM

In spite of claims that the referendum gave the government an instruction or mandate, it could do no such thing because it was not constitutionally set up that way; it was advisory only. A simple in-out question was put and there was a narrow majority in favour of leaving. 51.9% to 48.1% in fact. For three years the Tories have tried to strike a deal with the EU on our terms of leaving, but parliament has not agreed to any deal. There have been a couple of extensions to the leaving date, which should have been at the end of March. The current leaving date is October 31, but, as no leaving deal has been agreed, there is the danger of the UK crashing out without any arrangements having been made for future trade with the EU or for what happens about the border between the EU Republic of Ireland and the soon-to-be non-EU Northern Ireland. The border, which has around two hundred crossing points, was a major flashpoint for conflict during The Troubles, and there is a severe danger that visible border barriers, which currently don't exist, would rekindle the violence. The EU wants a backstop arrangement in place until trade deals are agreed. The backstop would mean that the UK stays in the EU customs union until such time and that the Irish border stays open, as now. That is not acceptable to the Tories, who fear that we'll be trapped in that customs union for ever. It would mean that we couldn't strike independent trade deals with non-EU countries and that you'll have to find alternative markets for your hormonal beef and chlorine chickens. :-) That's the potted story so far. The Tories want us out, the main opposition Labour Party wants another referendum with a deal vs remain on the ballot, and the LibDems, a very small minority party, want to abandon brexit without consultation.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Iains
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 08:11 AM

Both Labour and Tory gave a promise to the people to act on the instructions of the people via a referendum. They have reneged on the pact and wasted three years. They are clearly in opposition to the people and yet deny the people an election, therefore they have no legitimacy.
This can be called many things but certainly not democracy.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 08:14 AM

Closin parliment illegal - Unanimous decision - glorious day
Corbyn demands he "consider his position
Parliament re-opens tomorrow - Jim probably gets pissed tonight - must polish up my Irish accent to pretend I'm not one of them
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 12:55 PM

A further complication, robomatic, is that because it was never defined what Leave meant - or more precisely multiple inconsistent interpretations were suggested - that almost *any* form of Brexit is in line with what the 80% or so of Parliament agreed to when voting to invoke article 60. There are Brexiteers who are absolutely certain that all 17.4m voted for the version of Brexit they have in mind, and so any proposed form of Brexit that does not match is 'a betrayal of democracy' or some such. That is primarily why May's deal was voted down so often - a group referred to the ERG could not accept it because it did not fit their ideas, whatever all the rest of the 17.4m may have thought.

Calling for a confirmatory referendum is not going against the first vote - it is asking 'diud we get it right?' Arguably, calling for 'revoke' is, but I haven't checked how many LibDems voted for Article 40, so even that may be consistent with the earlier vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 01:09 PM

So I referred to Article 40 once and article 60 once. On average, then, I got it right :)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Iains
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 04:09 PM

Robomatic The idea for a referendum to settle the question of remaining or leaving the EU was promised by both Labour and Conservative parties.
Labour reneged under both Blair and Brown, Cameron honoured the commitment. Unfortunately dodgy Dave gave no thought to the idea that leave might have the majority and made no preparation for a leave vote.
Parliament voted overwhelmingly for article 50 to set the stage for leaving. The General Election held by May was fought with both parties fighting on a leave ticket.
May was a closet remainer as was the majority of MPs. These same MPs lied to their electorate in order to be elected and have since tried to sabotage Brexit, aided by a remainer speaker and most recently by a remainer supreme court who have overturned the 1688 bill of rights.
   We now have a situation where the majority vote for leaving the EU is being frustrated deliberately by Parliament setting itslf in opposition to the people. Furthermore these same people are denying an election because they know full well they would have a reckoning with the people and fail. If Brexit is frustrated, if article 50 is revoked, if an election is denied there is a fair chance that the patience of the majority will finally snap.
   Our Democracy can only work when the separation between the Executive, administrative and judiciary is kept inviolate.
Our democracy is clearly broken, rebels pass legislation with zero accountability. The speaker is clearly bending procedures to aid the rebels. The judiciary is passing judgement on political matters. This is an action forwhich they have no remit.
The people now despise all three branches of government. This cannot have a happy outcome. For the UK these are dangerous uncharted waters that have the potential to cause mayhem.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 05:40 PM

Sorry Guys but I have to say it to the troll.

"You lost deal with it" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 06:39 PM

Any referendum now would be on whether to get out of the EU on clearly specified terms, which is a completely different question from the vote-for-a-slogan on a lying bus back in 2016.

Moreover there are very good reasons to believe that there is now a majority in the public who would be likely to vote for remaining in the EU. Brexiteers brandish the expression "the will of the people" and talk about what happened three and a half years ago. The "will of the people" that deserves respect is the will of the people today. A fresh referendum would show what that is - and that is precisely who Brexiteers are so desperate to avoid having one.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take both type Control' D Cummings
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 07:09 PM

Raggytash, robomatic is a fellow with more than enough intelligence to sort the wheat from the chaff, and as his question has attracted both types of response here he'll have a little, but not too much, processing to do. If he wants.

I agree that remain would probably win another vote, which is why the Tories won't allow one if it's up to them. Whatever the outcome of all this, no matter how it's achieved, there'll be trouble for years to come. As for those judges, their decision was nothing to do with brexit and was politically neutral, if it was political at all. They have affirmed strongly that ANY executive in this country, no matter what its colour, must not capriciously prevent the ultimate sovereign body in this country, Parliament, from scrutinising the executive's actions. They have not said that Parliament can't be prorogued. But if the executive oversteps its mark, as has blatantly happened this time, we must, in a democracy, have the means to rein it in. That's precisely what the Supreme Court has done. The dangers of not having that constraint available are obvious.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 07:11 PM

And Gina Miller is absolutely exceptional, I must say.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: robomatic
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 07:38 PM

I am grateful to folks on both sides of the issue (and I realize there is more than just 'both' to the sides and issues that I simply don't have the background to recognize). Iaians I don't think your longish summary is irrational at all, but I don't see what your ideal situation would be. Is it a return to the economic situation prior to the formation of the EU? I don't think that is where you are but where are you?

What I gather from looking at recent history is that the heavy duty Europeanization of the continental economy seems to have been stimulated by the unification of Germany in 1990 and the extensive economic centralization that led to the introduction of the Euro just over ten years later. Along with these heightened concentrations of bureaucratic power in Brussels and the increasing porosity of European borders. The 90s and early zips seem to be a vital period where Europe was changing from a group of nations to a nascent superstate.

I remember talk in the U.K. in the 60s expressed as a U.S.E. a "United States of Europe". Then the comparison was to the U.S.A. although the prospects of a united Europe have been considered far before there were even American colonies. Clearly WWII was the impetus to consider uniting countries in an attempt to overcome nationalism, as was the institution the United Nations. The current U.S. President has rejected internationalism, using what for him is a pejorative "Globalism". Is this, Iaians, also where you are coming from in philosophy? Or are there other ramifications I'm not seeing (highly likely)?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 07:49 PM

My apologies to most people.

I just couldn't resist the opportunity!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 08:25 PM

The present-day EU started in the fifties as a common market of six states, the sentiment being that the mutual benefits of a close trading relationship would diminish the prospect of any more bloody European wars. It worked on the whole. The club has expanded into a bloc of 28 states, each of which has to sign up to democracy, human rights, free movement and the rule of law. Every nation is fully in control of its own domestic laws and taxation system and most countries are still pretty nationalistic. As for currency, nineteen countries are currently in the eurozone. Most of the others may become obliged to join, but the UK can not be obliged to join. There are varying levels of veto available to the member states; generally the bigger you are the more powers you have. The European Commission is a body comprising one appointed representative from each of the 28 nations. It proposes legislation and ensures that treaties are honoured, among other functions of oversight, but has no legislative power. The European Council consists mostly of the elected heads of each nation and is more involved in the political direction of the EU. But the only body that can ultimately agree legislation or regulations is the elected European Parliament.

The eurozone has caused inequities and difficulties for smaller nations, and my view is that the project was a bad idea. Having said that, looking at Germany, I think the UK would have done rather well had we joined. Who knows. There are other absurdities and inefficiencies that result largely from the disease of gigantism. Overall, I think that the EU has on balance been a force for good in a world in which huge blocs have dominion. The term "United States of Europe" is simply vexatious. The EU did not evolve in anything like the same way as the US, and there will never be a time when all 28 countries will have ditched their sovereignty in order to exist under a single president. Other favoured brexiteer pejoratives such as ever-closer union (impossible without our agreement) and unelected bureaucrats in Brussels forcing laws on us (a simple lie) and the threat of a European army (impossible as we've vetoed it) are equally vexatious.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Sep 19 - 02:11 AM

Parts of the media and elsewhere are arguing that this decision makes the replacement of judges with political appointments inevitable - similar to the US arrangement.

Such things are possible, of course, but it could only be by a law passed by Parliament. So Parliament would have to be voting to have less authority. It would take a rather strange set of events for that to happen, I suspect.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Sep 19 - 03:23 AM

Robo
Just a little clarification
There would have been nothing wrong in holding a referendum on leaving Europe if:
a) There has been signs beforehand that there was enough discontent from the general populace on the issue to merit one

b) The referendum had been held correctly, taking the general interests of the people as a whole into consideration and providing the voters with the information they needed

c) That those responsible had made and presented carefully drawn out plans as to what would replace Europe and the consequences of doing so

On the first, there were no signs and no general discontent about European membership - the proceedings of the Europe Parliament where as much a mystery and is as remote as is the inner working of the Westminster Government - we know only what they wish us to know
The main four individuals who pushed Brexit through were Cummings, Farage, Johnson and Cameron - in that order
It was the anti immigration groups and those whose political failures made it necessary to mlame immigration who pressed for leaving and it was that issue which won it
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-latest-news-leave-eu-immigration-main-reason-european-union-survey-a7811651.html
OR PUT MORE BLUNTLY

Second
The immediate reported response was on non-indideanous people being asked "when are you going home" - racist incidents have now risen by over 42%
No decision that adversely acts against millions of national residents can ever be described "democratic", especially as most of those are already disadvantaged by being non-indigenous
The most prominent and memorable feature of the campaign was Farage's poster, which actually teetered on the brink of illegality

Third
No plans were drawn up for leaving and the horrendous possible consequences were kept hidden when they were finally researched - when they were leaked, the Brexit leaders were more concerned about them having been leaked than being prepared to discuss them

The whole thing was based on a lie and generated by Xenophobia - not my idea of democracy
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Iains
Date: 25 Sep 19 - 04:26 AM

Robomatic
There is a lotof nonsense being spouted by remainers. The fact is that leave won the referendum and the latest survey results show 60% of people in the UK want brexit to proceed. Interestingly this is a much higher percentage than voted leave originally. It also contains a large number of those voting remain who simply want to see the democratic majority view prevail.
It also needs pointing out that what originally started as a customs union quickly changed to a monetry union and it is the clearly stated intention to make it a full on political union with centralisation of defence, foreign policy and taxation, accompanied by the destruction of the nation state and majority voting for everything and no veto powers to remain. Essentially to become a united states of europe.
Many remainers like to dispute this but the quotes outlining the above from various EU leaders are easily found. It is for these reasons most be voted leave, regardless of consequences.
Remainers argue over minutiae in a mindless attempt to somehow invalidate the outcome ofthe referendum. They get progressively more strident as they see their efforts repeatedly fail.
I recommend you look at the Guido Fawkes site that is a rolling commentary on political events in the UK with a comprehensive comments section.
The lefties hate it with a passion because his content is irrefutable, hence all the ad hominem attacks on him from this forum(and constant deletions) By the hatefest shown on here against him he must be doing something very right! Everytime a survey result is quoted that goes against the narrative the lefties attack it. They actually have no real argument to offer as to why the majority vote should not be respected, hence all the insults and bluster. Rational conversation on this topic ceased years ago, but recent events are now building to the crunch. We have Parliament in opposition to the government of the day and the people, aided by the collusion of the speaker and supreme court, yet demands for an election are constantly thwarted. Yet this is the only way their actions can gain legitimacy-the downside being that the electorate willboot most ofthe rebels out of parliament shouldan election occur. We also have the worst leader of the opposition ever.
Those who voted to leave are getting very impatient that a minority are obstructing them.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Sep 19 - 05:40 AM

"There would have been nothing wrong in holding a referendum on leaving Europe if:
a) There has been signs beforehand that there was enough discontent from the general populace on the issue to merit one

b) The referendum had been held correctly, taking the general interests of the people as a whole into consideration and providing the voters with the information they needed

c) That those responsible had made and presented carefully drawn out plans as to what would replace Europe and the consequences of doing so..."

Well you could have added to those the need to set the bar very high for leaving (an irrevocable decision). I suggested at least a two-thirds majority of a turnout not less than 75%. A remain vote is much easier to overturn at some future date. The referendum was thus fatally skewed. But, even had all these caveats been in place, the referendum (called by a man who was thereby trying to stave off the threats from UKIP and his own backbenchers, lest we forget) would still not have been justified. The extremely complicated consequences of leaving which we now see all too clearly were either seriously downplayed or simply not put before the people in the campaign. We elect parliament to look into all the ramifications of policy changes before they are decided on. That's the full-time job of MPs who have not only their own experience but also the input of hundreds of advisers and other civil servants. Just to pre-empt the expected brainless input of those who say that that's an insult to the intelligence of the populace, I beg you just to watch the dreary vox pops that are on just about every BBC news bulletin these days. The level of public political ignorance routinely on display is depressing in the extreme and is a brilliant argument against giving crucial decisions about the future of this country back to the people in referendums. Ignorance leaves you vulnerable to lies and propaganda. That was cynically exploited ceaselessly by both sides in the referendum campaign. And Jim's right about the fact that there was little appetite for a squabble in the country over Europe. We were bumping along just fine. Successive Tory leaders all the way back to Thatcher have all bitten the dust via making A Big Thing about Europe instead of focusing on domestic issues. Just for once I'd love to see unlearned history repeating itself.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Sep 19 - 05:44 AM

More chaos fro The Tory Party dying swan
Tory dissidents are insisting their conference be held on time and Johnson is demanding a Parliamentary recess in order to hold it
Labour will oppose any attempts to close parliament again, insisting that discussing the crisis is more important than bailing the Tories out of the mess of their own creation
What a fiasco
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Sep 19 - 05:58 AM

I think the Tories should have their conference but without a recess. It would be interesting to see what legislation could be passed :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Iains
Date: 25 Sep 19 - 05:59 AM

Yes indeed! a fiasco caused entirely by those who refuse to accept the majority decision.
This is well exemplified by the ex supreme court buffoon interviewed on sky:Former Supreme Court Judge Lord Sumption told the BBC this morning that “52% of the electorate simply cannot have 100% of the spoils, they have to engage with the rest”.

The referendum was a binary choice, Leave or Remain. If the vote had been to Remain, Britain would not have semi-Brexited, it would have 100% remained in the EU. The British political system is adversarial, very adversarial currently, it usually results in clear outcomes. When a candidate wins a single vote more than their opponents they do get in fact 100% of the spoils.

Just fancy tha,t a remainiac ex judge that apparently has not the first idea of what democracy means. Rather like the Supreme court judges of whom only one was a brexiteer. They should have recused themselves!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Sep 19 - 12:49 PM

Leave-with-a-Norway-deal and Leave-with-a-Canada deal are perfectly valid alternatives to Leave-with-no-deal and they completely abide by the wishes of the 52% as far as anyone can tell. As I say, there is a brand of Brexiteer who claims everything except their personal interpretation of Leave is not leave at all. That is why I tried for a long time to distinguish between Leavers - those who simply voted Leave - and Brexiteers who insist on the One True Brexit. But I am afraid it proved impossible to maintain that distinction because the terms were thrown around as interchangeable.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Iains
Date: 25 Sep 19 - 01:57 PM

Reasons for regaining our sovereignty
(I draw your attention to the jean claud junker quote below, before you start your 'taking the cuntry' back bullshit)


1)Defence:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/08/jean-claude-juncker-calls-for-eu-army-european-commission-miltary

https://www.politico.eu/article/angela-merkel-emmanuel-macron-eu-army-to-complement-nato/

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/eu-army-angela-merkel-macron-germany-france-military-european-commission-juncker
2) Common Foreign Policy
https://www.ecfr.eu/article/commentary_prominent_europeans_call_change_in_approach_eu_foreign_policy

https://www.cer.eu/publications/archive/policy-brief/2019/should-eu-make-foreign-policy-decisions-majority-voting
Common Taxation or harmonisation
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/eu-commission-pushes-ahead-with-plan-to-end-unanimity-on-tax-1.3746080

and to clarify the nature of the beast:Jean-Claude Juncker's most outrageous political quotations:
1) On Greece's economic meltdown in 2011
"When it becomes serious, you have to lie.

2) On EU monetary policy
"I'm ready to be insulted as being insufficiently democratic, but I want to be serious ... I am for secret, dark debates"

3)On British calls for a referendum over Lisbon Treaty
“Of course there will be transfers of sovereignty. But would I be intelligent to draw the attention of public opinion to this fact?,”

4) On the introduction of the euro
"We decide on something, leave it lying around, and wait and see what happens. If no one kicks up a fuss, because most people don't understand what has been decided, we continue step by step until there is no turning back."

5) On eurozone economic policy and democracy
“We all know what to do, we just don't know how to get re-elected after we've done it”

All the above are individually reason enough to want out of the EU, but the remainiacs simply refuse to acknowledge these facts and simply deny them!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Sep 19 - 05:00 PM

All recent polls on the sibject indicate that there is now a majority against leaving the EU. That is especially true among the young - in 2016 the voting breakdown among 18-30 year olds was 70-30 in favour of Brexit. The number of young people who have come on the electoral roll since then is several times as large as the Leave majority over Remain back in 2016. The only peole calling for a fresh referendum are Remainers, those opposed to one are virtually all Brexiters.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Iains
Date: 25 Sep 19 - 05:21 PM

All recent polls on the sibject indicate that there is now a majority against leaving the EU.

Hmmmmmmm!!!!!! LINKS???

Comres sept 2019
Three in five of the British public agree that Parliament has had plenty of time to debate Brexit and we should just get on with leaving the EU (60%), including one third (35%) of 2016 Remain voters.