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BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings

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Subject: BS: BXIT 'TAKE BACK CONTROL' D Cummings
From: robomatic
Date: 07 Sep 19 - 02:28 PM

The New York Times has an opinion piece centered on Dominic Cummings, who is probably unknown to the bulk of Americans even if they are concerned with the current pandemonium regarding Brexit in the U.K.

He is apparently a man of the single idea.

The author of the New York Times article mentions:

"Mr. Cummings, a spindly, socially diffident, unsmiling figure, spoke next. He was emphatic, evocative. He talked about pride, independence, nationhood, sovereignty, dignity, making our own laws and decisions.

I detested Brexit and all it stood for, but I was captivated. Mr. Cummings was making it sound like the noble path. I came home anxious and uneasy. Remainers were way ahead in the polls, but would they come up with something effective to combat the deep emotions that Mr. Cummings’s campaign was tapping into?

They never did. Mr. Cummings went on to drive Brexit, pushing it to a narrow victory against huge internal opposition, by focusing aggressively on what worked. He outwitted Britain’s establishment by combining a brilliantly simple slogan — “Take back control” — with shameless lies about the European Union, the National Health Service and the danger that Turks could soon emigrate to Britain en masse, all backed up by a huge and hidden microtargeted social media campaign. Every element was designed to have a powerful, visceral appeal.

Mr. Cummings proved that stories and lies, allied to strategic cunning, conviction, secrecy, ruthlessness and upending convention, could be much more appealing than reason and fact.


I think Cummings is portrayed by Benedict Cumberbatch in last year's movie: "Brexit - The Uncivil War."


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Subject: RE: BS: BXIT 'TAKE BACK CONTROL' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Sep 19 - 02:31 PM

Anarchist !!!
Gives a bad name to Syndicalism
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: BXIT 'TAKE BACK CONTROL' D Cummings
From: Iains
Date: 07 Sep 19 - 02:36 PM

He probably learnt his trade by studying the antics of Alastair Campbell, the Downing Street Director of Communications and spokesman for the Labour Party under bliar blair. The man who insisted Dr Kelly be named and shamed, and who sexed up dodgy dossiers of WMD to take us to war in Iraq. Dominic Cummings has a long and winding road to follow in order to equal Campbell in infamy.


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Subject: RE: BS: BXIT 'TAKE BACK CONTROL' D Cummings
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Sep 19 - 02:53 PM

”Cummings went on to drive Brexit, pushing it to a narrow victory against huge internal opposition, by focusing aggressively on what worked. He outwitted Britain’s establishment by combining a brilliantly simple slogan — “Take back control” — with shameless lies about the European Union, the National Health Service and the danger that Turks could soon emigrate to Britain en masse, all backed up by a huge and hidden microtargeted social media campaign. Every element was designed to have a powerful, visceral appeal.

Mr. Cummings proved that stories and lies, allied to strategic cunning, conviction, secrecy, ruthlessness and upending convention, could be much more appealing than reason and fact.”


And the indoctrinated half-wits, on this forum and elsewhere, still turn themselves inside-out in their efforts to defend the indefensible. You really could not make it up.


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Subject: RE: BS: BXIT 'TAKE BACK CONTROL' D Cummings
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Sep 19 - 03:17 PM

oh well if you say we're halfwits BWM, we'll definitely take your word for it.

I regularly write to my MP and he understands my concerns, even if doesn't agree with me. You willfully misunderstand and then sling insults around. If anything loses another referendum for the Remainers- which is looking quite likely this week - it will be their rudeness.


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Subject: RE: BS: BXIT 'TAKE BACK CONTROL' D Cummings
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Sep 19 - 03:37 PM

There are as many insults hurled around by Leavers as there are by Remainers Al - the most abusive and insulting poster on this forum is one of your lot, a Leaver.

I’ve never made death-threats against Leavers the way they have against me and many other Remainers, Al. I’ve mentioned it before - several times - and you haven’t responded even once.

And you really do need to grow a skin, and stop taking things said as generalities personally - if I’d wanted to insult you, I would have directed my comment at you personally, but I didn’t and I didn’t. But if you wish to identify yourself as one of the ‘indoctrinated half-wits’, and choose to be ‘offended’, there’s nothing I can do to stop you.

So - any comment on the piece I quoted in italics, or are you only interested in picking a fight with me...yet again?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Sep 19 - 04:34 PM

I think Al is partially right: rudeness, from whoever to whoever, hardens opinion, it does not change it. But I disagree that it is most likely reason: I think few remainers have genuinely tried to understand the reasons people voted leave. Too often it is only asked to get a reason to insult (racist! Stupid!) rather than to find out what motivates people who do not fall into such simple categories. There is no point repeating arguments that were not convincing first time around. Remainers need to show remaining is a better answer to those concerns than leaving. Unless it does that, it will fail.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: robomatic
Date: 07 Sep 19 - 04:44 PM

The photo of Cummings in the NYT piece makes him look, to me, scary crazy even more bughouse than Wayne LaPieere (of the American NRA).


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Sep 19 - 07:14 PM

Whilst I appreciate your efforts to understand leavers, DMcG (and, dammit, I've tried...), I do things like listen to Question Time and Any Answers (did you listen to today's, fer chrissake...), and attend to the cheap telly vox pops that the Beeb indulges in, and I'm afraid that there's no other conclusion to be reached than that the huge majority of leave voters are uninformed, quite likely racist and, at best, have an extremely superficial understanding of our politics. They are thereby suckered in by the likes of the Sun, Mail and Express and, by dint of their ignorance, are easy meat for right-wing populism. To me, that's how it is, and it goes a bloody long way towards explaining why the Tories, after everything, are still ahead in the polls...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Sep 19 - 02:01 AM

Yes, Steve, but we don't have to deal with the majority of Leavers. I have no idea how accurate it was, but in the dramatisation of Cummings with Benedict Cumberbatch the point was made that there were committed Remainers, and there was no point wasting the Leave team wasting effort there. Nor was there much point preaching to the already committed Leavers. All the focus needed to be on the undecided. And remember in the last referendum it only needed around 2% of the people who voted to swing the result, and of course far less than that of the whole population. So no matter how many there are on either side who will not change their view, they are not the critical ones.

Of course, time marches on, and it is extremely hard to predict what all the effects of changes in demographics, the sorry saga of the past few years, and what might happen during a campaign but I don't think either side can assume it will be anything other than a struggle with an uncertain outcome. So I see no point in alienating anyone unnecessarily.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Sep 19 - 02:05 AM

Or to put it another way, I am not saying understand the opposition to be nice. I am saying understand them as a means to win.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Sep 19 - 02:53 AM

if anyone has read Diary of a Nobody Cummings is like his name sake, an insiinficant twerp who has risen above his station, he does not know if he is coming or going[ cummings or gowings=.
His contributions to the bigger picture of history will be as significant as being savaged by a dead sheep. he appears tro have a serious drink problem.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Sep 19 - 02:56 AM

itis difficult to understand someone who his actions are fuelled by too much alcohol, most of the time he seems to be unfit to be able to drive a car himself let alone drive an economy


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Sep 19 - 03:02 AM

Cummings is a political vandal a negative force whose destruction seems to be fueeled by bottles of booze


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Sep 19 - 04:11 AM

It has to be understood that there were some leavers who did not vote for leave with a no deal, Denis Skinner has always been opposed to europe. i do not know how he voted, but i am sure he is opposed to leaving without a deal


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Sep 19 - 04:17 AM

I have also tried to understand the leave logic, DMcG, and have asked extensively on here and elsewhere why they voted as they did. A simple summary of the responses is

1. Control immigration
2. Not be bound to EU laws
3. Not be controlled by unelected beurocrats
4. Not pay into Europe
5. The EU is corrupt and inefficient

When I point out that 1, we do control immigration, 2, we help to create and approve those laws and 3, we elect the EU parliament, I am met with, at best, silence or, at worse, abuse. Point 4 could be valid. We do pay more in than we take out financially but I believe the non monetary benefits outweigh that. Point 5 may be true but we stand no chance of changing that if we leave and will still have to deal with them. I have not, to date, had any response to my last 2 points.

Some of my closest friends are leavers. I know they are not stupid. I do believe however that they have been conned by masters at the game. No shame in that. Those masters are still at it. They have no response to the predictions of dire consequences so it is all labelled project fear. They cannot address the genuine fears of remainers so they label them traitors and rebels. So, full circle, back to "Mr. Cummings proved that stories and lies, allied to strategic cunning, conviction, secrecy, ruthlessness and upending convention, could be much more appealing than reason and fact." Sad but true.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Sep 19 - 04:17 AM

I'm not disagreeing with anything you say, DMcG. Focusing on the undecided seems to be something that the devious and the possessors of ulterior motives are much better at than the honest and straightforward. The devil has all the best tunes, the leaver-liars had all the best slogans and we never seem to see that coming.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Sep 19 - 04:30 AM

Dave, good points ,there is much to be critical of about the EU. FIRST originally we voted to join something different,.. the common market. HOWEVER points 1,3,5,also apply to the uk.
I am opposed to leaving the uk without a deal. from a purely personal point of view, I prefer to remain in europe.if however the uk were to leave and be in a similar position to Norway, that would not be as harmful in an economic sense[ for bothe the uk and ireland] as leaving without a deal.
point 2 .well there are good and bad european laws, but right now I TRUST the Eu to be more socially democratic than a conservastive controlled independent uk. in view of that I prefer europe, and if i get a chance to vote on a second referendum would vote remain


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Sep 19 - 04:39 AM

From The Observer today.

The message Johnson wanted to convey was that the MPs’ attempts to block no deal were taking the heat off Brussels. During an hour of discussions, [Greg] Clark asked for some specific details on particular issues and Johnson said someone from his office would get back to him. Later that day, Clark received a phone call from Johnson’s closest aide, Dominic Cummings, which failed to provide answers. Instead Clark found himself on the end of a foul-mouthed tirade.

According to sources aware of the exchange, Cummings bawled at him, saying: “When are you MPs going to realise that we are leaving on 31 October?” before adding: “We are going to fucking purge you.”


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Sep 19 - 04:40 AM

It seems very likely that the theme of the leave side in a further referendum will either be "Tell them again" or "People versus Parliament". Neither line says anything whosoever about whether being the EU is beneficial, or even anything about the EU at all. So it would be very easy for remain to campaign on the wrong ground. That is the kind of thing I mean when I say we need to addressing the things that people are being energised about.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Sep 19 - 04:42 AM

to con tinue, if there was a genuine chance of a socialist independent uk , that would be preferable ,but i do not think the establishment will allow that to ever happen, so i find remaining in Europe a slightly better option.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Sep 19 - 05:32 AM

The Times this morning suggests that Cummings is more interested in destroying the Labour Party than he is about Brexit Corbin has him and his ilk scared shitless enough to destroy Britain rather than let Labour win
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Sep 19 - 08:40 AM

Amber Rudd has said that the Government is no longer attempting to get a deal on Brexit - "90+% of its efforts are now concentrating on crashing out of Europe without a deal"
A
She describes the sacking of 21 MPs as "an assault on decency and democracy" - she gives this as a reason for her resignation

A matter of business:
Can I suggest that we now use this thread for the Brexit discussion rather than wait for the other one to reach the basement each time we want to post
It seems to cover all the angles
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Sep 19 - 11:33 AM

Get Ready for No-Deal Brexit...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Sep 19 - 06:51 PM

1. Control immigration
2. Not be bound to EU laws
3. Not be controlled by unelected beurocrats
4. Not pay into Europe
5. The EU is corrupt and inefficient

When I point out that 1, we do control immigration, 2, we help to create and approve those laws and 3, we elect the EU parliament, I am met with, at best, silence or, at worse, abuse. Point 4 could be valid. We do pay more in than we take out financially but I believe the non monetary benefits outweigh that. Point 5 may be true but we stand no chance of changing that if we leave and will still have to deal with them. I have not, to date, had any response to my last 2 points.

Some of my closest friends are leavers. I know they are not stupid. I do believe however that they have been conned by masters at the game. No shame in that. Those masters are still at it. They have no response to the predictions of dire consequences so it is all labelled project fear. They cannot address the genuine fears of remainers so they label them traitors and rebels. So, full circle, back to "Mr. Cummings proved that stories and lies, allied to strategic cunning, conviction, secrecy, ruthlessness and upending convention, could be much more appealing than reason and fact." Sad but true.


Just once more. (point 1) We do not have control of immigration (from EU) freedom of movements prevents this.

(point 2) Self-explanatory


(Point 3) The bureaucrats in the EU who are unelected, are the only ones permitted to put forward new legislation. It doesn't really matter if we get the option to put a minority vote against them. We cannot put forward new legislation, and any suggested legislation which does not fit the mindset of the EU just doesn't get put forward.


(point 4) again, self-explanatory. We are one of the few countries making a positive financial contribution to the EU.


(point 5) The EU has failed to get its budget 'signed off' by auditors in many years. A business with that record would not be permitted to trade.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Sep 19 - 08:34 PM

Bunch of lies, Nigel, and you know it.

First, immigration. We have total control, if we want it, over non-EU immigration. Yet non-EU immigration routinely exceeds EU immigration. Care to explain?

Next, EU laws. We are bound only by laws concerning food standards, animal welfare standards and the rest that are not only rather good laws (chlorine chicken, anyone?) but which we have wholeheartedly agreed with. We have wholeheartedly agreed with over 95% of EU laws and regulations over the last 30 years, abstained on about two percent and been outvoted on the rest, most of that "rest" being pretty trivial. In general, most EU regulations are unanimously agreed to without the need to go to a vote. That is, agreed to by 28 countries, Nigel. In the case of important issues that we may wish to disagree with, we, as a large EU nation, have the veto. For example, there can never be an EU army whilst we are members because we have vetoed it. Finally on this point, the EU has no control over our domestic laws, none whatsoever. They can't control our policies on taxation, housing, health service, education, welfare, policing and the rest.

Next, "unelected bureaucrats." Yes, the Commission (in which we are intimately involved) suggests policy. But that can't be executed without the express consent of the European Parliament, which is an ELECTED body (did you vote, Nige?). As you say, the bureaucrats can "put forward" legislation. But that's all they can do. You appear to think that we're stupid enough to think that "put forward" means the same thing as "agree to" or "execute." Tough shit, Nigel. You may be hoping that the electorate in general are stupid enough to swallow that lie, but some of us here on Mudcat can see right through you, old bean.

Next, the money. Well, we were lied to about the amount we pay in, as you know, but yes, we do make a net contribution as one of the richest economies in the world. But, Nigel, our overall EU financial involvement is about one percent of our GDP. For that, we get to help poorer EU countries in order to enable them to continue to run themselves according to high standards in terms of democracy, human rights and the rule of law, the sort of thing that has kept the peace across Europe for the last seventy-five years, and, in return, we get assistance for the poorer regions in the UK and massive subsidies for our farmers. The net deficit is tiny in comparison with our overall GDP and we get lots in return in terms of standards and security. A small price to pay, some would say. And a bloody small price compared with what we'll be paying if we crash out. Think tariffs, Nige...

Next, budget not signed off. This is blatantly untrue. Last time I comprehensively dealt with that was with Teribus donkeys' years ago. I'm not going to keep countering blatant lies, Nigel. I'll be charitable to you on this occasion and assume that you haven't actually looked it up, rather that you've swallowed a bit of propaganda from somewhere or other.

Keep trying, Nigel, but do try not to keep casting yourself as a brexiteer desperado. If you think we're better out, give us your reasons, but stop wailing about what we all know is by far the best setup for the UK, imperfect though it is, which is to stay in. Your challenge is to give us the good news about life outside the EU. We're waiting...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Sep 19 - 08:49 PM

The main reasons I vote leave is that I do not believe our position is sustainable within the EEC.

Our environment and economy are controlled by people who are are in an unanswerable position of power. they are observably doing us down at every juncture.

BWM always blames the fact that about 75% of cars on our roads before we went in were of British manufacture and now they're not - on being the result of our lousy government. But what complexion of government could have made it work. We've had everything from Wilson, who had bona fide communists (with the Spycatcher gang waging war against them) right up to Thatcher who was just a bit right of Mussolini.

I think you have to accept that the motives of Johnson etc have little of the public interest at heart. But fuck it - we need out - while theres still a fish in the waters round our coast, while theres still the remnants of an industrial workforce in the north.

You point out that there is some conspiracy going on with Trump. But there are some bloody dodgy characters in your camp. Major the who masterminded the ERM business. Blair - nuff said. then there are these sinister millionaires who seem to be actively engaged whilst keeping a low profile. Web millionaires, who probably make more money in a morning than I've done in a lifetime.

I don't know why you have no doubts about your position. certainly I have doubts about mine. but I see no convincing answers - I just get told I'm a half wit, a racist, unintelligent....which may be true, but let he who is without sin cast the first stone.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Sep 19 - 09:06 PM

"Our environment and economy are controlled by people who are are in an unanswerable position of power. "

Just not true, Al. I don't know where you're getting that from. With respect, you appear to be dealing with received wisdom. Read my last post and feel free to counter, with facts, what I said. The EU is no less democratically accountable than is our own government. I've said it before and I'll say it again: the EU consists of 28 fiercely nationalistic countries. That's very healthy. The EU operates on the basis of mutual consent. And if we don't agree on massively important issues, we have the veto. These are the facts of the matter, Al.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Sep 19 - 10:20 PM

No Steve, the information is I'm dealing with is not received other than receiving the self evident facts before my eyes.

the countries in the EU have their own citizens to look after which they do with a zeal, alien to the patricians of Westminster.

What is quite evident when talking to my MP is that central government feels it has a blank cheque once elected. they're like Henry VIII , having signed a death warrant. they do what the fuck they like.   think of how Thatcher, once she had the constituencies in her pocket that would retain her power, the rest of the country could go hang and be pillaged at will.

Ask yourself - why in God's name a gang of twats over in Europe would feel themselves more accountable or less. the statospheric salaries we pay often to people unable to run a whelk stall in English politics really tells its own story.

Anyway I see no reason for bitterness, abuse, and insult. In a way, we are all victims of the situation that we find ourselves in. If there is a way through this chaos, it will be found by more divergent thinkers than the loudmouth gang currently in the House of Commons. Perhaps the first important step would be making a rule that when the speaker is speaking -everyone else shuts up and listens.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 01:13 AM

ACCORDING TO THE GUARDIAN.British shellfish sales to the EU (mostly France and Spain) are worth £430m a year – more than a quarter of all UK fish exports by value. They are vital to small-scale fishermen in Scotland and the West Country. They will be devastated overnight if the UK loses paper-free access to the EU single market.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 03:03 AM

NIgel's claims seem to have dropped the actual benifits on fisheries and farming they once did - they are now almost entirely based on unproven and largely unmeritd negative claims

"EU" laws are rules agreed mutually by by members of any organisation - they are not laws and they are changeable by those members
They are not made by faceless beurocrats, they are devised and agreed on by the members for the benefit of their own states
Britan has its own version of Rules and regulations for exactly the same reason
"nelected bureaucrats" - everything we doo is governed by rules made by "unelected bureaucrats" - safety, trade, working conditions.....
This is amorphously meaningless
You pay of the upkeep of everything you join - we are at present being asked to pay for Trump's Wall - if we refuse he will refuse to trade with us
Unsubstantiated corruption and efficianecy is a nonsensical suggestuion
C and I exists everywhere in and out of Europe - from our parliament to the overuse of the plastics which is helping destroy our planet
Within an organisation lke Europe it is possible to expose and control these thisngs - outside it is not
These are absolutely pathetic excuses and justifications grabbed from the ait=r, not reasoned out arguments

That immigration should be at the top of your list says everything that needs to be said about Brexit
Immigration in no way contributes to the problems of the UK and it has bnever nbeen claimed other than by fundamentalists of the like of the NF, the BNP and Ukip, that it has
There are no faxcts and figures behind this disgusting claim, on the contrary, the establishment itself has produced arguments of the beneficial aspects of emigration
One of the facts that has emerged during Brexit is that our science and medicine =industries will be be severely hit if scientists from abroad are not allowed to work freely in Britain
Britain is one of the leading nations to create the conditions which have caused the need of foreigners to leave home
We have financed, armed, and politically supported despots in countries like Saudi Arabia, Syria, and other parts of the Middle East and Africa
We are part of the demand for oil that is a major contributor to the conflicts that are creating mass immigration and refugeeism
We fill our shops with goods produced under slave-like conditions - we are a part of a new, international slave-trade that has brought about an economic migration of massive proportions
It is inhuman and totally immoral to suggest we should not be part of something we are feeding and have come to rely on
But thank you for confirming that this is totally based on keeping people out
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 03:28 AM

Our environment and economy are controlled by people who are are in an unanswerable position of power. they are observably doing us down at every juncture.

The EU parliament is elected, just like the UK one is. Our own representatives have more say in what goes on in Europe than most of the other countries. The are not only answerable but totally replaceable. You have been sold a lie, Al.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 04:04 AM

”BWM always blames the fact that about 75% of cars on our roads before we went in were of British manufacture and now they're not - on being the result of our lousy government.”

That’s a lie, Al, as you very well know. Disagree with me by all means, but don’t demean yourself by stooping to barefaced lies.

What I’ve actually said - on several occasions - is that the decline of British industry was due to a complex set of circumstances, amongst which were...

1) Poor industrial relations
2) Under-investment by businesses
3) Short-sighted, complacent managements who believed that the customers would always ‘buy British’, no matter the quality (or lack of it) of the product
4) During the Thatcher years, a government policy which was designed to destroy TU power.

”But what complexion of government could have made it work. We've had everything from Wilson, who had bona fide communists (with the Spycatcher gang waging war against them) right up to Thatcher who was just a bit right of Mussolini.”

And if that’s the case, exactly how was it the fault of the ECM/EEC/EC/EU?

You’re a victim of your own prejudices, reinforced by the lies of Dom & Dumber, and the cabal of tax-dodging multi-millionaires driving and controlling the entire Brexit campaign.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 05:22 AM

Its their fault because they have entered into an agreement with a party - that they have no intention of respecting - how ever they were approached and by whom.

its our fault - because a generation of plonkers (who could see very plainly that Edward Heath was Mr English twit personified) still went and voted for him.

And Jim it has fuck all to with keeping people out. It has much to with respecting the wishes of the coastal communities and northern communities of industrial workers, whose efforts supplied much of the wealth of this country and virtually all the political support for the party who made the place liveable in.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 05:32 AM

One more time then:

"Our environment and economy are controlled by people who are are in an unanswerable position of power."

EU policy and regulations are agreed either by consensus among 28 states (better be pretty uncontroversial before THAT can be achieved, eh!) or by an ELECTED European Parliament. Constantly churning out the blatant lie that anything is forced on us by unelected, unanswerable people in Brussels, etc, will never make it more true. I can't think where your "self-evident" conviction can possibly be coming from. Not from reality, that's for sure. And again, ninety-nine percent of our economy, in terms of GDP, has nothing to do with the EU. As for the environment, tell me exactly how you think the EU is damaging or controlling it via unanswerable people then tell me why the Green Party is desperately trying to keep us in the EU.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Iains
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 05:49 AM

To get back on track I wonder what cunning wheezes the master of the dark arts Mr Cummings has for our delectation and delight today? He has just been joined by an Irishman as head of digital communications, to reach the parts that others cannot reach.

Magic grandad is slipping nicely in the polls, 10 points behind Boris, and that is not even counting the brexit party. They are chewing away nicely at all those northern labour heartlands.

Should be an interesting week in politics


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 07:15 AM

In the meanwhile Baldric has a cunning plan to send 2 contradictory letters to the EU.

BoJo to send contradictory letters

Where is this story from you ask. The Guardian, that hotbed of communist revolution maybe? No, that well known fascist bum-wipe, the Daily Heil.

Maybe Dom boy is in the pay of BoJo's enemies? Maybe it is a plan of the clowns ringmasters to make Tess of the Dumbervilles original plan look good after all?

Who knows. Still, unless something happens before parliament is suspended we will have to wait a month. Hopefully the prorogation of parliament will have shot BoJo in both oversize feet as well :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 07:22 AM

"And Jim it has fuck all to with keeping people out. "
I'm afraid it has Al - go dig out Farage's Rivers of Blood Poster and put it alongside the spike in racist incidents
We've been through all this coastal communities shit - they are now running scared about having no access to European waters
FISHING
The Northern industrial communities are set fair to be hit hardest by Brexit
HERE
DETAILED STUDY
The North supported it because Farage persuaded them that immigratants were taking their jobs (they would have added "and women", if they thought they could have got away with it)
Not one of you stoppers inners have been able to put forward a single, viable reason for leaving
You've allowed yourself to be conned Al
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 08:21 AM

Let's put it another way - we've ended up in the shit.

We need to try another route. If you are content with a situation where your tax money goes to buy police cars from Skoda - if you want to extend this sort of largesse to our European neighbours - fair enough, I can see why you're really happy this week.

Of course the EU will hit us with everything they've got when over 12% of their funding disappears. But we didn't get into this shit overnight, and sometimes you've got to take the high road.

BWM -of course no one invests in us. Why would they when EU policy sticks the kybosh in wherever is most painful.

Jim - would it be possible for you to stretch your mind back to when we had virtually an open door policy to Commonwealth citizens coming here to work. West Germany at the time at the time had a strict gasterarbeiter policy and once their usefulness was over they had to piss off. East Germany actually had a wall round it. These countries had some making up to do. Our histories do not really start from the same page.

Anyway what the the bloody point. there are never any sensible rebuttals just reworded insults. the self righteousness quotient of the Remainers is up there in the guzillions. the last time i remeber anything like this was when the trots stopped Callaghan from making a single campaign speech, so clever and superior was their knowledge. And of course it ended in tears - 18 years of Thatcher.

By frustrationg moderate opinion on this matter - you will usher in the period of Farage/ and Boris - -possibly the most right wing gang of bastards in the history of electable British politicians. Well done fellas. You victory is virtually complete. because it will come to an election and you will lose.

I never really understood those lines about Lester Maddox in rednecks by Rany Newman- till I saw Boris in extremis last week - 'he may be a fool, but he's our fool. If they think they're better than him . - they're wrong.'


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 08:31 AM

It may help you if you got the simple facts correct Al. Thatcher was in power for 18 years.

Almost every report into Brexit has said that the UK will be worse off out of the EU.

These reports come from many sources which have studied the probably outcome.

Reports from the Banking & Finance industry, the Medical industry, insurance industry etc etc have all said we will lose jobs, we will go into a recession, we do not have agreements in place to ensure food and medicine etc etc.

If I thought for one second that the UK would be better off I would vote for it, but the truth is we will damage ourselves. For decades.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 08:34 AM

Your opinions are neither particularly moderate nor particularly well-informed. In my opinion, of course. It makes for very frustrating exchanges with you at times.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 08:47 AM

You also think that east Europeans are more inclined towards criminality than others, Al. You were wrong about that as well.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 09:17 AM

"Let's put it another way "
Why not responds to the points made Al ?
You're beginning to behave like Theresa May did when she was faced with questions she couldn't answer
Are you sure you're not her in drag ?
The driving force behind Brexit was always stopping immigration - can you explain why that is not the case ?
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Iains
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 09:21 AM

Parliament to be prorogued tonight. Goody!
Wot abaht that bill that went stratospherically through the commons and Lords last week.
It is still but a bill I believe and the green grass wherein it lies is a growing longer by the day

OH happy happy days!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 09:30 AM

well seeing as I'm not well informed or moderate - let's see whose predictions come to pass. You clever well informed people or me.

not long to wait.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Rain Dog
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 09:41 AM

What some of the remainers here appear to forget is the fact that there has always been a sizeable number of people who, never wanted to join in the first place and then never wanted to remain back in 1975.

I don't think that has ever changed. For whatever reason some people have never liked the idea of being in the EU and they never will.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 10:05 AM

So why should they have had THEIR second referendum whilst we are denied one and denigrated for even suggesting it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 10:05 AM

What predictions are those Al? Those that every economic, comercial and political agency are making that there will be a lot of hardship or those of yours that when we leave the EU we will go back to the heady days of the 1960s where the British car industry was the envy of the world?

BTW - Playing the passive/aggressive victem does not suit you in the slightest.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 10:51 AM

"For whatever reason some people have never liked the idea of being in the EU and they never will."
Hey have had over forty years to protest or make their displeasure known in some way or other - not a murmer until someone promised to get rigd of the foreigners Rain Dog
Shows exactly how opposed they were, I would have thought
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Rain Dog
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 11:13 AM

Jim Carroll posted "Hey have had over forty years to protest or make their displeasure known in some way or other - not a murmer until someone promised to get rigd of the foreigners Rain Dog"

I don't know what part of the country you were living in Jim, but in the past 40 years I heard quite a few making their displeasure know. A fair amount of it in the media as well. There has ALWAYS been people who did not like being in the EU. I don't think that any of you can deny that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 11:36 AM

I don't see what it has to do with "like." It's a unfortunate aspect of this world that underdogs either stay underdogs or go under completely. Sadly, that usually means smaller or less wealthy or less developed nations, or all three of those. The EU is a relatively benign institution which operates mostly with a light touch, with occasional very unfortunate exceptions (before someone chucks Greece at me), but always insisting on the rule of law, on democratic government and on human rights. Smaller and weaker nations are assisted and bigger and stronger nations help. That has done a huge amount to preserve peace and stability. It suffers from the disease of gigantism, as do China, India, the US and as did the old Soviet Union. Institutions seem remote and are vulnerable to attacks from naysayers who claim incorrect and negative things, such as that the EU is undemocratic or is run by faceless bureaucrats. Those things are no more true of the EU than they are of any of those other giants and also of ruthless giant multinationals. You don't have to "like" the EU in order to acknowledge these things. Just two little words: nothing's perfect.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 11:41 AM

Not even you, Steve? :-D


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 12:02 PM

Well, maybe... ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 12:17 PM

"I don't know what part of the country you were living in Jim, but in the past 40 years I heard quite a few making their displeasure know."
The North of England which is now experiencing some of the worst effects of leaving Europe
My nephew, who works fro Westland, is wondering if he is going to have to learn how to stack shelves in Sainsbury's because of his chances of not being able to travel to Europe with his job, I should imagine
Want a list of all the North of England firms threatened with having to move their business elsewhere
Try responding to what is happening if you don't believe what the govenment have predicted will happen RD
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Rain Dog
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 12:29 PM

You ignored my point Jim. I said there has long been a sizeable and variable number of people here in the UK who did not want to join the EU or remain in the EU. I have no doubt that has been the case in the north as well. Labour was split on joining and during the referendum of 1975.

As I said earlier in one of these Brexit threads, I voted to remain in the EU. I don't think there will be any substantial benefit by us leaving. In the short term I think there will definitely be disadvantages to us leaving. If we do leave I doubt that I will live long enough to see if gain benefit from leaving.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 01:16 PM

"You ignored my point Jim."#
And you ignore miine - if they continued to hold that view they would have shown their displeasure before now - either at the polls or on the streets
Has this happened - not to my recollection
Only a minority of the British people voted to leave a papeer thin majority of those who voted
Surely, if those who were unhappy amounted to a serious number it would have shown up in the referendum
The referendum was sold on stopping immigration, not economic advantage and a better standard of life for the people - that's mob-rule populism which touches the fringes of hate-incitement illegality, not democracy
As I said, you're ducking and diving the fact that Brexit has failed the country miserably and will be even worse if things proceed as they are
So farr it's brought down two Prime Ministers and closed down the democratic voice of Britain - Parliament
Britain stands on the threshold of ending up with an unelected dictatorship because it now has a Prime Minister who has shown himself to be willing to break the law
Don't know about you but it scares the shit out of me
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 01:28 PM

What predictions are those Al?
I suppose if you don't listen you won't hear.

I predicted that the antics of the Remainers will result in the the most right wing government this country has ever seen.

Most of it is to do the unmannerly way you have conducted yourselves and and refusal to engage with the reality of the fact that there is no way we will ever make the EU or EEC work for us.

Whatever list you produce Jim - it will be a smaller list than the industries that the period of the EEC/EU has done for. Not small firms - firms which were the basis of economic life for thousands of communities and millions of people.

Sneer away. Smear away like Dave indenial because my friend had a shop that Eastern Ruropean gangs robbed - calls me a racist. Drags it up now, after how many years.

like I say - no point in discussing with people who have no answers for the unanswerable. Just smears and sneers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 01:36 PM

There must have always been a number ofof people who didn't want to join the EU or stay in it, Jim. The simple fact that UKIP gained enough ground to twist Cameron's arm is enough proof of that. Because people were not demonstrating on the streets or causing civil unrest is no proof that they did not exist. It may have been a coordinated effort by those who wanted out and their press lackeys but enough leavers existed to provide them with fertile ground to sow their seeds of dissent.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 01:47 PM

Wrong again, Al. I was referring to this

Subject: RE: BS: The Return!....of....New Labour!!!
From: Big Al Whittle - PM
Date: 15 May 15 - 05:18 AM

People in my home county Lincolnshire are very. upset at the influx of Eastern Europeans, and the lawlessness they have bought to towns like Boston.


As I said. You are wrong about East Europeans being lawless and you are wrong about the EU being the cause of all our ills. Excuse me if I take the rest of your specious arguments with a pinch of salt.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 02:02 PM

I live in Lincolnshire. A family of Turkish Muslims live across the road from me, and a polish family live two doors away. They work and presumably pay their taxes, their kids go to school, they keep their houses and gardens clean and tidy, they are friendly and sociable, they are good, law-abiding people getting on with making lives for themselves.

Over the past 14 years, I’ve had numerous hospital stays - probably amounting to a total of nine months - and I’d estimate that 60% of the NHS staff have been ‘foreigners’, and 60% of those were Eastern European. When someone is keeping you clean, comfortable and, in my case on several occasions, alive, you really don’t give a flying fuck where they were born.

I’m not ‘upset’ at all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 02:47 PM

Ducking and diving with your "must-bes again Al
Facts are facts and government predictions are what they are
Brexit is a fuck up incomaprable to anything that has happened soince the war
Shame on you
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 02:55 PM

Heh heh, just when you thought Johnson's term in office couldn't possibly get any worse ............. it has done.

"MPs have backed the Grieve motion requiring the release of some no-deal planning documents, and private messages from No 10 officials about prorogation, by 311 votes to 302 – a majority of nine."

I am slightly disappointed that only "some" of the documents will be released, although I reluctantly accept the reasoning behind this.

Sacrificial lamb come to mind for some reason!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 03:13 PM

This is plenty of Brexit threads - any more will be combined or closed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 03:25 PM

It's whether the people of the nation, y'know, all those knowledgeable leave voters, give a flying fart about any of this. They see big bluff Boris, shirt untidily tucked into his pants over his fat belly, and they see a hale fellow well met. A no-nonsense-sod the details-blokish bloke who hates Muslims, piccaninnies and women. Right up their alley, that lot. Then there's Jezza, ridiculed by four-fifths of the media and every public Tory and brainless, opportunistic Tory-lite LibDem who ever drew breath. Boris could stick out his fat arse and shit before the cameras and the thickie section of the public (the majority apparently) would love him for it. It worked for Trump. It'll work with this charlatan, unless we can come up with what the left are rubbish at, a cunning plan...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 06:29 PM

I believe Boris is a cult. At least that's how I think you spell it...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Sep 19 - 02:00 AM

it seems to be getting more unpredictable by the day, how can Johnson talk about democracy when he does undemocratic actions.I believe any other government other than the presenT conservatives or Farage, would get a better deal from Europe right now, I resent the fact that the UK has become the laughing stock of the world.I also think that some of the people whovoted leave would never have done so if they knew that this mess was going to happen


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Sep 19 - 03:53 AM

"I believe Boris is a cult. At least that's how I think you spell it..."
Seriously Dave - I'm afraid he is not
Johnson is now a part of the 'populist' mob who hold the key to success being used by politicians to overstep democracy (of sorts) by directly appealing to genuine fears and built in prejudices of the electorate
It hasn't been too successful since it was used to seize power in pre-war Germany, but the Brexit referendum reintroduced it into 'Free-World' politics bigtime - Trump came close on its heels and neo-fascist groups are using it all over Europe now to gain power and a degree of popular acceptance
We had a classic example of it here in Ireland when, in the Presidential election, a totally unknown (and very disgusting) Peter Casey deliberately targeted Travellers and leapt from nowhere to second place effortlessly

It would be a fatal mistake to put Johnson down as merely the talentless buffoon he obviously is - he is far more (less) than that - any moron ruthless enough to appeal to the people with a mob-message now has a major route to power

The really worrying aspect of all this is that when Powell made his 'Rivers of Blood' speech he was so much of an embarrassment to British politics that he was dropped like a lump of warm shit - now, the same message has given us Brexit
Johnson has been absorbed into the British political system and, in a matter of weeks has all but destroyed that system completely, and democracy along with it
Laughing and deriding Johnson is missing the point - that's what the bastard wants - he's a ****** showman

I'm afraid I feel the same about describing the electorate as stupid and gullible - they are most certainly not
They are people trying to survive in a rapidly deteriorating political situation, a major effect of which is a massively widening gap between haves and have nots
The facts of what is really happening, and why, is being deliberately withheld by the establishment and the lap-dog press
The referendum was typical of the dishonesty and distortion of what we are given in order for them to make decisions
We vote on what information we have at hand - if that information is incomplete or agenda-ised the decisions we make reflect that adversely
The people didn't vote for losing industries or threatened shortages or loss of jobs, or at least 20 years uncertainty for us and our children, but that's what we got
Please stop blaming that on the stupidity of the voters - that only plays into the bastard's hands
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Iains
Date: 10 Sep 19 - 04:01 AM

how can Johnson talk about democracy when he does undemocratic actions

What can possibly be undemocratic in attempting to deliver the majority decision of the people's referendum?

THe remainers hijack parliament, ram through legislation with zero accountability, all to frustrate the majority. How do you manage to explain that away as being democratic?

Needless to say you will not answer because there is no possible cogent justification or explanation that you can offer.
You are a noisy, belligerent, insulting minority that shows nothing but contempt for democracy!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: peteaberdeen
Date: 10 Sep 19 - 10:01 AM

seems clear to me that a majority of mps are doing their best to deliver a brexit that will not be too damaging for the UK. by doggedly insisting on going for a no-deal the ERG etc are making any brexit less likely. if we have to go back to the referendum it's obvious that the country is evenly split. we cannot ignore majority opinion for a deal that will not harm the country. those of us who are remainers could probably go along with that as long as workers rights/freedom of movement/ environmental protection are protected (personally i'm not too bothered about trade deals i want my children to be able to continue working in italy and estonia - or to return here- a return to some closed border nonsense is a huge loss of our rights, goodwill with our neighbours and a more peaceful world)

it's horrible what is happening to our country - there is no place for loud insults and threats and accusations. i may be able to continue in my job in a cumbria town if i keep my mouth shut - otherwise i am a 'traitor' and 'will end up in hospital with views like that'

sorry - strayed off my main point which was that there will never be a majority in this country for a no-deal brexit. it may suit the very wealthy and trump and putin obviously, but no-ne wants to support the risk to their livelihood, security, human rights - or continual argument. our mps are trying their best to support a more positive outcome (at last) good luck to them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Sep 19 - 11:17 AM

What strikes me over and over again is the comparison between to two warring factions - the dignity and adherence to common sense and democracy of those opposing this travesty of a Government, and the lying, distorting bullying thuggery of the Johnsonites who pretend to acting on the will of the same people they have previously referred to as "The Enemy Within" for refusing to do as they are told
I can remember one of their supporters here describing attempts to rehouse survivors of a horrendous London fire in unused private property as "theft", indicating that he would rather see them sleeping rough than infringe sacred property rights.
That's how deep these people's respect for the opinions of the people are when they can't be used for profiteering
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Sep 19 - 11:49 AM

Incidentally
There iare signs of a marked increase in sectarian violence taking place in the Six Counties as a result of the controversy over Brexit at present - the main cause being the threat of a hard border.
This is echoed on the Mainland with a riot instigated by sectarian Loyalists in Glasgow a few weeks ago - if these bastards don't get their fingers out, 'Happy Days really will be Here Again'
Meanwhile, back at the Downing Street ranch, the DUP with its history of Sectarianism and its links with Paramilitarism, heve been invited to take part in 'intense and extensive discussion' on leaving Europe
Did someone mention "Contempt for Democracy" - I could have sworn they did ?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Iains
Date: 10 Sep 19 - 12:01 PM

"Contempt for Democracy" Yes you have, have you not?
In a democracy the majority vote wins. The majority voted very clearly to leave the EU. A FACT! What part of that simple statement can you not understand or accept. Your posturing is simply ridiculous. As you no longer have a vote in the UK I fail to understand why you continue to inflict your corrosive opinions on us. You cannot influence outcomes anymore so why continue to babble?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Sep 19 - 12:41 PM

"so why continue to babble?"
Basically to draw out the frustrated and increasing violence your postings are beginning to display in order to show the true face of the undemocratic nature of this Government and of Brexit itself
If you can't conduct yourself without insulting and abusing those who disagree with you I suggest you remove yourself until you can
JIm Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Sep 19 - 12:51 PM

How many times, Jim... :-(


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: peteaberdeen
Date: 10 Sep 19 - 12:54 PM

brexiteers who are convinced that there is a majority for a no-deal brexit would be the loudest advocates for a new referendum. if they were confident, they would. but as they aren't they try to deflect attention from the weakness of the argument and lack of a coherent plan by bashing away at the keyboard insulting or attacking MPs with principles and a bit of intelligence, while aggressively shouting down or attacking more thoughtful people at street/pub level. in my experience. i used to feel comfortable in my local pub. where, incidentally, a common narrative to the question of the day is to blame the irish (and jeremy corbyn and tony bliar for talking to them back in the day) for'stopping us getting our brexit'


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Sep 19 - 01:11 PM

"How many times, Jim... :-( "
As many times it takes to put an end to this abusive and threatenign vomit Steve :-(
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Sep 19 - 01:14 PM

I'm sorry you don't agree with that, but I was merely stating fact. People are upset about that very subject - to such an extent that comment on the subject has been banned on the Boston facebook page. Check it out if you think I'm bullshitting you.

A fact, despite its unpalatable nature, remains a fact.

Would you prefer it if I'd said people were deleriosly fucking happy because of the increase in lawlessness and its been a marvellous cross cultural experience for those getting robbed?

Okay, I'll say that.

Boris is a cult - surely a missprint!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Iains
Date: 10 Sep 19 - 01:41 PM

There are still those posting here whose stance defies all logic and maintain the losers won. Is there no limit to their delusions.

brexiteers who are convinced that there is a majority for a no-deal brexit would be the loudest advocates for a new referendum
Why would that be?
WE had a referendum, we decided to leave, we wait for the government to obey the instructions of the majority of the electorate.
This is not a TV program, there are no action replays because you, in your arrogance, think voters got it wrong the first time around.

Your perpetual bleating is getting very tedious. You lost. Get over it.

Will we cross into the promised land in November, or will the rebellious remainiac knaves continue to frustrate the will of the majority? Have Cummings and Baldeick hatched a cunning plan?

Cromwell had the right idea. One step beyond proroguing


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Sep 19 - 02:37 PM

Why not try my technique, Jim? I see his "name" (who knows...) at the top of a post and I DON'T READ THE POST. Been doing that now for two or three weeks. In my head, he's simply not here. It's liberating, like a breath of fresh air, I promise. Go on, give it a whirl!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Sep 19 - 03:00 PM

In my opinion, if he's there, why not use him occasionally as a prime example of the extremists who support Brexit
He's like offensive graffitti - if you cant remove it, piss against it so people notice how bad it smells
Doesn't help to make a n issue of it
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Sep 19 - 03:41 PM

Totally missing the point, Al. You are repeating the lie that east Europeans are more lawless than "us decent British". The facts do not bear that out. Just like the facts do not bear out your nonsense about the EU causing the demise of the car industry. Your comments do bear out Jim's contention that brexit and racism are inexorably linked though.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Iains
Date: 10 Sep 19 - 04:34 PM

The only reason shaw does not respond is because his only counter arguments are based on drivelling dogma regurgitated from the Guardian.
No logic, no facts, no links, no sense!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Sep 19 - 04:41 PM

Avery small majority voted to leave, however none of those people have been asked whether they want to leave with or without a deal that is undemocratic


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 10 Sep 19 - 05:58 PM

Re Brexit & Westminster, you born-&-breds could lower your pride & let The Repatriate takeover: born in Manchester the day we won the FIFA World Cup, I was very highly trained in Australia; & if ever a nation needed a benevolent dictator for a few years... http://walkaboutsverse.blogspot.com/


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Sep 19 - 07:10 PM

Not even a real majority, Dick, just 38% of the electorate in fact. We are allowing just over a third of the electorate, and a quarter of the population, to drag us out of the EU. Long before the referendum vote I was arguing that the bar for leave was set way too low. My view was that two-thirds of a minimum turnout of 75% would have been appropriate. It wasn't like a general election, which we can reverse after a few years. It was, in effect, an irrevocable decision to end a 47-year status quo. Allowing a simple majority to do that was totally inappropriate. The referendum was fatally skewed in favour of leave. Add to that, as you imply, that the campaign was mostly heat without light which made it difficult for everyone to avoid being uninformed and misinformed, and we end up with democracy trashed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Sep 19 - 07:40 PM

There's a good discussion about the need for a supermajority (high bar) for important and irrevocable policy changes put to referendums on the website politics.stackexchange.com entitled "Why was the Brexit referendum conducted as a simple majority vote?" No ranting, no raving, no yah-boo-suck you lost, just rational discussion on a tightly-moderated board (and not everyone there agrees with me either). This may not be blue but it's still a sort of link.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Sep 19 - 10:53 PM

Good points Steve, the other point about Democracy[ WHEN IT WORKS WELL] is that it should be able to take in to account changing situations
Democracy must be built through open societies that share information. When there is information, there is enlightenment. When there is debate, there are solutions. When there is no sharing of power, no rule of law, no accountability, there is abuse, corruption, subjugation and indignation. Atifete Jahjaga


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Iains
Date: 11 Sep 19 - 03:51 AM

Hilarious to see the quiet valiant Brexiteer MAJORITY labelled as extremists by Carroll.

Mr Goebbels has done a real number on you!
"Accuse the other side of that which you are guilty" This should seem very familiar to you. It is the only tactic you have.
But the majority can see straight through it and recognize it for the lie that it is.




While the remainer rats fight, as in a sack, the great believer continues to scheme. 'Who Dares Wins' they say. We shall see!

https://reaction.life/what-if-dominic-cummings-is-right/


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Sep 19 - 05:56 AM

One wonders whether the medical shortages predicted by Yellowhammer will include those for the treatment of the latest epidemic sweeping Britain - Brhysteria


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Iains
Date: 12 Sep 19 - 04:39 AM

One wonders whether the medical shortages predicted by Yellowhammer will include those for the treatment of the latest epidemic sweeping Britain - Brhysteria

I do like to see a bit of balance

https://www.pgeu.eu/medicine-shortages/
https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/human-regulatory/post-authorisation/availability-medicines
https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/human-regulatory/post-authorisation/availability-medicines/shortages-catalogue

This has of course been pointed out previously but remainiacs do like to exhibit selective amnesia if it enables a boost to project fear.

I suspect they read a Gruniard article on the problem where EU was misspelt as UK


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Subject: BS: revoking article 50
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Sep 19 - 04:49 AM

if johnson revokes article 50 and then calls an election, if he wins the election with a majority, he could, then trigger article 50 again , then he can possibly leave the next day?, because the extension does not have a minimium limit. he would not have to say for two years because the 2 years is apparently a maximum time.
i mention this because this is just the machiavellian type of trick johnson might try to pull


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Sep 19 - 04:55 AM

I live next door to Eastern Europeans, they are a decent well behaved family. They are my friends.

My old school friend's store got robbed continually by eastern european gangs. the police were totally overwhelmed by the situation, in atown where my Dad was a cop when I was a kid, and could keep the streets safe. The situation had deteriorated.

Those are simply the facts I reported and in your opinion gave you the right to call me a racist.

I didn't call you anything - despite the provocation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 19 - 05:08 AM

It seems to me that appealing against a judgement making the closure of Parliament illegal at a time when all of us, at home or away, needs to heal the devastation caused by Brexit is satotal betrayal of everything Parliamentary Democracy claims to stand for
No matter what Loord Haw-Haw drags up, Yellowhammer (what we have been allowed to see of it) has exposed a nightmare situation of cuts, shortages and civil disorder
The twats who closed Perlient and his those facts for so long, are not going to do anything about it even if they wanted to, which is doubtful and they have locked those who might be able to out so they can't do what they were elected too do
This is now an act of treason and should be punished as such
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Sep 19 - 05:13 AM

The simple fact is that you said, on 15 May 15 at 05:18 AM,

People in my home county Lincolnshire are very. upset at the influx of Eastern Europeans, and the lawlessness they have bought to towns like Boston.

There is no way to interpret that as anything other than Eastern Europeans have brought lawlessness to these towns. No ifs or buts. By repeating that lie you are perpetuating the myth that East Europeans are causing more crime than the indigenous population. The only word for that is racist.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Sep 19 - 05:13 AM

Al, a polite request - when you’re addressing an individual whose last post was several days previously, would you mind indicating in your post which individual you’re addressing please? It’s very confusing when you simply address your target as ‘You’. ‘You’ and ‘Your’ could refer to anyone.

Thanks in advance.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 19 - 06:00 AM

THE JUNTA'S RESPECT FOR THE BRITISH PEOPLE WRIT LARGE
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 12 Sep 19 - 06:07 AM

Hi guys, just for reference, is there a policy on this thread just to ignore the troll mouthpiece? Pity this forum does not have a block/ignore feature by which its posts won't show up under our log ins. Maybe something for the tech experts to look at?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 19 - 07:08 AM

"is there a policy on this thread just to ignore the troll mouthpiece? "
Ignore the goose-stepping clown - the Mods have described him as a troll and told us to do so ("like a fart", as one put it so eloquently)
Beyond me why he has to be tolerated at all after five years of his shit, but "Mod moves in a mysterious way" as they say
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Sep 19 - 07:10 AM

”Hi guys, just for reference, is there a policy on this thread just to ignore the troll mouthpiece? Pity this forum does not have a block/ignore feature by which its posts won't show up under our log ins. Maybe something for the tech experts to look at?”

Yes SPB, there is - it's set out in ‘FAQ’ under ‘Etiquette and Advice - Dealing with Flamers and Trolls’...I’m not c&p-ing it here as it's fairly lengthy, but it’s easy to look up.

Also, we’re not supposed to discuss each other, or a thread of itself.

Most of us have adopted a policy of ignoring the resident troll, it’s a pity the remaining two or three who steadfastly continue to invite his nonsense don’t do the same.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Sep 19 - 07:24 AM

Okay - lets just leave it - theres a bloke in manchester who thinks I'm a racist, cos I listen to my old school friends and he lives at the other side of the country and doesn't give a shit about what they have to say.

he knows better what going on - even though he's never been there - never talked to any of the people involved.

not interested.

Reallly like allthe remainers. just totally disinterested and disbelieving of everything a large part of the population are saying.

Communication is not going to happen. let's accept the fact.

Lucky we still have the vote.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Sep 19 - 07:27 AM

100


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Sep 19 - 07:44 AM

Do you believe that East Europeans are lawless then, Al? Dead simple question. Nothing to do with what people have said or where anyone lives. A simple yes or no will suffice.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 19 - 08:13 AM

"is there a policy on this thread just to ignore the troll mouthpiece? "
A large part of the country have been shown to be racist Al - between a quarter and a third of them
You, like Johnson, Moogie and Gove, are refusing to respond what is actually happening and are hiding behind the people to help you ignore the mess Britain is now in and likely to be in deeper and for a long time
You dismiss the facts as just facts - unimportant
I really did think better of you
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Iains
Date: 12 Sep 19 - 09:41 AM

The Belfast High Court dismisses no-deal Brexit challenge.

Miller's case fails because Parliament demonstrates it can act quickly when minded too.Hence totally undermining the argument that Parliament needed more time(as if 3 years is not long enough.) e.g. The speed last week with which a bill was passed to cripple the freedom of action of the PM.

I do enjoy seeing factual content totally rebutting your asinine arguments labelled as trolling.I see you call all brexiteers racists as well. You all really need to learn the correct meanings of words and expand your vocabularies beyond the gutter.
When all you can produce is nonstop criticisms and insults it is clear you have no sensible arguments.You know what they say:You are on target when the flak gets thickest! For the last three years you and your ilk have faithfully followed the game plan designed by Goebbels. BUT! We can all see through it. No matter how much noise you make, or how many posts you manage to get deleted, you are a minority and you lost the referendum. Yet you continue, in your arrogance, to act as though you won.
I still await the day you justify your insults and manage to refute my arguments.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Sep 19 - 10:11 AM

I know I shouldn't really but there are times when the temptation is too great.

It's working a treat chaps. Keep it up and I think we will witness the online equivalent of apoplexy before long :-D


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 19 - 10:37 AM

"It's working a treat chaps"
'Tis indeed, though I think your missing the permanent apoplexy
A bit like when Pat was taken to see Lucia Di Lammermoor and was asked, "What did you think of the mad scene?"
"What mad scene?", she asked
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Sep 19 - 10:50 AM

Just as a general point, it might be a good idea if we stopped actually naming dead Nazis in posts criticising other forum users. As Dick Gaughan said on his sadly-demised website, in his advice to forum users, it's fine to call living people Nazis - as long as they actually ARE Nazis. On the whole, the practice gets us nowhere. Just a thought.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 Sep 19 - 11:12 AM

Anyone got any GOOD news about Brexit itself.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Iains
Date: 12 Sep 19 - 12:05 PM

It is nice to see our proposed 35 billion contribution being put to good use. In Poland The retirement age has been brought back to 65 years of age, for men and 60 years, of age, for women. The previous government had introduced a phased increase of the retirement age to 67 years by 2020 for men and by 2040 for women.
Meanwhile back in Blighty we have the lowest pension in Europe and work the longest to get it

IN 2017 Britain was the second largest contributor to the EU and Poland the largest beneficiary(by a country mile)Source

The above is even more blatant misuse of funds than the CAP.
Embarrassing things facts.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Sep 19 - 12:09 PM

if johnson revokes article 50 and then calls an election, if he wins the election with a majority, he could, then trigger article 50 again , then he can possibly leave the next day?, because the extension does not have a minimium limit. he would not have to say for two years because the 2 years is apparently a maximum time.
i mention this because this is just the machiavellian type of trick johnson might try to pull


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Sep 19 - 12:13 PM

I've just had a deja vu...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 19 - 12:21 PM

" it might be a good idea if we stopped actually naming dead Nazis in posts criticising other forum users."
Tend to agree Steve, after all, those guys aren't around any more to defend themselves from such comparisons :-)
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Sep 19 - 12:56 PM

These are the kind of people the Leavers have put their shirts on.

And they wonder why we think they’ve let themselves be conned....


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Sep 19 - 02:37 PM

Jays - don't they look at hom behind bars Bacckie
Fingers crossed
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Sep 19 - 06:42 AM

Why be told what to do by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Sep 19 - 09:20 AM

One of the best, and most unexpected analyses of Brexit I heave come across so far
Cor blimey - you could’a knocked me dahn wiv a fevver
Jim Carroll

Irish Times, this morning

HISTORIAN SAYS BREXIT BEING DRIVEN BY A ‘CRAZY NOSTALGIA’ FOR THE PAST
Max Hastings says those keen to exit E.U. need to realise that Britain is no longer important
Ronan McGreevy

Max Hastings, a former newspaper editor and now a historian, accused Boris Johnson and his government of being ‘completely indifferent’ to the fate of Northern Ireland in the Brexit debate..
Britain is not an important country any more and Brexit is being driven by an “almost crazy nostalgia” for the past, the historian Max Hastings has said.
Mr Hastings, who specialises in military history, said Brexiteers were leading “a dash for the past” for Britain in the belief that the country was somehow better before.
“They think that they can rebuild the Britain of the past and that will be great for Britain. I don’t share that view at all,” he said.
“Britain is not an important country any more and we are going to find it difficult. I never suffer from nostalgia. I never kidded myself that it was better to live in the second World War or to live in the time of Downton Abbey. ”
Mr Hastings is a former editor of The Daily Telegraph newspaper and was Boris Johnson’s editor when the now British prime minister was its Brussels correspondent. He said his former newspaper, which supports Mr Johnson, and others in the Brexit-backing press have allowed their papers to act “recklessly and irresponsibly” when it comes to the issue of the UK leaving the EU.
He told RTÉ’s Today with Seán O’Rourke programme that he had not changed his view that Mr Johnson was “wholly unfit” to be prime minister.

‘Falsehoods’
“Boris Johnson is peddling a budget of falsehoods and unfulfillable promises which I fear will lead us into terrible trouble,” Mr Hastings added.
“I keep hoping for the sake of our poor country that things would turn out better than I feared they would, but so far there is not much evidence of it.”
In his early days as a reporter, Mr Hastings was based as a correspondent in Northern Ireland.
He accused Mr Johnson and his government of being “completely indifferent” to the fate of Northern Ireland and the British government’s policy towards the North is being driven by “sheer insouciance and carelessness”.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Iains
Date: 13 Sep 19 - 09:45 AM

Mr Hastings posts but an opinion with zero facts to back up his assertions(like someone else who posts with monotonous regularity here)

Interesting finding in the Belfast court case trying to scupper brexit.

    “Neither NIA 1998 nor the international treaty scheduled to the Belfast Agreement (or, for that matter, the Agreement itself) has the effect in law of requiring the continued membership of the EU on the part of the UK. In his judgement Lord Justice McCloskey thoroughly slapped down the spurious arguments that the Belfast (Good Friday) Agreement hinges on membership of the European Union

    The Supreme Court was alert to this in Miller: Furthermore, none of the sources mentioned subjects the EU 27 to conclude an Article 50 Withdrawal Agreement in any particular terms.”

    “Once again, neither the Belfast Agreement nor this suite of provisions was predicated on the basis that UK membership of the EU would continue forever. Neither of them can be construed as requiring a customs Union or continued regulatory alignment. More fundamentally, there is no sufficient evidential foundation for the incompatibility assert"ed. There is no suggestion that the incompatibility has already materialised”..............
" Considered in their totality they point inexorably to the conclusion that these cases trespass upon the prohibited domain of the non-justiciable."

That finding has left egg on more than a few faces.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Raggytash
Date: 13 Sep 19 - 01:46 PM

Selective copy and paste with no link.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Sep 19 - 01:56 PM

Guido - who the hell do you think - his intelligence doesn't reach beyond that
In fact it is a typical distortion of the truth
The verdict was that it was political situation - not oe that could be decided legally
It was pretty much in line with the situation described by the woman legal expert of last night's interesting 'Question Time'
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Sep 19 - 02:10 PM

I do wish you chaps would stop it. All that happens when you kick shit is that it spreads it about, causes a stink and makes a mess of your shoes!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Sep 19 - 02:29 PM

"I do wish you chaps would stop it."
Dave
With resprcy, I've been intending to comment alll day on last night's programme and how it impinged on this decision, which is what I did
I have no problem whatever helping Rag to learn the information (sic) put up was strate from the ling pen of our extremist right wing blogger with direct links to the British National Party
The more people know where this shite is coming from, the batter
Stop making an issue of it - you're drawing more attention to him than anybody else has
More later, when I've washed up
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Iains
Date: 13 Sep 19 - 02:50 PM

The fact that it is that Guido tends to be ahead of the mainstream on things political because he has many feeds from inside Westminster. The cabal have yet to find any lies or misrepresentation on his site
but to prevent further nonsense, I will take great delight in giving you some links, if only to highlight the stupidity of some of your remarks.

https://www.thejournal.ie/belfast-case-boris-johnson-4805883-Sep2019/
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/12/northern-irish-court-dismisses-case-against-no-deal-brexit

https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/uk-regions/northern-ireland/news/106487/northern-ireland-court-throws-out-claim-no-deal

https://www.irishlegal.com/article/high-court-three-challenges-to-brexit-strategy-found-non-justiciable

Strange the BBC thinks it not worthy of reporting, but like many items I post it goes against the narrative.

One moderator asks I supply links!
Another moderator deletes many of my posts containing links!
Tis a funny old world!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Sep 19 - 03:13 PM

I wasn't looking forward to last night's 'Question Time' - always foung Norwich a tad redneck - what a pleasant surprise
A number of the audience appeared a bit fed up with Brainless Boris's idiocy, but there was not a single voice in favour of what the Government were doing
Fiona Bruce (much better than Dimbleby) won my heart forever when, after one questioner trying his best to get an answer from the Brexiteer businessman about Brainless Boris's criminal behaviour, she said - "Leave it at that - you're not going to get anything from him - take it from me"
The two Brexers were humiliated by the other speakers hands down - wonderful stuff
The DUP sectarian has the nerve to deny that the bung they were given wasn't to buy their votes (maybe he had an eye on another one

The icing on the cake was when not one of the audience supported thuggish wife beater Boycott's being on the Honours list - not one !!

I halw wished one would, explaining that it might help expose the fact that these honours are meaningless back-slaps for the Hons and Debs - from the wealth to the wealthy
Enjoyable night (with Rush to look forward to)
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Sep 19 - 06:02 PM

It wouldn't, in my opinion, be too much of a stretch to say that, but for Jim and Raggytash, Iains would be long gone.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: peteaberdeen
Date: 14 Sep 19 - 02:28 AM

if it hadn't been for cameron he wouldn't have been here at all. mind you , nor would we. the whole of the uk dragged into this stupid tory argument. we are all to blame for getting involved. even if the tory party implode we will all still be stuck in the arguments for years - all remainers, squabbling. given that this is our inescapable fate we must learn how to do it with a lot more respect, wit, compassion and 'who-gives-a- fuck-anyway' than we have managed so far


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Iains
Date: 14 Sep 19 - 03:22 AM

the whole of the uk dragged into this stupid tory argument.
Nice try at deflection but simply not true, as you know.

Howsabout this?
Blair:( 20 April 2004)
"The British people will have the final say on the proposed EU constitutional treaty in a referendum."

Labour election manifesto in 2005.Blair promises: "We will put it [the constitution] to the British people in a referendum.

He reneged on the deal as did the Broon.

Labour promised twice to have a referendum but did not follow through.
To argue it is purely a Tory problem is obviously nonsense.
Terrible things FACTS! This is the same Labour party demanding an election constantly over the last two years and when offered one twice
immediately ran away.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Sep 19 - 03:29 AM

I note that the ghastly Cameron is blaming Johnson and Gove for, well, just about everything...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Sep 19 - 03:38 AM

I agree with Steve's comment of 13 Sep 19 - 06:02 PM, Jim.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Sep 19 - 04:00 AM

Let's move on
I've taken to watching late night Sky News programmes lately and I watched an interesting debate on Brexit last night which was chaired by the the historian on Question time
It made me realise what a depressingly divided and damaged country my late home has now become - I can't see my wanting to ever visit it again
People are now openly lying about everything
So many people seem to be ignoring the dangerous use which is being made of Populism which is swinging Britain further and further into the arms of the Extreme right
Not one speaker dealt with the rise of racism because of its use in the election - even the decent ones are talking about the paper thin majority ad 'democratic', which it most certainly was not
One twat claimed the referendum a "massive majority in favour of leaving" hen it was a paper-thin anomaly which even Farage never expected - even the decent members of the debate didn't challenge him
What's happening to Britain - isn't it enough that the politicians are the laughing stock of the Planet without the rest becoming so ?

"Iains would be long gone."
Dream on Steve - he has vomited his filth on this forum far longer than we
became the sole commenters on his behaviour
Anybody as impervious to the contempt he has earned with his extreme and insulting behaviour as long as he has been, is not going to move off, and the Mods are obviously going to do nothing to clean up this forum
If he behaves in Staffordshire as he does here, I doubt if he has anybody to talk to there - we are all he has - work it out for yourself
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Sep 19 - 04:10 AM

I repeat my previous comment.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: peteaberdeen
Date: 14 Sep 19 - 04:20 AM

since WW2 there has been a general consensus in the west to unite, to make treaties and attempt to keep the peace and keep the trade flowing, for growth and prosperity - for the already wealthy, obviously. this capitalist version of 'progress' allows obscenities like grinding poverty in the south, like the proxy wars we fight in poor countries, like the gross exploitation in poor countries to provide us with the shit we feel we need to validate our existence. and of course w must spend countless trillions of dollars on weapons of war and expand the reach of the (mostly us) military. we spend far more weapons than we need to solve all the problems of health, education and security for everyone on the planet. (this is all one with the climate emergency we now face as the above has moved on to a destruction of the planet led by crazed neo liberal and fascist leaders but that is probably an argument for another thread)

my old man read the daily mail for maybe 75 years til he died at 93 a couple of years back. it rotted his mind. he used to cut pictures out of, say diane abbott getting out of a car, cherie blair looking a mess or harriet harman stealing our taxes to show us. he couldn't understand why we weren't impressed, as all his family were of a far more positive/feminist/green/left mindset. anyway, like many of us he was completely sucked into this adversarial, PMQs interpretation of politics where a politician's appearance meant everything - all explained for him through the lens of the daily mail. he was an old soldier who never fought in the war but kept an abiding distrust of foreigners and was an instinctive brexiteer. of course, he voted to leave though lied to his family about where none of his 6 grandkids had any time for that shit as they are surrounded by friends and partners from many parts of the world. they are also aware of the importance of unity and peace and the environment as the only really important things in these dangerous times. 'our house is on fire but most of us aren't bothered' - someone else will fix it.

(to attempt to return to the point) here in the uk the european question has split the tories since thatcher times. occasionally grubby little fascists like farage and various bnp/edl/nationalist groups try to divide us and make the situation worse. cameron's crime (and blair too as Iain says above) was to fail to deal with these depressing messages from the far right other than by trying to appease them with a referendum. our politicians have consistently apologised for immigration rather than celebrated it; they have supported war rather than fought for peace; they have been intensely comfortable with the very wealthy rather than pursue equality; they have messed about (eg PFI) with our precious public services and are now actively trashing them. to add insult to injury when the banks crashed they were bailed out with public money. by - ffs- a labour government.

we are where we are now - in a mess. and really the petty squabbles about brexit - whose fault it is? - are really silly and the sort of thing that would have exercised my dad if he wasn't reading about the vegetables on corbyn's allotment or whether megan markle was killing the royal family. my opinion is that our faults on a larger scale i went on about above are what has caused brexit - that and our leaders complete failure to offer a more positive vision for our country and the planet.

while we can all see that johnson/corbyn/trump/gove is a dick. does it really matter? (though mogg/IDS/farage are on a different level of hideousness altogether) - shouldn't we be looking away from this horror show to a more interesting, hopeful and colourful future. (with greta thunberg, caroline lucas, chris packham, alexandria orcasia-cortez, naomi klein etc) it's going to be a hard fight but we may have a chance if us old gits could manage to die off before we have finished our job of trashing the planet entirely.

sorry for going on - i just woke up this morning read some naomi klein and thought - i've been getting really bored and pissed off with the whole brexit thing but it doesn't really matter much - far more important to look at the poverty in this country and everywhere and fight climate change - green new deal is the only way, innit?


i got a bit


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Sep 19 - 04:21 AM

"I repeat my previous comment."
Don't bother Dave and stop prolonging giving him the attention you keep sayin he wants
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Sep 19 - 04:41 AM

So, what you mean, Jim, is that everyone should stop discussing it apart from you and after you have had the last word? Fair enough. Feel free to carry on dancing to his tune. No skin off my nose but we all know who's responses are feeding his need. Have the last word. I guess I need to ignore both sides of the exchanges rather than just one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Sep 19 - 04:53 AM

Well it is a brexit thread, Pete, but I fully share your sentiments. Every day I wake up to this continuing insanity.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Sep 19 - 05:10 AM

"So, what you mean, Jim, is that everyone should stop discussing it apart from you "
Ill make a donation to a named charity if you can point out where I have entered int discussion with him - I use his contradictory vicious idiocy to underline his stupidity and the stupidity of Brexit - no more
If the mods are going to put up with their being described as "politically biased" and their deleting his offensive postings as "censorship" and on occasion "fascist" he is with us as long as the mods decide they want him here
We need to face that fact ans deal with it as best we can
I'm not prepared to stay silent while he uses threads like this as a propaganda hate site sor Tommy Robinson and his brother-in- hate, Paul Staines - sorry
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Iains
Date: 14 Sep 19 - 05:48 AM

Good to see the usual idiocy at play. Attack the messenger because the message is unassailable.
Classic argumentum ad hominem

It is all you remainiacs have to fight with!

Here again for your delectation and delight are some self evident truths, namely we brexiteers won the referendum and expect to see it delivered.
Leave         17,410,742         51.89%
Remain         16,141,241         48.11%

51.89 TRUMPs 48.11 Only one vote more is required in a democracy.

After all Fiona Onasanya, the former jailbird, wearing an ankle tag, voted against a No Deal Brexit, which lost by one vote. Her vote.’
Should that vote be retaken, did she breach her curfew by voting, should we let the people decide?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Sep 19 - 06:30 AM

I don't know how to be plainer, Jim. First, he can't use this as a hate propaganda site because if nobody looks at it it isn't very good propaganda. I'm guessing that no more than three or four people here ever read his posts. I'm not one of them any more. Now let's predict what will happen if:

Nobody reads his posts

Nobody mentions him

Nobody falls into the trap of seeming to be responding to any point in his posts

Nobody mentions the mods in the context of his posts

Nobody falls into the trap of responding to his occasional "seemingly-reasonable" posts (he always reverts to type within minutes).

See what I did at 03.29. I followed his post as quickly as I could with something entirely unconnected. That's the way to show him that we are blanking him. In the short term he'll become even more shrill, even more neurotic, even more insulting and even more irrational than he is now. Let it all sail on by. One of two things will then happen: he'll get sick of talking to himself and evaporate away, or the mods will see how well we've isolated him and strike him out. It's all about outcomes, Jim, outcomes.

This will be followed by a silly ranting post from him. Well, now that I've said that, it might not happen. But this is the very last time I'm going to refer to him in any way at all. Let him stew, Jim. His idiocy is actually on display to very few people, and if you let it rile you then it makes you a sucker. I only said "if" there, note. I've tried, dammit, I've tried. On this topic, it's over and out from me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Sep 19 - 06:33 AM

"Staines has four alcohol-related convictions including two for drink driving. In 2002, Staines was banned from driving for 12 months for drink driving. ... He was banned from driving for three years, as well as being given an 18-month supervision order and wearing an electronic tag for three months."
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Sep 19 - 06:55 AM

Sorry lads
The sheer imbecility of accusing someone of criminality and defending a fourfold criminal in the same posting was really too good an opportunity to miss
Won't happen again
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Iains
Date: 14 Sep 19 - 10:13 AM

I did not accuse Fiona Onasanya of criminality, it was the Crown Prosecution Service that brought the prosecution. Onasanya was found guilty on 19 December 2018 of perverting the course of justice for lying to police to avoid being prosecuted for speeding. She unsuccessfully sought to secure permission to appeal the conviction. Her expulsion from the Labour Party, effective in December 2018, was announced in January 2019. On 29 January 2019 she was sentenced to three months in prison. She was removed from office on 1 May 2019 after a successful recall petition, automatically triggered in cases of a custodial sentence of a year or less, under the Recall of MPs Act 2015, prompting a by-election, making her the first MP to lose their seat through this process.
On 12 March 2019, Onasanya voted against the Government's Brexit withdrawal agreement, leading to its defeat in the second "meaningful vote". This was reported to be her first vote in the House of Commons since her release from prison and the first occasion that a MP voted while wearing an electronic tag
It always is useful to check your facts, lest you appear stupid.

The remainder of your drivel is simply attacking the messenger rather than the message. Do you not all get bored by such puerile activities.
Here is something Guido posted that will not make the headlines:
Labour's Anti-Semitic conference fringes Tsk, tsk!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Raggytash
Date: 14 Sep 19 - 10:57 AM

In my defence Steve, I was making an observation not commenting on what was posted or replying to it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Sep 19 - 11:55 AM

As long as we all know what to do. Enough's enough, eh?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Iains
Date: 14 Sep 19 - 01:33 PM

Rats in a sack boyos, you are behaving like rats in a sack!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Sep 19 - 02:20 PM

Another Tory joins the Tories - oops, sorry, I mean the LibDems...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Sep 19 - 02:55 PM

"I was making an observation not commenting on what was posted or replying to it."
Me too
It seems a lost opportunity to waste such perpetual idiocy
Otherwise I agree totally with the Mod who advised that we "treat it like a fart"
Occasionally I like to reprimand my fart when it has been a particularly bad one

One for the joke thread
Trump was attending a Royal dinner at Buck House when Madge lets off a skirt-lifter of a fart
A gentleman a few seats down the table stood up hurriedly, apologised profusely and quickly walked out of the room
Trump whispered (loudly) to his neighbour, "What's with him - she dropped it?"
He was told, on occasions such as this, a gentleman always takes responsibility for such mishaps".
Five minutes later Madge drops another one.
Trump stands up and says, "It's OK ma-am - this one's on me"
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Iains
Date: 15 Sep 19 - 08:08 AM

A truly shocking indictment of the Mother of all Parliaments.
Brought about directly by the rogue speaker and those that cannot accept the referendum result


Comres poll findings.
The poll showed that Remain voters were fed up with MPs, with 73 percent of them saying Parliament is in desperate need of reform, compared to 85 percent of Leavers.
The results also show that 73 percent of all voters believe that Parliament does not attract the brightest and best, and that as an institution it puts political point-scoring above the interests of the country.

“To say that Parliament is in desperate need of an overhaul is a gross understatement,” said ComRes’s chairman Andrew Hawkins.


In a boost to Boris Johnson, 59 percent agreed there should be an election if the Labour/Remainer “surrender bill” to force another extension of EU membership succeeds.
In the week that John Bercow announced he is to step down as Speaker, the findings are a damning indictment of his decade-long tenure and confirm that the divide between Parliament and the people is at crisis point.

It follows a shambolic end to Parliament which saw anti-Brexit MPs singing songs and waving placards in the chamber.

Last week, BBC Question Time audience member Charlie Neil received an ovation when he told panellists: “You’ve had three years and three months, and you’ve done nothing but argue among yourselves like little kids.

“You’ve got no respect for each other and you’ve got no respect for the British people.
Just go away.”

ComRes’s Mr Hawkins said that the disillusionment was sparked by Parliament’s failure to deal with those trying the thwart the 2016 Brexit result.

Remainiacs would happily trash democracy rather than accept the very clear fact that they lost the referedum.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Sep 19 - 08:20 AM

Liberal Democrats at thei Conference are planning to scrap leaving Euope indefinitely without a Second Referendum and concentrate of repairing the damage done by this fuck up

David Cameron has revealed that Borish Johnson has never supported Brexit but decided it was a way of repairing his pathetic image
The fluttering sound of chickens coming home to roost is becoming deafening
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Sep 19 - 01:53 PM

Camerons confessions seem to have sent the Klarts straight into the fan
Thieves falling ut - all great stuff - beats Downton Abbey any day
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Sep 19 - 02:04 PM

So Cameron tells us, accurately, that Johnson and Gove are both massive gits (we didn't need to be told, actually, call-me-Dave). What he doesn't tell us is that he's the most massive git of all. Prepare to be massively lied to about why he called that massively disastrous referendum.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Sep 19 - 05:36 PM

And the pink Tories (oops, sorry, "LibDems"), that ragbag collection of protest-vote winners and ex-disaffecteds, have decided that when they win a majority (some time in the twenty-second century if they're lucky), they'll overturn brexit in summary fashion. Which puts them at odds with Labour, the Welsh Nats, the SNP and the Greens. Ditching a potential alliance that could get rid of the Tories. Handing the election to the Tories on a plate. Well they've done it once, and they're Tories in all but name, so why should I be surprised? Useless bunch of tossers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Sep 19 - 08:45 PM

Amazing turn of events - now Johnson thinks he's THIS FELLER
How long are Brits going to allow this retard to embarrass them !!
YOU REALLY COULDN'T MAKE THESE MADMEN UP
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Sep 19 - 01:01 PM

Summed up nicely in The London Economic

Best quote from there, Michael Dragon's tweet. "My favourite episode of The Incredible Hulk is the one where a small group of people shouted too loudly so he ran away" :-D


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Sep 19 - 01:02 PM

Dragon's? Deacon's! Unless my spill chucker knows something...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Iains
Date: 16 Sep 19 - 01:14 PM

A very interesting commentary of where we are and the dangerous forces remainiacs are playing with by denying the outcome of one of the biggest biggest votes in UK history.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uUYRcFXVQ8

I wonder if the supreme court finds Boris guilty or decides the judiciary has no place in the proceedings. They also play a dangerous game by potentially giving a rabble a slight element of credibility, despite them not having the guts to let the people decide by way of an election.

Dangerous times. A rogue parliament defying the majority of the electorate. If democracy is broken, what happens to the rule of law?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Sep 19 - 01:16 PM

European meeting ended with nothing resembling a deal
European Prime minister's office too small to house all the journalists so he took questions outside while Johnson pissed off without saying anything - must have heard a whisper that the's cheap wine to be had in Luxomberg
Nice to know that 'The Incredible Hulk' is batting for Britain with all his strength
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2019/sep/16/brexit-latest-news-boris-johnson-talks-juncker-eu-must-show-flexibility-says-raab-ahead-of-boris-johnsons-key-meeting-with-juncker-live-news-latest-news
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Sep 19 - 08:17 PM

Well what a day. Johnson has behaved comically, making a complete fool of himself in Europe, looking unprepared and rambling, making us embarrassed to be British.

In the meantime, we have Swinson. The Swinson who called for an in-out referendum almost before it was a twinkle in call-me-Dave's eye. The Swinson who, as a minister in the coalition, helped to enable ten years of austerity, pitching millions into misery. The Swinson who helped to break so blatantly the solemn LibDem promise on tuition fees. So now, ha bloody ha, she's telling us that a majority LibDem government would scrap brexit just like that. As Tommy Cooper might have said, not like that, like that. No referendum. And she would refuse to support either Labour or the Tories in a hung parliament.

Well I'll tell you summat. My constituency, North Cornwall, and the West Devon one next door, we're always traditional LibDem seats. Like nearly all the seats in this one-time LibDem stronghold which is the south-west, most people voted leave. So that's screwed it then. The Tories keep 'em all. She and her ragbag assortment of a handful of electees and a tawdry bunch of opportunist disaffecteds are going to be very disappointed when they get about a tenth of the seats needed to get their majority. And they WILL support one of the Big Two. It's what glory-seeking LibDems always do.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Sep 19 - 08:19 PM

Damn that rogue apostrophe...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Sep 19 - 03:03 AM

"Johnson has behaved comically, making a complete fool of himself in Europe,"
I think it is a mistake in ignoring what Johnson is actually doing here Steve
I believe he is deliberately creating for himself the image of the champion of the people leading the fight against the foreign interlopers
I watched the one-man press conference yesterday and was struck by the articulate dignity of Bettel who, instead of slating Johnson, just pointed out his cowardly absence from an vitally important opportunity to publicly put the case for leaving Europe - a total betrayal of the British people fot sake of self-promotion
The Brexiteers and their media lap-dogs are presenting this as a slight of the British and their leader
THat's how populism and extremism works - "any criticism of my master is a slight on my people"
These have become dangerous times
One of the main influences on Brexit was initiated by the creator of the disgraced Ukip Party which appeared to collapse under its own ridiculous excesses
THIS HAS BEEN ON THE CARDS FOR SOME TIME NOW
When the Tory Party finally collapses, as any party at war with itself and the people it represents inevitably will, you can bet that the scum of the right will scramble to fill the gap
You can lay good money that political careerists like Johnson will take any support they get to scramble the greasy pole - The Brexit Party is little more than an organised Ukip replacement in a suit
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: peteaberdeen
Date: 17 Sep 19 - 03:34 AM

mods - didn't like it when ads started to appear in the threads on mudcat. however, this morning i find 2 ads asking me to define my personality on what kind of gun owner i am? what the fuck! do you have any concept of how offensive this, particularly in the uk? do you have no control who advertises on here? once we start to normalise the idea of gun owning we may as well give up...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Sep 19 - 04:21 AM

The ads are getting more intrusive and more strident. I can't think that Joe would approve the one that split my last post in two - something about passion, a large photo of a crucifix complete with the nailed-on Christ and a caption urging me to make her "scream all night..."

I wasn't ignoring what Johnson is trying to do, Jim, and I agree with your post. I've made plenty of comments to that effect. Mrs Steve doesn't post here, but if she did she'd confirm the amount of ranting and raving at the telly I did during those news bulletins yesterday. Of course, Johnson's idiocies will go down only too well with those unfortunately large numbers of brexiteers who are feeble-minded, bigoted and ignorant.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Sep 19 - 04:38 AM

"Of course, Johnson's idiocies will go down only too well with those unfortunately large numbers of brexiteers who are feeble-minded, bigoted and ignorant."
Many of these are as much victims of Brexit as much as those who oppose it
We are all suffering now from this stupidity - think how bad it's going to get if it ever gets through
If Johnson and his circus represents Britain , then Britain has become a feeble-minded, viciously misogynist and racist place, devoid of humanity - that's what Johnson and his junta has proved themselves to be over and over again
I prefer to think of my birthplace as far superior than that, but of course, everyone views ther home-place with fondnes and respect - very different from Brave New Brexit
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Sep 19 - 05:24 AM

Well, Jim, it'll take an election to find out whether Johnson really represents Britain. Only a few mostly-white, mostly-rich, mostly-male Tories have so far voted for him. And the next few weeks will be a very long time in politics. He hasn't put a foot right so far. Can you see this unprepared oaf improving that situation?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Sep 19 - 05:38 AM

Have just PMd you Steve
I thing the penultimate posting above makes my and your PM points perfectly, don'y you
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Sep 19 - 05:49 AM

I don't agree with you and I've responded to you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Sep 19 - 08:31 AM

"Well, Jim, it'll take an election to find out whether Johnson really represents Britain."
Having watche the opening shots of the appeals, actually it won't Steve
The appeal is that Johnson has breached hia authority as PM and has placed himself above the rule of parliament for political and personal purposes
They argue that the period for which parliament was closed is unprecedented and thet Johnson has lied when he clams it was common practice; that it was, in fact, to prevent Parliament debating a nationally important subject in order to over-ride it
This not only goes against the Constitution, but is in fact illegal
Johnson was expected to provide an opening statement explaining his actions - he has not done so
When asked what he will do if the decision goes against him, he says he will see what that decision is
This smacks of a political coup which, if successful, will be out of the hands of the electorate
One way or the other, either the courts will decide whether he is fit to represent Britain or he and his cronies will
No politicians who has behaved as he has can never be allowed to stand as leader again, especially as he has openly undermined the British legal system
He has behaved exactly as Trump has in the US - he is dismantling British democracy and making it fit his own extremist, perverted political outlook
He is rapidly becoming an openly out-of-the-closet fascist with his little army of insignificant nodding dogs backing him
The world has been here before - in my lifetime
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Sep 19 - 08:39 AM

The only surprise AFAIC is that anyone is surprised.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Sep 19 - 08:43 AM

Incidentally
The argument has been that attacking Johnson is attacking the British people
If you believe that this turd in any way represents Britain, or anything other than his oen ambition, you have a far lower view of Britain than I do
He is a self-promoting right-wing extremist using the British People as his Stairway to the Stars - nothing else
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Iains
Date: 18 Sep 19 - 02:00 AM

This not only goes against the Constitution, but is in fact illegal

opinion not fact!

The bill of rights clearly states: Debates or proceedings in Parliament ought not to be impeached or questioned in any court or place out of Parliament'

I fail to see how the court action can possibly succeed. The judiciary are playing with fire.

"the key issue is about “justiciability”, or whether the prime minister’s use of the royal prerogative should be subject to legal scrutiny. The Judicial Power Project at the thinktank Policy Exchange has argued that judges are usurping parliament’s powers through excessive “judicial activism”

This constant recourse to law in recent times cuts both ways of course.?
Can a law be passed when the Queen's consent was not granted?
Can a rabble pass laws in Parliament when they have no accountability.
This latter point is further strengthened by the argument that twice the rebels were offered an election to give legitimacy for their decisions. Twice they refused. In essence the majority of MPs constitute a rogue parliament in opposition to the will of the people.

The inescapable conclusion is that the rebels are very happy to thwart the minority government wish for an election because they know full well, that should an election take place, they would end up with no mandate from the people.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Sep 19 - 03:28 AM

"No politicians who has behaved as he has can never be allowed to stand as leader again, "
Having given this a bit more thought, I think it needs refining
Politicians who have behaved as johnson and his army of zombies have should be permanently disbarred from becoming involved in politics again
They have deliberately betrayed those who elected them by damaging the institution that give people their only say in how our lives are organized - the electoral system
We vote for those who we wish to represent us - Johnson has seized the right to dismiss them if they get in the way of his ambitions and intentions
He has deliberately lied to both Parliament and to the people; he probably lied to the queen
He has hidden facts on medical supplies, food, jobs, the future of industries in Britain, transporting goods... his whole technique is based on a string of lies and secrecy
His party commissioned an enquiry on what might happen after a hard Brexit, it was hidden from the public, it was said to be out of date, now it is claimed to have been sorted

Most politicians lie but few base their carers on it, as the otherwise unelectable Clown that is Johnson has
No-one who is even suspected of behaving as he obviously has is fit to be involved in representing the British people, let alone being a national leader

He doesn't have to worry about being out of a job - I have little doubt that he would be welcomed with open arms, with its reactionary and archaically conservative history.
If they gave Mad Enoch a seat, Barmy Boris would be dragged through the front door
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Sep 19 - 03:31 AM

That last was a reference to the DUP, of course
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Sep 19 - 05:07 AM

Opposition parties resisting government policy with all their might is absolutely why we have a multi-party system in the first place, the keystone of our democracy. I note that the word "rebel" has been massively employed in recent weeks to characterise pejoratively every MP who doesn't support the Boris line. The correct term for them is opposition, not rebels. I suppose the 21 (or have I lost count) Tories who defected might justifiably be called rebels, but even then I wonder whether you can still be a rebel when you're not even in the party. Words make good weapons. I note that a recent much-overused Cummingsism, popping up in just about every Johnson pronouncement, is the reference to "our friends and partners in the EU." Repeated use of mantra-words is an attempt at brainwashing. Resist!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Sep 19 - 05:43 AM

Whatever the figure, you need to add the 43 cabinet or government ministers who went before Johnson shat on the Parliamentary scene
Among the three women who resigned together, Anna Sourby wone my heart fror describing Nigel Farage as "looking like someone who has inserted his finger up his bottom and is rather enjoying it"
She can have my babies anytime
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Sep 19 - 06:11 AM

It has not been disclosed how many of the women who resigned did so to escape Johnson's 'gropey' proclivities
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Sep 19 - 06:44 AM

Dominic Cummings: Boris Johnson aide given formal powers to sack cabinet ministers' advisers


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Iains
Date: 18 Sep 19 - 07:16 AM

Of course those that do not like the way Boris is behaving have a very easy solution. This was offered twice to the opposition, by way of a General Election. On both occasions the opposition chickened out.
Why was that do you suppose? Could it be they know they would be thrashed?

Your perpetual whining is rather comical as you have not the courage to rectify your complaints. How pathetic is that?
You are all acting like a lettuce that has been left out in the sun for a week, limp and vapid!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Sep 19 - 08:16 AM

Dominic Cummings has been given formal permission to sack advisers to cabinnet ministers
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/dominic-cummings-boris-johnson-cabinet-minister-aides-civil-service-sajid-javid-a9109836.html

British Parliamentary Democracy is now in the hands of Johnson's Gestapo
The move follows the furore over the dismissal of Sonia Khan, an aide to the chancellor Sajid Javid, who was frogmarched out of Downing Street by an armed police officer last month.
This is a scene familiar to all of us fans of films of wartime Germany
We can only hope Ms Khan Mr Khan takes up her option to sue the arse of these goose-steppers before they extend their grip to the rest of us
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Sep 19 - 08:18 AM

Sorry Mac - was so angry I didn't notice your posting
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Iains
Date: 18 Sep 19 - 09:00 AM

Sonia Khan was sacked after a leak of plans for a secretive Privy Council meeting for the Government to ask the Queen to suspend Parliament for a month in the run-up to the planned Brexit day on October 31.

Any compensation would revolve around her guilt or innocence. If guilty summary dismissal is entirely reasonable.

Jumping to conclusions and making wild allegations such as :
We can only hope Ms Khan Mr Khan takes up her option to sue the arse of these goose-steppers before they extend their grip to the rest of us
is wild, hysterical nonsense, and deeply insulting to the 17.4 million that won the vote for brexit to happen.

As usual no proper reasoned argument, just the usual string of insults
(that are never deleted)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Sep 19 - 09:20 AM

Interesting sting in the tail regarding dominic Cummings been given gestapo-rights because he is said to be the "architect of Brexit"
The architect of Britain's

From 'Farming Independent, August 14th 2019
Vote Leave Brexit campaign and the senior advisor to Boris Johnson has been labelled 'a hypocrite' after it emerged a farm he co-owns received more than £200,000 in EU subsidies.
Dominic Cummings' farm received CAP farming subsidies that he described as "absurd" before the Brexit referendum. According to the UK's CAP Beneficiary database, the Durham farm Mr Cummings co-owns with members of his family received around €20,000 per annum for a number of years.


These people are pulling our collective pissers
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Sep 19 - 09:59 AM

Incidentally
THe heroic Ms Khan was sacked for her pert in the heinous crime of passing on the findings of a report which revealed that people needing vital medicines might not be able to get them when they needed them, that people whose jobs relied on a free flow of transport to and from Europe, might well find themselves out of a job within three weeks, and that anybody protesting about it could be part of a "civil disorder" problem and end up banged up in one of Johnson's new jails
Rather than being " frogmarched out of Downing Street by an armed police officer", she merits a medal for her services to humanity and those attempting to conceal such information deserve to be put in a pillory in Trafalgar Square and have excrement thrown all over them for the rest of their disgusting and miserable lives
In my opinion, of course !!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Sep 19 - 10:12 AM

Would this Dominic Cummings, who has been ‘given formal powers to sack Cabinet Ministers’ advisors’, be the same kind of ‘unelected bureaucrat’ that Brexiteers declared themselves so fed-up with being told what to do and when to do it by?

WTF happened to Dom & Dumber’s very own battle-cry, ‘Take Back Control’? Oh, of course - they’ve given control to...... errrrrmmmmmmm.....an ‘unelected bureaucrat’!

You couldn’t make it up. And if you did, nobody would believe it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Sep 19 - 10:47 AM

Trouble is, John, every single complaint that brexiteers come up with can be dismissed in seconds:

"We need to take back control"... what of ? Our borders that we have got full control over when it comes to non-EU immigrants but which we don't bother to control? Our money, of which the princely sum of one percent of our GDP is actually tied up with the EU and which affords us the benefits of tariff-free trade with by far our biggest trading partner across invisible borders? Our laws, the ones having anything to do with the EU having been overwhelmingly agreed to by mutual consent - bearing in mind that our domestic laws have nothing to do with the EU and that we are free to run our lawmaking and judiciary in any way we like? Our sovereignty: any brexiteer care to tell us, in this era of May being FORCED to consult parliament and Johnson being in court for trying to bypass parliament, what "sovereignty" the EU is stealing from us?

"Ever-closer union": not without our say so. As one of the largest member states we can veto any moves in that direction that we don't like.

"There'll be a European army"...impossible whilst we're members. We've vetoed it. Of course, when we leave it'll probably happen!

"Unelected Brussels bureaucrats dictating our laws"... a profound lie. The Commissioners (a body to which we belong) suggest laws and regulations which are either adopted by common consensus or put to the ELECTED European Parliament. No unelected bureaucrat has any power to enforce new laws or regulations on anyone.

Any more for any more, brexiteers? Don't forgot to tell us how things will improve if you get your way, please! And by the way, if you want to moan about gravy trains and inefficiencies, which I heartily agree are present, don't forget to tell us how we are any better in this country now and how things will get better if we'll leave.

To quote the mighty Raggytash, and in a nutshell, any good news yet about brexit?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Sep 19 - 11:02 AM

Spot-on Steve. But, of course, it’ll fall on deaf Brexiteer ears.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Sep 19 - 11:02 AM

Not only control over non-EU immigrants, Steve. We have control over EU immigrants as well. See the Full Fact article detailing how. Once again though, our government choses not to. Nothing to do with the EU.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Sep 19 - 11:04 AM

Trouble is, John, every single complaint that brexiteers come up with can be dismissed in seconds

Only when they are arguments. I was talking to someone earlier today who voted remain but would support anything including no deal because she 'just wants it all over'. Yes, I know whatever path we take it won't be over for decades, but that siren call of 'get it all over with a clean break' appeals to many, I fear.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Sep 19 - 11:19 AM

But a ‘clean break’ is nonsense, According to an ex-official of the Brexit Dept. There simply is no such thing, no matter how the Brexit-Brigade wish for it.

Another pig in a poke Dom & Dumber have sold them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Sep 19 - 12:00 PM

There simply is no such thing, no matter how the Brexit-Brigade wish for it.

I agree, but it will not be a matter of wishing for it. It will be another promise. What's another lie, after all? Farage was at the vote in the EU today spelling out what no deal means from the EU's point of view and the consequence to the UK, but I imagine it will slip his mind when we talks to the public.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Sep 19 - 12:01 PM

*he talks


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Sep 19 - 12:40 PM

It seems to me the only way out of this is to remove non-elected minders like Cummins, allow Parliament to return asap and agree some sort of coalition, approach Europe for at least a year's stay of execution to sort our a provisional compromise with the elements which have caused the now known problems (particularly those involving the growing increase in racism), and after a long, open discussion to put to the people to see if they wish to reaffirm or withdraw their original decision
The damage and slits done to the various communities has to be a priorityn
Nobody can then say they haven't had a chance to vote based on information and experience
If the decision remains unchanged - duck
The alternative seems to be decades of disruption and conflict and an extremely damaged country
An unattainable long shot maybe, but what alternative is there ?
This nonsense has to be nipped in the bud soon
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Sep 19 - 01:23 PM

If it was my choice Brexit would be taken of the table and used as a the bum-wipe it deserves rot be, but that's not going to happen
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Sep 19 - 06:08 PM

Johnson sinks to new low in lying when confronted by irate parent on photo opportunity visit to hospital
Talking about his sick daughter's inadequate treatment at Whipps Cross Hospital, our gallant PM was told he has no right to use hospitals for media opportunity political gain when they are in the state they are in
JOHNSON LIED - IN FRONT OF A PRESS CAMERA - THAT THERE WAS NO MEDIA PRESENT
You really could not make this level of idiocy up - Britain really is in safe hands with these moron mental deficiants
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Sep 19 - 06:29 PM

I am hardly one to leap to the defence of MR Johnson's approach to governing, and nor do I have much criticism of the parent's complaints, but on this one the PM may be being treated a little unfairly. What people are calling a lie is more likely a 'category error': when he says 'the press' he is thinking of the Telegraph, Times and the Guardian, the Mirror and the Sun, and when moving to wider media the BBC, ITV, CNN and the rest. It is press conferences and and podiums. So a few people with cameras - and I can't find out who they were - probably are not enough to count as 'the press' in his mind. For people with a less public profile, a person carrying a video camera beyond the consumer level probably says 'press' to us.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Iains
Date: 19 Sep 19 - 03:31 AM

Time for judges to butt out of politics. A reasoned argument, unlike the preceding hysterics( I read the"father" was miked up ahead of the ambush of Boris- a bit of Déjà vu methinks)


https://www.spectator.co.uk/2019/09/judgment-day-the-danger-of-courts-taking-over-politics/?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=WEEK%2



Sky News's tweet - ""What do you mean there's no press here ...
https://www.trendsmap.com › twitter › tweet
11 hours ago - @BorisJohnson was confronted by a Labour activist during a visit to a hospital .... Anothe ambush on behalf of the left. ... He was there visiting his critically ill daughter but ”father at the hospital with his sick daughter” ... A Labour activist who just happened to be mic'd as well ???? ... he was microphoned up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Sep 19 - 03:37 AM

It was obviously a deliberately set up photo-opportunity Mac - he wasn't at Whipps Cross visiting his mam
He was actually challenged (a more and more apt word as far as Johnson is concerned) by the irate father on why he should have been using a hospital for publicity which had caused his daughter such problems because of poor treatment
He obviously panicked and deliberately lied, saying there was no media there
Sky news showed film of the event
Whatever the level of coverage, it was a piece of self promotion held at a hospital that has obviously fallen victim to the present situation

One of the most outrageous aspects of this whole situation is that Dominic Cummings (the mover and shaker of most of this) has encouraged/ordered him to close Parliament at a time when our politicians need to be discussing a national (even international) crisis and what exactly is the self-appointed dictator of the UK doing -
Maria Callas-like diva impressions in Europe by flouncing off and refusing to talk to the press and friggin' self promotion jaunts around failing hospitals
Wonder were he's doing to hold his rallies - Trafalgar Square's far too small
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Sep 19 - 03:50 AM

It seems you are not allowed to critices Herr Johnson if you happen not to agree with him
THis gets more and more sinister
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-hospital-brexit-nhs-cuts-labour-activist-parent-whipps-cross-a9111261.html
You will only be entitled to comment on the state of hospitals if you support the New Order
This is an attept to silence all opposition - inside and outside Parliament
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Sep 19 - 03:52 AM

And it's apparently placing itself above the law by attacking the courts in case their judgement goes against the Coup
Creepier and creepier
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Sep 19 - 04:05 AM

I agree it was a photo op created to pass a message *to* the press, Jim. But if the photographers were hired by his PR staff he may have thought of them as 'my staff' rather than 'the press'. But we are talking about what might be going on in the mind of a third person, so it is obviously very uncertain. I was simply saying I could imagine a way where it is not an outrageously blatant lie, but a more human failing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Sep 19 - 04:26 AM

He was there to be seen on camera and attempted to create the impression he wasn't - that was a lie, albeit politicians lie
Doesn't make the slightest difference to the main point Mac
Having silenced Parliamentary activity at a time like this, this feller is poncing around self promoting
LOOK FAMILIAR !!!
Meanwhile his vicious supporters are shrieking when a member of the only real opposition party points out what has happened to his daughter on the very day of Johnson's visit
The black shirts would really have been on display if Labour had gotten off their bums and organised political activity to stop this insanity
I hope to christ they get their arses into gear and organise some real opposition before the cliff-edge gives way
Having been criticised for speaking to Lord Haw-Haw, I think it's times like this when they are needed to show us exactly the nature of the sewers we are having to wade through
Since when has demanding answers from your elected representatives been considered AMBUSHING, especially when it concerns the health of a member of your own family ???
THis gets sicker and sicker (as does the child, apparently
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Iains
Date: 19 Sep 19 - 04:59 AM

And it's apparently placing itself above the law by attacking the courts in case their judgement goes against the Coup

Freedom of speech is guaranteed by article 9 of the Bill of Rights 1689: `freedom of speech and debates or proceedings in Parliament ought not to be impeached or questioned in any court or place out of Parliament'.

I see no ambiguity in article 9. The court case is a farce


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Sep 19 - 05:01 AM

Fabulous news
Labour is beginning to reverse Blair's destruction of its principles with a re-establishment of Clause Four
Instead of our industries pissing off abroad like the Dysons of this sick world or simply collapsing, perhaps they'll fare better in the hands of those who actually do the work rather than just leech of it
Hope it's not too late and we actually have any left industries after this sorry xenophobic-created mess
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Sep 19 - 05:29 AM

"left industries "
Freudian slip - we can but hope
I meant industries lef, of course
"British Justice a farce"
Thate - you have it from the donkey's mouth
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Sep 19 - 05:59 AM

May as well repeat this heer

Never thought I'd agree with this man -

Sir John Major has compared Boris Johnson to a dishonest estate agent,
saying that he had “ulterior motives” when he prorogued parliament.      
The former Tory prime minister,       whose lawyers will intervene today at the Supreme Court, has said in written submissions that Mr Johnson’s decision to suspend parliament was “unlawful”.
He argued that Mr Johnson’s justification for prorogation to bring forward       a new legislative programme “makes no sense and cannot be the true explanation”.
In a clear suggestion that Mr Johnson should not be believed, Sir John wrote that it would be “artificially naive” for the court to accept the prime minister’s stated reasons for the prorogation.

Talk about thieves falling out
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Sep 19 - 08:22 AM

Whatever the outcome to today it seems to be a case of U.K. - RIP
Wales has appealed against Johnson, a Northern Ireland representative has described the devastating effect all this will have on the Good Friday Agreement and Scotland has already won their case back home
No organisation of States can possibly survive that
Add to this Cameron's confession that he attempted to influence the Queen on the Devolution Referendum - you have Britain going to war with itself
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Sep 19 - 01:14 PM

It seems Madge has just handbagged Cameron for telling tales out of school
It seems nobody loves this dreadful minority Government any more, including many of it's own members
Bout time it was put out to grass - one Britain clears up the devastation it has caused, of course
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Iains
Date: 19 Sep 19 - 01:49 PM

Instead of our industries pissing off abroad like the Dysons of this sick world or simply collapsing, perhaps they'll fare better in the hands of those who actually do the work rather than just leech of it
Hope it's not too late and we actually have any left industries after this sorry xenophobic-created mess


More drivelling nonsense!
Let us take an example of British Leyland, where the unions thought they ran the show. Mr Edwards,was a veteran of corporate confrontation; his chairmanship of the British Leyland group was one of the definitive battles against trade union dominance in British industry. He was appointed in 1977 a year in which Leyland had lost production of 250,000 cars through industrial disputes. The shop stewards thought that with a Labour government they had the whip hand and could force Edwards to back down. BIG MISTAKE. He did not! They caused the loss of both factories and jobs and the company survived to fight another day.
I suppose you think that canny entrepreneurs like Dyson and Branston leech off the workers, yet their perspicacity actually created all the jobs. You obviously know absolutely nothing about business, but as you were but a sparky this is hardly surprising. If letting the workers control everything was the panacea you claim it to be it would be in worldwide use with clever people like Dyson and Branston leading the pack. Sensible people recognise the stupidity of the idea, hence it is not practised.

The UK is the second largest manufacturing country in the EU and still ranks number 6 in the world so to talk about Britain having any industries left is rather a silly statement.

Perhaps you need to add fact checker along with spellchecker to your Christmas list.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Sep 19 - 05:34 AM

Boris Trump-Johnson, on a self promotion romp in Wiltshire yesterday, told reporters (he managed to recognise them this time) that he would not rule out closing down Parliament again next month
He would wait for the outcome of the Appeal Court's findings before deciding anything
It appears that if this appeal fails he will be given carte blanche the right to crown himself Emperor of Britain
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Sep 19 - 06:04 AM

That is supported by a point raised in the closing remarks for the government yesterday. They said that if the court were to rule the prorogation were illegal, that should be its limit: it should not rule on what should happen next.

An interesting consequence of the Scottish Court decision what that the prorogation should be 'null and void'. That means it should be as if prorogation had never happened. As a result, the ability to prorogue would be as it was before the prorogation happened, and so there would be no obstacle to proroguing again immediately.

Given that the case has - in my interpretation - hinged on whether if illegality arose it did so from the duration or the claimed motivation of preventing scrutiny, I would be surprised if the Supreme Court decided it was illegal because of an attempt to prevent scrutiny but left open the route to do precisely that again.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Sep 19 - 06:08 AM

I find it mildly amusing that if the ruling goes against the Government they can appeal - to the ECJ.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Sep 19 - 03:28 AM

THE Labour Party, are suggesting imo a very sensible solution .put them in government, then they can negotiate a deal which will then be offered as a referendum, a choice, the negotited deal or leave. the last referndum did not specify how the uk would leave.
attention to detail, is where Johnson and Cameron is/were weak,the uk electorate has the right to know what it is voting on


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Iains
Date: 23 Sep 19 - 07:01 AM

the last referndum did not specify how the uk would leave.

The EU started as the common market.
It is implicit that in leaving the EU that we leave the common market and all that it entails. This was pointed out prior to the referendum.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Sep 19 - 07:54 AM

No, you are wrong the common market and the EU are two different things , we had a vote on entering The common market but no vote on ENTERING the EU.THE COMMON MARKET WAS PURELY A TRADING ORGANISATION. THE EU
How It Is Governed

Three bodies run the EU. The EU Council represents national governments. The Parliament is elected by the people. The European Commission is the EU staff. They make sure all members act consistently in regional, agricultural, and social policies. Contributions of 120 billion euros a year from member states fund the EU.

Here's how the three bodies uphold the laws governing the EU. These are spelled out in a series of treaties and supporting regulations:

    The EU Council sets the policies and proposes new legislation. The political leadership, or Presidency of the EU, is held by a different leader every six months.
    The European Parliament debates and approves the laws proposed by the Council. Its members are elected every five years.
    The European Commission staffs and executes the laws. Jean-Claude Juncker is the president until October 2019.


There was no discussion or proposition on how THE UK should leave the EU.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Sep 19 - 08:15 AM

9000immediate job losses in Britain after Thomas Cooke bombs, thanks to Bexit, 100s in Northern Ireland - 1000s stranded abroad
Not the first and not the last

Don't waste your time or energy Dick - Shirley Valentine got more sense from her kitchen wall
We all know the the referendum never asked for anything specific - no planning, no specified conditions just "Let's get outta here and get rid of the foreigners" - every bit as mindless as that
A sulky teenager leaving home in a huff would give more thought to their future
Anybody who tells you anything was 'pointed out' is lying (an uncontrollable habit as this farce continues
Any moron who wishes to break off from any source of trade as Britain crumbles is a waste of space
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Sep 19 - 01:41 PM

“Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?"
Jim carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Sep 19 - 03:30 PM

Exactly,Jim, that was the wording of the 2016 referendum , that was what was voted on. THERE WAS NO WORDING WHATSOEVER ABOUT WHAT KIND OF BREXIT IT WOULD BE ,THERE WAS NO SUGGESTION OF ANY DEAL NO DEAL OR OTHERWISE ON THE 2016 REFERENDUM. THE FACT THAT CAMERON MAY HAVE MENTIONED IT ONCE IS NOT RELEVANT..YThe labour part have decided at their conference today , that if they win the next election, they will negotiate a deal with the EU A REFENDUM WILL BE PUT TO THE THE UK PEOPLE OFFERING THEM A CHOICE A NEW DEAL OR LEAVE
The uk voters will be able to know what they are voting for, this is fairer than the policy proposed by the liberal party


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Sep 19 - 03:37 PM

this gives back control to the british people they can vote again ,but know what they are voting for, if they vote leave then the uk should leave, if they vote to accept a deal then that should be what happens , it needs to be done again so that people have a choice and know what they are voting for, this is fairet to those leave voters who did not want a no deal brexit and did not realise that no deal might happen, that actuslly naively believed the conservatve government knew what it was doing.
this imo will be the least politically divisive outcome, any true patriot should understand that the best thing for a country is the least political division possible


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Sep 19 - 03:58 PM

The fairest thing for leave voters, as well as remain voters, non-voters and those too young to vote, is to stay in the EU. I'm not interested in just being fair to leave voters. If you voted leave, you were quite likely either a racist or a mug. Not definitely, but likely. I don't see why I should be singling out that cohort for fair play. I'm disappointed that Labour hasn't got off the fence. That's going to play badly in any election campaign, and not coming out solidly for remain is not coming out solidly for the best interests of the country.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 01:14 AM

I disagree Steve,it is a policy that puts back to the voters a chance to make a more informed judgement,. Steve your suggestion raises the possibilties of massive civil unrest similiar to the yellow vest campaign in france .
if you want rioting outside your front door, the liberal party policy is a likely way to get it ,you cannot piss off fifty percent of the populationby overiring a voteand not expect recriminations. a second vote with voters better informed on what they are voting on, is a less politically divisive and more democratic solution. the conservative party have probably alienated one of their tradtional supporters [the small farmer]


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 02:12 AM

None of the paths avoid the risk of rioting, and all are subject to the risk of manipulation, but the idea of a confirmatory referendum seems to offer a potential healing, though it does come with the risk of making the divisions worse. For one thing there will be a substantial group, no doubt lead by Farage amongst others, who will argue it is a choice between BRINO and remain: the only "true leave'is not offered.

Then again, a close result will heal nothing.

And of course the whole approach is too sophisticated to squeeze into a good slogan. "Your choice" is compact and accurate but explains nothing, for example, refers too.much to the 2016 referendum.


So, not a good way forward. But maybe the one with most chances of uniting the country, nonetheless.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 04:04 AM

The way to heal a divided country is through compromise, the labour party are offering a compromise, the liberal party are not neither are the conservatives. The labour party after being elected are offering as compromise, a negotiated deal or leave,the voters will vote[for the first time on an informed choice]that shows more respect for democracy than the other two.parties and hass the best chances of uniting the country, it may not be perefct , but it is imo the best thing on offer


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 04:21 AM

I think Corbyn is likely to get a deal from the EU, THAT IS BETTER THAN ANYTHING ELSE THAT HAS BEEN OFFERED SO FAR.
IF THE ELECTORATE REJECT IT, SO BE IT. we will all have to suffer the consequences. whatever they may be imo it is in the interests of the EU NOT TO HAVE A NO DEAL IT IS ALSO IN THE INTERESTS OF THE UK.
It is in the interest of law and order in the uk and democracy that neither a no deal or what the liberals propose is allowed to happen


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 05:15 AM

Dick, I'm not sure quite what it is you're disagreeing with me about. We appear to be on the same page. I've said that Labour's stance seems reasonable. All I said was that I'm disappointed that we're not going to campaign as a party for remain in a referendum. I'm still a member and I'm staying where I am!

DMcG is right. Whatever the outcome of this shambles, leave sentiment vs remain sentiment will still be scoring about equal in the country and that's a recipe for unrest whatever the ultimate outcome.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 06:06 AM

My mum used to say, “If you keep picking at a scab, it’ll never get better”.

Heed the words of a wise lady, Jim.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 06:31 AM

I see Farage is now calling for Cummings to be sacked!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 06:46 AM

"I see Farage is now calling for Cummings to be sacked!"
Shit - he's after his job
If things go on as they are he'll probablt get it

Sorry lads - I mean to continue till he is stopped
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 07:06 AM

Then he won't be stopped and it will probably be down to just you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: robomatic
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 07:06 AM

Iaians:

It seemed to me on the West side of the Atlantic, that it made no sense to separate from the EU at this point. I think Obama had it right when he attempted to campaign on behalf of the remainers.

The campaign of the Brexiteers seems to have had significant lies and emotional appeals.

Having said all that, there is scant evidence against the referendum itself but what is its legal force? It was not itself an election, it was a rather general expression of direction for an extremely complicated relationship.

So what is your big picture? What should the government be doing? Are you looking for a hard exit with all the confusion that is certain to come? Or an organized exit, which is what PM May was trying to achieve?

Forgive me if you have expounded something comprehensive and I've missed it, but do me the favor (favour) of directing me to your view of an optimum result to the coming hard date (or indeed, if you want to see a massive spanner hit the works, level with me on that prospect).


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 07:35 AM

In spite of claims that the referendum gave the government an instruction or mandate, it could do no such thing because it was not constitutionally set up that way; it was advisory only. A simple in-out question was put and there was a narrow majority in favour of leaving. 51.9% to 48.1% in fact. For three years the Tories have tried to strike a deal with the EU on our terms of leaving, but parliament has not agreed to any deal. There have been a couple of extensions to the leaving date, which should have been at the end of March. The current leaving date is October 31, but, as no leaving deal has been agreed, there is the danger of the UK crashing out without any arrangements having been made for future trade with the EU or for what happens about the border between the EU Republic of Ireland and the soon-to-be non-EU Northern Ireland. The border, which has around two hundred crossing points, was a major flashpoint for conflict during The Troubles, and there is a severe danger that visible border barriers, which currently don't exist, would rekindle the violence. The EU wants a backstop arrangement in place until trade deals are agreed. The backstop would mean that the UK stays in the EU customs union until such time and that the Irish border stays open, as now. That is not acceptable to the Tories, who fear that we'll be trapped in that customs union for ever. It would mean that we couldn't strike independent trade deals with non-EU countries and that you'll have to find alternative markets for your hormonal beef and chlorine chickens. :-) That's the potted story so far. The Tories want us out, the main opposition Labour Party wants another referendum with a deal vs remain on the ballot, and the LibDems, a very small minority party, want to abandon brexit without consultation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Iains
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 08:11 AM

Both Labour and Tory gave a promise to the people to act on the instructions of the people via a referendum. They have reneged on the pact and wasted three years. They are clearly in opposition to the people and yet deny the people an election, therefore they have no legitimacy.
This can be called many things but certainly not democracy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 08:14 AM

Closin parliment illegal - Unanimous decision - glorious day
Corbyn demands he "consider his position
Parliament re-opens tomorrow - Jim probably gets pissed tonight - must polish up my Irish accent to pretend I'm not one of them
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 12:55 PM

A further complication, robomatic, is that because it was never defined what Leave meant - or more precisely multiple inconsistent interpretations were suggested - that almost *any* form of Brexit is in line with what the 80% or so of Parliament agreed to when voting to invoke article 60. There are Brexiteers who are absolutely certain that all 17.4m voted for the version of Brexit they have in mind, and so any proposed form of Brexit that does not match is 'a betrayal of democracy' or some such. That is primarily why May's deal was voted down so often - a group referred to the ERG could not accept it because it did not fit their ideas, whatever all the rest of the 17.4m may have thought.

Calling for a confirmatory referendum is not going against the first vote - it is asking 'diud we get it right?' Arguably, calling for 'revoke' is, but I haven't checked how many LibDems voted for Article 40, so even that may be consistent with the earlier vote.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 01:09 PM

So I referred to Article 40 once and article 60 once. On average, then, I got it right :)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Iains
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 04:09 PM

Robomatic The idea for a referendum to settle the question of remaining or leaving the EU was promised by both Labour and Conservative parties.
Labour reneged under both Blair and Brown, Cameron honoured the commitment. Unfortunately dodgy Dave gave no thought to the idea that leave might have the majority and made no preparation for a leave vote.
Parliament voted overwhelmingly for article 50 to set the stage for leaving. The General Election held by May was fought with both parties fighting on a leave ticket.
May was a closet remainer as was the majority of MPs. These same MPs lied to their electorate in order to be elected and have since tried to sabotage Brexit, aided by a remainer speaker and most recently by a remainer supreme court who have overturned the 1688 bill of rights.
   We now have a situation where the majority vote for leaving the EU is being frustrated deliberately by Parliament setting itslf in opposition to the people. Furthermore these same people are denying an election because they know full well they would have a reckoning with the people and fail. If Brexit is frustrated, if article 50 is revoked, if an election is denied there is a fair chance that the patience of the majority will finally snap.
   Our Democracy can only work when the separation between the Executive, administrative and judiciary is kept inviolate.
Our democracy is clearly broken, rebels pass legislation with zero accountability. The speaker is clearly bending procedures to aid the rebels. The judiciary is passing judgement on political matters. This is an action forwhich they have no remit.
The people now despise all three branches of government. This cannot have a happy outcome. For the UK these are dangerous uncharted waters that have the potential to cause mayhem.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 05:40 PM

Sorry Guys but I have to say it to the troll.

"You lost deal with it" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 06:39 PM

Any referendum now would be on whether to get out of the EU on clearly specified terms, which is a completely different question from the vote-for-a-slogan on a lying bus back in 2016.

Moreover there are very good reasons to believe that there is now a majority in the public who would be likely to vote for remaining in the EU. Brexiteers brandish the expression "the will of the people" and talk about what happened three and a half years ago. The "will of the people" that deserves respect is the will of the people today. A fresh referendum would show what that is - and that is precisely who Brexiteers are so desperate to avoid having one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take both type Control' D Cummings
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 07:09 PM

Raggytash, robomatic is a fellow with more than enough intelligence to sort the wheat from the chaff, and as his question has attracted both types of response here he'll have a little, but not too much, processing to do. If he wants.

I agree that remain would probably win another vote, which is why the Tories won't allow one if it's up to them. Whatever the outcome of all this, no matter how it's achieved, there'll be trouble for years to come. As for those judges, their decision was nothing to do with brexit and was politically neutral, if it was political at all. They have affirmed strongly that ANY executive in this country, no matter what its colour, must not capriciously prevent the ultimate sovereign body in this country, Parliament, from scrutinising the executive's actions. They have not said that Parliament can't be prorogued. But if the executive oversteps its mark, as has blatantly happened this time, we must, in a democracy, have the means to rein it in. That's precisely what the Supreme Court has done. The dangers of not having that constraint available are obvious.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 07:11 PM

And Gina Miller is absolutely exceptional, I must say.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: robomatic
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 07:38 PM

I am grateful to folks on both sides of the issue (and I realize there is more than just 'both' to the sides and issues that I simply don't have the background to recognize). Iaians I don't think your longish summary is irrational at all, but I don't see what your ideal situation would be. Is it a return to the economic situation prior to the formation of the EU? I don't think that is where you are but where are you?

What I gather from looking at recent history is that the heavy duty Europeanization of the continental economy seems to have been stimulated by the unification of Germany in 1990 and the extensive economic centralization that led to the introduction of the Euro just over ten years later. Along with these heightened concentrations of bureaucratic power in Brussels and the increasing porosity of European borders. The 90s and early zips seem to be a vital period where Europe was changing from a group of nations to a nascent superstate.

I remember talk in the U.K. in the 60s expressed as a U.S.E. a "United States of Europe". Then the comparison was to the U.S.A. although the prospects of a united Europe have been considered far before there were even American colonies. Clearly WWII was the impetus to consider uniting countries in an attempt to overcome nationalism, as was the institution the United Nations. The current U.S. President has rejected internationalism, using what for him is a pejorative "Globalism". Is this, Iaians, also where you are coming from in philosophy? Or are there other ramifications I'm not seeing (highly likely)?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 07:49 PM

My apologies to most people.

I just couldn't resist the opportunity!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 08:25 PM

The present-day EU started in the fifties as a common market of six states, the sentiment being that the mutual benefits of a close trading relationship would diminish the prospect of any more bloody European wars. It worked on the whole. The club has expanded into a bloc of 28 states, each of which has to sign up to democracy, human rights, free movement and the rule of law. Every nation is fully in control of its own domestic laws and taxation system and most countries are still pretty nationalistic. As for currency, nineteen countries are currently in the eurozone. Most of the others may become obliged to join, but the UK can not be obliged to join. There are varying levels of veto available to the member states; generally the bigger you are the more powers you have. The European Commission is a body comprising one appointed representative from each of the 28 nations. It proposes legislation and ensures that treaties are honoured, among other functions of oversight, but has no legislative power. The European Council consists mostly of the elected heads of each nation and is more involved in the political direction of the EU. But the only body that can ultimately agree legislation or regulations is the elected European Parliament.

The eurozone has caused inequities and difficulties for smaller nations, and my view is that the project was a bad idea. Having said that, looking at Germany, I think the UK would have done rather well had we joined. Who knows. There are other absurdities and inefficiencies that result largely from the disease of gigantism. Overall, I think that the EU has on balance been a force for good in a world in which huge blocs have dominion. The term "United States of Europe" is simply vexatious. The EU did not evolve in anything like the same way as the US, and there will never be a time when all 28 countries will have ditched their sovereignty in order to exist under a single president. Other favoured brexiteer pejoratives such as ever-closer union (impossible without our agreement) and unelected bureaucrats in Brussels forcing laws on us (a simple lie) and the threat of a European army (impossible as we've vetoed it) are equally vexatious.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Sep 19 - 02:11 AM

Parts of the media and elsewhere are arguing that this decision makes the replacement of judges with political appointments inevitable - similar to the US arrangement.

Such things are possible, of course, but it could only be by a law passed by Parliament. So Parliament would have to be voting to have less authority. It would take a rather strange set of events for that to happen, I suspect.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Sep 19 - 03:23 AM

Robo
Just a little clarification
There would have been nothing wrong in holding a referendum on leaving Europe if:
a) There has been signs beforehand that there was enough discontent from the general populace on the issue to merit one

b) The referendum had been held correctly, taking the general interests of the people as a whole into consideration and providing the voters with the information they needed

c) That those responsible had made and presented carefully drawn out plans as to what would replace Europe and the consequences of doing so

On the first, there were no signs and no general discontent about European membership - the proceedings of the Europe Parliament where as much a mystery and is as remote as is the inner working of the Westminster Government - we know only what they wish us to know
The main four individuals who pushed Brexit through were Cummings, Farage, Johnson and Cameron - in that order
It was the anti immigration groups and those whose political failures made it necessary to mlame immigration who pressed for leaving and it was that issue which won it
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-latest-news-leave-eu-immigration-main-reason-european-union-survey-a7811651.html
OR PUT MORE BLUNTLY

Second
The immediate reported response was on non-indideanous people being asked "when are you going home" - racist incidents have now risen by over 42%
No decision that adversely acts against millions of national residents can ever be described "democratic", especially as most of those are already disadvantaged by being non-indigenous
The most prominent and memorable feature of the campaign was Farage's poster, which actually teetered on the brink of illegality

Third
No plans were drawn up for leaving and the horrendous possible consequences were kept hidden when they were finally researched - when they were leaked, the Brexit leaders were more concerned about them having been leaked than being prepared to discuss them

The whole thing was based on a lie and generated by Xenophobia - not my idea of democracy
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Iains
Date: 25 Sep 19 - 04:26 AM

Robomatic
There is a lotof nonsense being spouted by remainers. The fact is that leave won the referendum and the latest survey results show 60% of people in the UK want brexit to proceed. Interestingly this is a much higher percentage than voted leave originally. It also contains a large number of those voting remain who simply want to see the democratic majority view prevail.
It also needs pointing out that what originally started as a customs union quickly changed to a monetry union and it is the clearly stated intention to make it a full on political union with centralisation of defence, foreign policy and taxation, accompanied by the destruction of the nation state and majority voting for everything and no veto powers to remain. Essentially to become a united states of europe.
Many remainers like to dispute this but the quotes outlining the above from various EU leaders are easily found. It is for these reasons most be voted leave, regardless of consequences.
Remainers argue over minutiae in a mindless attempt to somehow invalidate the outcome ofthe referendum. They get progressively more strident as they see their efforts repeatedly fail.
I recommend you look at the Guido Fawkes site that is a rolling commentary on political events in the UK with a comprehensive comments section.
The lefties hate it with a passion because his content is irrefutable, hence all the ad hominem attacks on him from this forum(and constant deletions) By the hatefest shown on here against him he must be doing something very right! Everytime a survey result is quoted that goes against the narrative the lefties attack it. They actually have no real argument to offer as to why the majority vote should not be respected, hence all the insults and bluster. Rational conversation on this topic ceased years ago, but recent events are now building to the crunch. We have Parliament in opposition to the government of the day and the people, aided by the collusion of the speaker and supreme court, yet demands for an election are constantly thwarted. Yet this is the only way their actions can gain legitimacy-the downside being that the electorate willboot most ofthe rebels out of parliament shouldan election occur. We also have the worst leader of the opposition ever.
Those who voted to leave are getting very impatient that a minority are obstructing them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Sep 19 - 05:40 AM

"There would have been nothing wrong in holding a referendum on leaving Europe if:
a) There has been signs beforehand that there was enough discontent from the general populace on the issue to merit one

b) The referendum had been held correctly, taking the general interests of the people as a whole into consideration and providing the voters with the information they needed

c) That those responsible had made and presented carefully drawn out plans as to what would replace Europe and the consequences of doing so..."

Well you could have added to those the need to set the bar very high for leaving (an irrevocable decision). I suggested at least a two-thirds majority of a turnout not less than 75%. A remain vote is much easier to overturn at some future date. The referendum was thus fatally skewed. But, even had all these caveats been in place, the referendum (called by a man who was thereby trying to stave off the threats from UKIP and his own backbenchers, lest we forget) would still not have been justified. The extremely complicated consequences of leaving which we now see all too clearly were either seriously downplayed or simply not put before the people in the campaign. We elect parliament to look into all the ramifications of policy changes before they are decided on. That's the full-time job of MPs who have not only their own experience but also the input of hundreds of advisers and other civil servants. Just to pre-empt the expected brainless input of those who say that that's an insult to the intelligence of the populace, I beg you just to watch the dreary vox pops that are on just about every BBC news bulletin these days. The level of public political ignorance routinely on display is depressing in the extreme and is a brilliant argument against giving crucial decisions about the future of this country back to the people in referendums. Ignorance leaves you vulnerable to lies and propaganda. That was cynically exploited ceaselessly by both sides in the referendum campaign. And Jim's right about the fact that there was little appetite for a squabble in the country over Europe. We were bumping along just fine. Successive Tory leaders all the way back to Thatcher have all bitten the dust via making A Big Thing about Europe instead of focusing on domestic issues. Just for once I'd love to see unlearned history repeating itself.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Sep 19 - 05:44 AM

More chaos fro The Tory Party dying swan
Tory dissidents are insisting their conference be held on time and Johnson is demanding a Parliamentary recess in order to hold it
Labour will oppose any attempts to close parliament again, insisting that discussing the crisis is more important than bailing the Tories out of the mess of their own creation
What a fiasco
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Sep 19 - 05:58 AM

I think the Tories should have their conference but without a recess. It would be interesting to see what legislation could be passed :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Iains
Date: 25 Sep 19 - 05:59 AM

Yes indeed! a fiasco caused entirely by those who refuse to accept the majority decision.
This is well exemplified by the ex supreme court buffoon interviewed on sky:Former Supreme Court Judge Lord Sumption told the BBC this morning that “52% of the electorate simply cannot have 100% of the spoils, they have to engage with the rest”.

The referendum was a binary choice, Leave or Remain. If the vote had been to Remain, Britain would not have semi-Brexited, it would have 100% remained in the EU. The British political system is adversarial, very adversarial currently, it usually results in clear outcomes. When a candidate wins a single vote more than their opponents they do get in fact 100% of the spoils.

Just fancy tha,t a remainiac ex judge that apparently has not the first idea of what democracy means. Rather like the Supreme court judges of whom only one was a brexiteer. They should have recused themselves!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Sep 19 - 12:49 PM

Leave-with-a-Norway-deal and Leave-with-a-Canada deal are perfectly valid alternatives to Leave-with-no-deal and they completely abide by the wishes of the 52% as far as anyone can tell. As I say, there is a brand of Brexiteer who claims everything except their personal interpretation of Leave is not leave at all. That is why I tried for a long time to distinguish between Leavers - those who simply voted Leave - and Brexiteers who insist on the One True Brexit. But I am afraid it proved impossible to maintain that distinction because the terms were thrown around as interchangeable.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Iains
Date: 25 Sep 19 - 01:57 PM

Reasons for regaining our sovereignty
(I draw your attention to the jean claud junker quote below, before you start your 'taking the cuntry' back bullshit)


1)Defence:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/08/jean-claude-juncker-calls-for-eu-army-european-commission-miltary

https://www.politico.eu/article/angela-merkel-emmanuel-macron-eu-army-to-complement-nato/

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/eu-army-angela-merkel-macron-germany-france-military-european-commission-juncker
2) Common Foreign Policy
https://www.ecfr.eu/article/commentary_prominent_europeans_call_change_in_approach_eu_foreign_policy

https://www.cer.eu/publications/archive/policy-brief/2019/should-eu-make-foreign-policy-decisions-majority-voting
Common Taxation or harmonisation
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/eu-commission-pushes-ahead-with-plan-to-end-unanimity-on-tax-1.3746080

and to clarify the nature of the beast:Jean-Claude Juncker's most outrageous political quotations:
1) On Greece's economic meltdown in 2011
"When it becomes serious, you have to lie.

2) On EU monetary policy
"I'm ready to be insulted as being insufficiently democratic, but I want to be serious ... I am for secret, dark debates"

3)On British calls for a referendum over Lisbon Treaty
“Of course there will be transfers of sovereignty. But would I be intelligent to draw the attention of public opinion to this fact?,”

4) On the introduction of the euro
"We decide on something, leave it lying around, and wait and see what happens. If no one kicks up a fuss, because most people don't understand what has been decided, we continue step by step until there is no turning back."

5) On eurozone economic policy and democracy
“We all know what to do, we just don't know how to get re-elected after we've done it”

All the above are individually reason enough to want out of the EU, but the remainiacs simply refuse to acknowledge these facts and simply deny them!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Sep 19 - 05:00 PM

All recent polls on the sibject indicate that there is now a majority against leaving the EU. That is especially true among the young - in 2016 the voting breakdown among 18-30 year olds was 70-30 in favour of Brexit. The number of young people who have come on the electoral roll since then is several times as large as the Leave majority over Remain back in 2016. The only peole calling for a fresh referendum are Remainers, those opposed to one are virtually all Brexiters.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Iains
Date: 25 Sep 19 - 05:21 PM

All recent polls on the sibject indicate that there is now a majority against leaving the EU.

Hmmmmmmm!!!!!! LINKS???

Comres sept 2019
Three in five of the British public agree that Parliament has had plenty of time to debate Brexit and we should just get on with leaving the EU (60%), including one third (35%) of 2016 Remain voters.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Sep 19 - 03:13 AM

What a frighteningly appalling display of goose-stepping violence in yesterday's Westminster gathering - made the Winter Palace Gatherings way back look like tea on the lawn
I fear this is the start of something really nasty
Something far more sinister slipped quietly under the wire yesterday when a court ruled that it wasn't illegal for referenda such as this to be funded by foreign money, so letting one of the Brexiteer backers off the hook
Some time ago. Marine LePen called or an international confederation of ultra-right groups - incidents like these and Russian interference in British and American politics are signs that this is beginning to happen
Even the efforts of a group of locals in Co Galway banded together to block the establishment to a refugee center went international this week and was heralded as a great victory by the European arm-raisers
I have little doubt that, (if he survives), Johnson will turn to Tump (if he avoids impeachment) to create a Brave New World (Adolph and Benito ride again - no prizes for guessing which is which)
Happy days really do seem to be here again
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Iains
Date: 26 Sep 19 - 04:50 AM

Something far more sinister slipped quietly under the wire yesterday when a court ruled that it wasn't illegal for referenda such as this to be funded by foreign money, so letting one of the Brexiteer backers off the hook

A typical pack of lies and distortions by little jimmy. I really cannot understand why he is continually allowed to post garbage.

THE REALITY

The National Crime Agency (NCA) has said it has found 'no evidence that any criminal offences have been committed' after the Electoral Commission referred allegations against Leave.EU and businessman Arron Banks.

Britain's FBI accepted a referral from the Electoral Commission of a number of alleged offences against Leave.EU, its chief executive Elizabeth Bilney, businessman Arron Banks and a company called Better for the Country Ltd.

It claimed that Mr Banks was not the true source of £8 million in loans, and that the company through which they were made, the Isle of Man registered Rock Holdings Ltd, should not have been used to make donations because it is registered outside the UK.

But, in a statement the NCA said it had 'found no evidence that any criminal offences have been committed under PPERA or company law by any of the individuals or organisations referred to it by the Electoral Commission.

'It will therefore take no further action against Mr Banks, Ms Bilney, Better for the Country Ltd or Leave.EU in respect of this specific matter'.   

Banks, nicknamed the 'Bad boy of Brexit', has been dogged by claims he was backed by the Kremlin to help bring about the UK's divorce from the EU - but he has repeatedly branded it 'b*****s'.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Sep 19 - 05:24 AM

WHY IS THIS INDIVIDUAL STILL BEING ALLOWED TO CONTINUE POSTING THE WAY HE IS MODS ?
I WOULD VERY MUCH APPRECIATE AN EXPLANATION FOR THIS STRANGE LAPSE - ARE YOU ALL ON HOLIDAY?
Respectfully
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Sep 19 - 07:18 AM

I'm getting fed up of saying this. The nonsense about fears of a "European army" was one of the many lies propagated during the leave campaign, and, though I've mentioned this umpteen times here, it's depressing to see the lie still being told in this thread (cf post of 01.57pm yesterday). So here it is again: the European Commission can't propose a European army, no matter what the expressed aspirations of EU leaders are. It is beyond its remit. If individual EU countries want to get together to join forces, well good for them, but an official EU army is impossible unless ALL 28 MEMBER STATES AGREE. As the UK does not agree, the whole notion has been effectively vetoed. To put it simply, while we are members, there will never be a European army of the kind being vexatiously postulated by lying brexiteers.

So what's the lie? "As members of the EU we will be forced to participate in a European army" (a lie oft embellished with the threat of our young lads and lasses thereby being vulnerable to conscription).

So what's the truth? There will be no European army, no matter what any EU bigwig says, while we are members of the EU. What's more, if and when we leave the EU it will mean one state fewer demurring at the notion, therefore actually increasing the possibility of its happening.

I really do think that this one should be put to bed once and for all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Stanron
Date: 26 Sep 19 - 09:49 AM

You are expecting me, a Europhobe, to believe two impossible things, although it is after breakfast. First that the EU will not get the veto removed by promising to various opponents that if they vote 'correctly' they will be guaranteed a position on the Commission a few years after retiring and second that the politicians will resist the temptation.

I believe that the veto has little time left.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Sep 19 - 10:10 AM

Your mistrust of Europe is hardly conducive with the threat of sectarian violence that now hangs over Northern Ireland Stanron
The possibility of a return to that violence was raised by a Northern Ireland Baroness in The House of Lords yesterday
ou people have not shown the slightest interest your Brexit is already doing to other countries and you have compounded that by accusing Ireland of being intransigent on the border issue, despite the increase in paramilitary activity and the recent sectarian attack in Glasgow   
Now you are making Europe the threat in the same way you have made The British Parliament an obstacle to your ambithings
It's about time you people got yourselves a big mirror and contemplate what you are doing to peace and stability
JIm carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Sep 19 - 10:12 AM

And where's your evidence for that particular piece of fearmongering?

I've just seen a tweet from Katya Adler, the Beeb's Europe editor: "Chances of getting a deal with UK by the EU leaders’ mid Oct summit were never seen here to be high. Now contacts describe the likelihood as « pretty much nil »" She posted that after getting reaction in Europe the disgusting display by Boris Johnson in the Commons yesterday.

She generally has her finger on the pulse, I've found...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Sep 19 - 10:12 AM

My question was to Stanron.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Sep 19 - 10:18 AM

Sorry for the interruption both
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Sep 19 - 10:24 AM

Feel free to interrupt any time you like when I'm talking to a brexit fancier, Jim!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Sep 19 - 10:49 AM

Apparently, the earliest we can have an election now is Bonfire Night (I have my Guido Fawkes effigy ready and I have a little placard next to it which says "I wouldn't give you tuppence for the guy"). But it behoves all the opposition parties to continue to refuse him an election until no deal is off the table and we've extended. That's not frit, Boris dear boy. That's tactics. We don't need any assistance to make you look like an even bigger failing idiot than you already are, but every little helps. It's good to see them all united on this. I was slightly worried that the SNP were getting a bit over-excited about it but all's well. Wouldn't it be good to see that united front continuing. I saw quite a good idea in the paper this morning. Unite under Jeremy Corbyn to win an election with him as PM (there's no alternative right now) on condition that there's a firm commitment to bring in PR as quickly as possible during that first term, then promptly call another election under its terms. In the meantime, that new referendum will keep us where all sane people know where we should be in our best interests, right here in the EU. We live in hope!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Sep 19 - 10:51 AM

Gosh, that's an awful lot of elections in a short time, I suppose...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Iains
Date: 26 Sep 19 - 11:04 AM

I'm getting fed up of saying this. The nonsense about fears of a "European army" was one of the many lies propagated during the leave campaign, and, though I've mentioned this umpteen times here, it's depressing to see the lie still being told in this thread (cf post of 01.57pm yesterday). So here it is again: the European Commission can't propose a European army, no matter what the expressed aspirations of EU leaders are. It is beyond its remit.

Not nonsense, not a lie, FACT:An Advisory Mission in Iraq, a Military Training Mission in the Central African Republic, a Maritime Operation in the Mediterranean and an Assistance Mission in Ukraine are among the most recent additions to over 30 civilian missions and military operations launched by the EU since the Common Security and Defence Policy (CSDP) became a reality almost 15 years ago.EU Factsheet

1)Opening Statement in the European Parliament Plenary Session by Ursula von der Leyen, Candidate for President of the European Commission
I believe Europe should have a stronger and more united voice in the world – and it needs to act fast. That is why we must have the courage to take foreign policy decisions by qualified majority. And to stand united behind them.

The cornerstone of our collective defence will always be NATO. We will stay transatlantic and we have to become more European. This is why we created the European Defence Union. Our work for our European Union of security and defence is embedded in comprehensive security. Stabilisation always comes with diplomacy, reconciliation and reconstruction.

Our servicemen and servicewomen work side by side with police officers, diplomats and development aid workers. These men and women deserve our utmost respect and recognition for their tireless service for Europe.

2)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Security_and_Defence_Policy

3)https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/13/world/europe/eu-military-force.html
Let us revisit the question in 10 years and see who is right and who is wrong. The EU defence force already exists in all but name. Even a
unified command and control structure is only just over the horizon
https://data.consilium.europa.eu/doc/document/ST-8798-2019-INIT/en/pdf If Brexit finally occurs all the above will race ahead.
I look forward to seeing your retraction and apology for calling me a liar


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Sep 19 - 01:26 PM

Brexit nutter breaks into MP's office screaming "fascist"
It's started
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Sep 19 - 03:04 PM

Cummings has now told a Labour MP to vote for Brexit to avoid death threats. Are there no depths these people will not sink to? I hope our resident brexiteers are proud of the people they support.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Sep 19 - 03:25 PM

And I see BoJo's sister is now denouncing his language.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Iains
Date: 26 Sep 19 - 03:30 PM

Brexit?? nutter breaks into MP's office screaming "fascist"

More lies off little jimmie.
There is no mention at all as to the political affiliation of the man arrested.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Sep 19 - 03:34 PM

It's not all bad Dave. Johnson suffered his seventh loss in the vote yesterday to close Parliament for the Conservative party conference.

In fact, as far as I am aware he has yet to win a vote!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Iains
Date: 26 Sep 19 - 03:54 PM

Further to the denial of an EU army, I wonder why armoured cars have EU markings while being used against protestors in Paris? I wonder if the crews are French?

https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/gilet-jaunes-paris-eu-flag-16824885


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Sep 19 - 05:39 PM

As you all know, I'm a very simple man. Tell 'em, Raggytash! So here, hopefully for the last time, is a very simple and very simply true statement emanating from me as a very simple man: while the UK is a member of the EU, there can be no EU army. Anyone can check this. No need to elaborately resort to straw-clutching links that are virtually unreadable. So there. Why do I bother. Someone here is going to severely strain themselves to prove that I'm wrong. But I'm not. Anyone can check. Preferably via neutral sources not designed to feed your confirmation bias.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Sep 19 - 06:08 PM

It is rather surprising Steve that "some" posters cannot differentiate between mainland Europe and the UK.

Mind you considering some of the ranting that goes on .............!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Sep 19 - 07:50 PM



From The Independent, September 2019

"Does the public support Leave or Remain?

Polls show the public now consistently supports Remain.

The polling has showed Remain in front in a hypothetical re-run of the original referendum since soon after the Brexit vote in 2016.

That's not necessarily a slam dunk - Remain was also ahead in many polls before the original vote - but there has been clear daylight between the two for several years now, and there is evidence the gap is growing.

The most recent results from NatCen's "What UK Thinks" report show Remain on 55 per cent and Leave on 45 per cent.

The running average at Britain Elects, which takes in all relevant polling, shows Remain at 53.3 per cent and Leave at 46.7 per cent.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Sep 19 - 08:00 PM

It looks as if asked to give an extension the 27 national governments will agree - but I'd be pretty sure that, if there was a referendum across the EU, the popular vote would be to refuse any extension, and wave goodbye. Trying to keep the UK in the EU is really, I suppose, an example of the EU's notorious "democratic deficit".


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Sep 19 - 09:17 PM

It's a rock-solid cert that an extension will be granted. It isn't quite a rock-solid cert that we'd vote remain next time, but it's a rock-solid cert that such a result would have leavers moaning that democracy had been betrayed. Even though democracy had been served very well.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Sep 19 - 02:47 AM

take back control..vote labour


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Sep 19 - 03:01 AM

"take back control..vote labour"
No Dick - that should be, "Learn to co-operate with other peoples in order to build a better world for all"
Britain has historically proved it is not fit to be in control of anything and nowadays it it proving itself "not ready for independence" as it used to tall its Colonies

I agree with Steve that it is uncertain how any future vote on Britain would go and , given the right circumstances, I'm not sure how I'd vote on being part of a confederation of States whose political aims I basically oppose (I really can't forget what happened when Greece attempted to adopt policies based on humanitarianism and fairness for all)
The dangerous rise of right wing extremist Populism disguised as democracy makes it imperitive to stay in Europe at present, but if Brtian does leave, it can only be described as democratic if the people who vote for it to do so hare given all the facts and consequences and be allowed to have them discussed openly with the xenophobic hate taken out
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Iains
Date: 27 Sep 19 - 05:39 AM

while the UK is a member of the EU, there can be no EU army. Anyone can check this. No need to elaborately resort to straw-clutching links that are virtually unreadable. So there. Why do I bother.
It already exists in all but name. Military operations occur that are EU badged.
How long do you think the individual veto is going to last?

Ursula von der Leyen, President of the European Commission
"....... That is why we must have the courage to take foreign policy decisions by qualified majority."

Do you seriously think it will end with just that? It is the thin end of the wedge. Below an old article but nothing has really changed.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/9289992/At-the-heart-of-Europes-crisis-is-the-abolition-of-the-nation-state-an

At the entrance to the Visitors Centre of the European Parliament, there is a plaque with these words:

    “National sovereignty is the root cause of the most crying evils of our times….The only final remedy for this evil is the federal union of the peoples.”
They were written by Philip Kerr, later the Marquess of Lothian, who was a British diplomat and arch-appeaser in the build up to the Second World War.

Guy Verhofstadt (at the LibDem conference)
“In the world order of tomorrow, the world order of tomorrow is not a world order based on nation states or countries, it’s a world order that is based on Empires

Those rose tinted glasses you insist on wearing are doing you a great disservice! It seems pretty obvious to me that complete federalism is the end game, with all that it entails. There is plenty of disseminated data floating about in cyberspace that can be pieced together to see what the varlets are up to. You just require the nous to gather it up and ponder! The drawback of having a particular political persuasion is that it infects you with tunnel vision dictated by the party line. It will sleepwalk you into a nightmare.
Take a look about, smell the coffee and try thinking for yourself.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Sep 19 - 07:42 AM

I watced Question time last night with disgust as the Tory Moron refused rto answer whether he believed Johnson should apologise for using the murser of a dedicated politician to promote Brexit - as he did
The nasty little prick was forced in the end to say he believed Johnson had nothing to apologise for
Nobody questioned Johnson's well established contempt for women when de described complaining of th threats against women politicians as "humbug"
His misogyny is not confine to throwing glasses of wine at them, it seems - just the kind of leader Britain needs
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Sep 19 - 08:17 AM

It seems everyone is fair game now

Lawyers arguing case against Johnson now in danger

Any of our leavers had death threats yet?

Thought not...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Sep 19 - 08:34 AM

It must be unprecedented to have two leading world leaders accused, (and in the case of Johnson found guilty) actin illegally
Wouldn't it be good if they were forced to share the same cell ?   
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Rain Dog
Date: 27 Sep 19 - 09:09 AM

Johnson's action was found to be unlawful.
Trump is being accused of acting illegally.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Sep 19 - 09:23 AM

"If all the elements are made out of the offence then there would be a criminal conviction and a sentence, which can be up to life imprisonment."
WISHFUL THINKING, I KNOW!!

Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Sep 19 - 09:39 AM

I noticed a Johnson defender making that distinction this morning, Raindog. The two words illegal and unlawful have been used interchangeably for several days in much of the media and by politicians, so I'd suggest that trying to hang on to the distinction in the current context is, for now, fruitless. We all know what we mean. I've been saying unlawful, simply because that's what the justices said. But I'm not that bothered.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Sep 19 - 02:25 PM

Surely the distinction is that Mr Johnson has been found guilty of acting illegally, by a panel of judges. Mr Trump has not as yet. And of course he won't be, because in impeachment the redict is purely political, and there's a Senate majority that will dismiss all charges, irrespective of any evidence.

Illegal and unlawful are essentially synonymous terms.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Iains
Date: 27 Sep 19 - 02:46 PM

Interesting extract from the Supreme Court ruling:
In paragraph 34, the Supreme Court states that its ‘proper function’ under our constitution is to give effect to the separation of powers (which justifies court intervention in relation to prorogation). Then, in what appears to be an innocuous sentence in paragraph 55, it says that it is to be “remember[ed] always that the actual task of governing is for the executive and not for Parliament or the courts.”
In paragraph 46 it says:

    “Ministers are accountable to Parliament through such mechanisms as their duty to answer Parliamentary scrutiny of the delegated legislation which ministers make. By these means, the policies of the executive are subjected to consideration by the representatives of the electorate, the executive is required to report, explain, and defend its actions, and citizens are protected from the arbitrary exercise of executive power.”
The Benn Act then arguably destroys the very principle of parliamentary accountability, which the Supreme Court cited as a cornerstone of the British constitution.

If the Benn Act is unconstitutional, the next question to ask is whether the Court has the ability to rule that it violates constitutional norms and provide a legal remedy.
The way is now open for Boris Johnson to refuse to comply with the Benn Act on the legitimate ground that the Act is unconstitutional and that the courts (and ultimately the Supreme Court) will agree; and even if the Court won’t go so far as declaring it an actual nullity, then at least they will refuse to enforce it.

The Law of unintended consequences kicking in early?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Sep 19 - 05:23 AM

Wonderfully succinnct summing up by Banksy of what Britain's politicians have been turned into by thus bunch of thugs -
The fact that it was painted a decade ago makes it all the more a thoughtful work of art

https://www.independent.ie/world-news/and-finally/banksy-says-artwork-of-mps-as-chimps-put-on-display-to-mark-brexit-day-37961570.html

Can't blue-clickie it unfortunately but I would be grateful if somebody can - every home should have one
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Sep 19 - 05:53 AM

When his own sister speaks out, even the most brain-washed and addled Brexiteers must surely begin to see that there’s something very, very rotten going on in the dark, secret recesses of the Brexit- Brigade’s Bunkers...??


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Sep 19 - 06:58 AM

WHAT JOHNSON'S SISTER SAID
Well worth a read, especially how her brother "honoured Jo Cox's memory" tpby using her death to promote something she had given her life defending
These are truely sick bastards

Brexit Secretary Stephen Barclay has reprimanded members of the Government for attempting to present a watered down version of the backstop - "The Backstop has to go"
This indicates that there are no meetings with Europe planned because Johnson has no intention of coming to an understanding with the E.U.
Europe can't agree to removing the backstop betraying its member states and the British Parliament have forbidden leaving without a deal
Johnson is promoting mob rule to replace the democracy he can't control - hence the IMPENDING VIOLENCE
No doubt BORIS'S LITTLE HELPERS will be there to give the boys in blue a hand
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Sep 19 - 07:32 AM

Little helpers?

27 Sept
"Police in Lewes in East Sussex are investigating a spate of suspected hate crimes committed overnight on Thursday, including the bricking of an anti-Brexit campaigner’s window, antisemitic graffiti on a garden fence and Nazi symbols daubed on a house.
Eugene Gill woke up to find a half brick had been thrown through his kitchen window where he was displaying a “Stop Brexit” poster, residents in The Avenue found "Fuck the Jews Soros's Whores Traitor's [sic]" sprayed in 2ft-high red letters along a fence, and a wall on Paddock Close was sprayed with the slogan: "Save Old Sussex Kill a DFL SOS" with the S’s written in the style of the Nazi SS logo. DFL is a derogatory term for someone who has moved down from London to the South Downs market town."


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Sep 19 - 08:21 AM

Fascism has been prodded out of it's not so long sleep big-time by scum like Farage, Robinson and now Johnson's Junta
Ukip more or less goosestepped and blundered its way aot of existence - a rejected laughing stock, but guess what
NATURAL RUNNING-MATES
If things don't get sorted pronto Jo Cox is going to find herself in company if her sactifice isn't given the respect it merits
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Sep 19 - 11:42 AM

Yet another example of the violence of the leave campaign.

This time Nigel Farage is being investgated for remarks he made to a rally in Newport when he is alledged to have stated "once Brexit is done, we will take a knife to the pen-pushers in Whitehall'

Could someone please link to the article in the Guardian.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Sep 19 - 03:35 PM

I'm still waiting for a report of violence, or threat of violence from the remain side. To datev I haven't heard or read of one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Sep 19 - 03:49 PM

Churchill's clumsy idiocy was responsible for depriving me, at Souvla Bay, of what might have been a wonderful great uncle, who might have been showing this little lad how to play footie in the park in Whitefield and taking me to Prestwich carnival to pay for me on the rides and play roll-a-penny with me and tell me stories and sing some of those ould Irish songs. That's what that "great historian" Churchill did for me. And for tens of thousands of others. They even spelled Uncle Jimmy's surname wrong on the memorial in Salford Cathedral.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Sep 19 - 05:55 PM

Raggy - there may be some reported vandalism from the remain side in the 'little helpers' link I gave earlier. Maria Caldwell says her car's tyres were damaged with nails and screws. That is possible. On the other hand when I lived near one of the many areas where building work is going on, I went through about three sets of tyres over a two year period due to nails and screws being driven over. So quite possibly vandalism by leave supporters, but not proven without more information.

But ieven so, it is hardly a threat of rape, or violence, or bricks thrown through windows.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Sep 19 - 05:57 PM

Sorry, Maria Caldfield, not Caldwell.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Sep 19 - 03:24 AM

Philip Hammond in The Times:

”Boris Johnson asserts, ever more boldly, that we will leave the EU on October 31, “with or without a deal”. But as his sister has reminded us, he is backed by speculators who have bet billions on a hard Brexit — and there is only one outcome that works for them: a crash-out no-deal Brexit that sends the currency tumbling and inflation soaring. So they, at least, will be reassured to see no evidence at all that his government has seriously pursued a deliverable deal; still less that it has been pursuing a deal that could get us out by October 31.”

I wonder if any of our Brexit-supporters here could explain to the rest of us precisely how such a crash-out, no-deal Brexit Would benefit the 64 million or so people in the U.K. who don’t have billions staked on it?

I do have to smile sympathetically, too, when I hear Brexiteers saying they “Just want it done and over on 31/10/19”. Of course, even if we crash out on 31/10/19, it’s wont be ‘done and over’, it won’t be ‘the end’ of Brexit, it will be just the beginning. There’s no such thing as a ‘no-deal Brexit’ - the deals will still have to be done. It’s just that, instead of being done pre-Leaving, when we have a strong negotiating position, they will have to be done post-Leaving, when we will be in a far weaker position.

Never have so many been given it straight up the arse by so few.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Sep 19 - 03:34 AM

A former Cabinet Minister and Johnson's sister is now claiming that Brexit financiers backing Johnson are doing so for personal financial gain - this has now been put into the hands of the police
It seems Trump and his UK ventriloquists dummy have other things in common other than their incompetence, threat to decency and democracy and CLOWNISH APPEARANCE
Both are under scrutiny for possible criminal activity AT THE SAME TIME - NOW THAT HAS TO BE SOME SORT OF A RECORD
Out feller is way out in front as far as the number of votes that he has lost

The latest and greatest threat to democracy is the suggestion by Johnson that the British State Judiciary should follow the US pattern and become appointed by the politicians
Fascism in large red letters
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Iains
Date: 29 Sep 19 - 04:00 AM

Interesting articles in some of the papers today about remainer MPs colluding with foreign powers to frustrate Brexit. Maybe Boris should throw them in the tower while the claims are investigated.

Seems a Prima facie case of treason to me.
Treason:adhering to the sovereign's enemies, giving them aid and comfort, in the realm or elsewhere

They are also in breach of UN law by refusing to honour the outcome of the referendum,
(I did explain at great length how this was so but some kind soul deleted it- The truth must obviously hurt!)

It will be an education to see what guido fawkes makes of it all


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Sep 19 - 04:04 AM

I think leaving on october 31without a deal puts the uk in a weak bargaining position with other trading nations.
Winston Churchill was not a successful peace leader he was someone who managed to win a war with the help of some friends, particularly stalin and the usa,and some help from hitler who made the same mistake as napoleon, fighting on two fronts ,he was lucky, hitler was a poorer war leader than him ,that does not make him a good war leader, he was quite good at speeches and had some good speech writers but tactically he made at least one serious miscalculation


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Sep 19 - 04:17 AM

There is some framing going on with talk of 'the surrender bill' beyond the more obvious one in the term 'surrender'. To be clear:

A Bill is not an Act of Parliament. A Bill becomes an Act if it is approved by the House of Commons and the House of Lords, and is formally agreed to by the reigning monarch (known as the Royal Assent). An Act of Parliament is a law, enforced in all areas of the UK where it is applicable. (www.parliament.uk)


The difference is that a bill is a proposed law that has not been passed yet, and a law has been passed as an Act.

So it is no longer 'a bill'. It is an act of Parliament. But calling it 'a bill' is intended to avoid drawing attention to the fact it is now law, and to go against it is to break the law.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Sep 19 - 04:43 AM

FOREIGN INTERFERENCE IN BRITISH POLITICS
MORE
MUCH, MUCH MORE
FOREIGN INTREFERENCE AFTER PM FOUND GUILT OF SILENCING PARLIAMENT

I should have thought Guido is far too busy preparing to talk office as Britain's Culture Minister in Tommy Robinson and Nigel Farage's new Government
Sorry lads, too good an opportunity to miss
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Sep 19 - 04:54 AM

I notice in The Andrew Marr Show that the Prime Minister has switched to referring to 'the surrender act', and therefore understands perfectly well it refers to the one introduced by Benn et al.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Sep 19 - 05:28 AM

"I notice in The Andrew Marr Show that the Prime Minister has switched to referring to 'the surrender act', "
Yup - imagination and originality never was one of our pet troll's strong points
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Sep 19 - 05:39 AM

For those who prefer their facts unadorned, yertis:

From wiki.

The legislation was introduced to the House of Commons by Labour MP Hilary Benn as the European Union (Withdrawal) (No. 6) Bill on the following day. The Government made clear its opposition to the bill from the beginning, and said that, were it to pass through the House of Commons, the Prime Minister, Boris Johnson, would immediately bring forward a motion under the Fixed-term Parliaments Act for a general election. The bill passed Second Reading by 329 votes to 300.The bill was amended once at the committee stage, by a Stephen Kinnock amendment that would allow the Withdrawal Agreement to be discussed again, which passed as there were not any ‘no’ tellers provided for the division. The bill passed its third reading on the same day, by 327 votes to 299.

The bill then moved to the House of Lords on the same day, and there were suggestions that the bill could be filibustered; unlike in the House of Commons, the House of Lords typically does not restrict the content of debates. The Shadow Leader of the House of Lords, Baroness Angela Smith, tabled a guillotine motion that would allow the bill to clear the Lords by 5pm on Friday 6 September; Conservative peers tabled 102 amendments to the guillotine motion in an attempt to prioritise other parliamentary business over the bill. By 1:30am on 5 September, the Government announced it would discontinue the filibuster and allow the bill to return to the House of Commons, if amended by the House of Lords, for the 9 September sitting.The bill passed Second Reading without a division on 5 September, and passed the Committee, Report, and Third Reading stages unamended on 6 September. The bill received Royal Assent and became law on 9 September 2019, several hours before Parliament was suspended.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: mayomick
Date: 29 Sep 19 - 11:24 AM

Is there any significance in the fact that Brexit supporter Trump is pictured today wearing a Make England Great Again baseball cap - not one with Make Britain Great Again on it ?A mega acronym but Boris couldn't get away with wearing such a slight to the Welsh ,Scots and northern Irish.

I wonder why he has started combing his hair since becoming P.M.?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Sep 19 - 11:39 AM

”I wonder why he has started combing his hair since becoming P.M.?”

I wonder how long it will be before he has a DA and Elvis quiff......along with a bad comb-over?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Iains
Date: 29 Sep 19 - 02:18 PM

For anyone over the pond scratching their head over the political impasse in the UK the clip below gives a very accurate summary


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUxV6SvQHc0


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Sep 19 - 03:11 PM

And, in mentioning the DA, the Quiff, and the obvious comb-over, I forgot to mention the Mullet. And the fake tan and white rings around the eyes....


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Iains
Date: 30 Sep 19 - 07:28 AM

I do like the continuous stream of ad hominem attacks on the Tory Leader by remainiacs

Time to remind people how many times Corbyn has lied about brexit.
Time to remind them how many times he refused a General Election, despite bleating about the need for one continuously for 2 years.
Time to remind them of the incongruity of accusing Boris of arranging a coup while arranging one themselves.
Time to remind them that the labeling of the Government as scum, fasciss etc. etc. really should be attached to Labour and the treacherous remainer MPs.
The complete illegality of the remainer position can be illustrated beyond any kind of counter argument by the following:

The United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights states that the will of the people, as expressed through periodic and genuine elections, shall be the basis of government authority.

If so convinced as to the righteousness of your cause why are you so scared to give it the stamp of legitimacy by holding an election?
Your refusal is a hijack of democracy in defiance of the clearly stated will of the people.
Inevitably an Election will come, and the longer it is delayed the more the remainer MPs will be shredded.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Sep 19 - 08:23 AM

Time to point oyur that Boris is now trying to sidestep accusations that he groped a woman journalist
He gets more like his brother in roving hands Trump every day
Lock up your women "Boris's here" to quote a memorable film poster
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Sep 19 - 09:01 AM

CHAMPION OF WOMEN'S RIGHT-WHAT A JOKE
NO JOKE TO THIS LONG-FORGOTTEN LADY THOUGH !!
Jim Caarroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Iains
Date: 30 Sep 19 - 11:22 AM

Labour never changes!



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buw_YhtbFFQ


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Sep 19 - 11:29 AM

Brilliant! And so utterly, utterly true...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 30 Sep 19 - 11:32 AM

This is the original editorial:

LONDON — One of the rare occasions on which I’ve encountered Dominic Cummings, who may be the most important man in Britain right now, was at a private political dinner in 2016, just after the plan to hold a referendum on Britain’s membership in the European Union had been announced. Mr. Cummings, who a few years earlier had been a political adviser at the education ministry, had been invited to outline the argument that the Brexiteers would be making; a counterpart from the fledgling Remain campaign was there to present his.

The Remainer, a powerful, confident and well-connected man, went first. He presented a baffling, limited, sterile case: Britain had a thriving and critical car industry, which would see its profit margins wiped out by tariffs if Brexit went ahead.

Mr. Cummings, a spindly, socially diffident, unsmiling figure, spoke next. He was emphatic, evocative. He talked about pride, independence, nationhood, sovereignty, dignity, making our own laws and decisions.

I detested Brexit and all it stood for, but I was captivated. Mr. Cummings was making it sound like the noble path. I came home anxious and uneasy. Remainers were way ahead in the polls, but would they come up with something effective to combat the deep emotions that Mr. Cummings’s campaign was tapping into?

They never did. Mr. Cummings went on to drive Brexit, pushing it to a narrow victory against huge internal opposition, by focusing aggressively on what worked. He outwitted Britain’s establishment by combining a brilliantly simple slogan — “Take back control” — with shameless lies about the European Union, the National Health Service and the danger that Turks could soon emigrate to Britain en masse, all backed up by a huge and hidden microtargeted social media campaign. Every element was designed to have a powerful, visceral appeal.

Mr. Cummings proved that stories and lies, allied to strategic cunning, conviction, secrecy, ruthlessness and upending convention, could be much more appealing than reason and fact. Years of studying and writing obsessively about the art of strategy, the failings of most institutions and the success of revolutionary thinkers like Otto von Bismarck had paid off.

Now this single-minded insurgent is the most powerful individual in the British government, vaulted into Downing Street as Prime Minister Boris Johnson’s chief strategic adviser. His job is to deliver Brexit and win Mr. Johnson five years more in office, making up for the prime minister’s deficiencies as a lazy, inattentive bumbler. Mr. Cummings is deploying all the techniques that have worked for him before: disruption, deception, intimidation and an implacable willingness to alienate people.

Those tactics have gone off in British politics this week like a series of grenades. No prime minister has had a more calamitous start. These are the opening battles of a seismic political war. Within five days, Mr. Johnson has lost control of Parliament, lost his party’s majority, lost his ability to leave the European Union at the end of October without a deal, as he has pledged, and lost the loyalty of many moderates in his Conservative Party by brutally expelling the 21 principled, thoughtful, experienced and respected members of Parliament who had opposed his plans to catapult Britain out of Europe without a deal.

Mr. Cummings’s decisions have left Mr. Johnson dangling at the mercy of the opposition parties. He can’t pass any laws, and the opposition now has the power to make the crucial political decision: the date of the next election.

These convulsions have caused uproar in the Conservative Party’s ranks. The former prime minister John Major is demanding Mr. Cummings’s sacking, saying he’s a “political anarchist” who must be ousted before he poisons the government “beyond repair.” Incensed and appalled members of Parliament are watching their party morph before their eyes into a hard-line vehicle for the most intransigent, right-wing Brexiteers, in which centrists and Remainers are welcome so long as they shut up and do as they are told. A senior party figure told me, with classic English understatement, that this is “a ghastly mess.” “I’m not sure that Boris read the small print of the Cummings plan — this is the ultimate proof that one is a charlatan and the other a psychopath,” he said.

This looks like a catastrophe for Mr. Johnson. But the story may not be so simple. Mr. Cummings deliberately framed and precipitated the confrontation with Parliament, intending to lose the vote so that Mr. Johnson could instantly call an election as the people’s champion, the deliverer of Brexit, the supporter of no deal. He didn’t expect so many Tories to revolt or the opposition to derail his timetable for an election, but Mr. Cummings, who considers himself a master strategist, sees these as little more than skirmishes before the real fight.

He is unmoved by the indignation, the denunciations, the many enemies his contemptuous, bullying behavior has made. He calculates that pro-Brexit voters far from the financial and political elite in London will see the prime minister’s ruthlessness as proof he’s on their side against obstructive metropolitan Remainers. He believes his strategy, to win an election this autumn by making nakedly populist pledges and stealing votes from the insurgent, radical Brexit Party’s votes, can still work.

Yet one of the weakest links in this plan is the character of the leader, the man whom Mr. Cummings is using as the vehicle for his destructive strategy. If Mr. Cummings’s plan is to divide the Conservative Party from the inside out, Boris Johnson is his co-conspirator as his careless, indolent host. But the person who has been left utterly shellshocked by events is Mr. Johnson himself.

Where Mr. Cummings is a steely ideologue, Mr. Johnson doesn’t enjoy conflict; he wants power accompanied by endless applause. He never expected to have to expel senior members of his party; he expected them to be won over by his charm. He was humiliated by the scorn heaped on him in Parliament on Tuesday, where he was nervous and out of his depth. On Thursday came the most damning condemnation: His brother Jo Johnson, a moderate, resigned from the government, accusing Boris of damaging the national interest.

This was such a blow that sources close to the prime minister tell me that he cried when he heard the news. The speech he gave a couple of hours later, originally planned as the kickoff of an election campaign, was a delayed, confused and extraordinarily rambling mess. The qualities that Tory members were hoping for when they gave him the leadership — charisma, confidence, wit and sunny optimism — have been dangerously absent.

Mr. Cummings now faces a fight to keep Mr. Johnson on form and on track in the face of tremendous blowback from an outraged party. But he’s still the master; he calculates that Mr. Johnson can’t afford to lose him now that he has cut so many of his old allies out. Whether Mr. Johnson is heading for either triumph or disaster isn’t up to Mr. Johnson. His course is being set by Dominic Cummings.


Are you still talking about it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 30 Sep 19 - 11:41 AM

The link to a David Starkey interview is typical. Looking him up, here's a bit of information about him from Wikipedia:

    In August 2011, Starkey appeared as a guest on the BBC's Newsnight programme together with Owen Jones and Dreda Say Mitchell,[43] made during a discussion about the 2011 England riots. Starkey claimed that "the whites have become black", and that "a particular sort of violent, destructive, nihilistic, gangster culture has become the fashion".[44] The then-leader of the Labour Party, Ed Miliband, spoke about Starkey's remarks, saying "they are racist comments, frankly".[44] The author Toby Young, blogging in the Telegraph, defended Starkey by claiming that Starkey had been talking not about black culture in general.[45] Rod Liddle argued in support of the remarks.[46] Jones described the comments as "one of the ugliest episodes of the backlash",[47] claiming that "multiculturalism and ethnic groups have nothing to do with what happened".[48]

    Writing in The Daily Telegraph, Starkey argued his views had been distorted, he referred only to a "particular sort" of 'Black' culture, and that the "black educationalists" Tony Sewell and Katharine Birbalsingh supported the substance of his Newsnight comments.[nb 3][49] The broadcast regulator Ofcom said that Starkey's comments were part of "a serious and measured discussion", and took no action.[50]

    In a June 2012 debate, Starkey stated that a Rochdale sex trafficking gang had values "entrenched in the foothills of the Punjab or wherever it is", and was accused by his fellow panelist, writer Laurie Penny, of "playing xenophobia and national prejudice for laughs".[51]


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Sep 19 - 12:19 PM

David Starkey sees everything through a fug of authoritarian, Victorian stiff right-wingism. I won't argue that he doesn't know his history, but in all other regards he is as mad as a box of frogs. And he's incredibly abusive and rude to boot. He argues by shouting you down.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Sep 19 - 12:32 PM

Starkey is a snob of the worst kind - an apologist for all the worst aspects of British History
He's always reminder me of Reese Moog (or rather vise versa as I've been aware of Starkey far longer than we've been blessed with the presence of his alter ego
WORTH SKIPPING THROUGH THIS OVERLONG INTERVIEW FOR HIS CUT GLASS SNOBBERY
Awful-awful man to borrow his favourite phrase
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 30 Sep 19 - 12:39 PM

And what about Dominic Cummings? Are you still discussing him? What is he saying this week?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Sep 19 - 12:43 PM

It’s gone quiet because the Tories are all at their accursed annual mutual back-slapping exercise, The Conference, in Manchester.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Sep 19 - 12:56 PM

One day last week Cummings bragged that brexit would be a walk in the park compared with winning the 2016 referendum. The next day he pretended he'd never said it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Sep 19 - 12:58 PM

It may be true, though, at one level. The referendum needed to convince people of a proposition. This just needs to assure people that of course they were right, which is simpler.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Oct 19 - 04:38 AM

A rather odd fact is that Cummings has lived and worked in Russia and loves the place obsessively. And he thought that Iain Duncan-Smith was totally incompetent and that David Davis was lazy as hell and "as thick as mince." :-)

"Thick as mince." Heheh. I'll be using that one...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Oct 19 - 09:21 AM

WILL DO - HOW ABOUT THIS ?
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Oct 19 - 03:48 PM

Cummings accused of lying. Again.

Why does this not surprise me?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Oct 19 - 04:00 PM

That little ferret wouldn’t know truth if it bit him on the arse.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Oct 19 - 02:36 AM

”That little ferret wouldn’t know truth if it bit him on the arse.”

Of course, I meant weasel. Apologies to any ferrets who may have felt insulted.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Iains
Date: 05 Oct 19 - 05:10 AM

The master plan is working well. Parliament is being shown to be in defiance of the people.

Well exemplified by the fear they have of an Election.

I seem to remember reading that the EU can only deal with the government in Brexit negotiations.

This creates an air of uncertainty around the Benn bill.
It was driven through by an unaccountable rabble.
This coupled with the antics of the gloating hag of the supreme court
has destroyed confidence in the role of parliament, the speaker, and now the judiciary.
If brexit is not delivered Britain will be changed very rapidly as our basic institutions no longer attempt to represent democracy. 17.4 million will not be thwarted.

“Protest beyond the law is not a departure from democracy; it is absolutely essential to it.”
? Howard Zinn


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Oct 19 - 06:09 AM

Rather than distorted out of context quotes -
TRY HERE
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Oct 19 - 07:48 AM

BRILLIANT THUMBNAIL ANALYSIS OF POPULISM
HOW IT APPLIES TO BREXIT
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Iains
Date: 05 Oct 19 - 08:49 AM

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 05 Oct 19 - 07:48 AM
division of society into two camps, “the people” and “the elites”

I assume by putting up a link containing the above you fully support the elite telling you what to do.
   The commie force is strong with you.

I prefer democracy. The shenanigans around Brexit demonstrate beyond all doubt that the elite is trying to deny us of it.

Very kind of you to put up a link to demonstrate it so clearly!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Oct 19 - 09:02 AM

Full quote
HERE’S WHAT MAKES A FIGURE LIKE TRUMP A TEXT-BOOK POPULIST:
division of society into two camps, “the people” and “the elites”"

Your inability to control your bodily functions extends to your being unable to quote in context
This lapse into discussion with a self-imposed self-declared ignoramus Trump is over
Had my fun for the week


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Iains
Date: 05 Oct 19 - 10:44 AM

Your inability to control your bodily functions extends to your being unable to quote in context
Little jimmy displaying his idiocy again.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Oct 19 - 10:53 AM

And our resident moron displaying his inability to respond intelligently
Game, set and match - again
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Iains
Date: 05 Oct 19 - 12:31 PM

The only intelligent response to idiocy is to mock. Intelligent debate requires a certain degree of intelligence to initiate it. Do you see a problem here?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Oct 19 - 01:05 PM

Jim!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Oct 19 - 03:06 PM

Dave !!!

Just having fun prodding our pet moron while you all were off somewhere else
Can't let me out of your sight for a minute, can you :-)
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Iains
Date: 06 Oct 19 - 03:47 AM

Proverbs 17:28.
or to put it in the vernacular so even the 'challenged' can understand:

Better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than to open it and remove all doubt.

I fail to see why you insist on constantly polluting these brexit threads.
You are now disenfranchised in the UK so your opinions are as meaningless as your vote.
You are simply here as a troublemaker and troll.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Oct 19 - 05:05 AM

Johnson to the Queenie "Sack me if you dare"
I wonder hos the Royal bum-kissers will react to that open act of 'treason'
Perhaps our resident flag-waggers might emlighten us
DAMNED TRAITOR - I SAY!!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Oct 19 - 06:09 AM

******* BRILLIANT !
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Iains
Date: 08 Oct 19 - 06:43 AM

Hot off the press:
“Merkel said that if Germany wanted to leave the EU they could do it no problem but the UK cannot leave without leaving Northern Ireland behind in the customs union and in full alignment forever.

“She said that Ireland is the government’s special problem and Ireland must at least have a veto on Northern Ireland leaving.

“Merkel said that the Prime Minister should tell northern Ireland that it must stay in full alignment forever, but that even this would not eliminate customs issues.

“It was a very useful clarifying moment in all sorts of ways. If this represents a new established position, then it means a deal is essentially impossible, not just now but for ever.


The last time Germany annexed territory it all ended rather badly.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Oct 19 - 08:33 AM

The Junta has just announced that they have recieved a letter from Tuske saying thatt Johnson's deal was designed not to fail from the beginning
Johnson's lap dog has confirmed the truth of that by announcing they will breach parliamentary democracy and crash out at the end of the month
The next step will quite likely to be accompained my the sound of Jackboots kicjg down the front doors of anybody who gets in their way led by the unelected Dominic Cummings
Jim carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Iains
Date: 08 Oct 19 - 10:02 AM

The Junta has just announced that they have recieved a letter from Tuske saying thatt Johnson's deal was designed not to fail from the beginning

What a bizarre post. Can anyone understand what the laddie is on about.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Oct 19 - 10:41 AM

To fail - which of course it was
Obvious to those who have an answer and don't have to hide behind typos, of course
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Iains
Date: 08 Oct 19 - 11:06 AM

What an outstandingly ridiculous assertion!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Oct 19 - 12:18 PM

THE ANSWER LIES HERE
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Oct 19 - 12:22 PM

OR HERE
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit 'Take Back Control' D Cummings
From: Iains
Date: 08 Oct 19 - 01:21 PM

We seem to have mislaid one of little jimmies posts, so why leave my response hanging? be more sensible to delete both.


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