Looking to ID an Irish tune

Subject: Looking to ID an Irish tune
From: TheRamblinReilly
Date: 08 Sep 19 - 08:32 PM

I stumbled across this lovely hornpipe tune on youtube today; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_27Hbiwsqek

I cant for the life of me find a name or sheet music that matches how it sounds.

The video's description mentions "Anthony Davis, album: Perfect Timing", but searching for that brings up nothing of value, and while the comments seem to suggest it's related to "Paddy Cronin's Hornpipe", I still cant find the author or any other publications of this specific version. Hoping one of y'all might have a lead.

Subject: RE: Looking to ID an Irish tune
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 02:43 AM

Sounds like something he made up himself.

Subject: RE: Looking to ID an Irish tune
From: Helen
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 05:41 AM

Ok, I'm going to go out on a limb and make a guess here that there is no specific title for the tune.

a) The track listing for Anthony Davis: Perfect Timing CD Track Listing shows mostly tune types and not many specific tune names, and also the specific tune names are identified as "Trad" but there is no identifying information for the other tracks. The non-specific tune names are plural, "reels", "slip jigs", "hornpipes" etc so I think it is safe to assume that the tunes are a generic example of a type of tune:


    Anthony Davis - 01. Reels @ 113 (03:39)
    Anthony Davis - 02. Slip Jigs @ 113 (02:54)
    Anthony Davis - 03. Heavy Jigs @ 113 (03:47)
    Anthony Davis - 04. Hornpipes @ 113 (04:52)
    Anthony Davis - 05. Reels @ 113 (03:40)
    Anthony Davis - 06. Slip Jigs @ 113 (02:55)
    Anthony Davis - 07. Heavy Jigs @ 113 (03:47)
    Anthony Davis - 08. Hornpipes @ 113 (04:53)
    Anthony Davis - 09. Light Jigs @ 115 (03:36)
    Anthony Davis - 10. Beginners Reels (02:16)
    Anthony Davis - 11. Single Jigs (Hop) (03:17)
    Anthony Davis - 12. St. Patrick's Day (Trad) (00:59)
    Anthony Davis - 13. The Blackbird (Trad) (01:10)
    Anthony Davis - 14. Job of Journeywork (Trad) (01:12)
    Anthony Davis - 15. Garden of Daisies (Trad) (01:16)
    Anthony Davis - 16. King Of The Fairies (Trad) (01:21)
    Anthony Davis - 17. Reels @ 113 (03:23)

b) Also, a quick skimming of the comments on the video page shows a lot of people asking the name of the tune but getting no reply, and a couple of comments about Irish dancing, so, given the name of the CD/album is "Perfect Timing" I am guessing that Anthony Davis has compiled an album which has a number of tunes played in perfect timing to make it easier for the dancers. I know from what some musicians have told me, that dancers must have the tunes played in perfect timing otherwise it makes it very difficult to predict where the tune is going and to dance in correct time to the tune.

If you want to know if there is a specific tune name for the Hornpipe then you may be able to contact Anthony Davis.

I'm happy to be proven wrong. I'm just putting a few bits of information together and proposing a hypothesis.

Subject: RE: Looking to ID an Irish tune
From: TheRamblinReilly
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 05:52 AM

That's the unfortunate conclusion I came to as well after I saw that list. I find it very odd that this Anthony Davis guy doesn't have anywhere you can actually buy his music from anymore. It appears that at one point his music was on amazon and itunes, but the links are now broken and searching on those stores yields no results.

If anyone familiar with this musician reads this, please let me know if there's any resources I've missed for contacting him.

Subject: RE: Looking to ID an Irish tune
From: Nick
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 06:00 AM

Try The Session too which is probably more tune oriented than here. Usually found answers to most tune related queries there.

Subject: RE: Looking to ID an Irish tune
From: Nick
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 06:06 AM

If you want to contact him I think this is the person you are looking for - Anthony Davis on linked in

Or you might contact through here. As he is a composer my guess is it may be self penned - Anthony Davis

Might be the wrong bloke of course!

Subject: RE: Looking to ID an Irish tune
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 06:07 AM

Not trying to sound contrary or anything but you have the tune right there haven't you? It's a bit of an odd makey uppy tune but shouldn't be   that hard to play after hearing it a few times. Get out your C whistle (or anything at all that will play in C and F) and have a go.

Subject: RE: Looking to ID an Irish tune
From: Nick
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 06:42 AM

I think Helen is spot on. It's for dancers. It is very precise and purposeful rather than having much life in it. If you look at Irish Dancing Girl's other videos which have the same album referenced it's for practice. It doesn't have life and lift to it. Tunes are nice but a bit ploddy - because I think that is the aim

Subject: RE: Looking to ID an Irish tune
From: Helen
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 07:20 AM

Peter, the question in the original post was just for the name of the tune. Whether the tune can be picked up without sheet music was not the issue, as far as I can see. But I might be wrong.

Nick, I tend to agree with you about the mundane nature of the tune. A bit ploddy, no life, no lift and no lilt. But a useful tool for achieving the aim of perfecting precise dancing.

Subject: RE: Looking to ID an Irish tune
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 08:10 AM

The OP was trying to locate sheetmusic. It isn't a big leap to assume he intended learning it.

Subject: RE: Looking to ID an Irish tune
From: Nick
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 10:44 AM

This might help a little - it is VERY VERY rough but may give some hints of the tune. You will need to add bits and pieces in. It was only a five minute job

Tune PDF

Tune midi file

Subject: RE: Looking to ID an Irish tune
From: gillymor
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 11:23 AM

Some of the commentators mentioned Paddy Cronin's . Not a bad tune when played at a brisker tempo.

Subject: RE: Looking to ID an Irish tune
From: GUEST,Modette
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 12:31 PM

What a truly awful piece of music! It's about as Irish as tortilla. Paddy Cronin's probably spinning in his grave at the notion that he might be connected to this.

Subject: RE: Looking to ID an Irish tune
From: gillymor
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 12:37 PM

I agree that the tune linked in the OP suffers from a lackluster performance but the tune I linked to at 11:23 A.M. is top notch, IMO, whether or not the 2 are related. It lays pretty easy on the mandolin and Off to California follows it quite nicely.

Subject: RE: Looking to ID an Irish tune
From: GUEST,Modette
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 01:09 PM

Yes, but a tune's nothing unless it sounds good on the fiddle or the pipes.

Subject: RE: Looking to ID an Irish tune
From: gillymor
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 01:14 PM

That's very open-minded.

Subject: RE: Looking to ID an Irish tune
From: GUEST,Modette
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 01:21 PM

I'm glad you agree.

Subject: RE: Looking to ID an Irish tune
From: gillymor
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 01:25 PM

Hey, I got the makings of a nice little tune set from this thread and you got a chance to display your superiority. Everyone's a winner.

Subject: RE: Looking to ID an Irish tune
From: GUEST,Modette
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 01:36 PM

You don't get Irish music do you? Get away and read some Breathnach.

Subject: RE: Looking to ID an Irish tune
From: gillymor
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 01:55 PM

I may not be an ITM expert but I have no problem detecting a musical snob. Adios.

Subject: RE: Looking to ID an Irish tune
From: TheRamblinReilly
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 03:58 PM

Modette; While it would appear that you believe yourself to be the only one who's heard or can judge what good Irish music is while the rest of us musical peasants look towards individuals like you for guidance, I can assure you that isnt the case. My father is a first generation Irish immigrant and having attended many an Irish wedding and festivity, I've heard alot of GOOD Irish music myself, and I surely "get Irish music".

While I will concede that this tune isn't a masterpiece worthy of the highest accolades, it is a nice little tune that's got a cute and happy feeling if you play it at 1.5 speed.
It is my opinion that a musical piece has done it's job when it has conveyed an emotion or message to it's listener, and for me it has done so without need for flare or fancy. If for you it has not, that is very well fine, but I ask that you evaluate for what the purpose you listen to music be, and take your negativity elsewhere. Have a good day :)


To everyone else in this thread; Helen, Nick, and gillymor, Thank you very much for the resources you've so kindly provided. I will make an attempt to contact the composer and see if I can acquire an original sheet, and should I be successful, I will be posting it here (with permission of course) for the sake of completeness.

Subject: RE: Looking to ID an Irish tune
From: Helen
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 11:54 PM

Thanks, TheRamblinReilly. I hope you can find the composer.

I just looked at the video link page again and realised that I had not clicked the reply links so there were some replies to the questions about the name of the tune.

These are the suggestions:
Paddy Dunn's
Paddy Cronin's Hornpipe
or "A revamp of Paddy Cronin's Hornpipe"
Charles Haxell hornpipe

In the second part of the tune where the banjo(?) joins in it reminds me very much of some of the traditional tunes gathered in Australia by John Meredith and Hugh Anderson from a lot of older bush musicians and a large number of those tunes were played for bush dances.

Subject: RE: Looking to ID an Irish tune
From: gillymor
Date: 10 Sep 19 - 09:01 AM

You can compare midis of the tunes Helen listed at the session, as Nick mentioned above.

Subject: RE: Looking to ID an Irish tune
From: clueless don
Date: 10 Sep 19 - 09:43 AM

Seems pretty definitely to be a recording aimed at competitive Irish step dancers. Recorded at "Oireachtas tempo" rather than traditional tempo, though possibly at the fast end of the Oireachtas tempo range.

Helen, your question mark ("... where the banjo(?) joins in ...") is well-taken. I can't tell for sure (my ear isn't that good), but I think it might be a banjo-voiced synthesizer.

Don

Subject: RE: Looking to ID an Irish tune
From: Helen
Date: 10 Sep 19 - 03:24 PM

Don, that makes sense. Normally I'd identify a banjo at a hundred paces but this time it was a bit iffy.

Off topic: Don't get me wrong about the banjo. I like the fingerpicking style a lot, but some banjo playing styles can be overwhelming, even relentless at times - very much depending on the player, however. I'm sure gillymor's long suffering Significant Other can sympathise with that. LOL (sorry gillymor, I couldn't resist that one! As a great Aussie once said in song, "don't ever let a chance go by".)

The hornpipe in question has a certain charm, but it reminds me of an incident in our session group. For some decades we have been playing Rosbif Waltz (scroll down to title), thanks to Mudcatter Alan Day for sending it to me all those years ago.

It has an unusual and interesting tune and rhythm, inspired by a French tune I think. A few years ago, one of the members of our session group excitedly started playing a variation of the tune which she had learned from a friend and asked me if I liked it. Without hesitation I said no, because all of the interesting bits had been ironed out of it and it had become a mundane tune and rhythm. Like taking a spiky sound file and smoothing the spikes out of it to make it more like Muzak than music. It was almost like a completely different tune but with the same chord progression. Rosbif Waltz has been one of my favourite tunes ever since I first heard it. I'll stick with the original, thanks.

So, although the hornpipe in question has some charm, for me it is the lilt and variation or even bending of rhythm which makes a tune more interesting. Having said that, the hornpipe under discussion is a specific tool built (we suspect) for a specific purpose and using those criteria it splendidly does the job for which it was designed.

Subject: RE: Looking to ID an Irish tune
From: gillymor
Date: 11 Sep 19 - 06:19 AM

Yes Helen, sadly my wife lacks the ability to appreciate fine banjo music (no oxymoron there) and more recently the dulcet tones of an electric guitar run through an over-driven amp.

Subject: RE: Looking to ID an Irish tune
From: Helen
Date: 11 Sep 19 - 02:39 PM

Oh the poor woman. Please extend to her my deepest sympathies. Perhaps you need a garage studio - about a mile from home.

Subject: RE: Looking to ID an Irish tune
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Sep 19 - 02:53 PM

"Yes Helen, sadly my wife lacks the ability to appreciate fine banjo music"
Tell her there's a permanent welcome for her in West Clare where musicians (sic) are body-searched for banjos, spoons and bodhrans before they can cross the border - not universally appreciated but some don't mind the body-searches too much !

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Looking to ID an Irish tune
From: Nick
Date: 11 Sep 19 - 07:24 PM

People dance because they are happy

Subject: RE: Looking to ID an Irish tune
From: gillymor
Date: 11 Sep 19 - 07:48 PM

Made me happy too, thanks for posting that.

Subject: RE: Looking to ID an Irish tune
From: Helen
Date: 13 Mar 20 - 07:10 AM

I wonder if any more information came to light on this tune.

TheRamblinReilly was going to try to contact the composer.

Subject: RE: Looking to ID an Irish tune
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 13 Mar 20 - 10:05 AM

As a local musician here says- 'if you know the names of all the tunes you play, you don't know enough tunes'

As for more digs at un-Irish instruments, anyone who misses the point of spoons playing should listen to 'Forbidden Fruit' by Nina Simone- try youtube & marvel at the rhythm

Subject: RE: Looking to ID an Irish tune
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 13 Mar 20 - 10:14 AM

I'd thank you for that quotation, Jim, since I thought it means that I now know enough airs; then I realised that I was, once, able to remember all their names....

Still got the "graces", though.

Subject: RE: Looking to ID an Irish tune
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Mar 20 - 06:40 AM

interesting , peoples different opinions on hornpipes, at least he does not make them sound like reels.
Hornpipes seemed to have originated in the uk, england and scotland, many written by james hill a scotsman living in england.i love the way most scottrish people play hornpipes with swing and lift ,
he is playing them dotted but lacking in a bit of articulation and lift, however i have heard much worse versions of hornpipes. reels are not hornpipes, neither are hornpipes reels.
speed will vary on for what purpose they are When playing for dancing, playing for dances like belfast duck or nottingham swing they are medium with swing and lift and to some degree dot, for solo step dancing much slower and dotted.
they are faster and less dotted for irish set dancing, i have found tunes like love will you marry me and keel row some say the devils dead work better, tunes that are inb my opinion more like flings with less notes in them, that has been my experiejce for playing for dancing over many years.
this guys problem is he is a little mechanical, he might be better live and playing for dancing. playing for dancing requires watching the dancers and adjusting speed to suit them.

Subject: RE: Looking to ID an Irish tune
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Mar 20 - 07:01 AM

i must know well over a hundred tunes and i know the names of of 99 per cent, partly because i keep a book with a list and i practise them all regularly to keep them in the head, and becaus i enjoy playing them all occasionally i might forget a turn of a tune and this is where sties like the session are useful for refreshing the memory

Subject: RE: Looking to ID an Irish tune
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Mar 20 - 07:25 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYvU7oBBgKA how to play for step dancing tyhe next is an example of the spped and tempo fir irish sets when they ask for a hornpipe
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9ajT32Fb-k here it is for the hornpipe dance belfast duck
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uu-Pis2rPZw

Subject: RE: Looking to ID an Irish tune
From: clueless don
Date: 16 Mar 20 - 07:14 AM

Sandman, you wrote "... at least he does not make them sound like reels." A problem (at least, I consider it a problem) with a lot of recorded music for step dance practice/performance is that the musician(s) make hornpipes sound like treble jigs.

Don

Subject: RE: Looking to ID an Irish tune
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Mar 20 - 01:58 PM

do you mean what we call slip jigs 9/8 time

Subject: RE: Looking to ID an Irish tune
From: clueless don
Date: 18 Mar 20 - 06:45 AM

A treble jig, in Irish step dancing, is a jig (i.e. a double jig, in 6/8 time) played at a slower tempo, and to which the dancers dance with the hard shoes.

When hornpipes, on recordings for Irish step dance practice/performance, are played at a slower tempo ("Oireachtas tempo"), the musicians will often play them in a 6/8 or 12/8 rhythm, instead of the dotted hornpipe rhythm.

Subject: RE: Looking to ID an Irish tune
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Mar 20 - 03:10 AM

dotted hornpie is my prefernce

Subject: RE: Looking to ID an Irish tune
From: clueless don
Date: 19 Mar 20 - 06:37 AM

mine too

Subject: RE: Looking to ID an Irish tune
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 17 Sep 22 - 10:25 AM

check
https://m.facebook.com/antondavis
/Arranger at Musical Director/Arranger of Irish Celtic the Show

Subject: RE: Looking to ID an Irish tune
From: Helen
Date: 17 Sep 22 - 02:19 PM

I tried the video link in the original post from three years ago and this is the message:

"Video unavailable. This video is no longer available due to a copyright claim by Anthony Davis."

I don't know any more details about that.

I also listened to Paddy Cronin's which gillymor provided a link for on 09 Sep 19 - 11:23 AM and it sounds very similar to the MIDI file which was posted by Nick on 09 Sep 19 - 10:44 AM.

Subject: RE: Looking to ID an Irish tune
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Sep 22 - 10:12 PM

I'm glad that Modette signed in as a guest, rather than as a member.