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Enquiry: Re: Horses Brawl

SPB-Cooperator 11 Sep 19 - 05:33 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 11 Sep 19 - 05:55 AM
Mick Pearce (MCP) 11 Sep 19 - 06:06 AM
SPB-Cooperator 11 Sep 19 - 06:27 AM
GUEST,jim bainbridge 11 Sep 19 - 07:56 AM
GUEST,Starship 11 Sep 19 - 08:13 AM
Gordon Jackson 11 Sep 19 - 08:36 AM
GUEST,jim bainbridge 11 Sep 19 - 03:22 PM
GUEST,Evadne 12 Sep 19 - 02:06 AM
BobL 12 Sep 19 - 03:19 AM
Mr Red 12 Sep 19 - 03:40 AM
SPB-Cooperator 12 Sep 19 - 05:41 AM
leeneia 12 Sep 19 - 09:30 AM
Tattie Bogle 12 Sep 19 - 01:25 PM
GUEST,Jon 12 Sep 19 - 03:20 PM
GUEST,ripov 12 Sep 19 - 05:25 PM
GUEST,ripov 12 Sep 19 - 05:33 PM
Jack Campin 12 Sep 19 - 06:34 PM
GUEST,Jerry 13 Sep 19 - 02:38 AM
John P 13 Sep 19 - 12:35 PM
GUEST 13 Sep 19 - 02:57 PM
GUEST,ripov 14 Sep 19 - 07:06 PM
Mr Red 16 Sep 19 - 04:51 AM
John P 17 Sep 19 - 11:04 AM
Gordon Jackson 17 Sep 19 - 11:10 AM
Jack Campin 17 Sep 19 - 11:39 AM
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Subject: Enquiry: Re: Horses Brawl
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 11 Sep 19 - 05:33 AM

Is the flattened note in the C part of Horses Brawl - which sounds good - what is actually written, or does the note get changed for effect?


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Subject: RE: Enquiry: Re: Horses Brawl
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 11 Sep 19 - 05:55 AM

Branle des chevaux started doing the rounds in folk circles after its inclusion in Mart Heijmans' 'Pijpersboek', published in 1985. I suppose it must have been around before that but most versions played today would go back to that, one way or another.

The answer to your question 'what's written' lies there I think unless a known composer can be found for it.


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Subject: RE: Enquiry: Re: Horses Brawl
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 11 Sep 19 - 06:06 AM

It's in the original. You can download a copy of Arbeau's Orchesographie from IMSLP: Orchesographie (click the arrow next to Complete Book to download it; You can also get the notation for all the tunes from the other download options).

The B. des Chevaulx (Branle des Chevaux - Horse's Brawl) is on pp177-179 of the pdf (No. 88 at top of page). The music for the 3rd part is the bit on it's side on the 2nd and 3rd of those pages - turn the book anticlockwise 90 degrees. The flat is marked, as is the f# later.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Enquiry: Re: Horses Brawl
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 11 Sep 19 - 06:27 AM

Nice to know I have been getting it right all these years!


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Subject: RE: Enquiry: Re: Horses Brawl
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 11 Sep 19 - 07:56 AM

is this the tune which always makes me think of Wilson, Keppel & Betty?


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Subject: RE: Enquiry: Re: Horses Brawl
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 11 Sep 19 - 08:13 AM

It's a beautiful piece of music.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSPZTbvUmxI


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Subject: RE: Enquiry: Re: Horses Brawl
From: Gordon Jackson
Date: 11 Sep 19 - 08:36 AM

On the 1977 Albion Dance Band album, The Prospect Before, The Horse's Brawl is played with B naturals not B flats in the third part, and it sounds just as good. But yes, in Orchesographie they are B flats - I play it both ways, for variation.


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Subject: RE: Enquiry: Re: Horses Brawl
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 11 Sep 19 - 03:22 PM

yes, that's the one- where's my nightie?


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Subject: RE: Enquiry: Re: Horses Brawl
From: GUEST,Evadne
Date: 12 Sep 19 - 02:06 AM

The problem comes when not everyone in the session agrees on the various sharps and flats.


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Subject: RE: Enquiry: Re: Horses Brawl
From: BobL
Date: 12 Sep 19 - 03:19 AM

The problem comes when not everyone has the accidental in question or the corresponding chord.
This particularly affects melodeonists.


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Subject: RE: Enquiry: Re: Horses Brawl
From: Mr Red
Date: 12 Sep 19 - 03:40 AM

In sessions the tune that usually gets played (Melodeon excepted) is what I ask for as "Horses Brawl in the key of GG" amid groans (correct response - thanyou) but hidden in there is the real joke, it should be in GG or to be more accurate but still phonetic Gg.

The follow-on tune is often la Morresque - is that - "Hobby Horses Brawl"?

I'll get my pig's bladder..............


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Subject: RE: Enquiry: Re: Horses Brawl
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 12 Sep 19 - 05:41 AM

Bobl - one method and that takes a bit of practice is to miss out the note - which could also be problematic if playing the tune solo or if nobody in the session has a chromatic instrument. - the problem I have as a whistle player is running out of notes in a tune and having to pause, jump up/down an octave or find another note in the related chord (sessions), or commit heresy by changing the tune slightly (solo).


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Subject: RE: Enquiry: Re: Horses Brawl
From: leeneia
Date: 12 Sep 19 - 09:30 AM

Thanks for the link, Starship.


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Subject: RE: Enquiry: Re: Horses Brawl
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 12 Sep 19 - 01:25 PM

No problem with the B flats on my B/C melodeon!


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Subject: RE: Enquiry: Re: Horses Brawl
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 12 Sep 19 - 03:20 PM

To me, (usually tenor banjo or mandolin), it's one you play whichever way the session goes.

The 3rd part of the Flogging Reel seems to me to be another that can go either way.


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Subject: RE: Enquiry: Re: Horses Brawl
From: GUEST,ripov
Date: 12 Sep 19 - 05:25 PM

A deeper discussion is in Wikipedia under "musica ficta", where it is explained in lots of words that basically a good musician either knows the appropriate "inflection" or makes it up as s/he goes along.
Remember as well the notes played "in the olden days" were in modal "scales" probably using just intervals pitched from whatever "A" they were using, and so cannot be reproduced easily using instruments set up in equal temperament.
It is possible, though, that this wouldn't be noticed after a few pints of ale.


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Subject: RE: Enquiry: Re: Horses Brawl
From: GUEST,ripov
Date: 12 Sep 19 - 05:33 PM

A simpler idea is the "tierce de picardie", where in a piece in a minor key, the final repeat ends on a major chord, often at the whim of the performer.


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Subject: RE: Enquiry: Re: Horses Brawl
From: Jack Campin
Date: 12 Sep 19 - 06:34 PM

Those B flats are not ficta. It's a straightforward change of mode. No ambiguity at all.

Arbeau gives two branles that have horse-stepping movements. Anybody these days do the other one, the Clog Branle?


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Subject: RE: Enquiry: Re: Horses Brawl
From: GUEST,Jerry
Date: 13 Sep 19 - 02:38 AM

I’ve always assumed it was the preponderance of diatonic melodeon players in sessions that has commonly sharpened that flattened third note. All others players typically start glancing around the room just before that part to gauge which we are going for, whilst they just brazenly steam on.


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Subject: RE: Enquiry: Re: Horses Brawl
From: John P
Date: 13 Sep 19 - 12:35 PM

I didn't know that the flatted third at the start of the C part is ever in question. Is this just diatonic players not making the appropriate modifications?

A change I've heard is the penultimate note played as a flatted seventh rather than a major seventh. I'd put it down to more diatonic disability, but the people I've heard doing it were playing chromatic hurdy-gurdies.


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Subject: RE: Enquiry: Re: Horses Brawl
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Sep 19 - 02:57 PM

When I started going t sessions in the early seventies,the notes were never flattened (Is that the version in Playford?). It seemed to change after Malicorne recorded their version with the flattened notes.
Now it goes all mushy in sessions when we reach that bit.

Splott Man


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Subject: RE: Enquiry: Re: Horses Brawl
From: GUEST,ripov
Date: 14 Sep 19 - 07:06 PM

Oh Jack don't take on so! I only meant to suggest that it wasn't always necessary (or indeed possible, as some have pointed out) to play the notes as written, That's a very victorian concept.

Anyway-

Arbeau's dots may be the earliest version of this tune we have; but surely only represent how it was played in the ale-house where the tune was collected, or perhaps the interpretation of copyists? Which rather takes us back to the original question.

And without the discord (whether between instruments, or posters on mudcat). would it be folk music?


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Subject: RE: Enquiry: Re: Horses Brawl
From: Mr Red
Date: 16 Sep 19 - 04:51 AM

Add a D part and you has Jazz


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Subject: RE: Enquiry: Re: Horses Brawl
From: John P
Date: 17 Sep 19 - 11:04 AM

I don't have a problem with tunes mutating over time, or with diatonic instruments having a slightly different version. What I don't like about this particular one is that staying major in the C part of the Bransle de Chevaux sucks. I mean, really, it takes away a big part of the point of the tune for me.


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Subject: RE: Enquiry: Re: Horses Brawl
From: Gordon Jackson
Date: 17 Sep 19 - 11:10 AM

Have you heard the Albion Dance Band's version? I think it's superb. That's why I play it both ways!


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Subject: RE: Enquiry: Re: Horses Brawl
From: Jack Campin
Date: 17 Sep 19 - 11:39 AM

The C part goes along with an unusual bit of footwork, imitating horses stamping. Makes sense for the tune to be of different character.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rt40grKHkro


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