 sj |
||
|
||
Tune Req: Derry Down
DigiTrad:
RED IRON ORE
Related thread:
(DTStudy) Origins: Red Iron Ore / Derry down, down (33)
|
|
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: Derry Down From: GUEST,Wm Date: 16 Sep 19 - 06:06 PM Here's an English instance from the late nineteenth century, published in Volume 1 (July 1879) of The Pearl, apparently an erotic magazine published privately in London under the mark of "the Society of Vice." The Wanton Lass, which I am linking instead of pasting as it is NSFW. |
|
Subject: Lyr Add: BILL WATTS From: GUEST,Wm Date: 16 Sep 19 - 07:23 PM Here's a Canadian logging example printed in Larry Gorman: The Man Who Made the Songs (Edward D. Ives, first printed 1964), recorded from Alden F. Mace of Southwest Harbor and attributed to Gorman, who was famed for his bitingly satirical song-making. Date of composition would fall in the 1880s or 90s. BILL WATTS You jolly brook drivers who drive by the day, Likewise pay attention to all that I say; Take my advice and never take charge Of a crew of greenhorns or a leaky old barge. Derry down, down, oh down derry down. It was upon Tuesday, the first day of May; As long as I live I'll remember the day. I took my whole crew up to Rocky Pond In full expectation the ice would be gone. Derry down, etc. When I got there my heart it grew sad; The task was enough to drive a man mad. All four of the booms they were broken and gone, And all of the logs drifted over the pond. Derry down, etc. At length we got ready, a rigging prepared, With much difficulty got some of them snared; Consisting of cedar, peeled hemlock and spruce; On Friday the fourth, we began to sluice. Derry down, etc. Before we h'isted I sent up to Hen To send me down ten of his best peavey men, For those that we had were both useless and green, But jolly Jim Coffey and Ruel McKeen. Derry down, etc. There were six men from Elllsworth came up on a team, In haste they were stationed the length of the stream; They was well-able drivers, full worthy of hire, They could handle a peavey or fight against fire. Derry down, etc. For forty-odd years I've been known in this place, The name that I go by is Old Dirty Face; I never yet washed it but once in my life, That was the first time I went courting my wife. Derry down, etc. When I get to Ellsworth, I must have a wash; My face it is covered with gurry and moss. The water I'll bottle to poison the botts— Now what do you think of your friend Mr. Watts? Derry down, etc. |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: Derry Down From: Kevin Werner Date: 16 Sep 19 - 07:29 PM There's another Scottish song that uses this tune, "Will i the Lum". Here are two recordings of the song, it appears to be quite rare: First: http://tobarandualchais.co.uk/en/fullrecord/39412 Second: https://sounds.bl.uk/World-and-traditional-music/Peter-Kennedy-Collection/025M-C The song starts at 1:04 in the recording. The first song is "Wee Cooper o' Fife", after that comes "Will i the Lum" whith the beautiful Down, Derry Down chorus. It is a variant of the song that is known as "Will the Weaver" (Roud No. 432) in the US. I've been searching for songs that make use of this tune quite extensively, but there are not many recent recordings of it from Britain as far as I know. Here are two fragments of Well Sold The Cow sung to this tune, also from Scotland: First http://tobarandualchais.co.uk/en/fullrecord/37334 Second: http://tobarandualchais.co.uk/en/fullrecord/19970 Other than that I only know of Bob Lewis' song, "The Cobbler", as sung on "The Painfull Plough" (2003) and also on "Two Bobs' Worth (MTCD374)" (2017). A. L. Lloyd sang his arrangement of "The Old Bachelor" from Greig-Duncan to the tune, but you never know with Lloyd. Finally, Ewan MacColl sung "The Coal-Owner and the Pitman's Wife" to this tune, but I don't think there is much traditional about this song. Apart from that I know of several songs recorded in Canada and the Adirondack region that use the tune. King John and The Bishop comes to mind. There's a splendid, but sadly poorly sounding recording of it in the Flanders Collection: https://ia801209.us.archive.org/32/items/HHFBC_tapes_D70B/D70B%20sideA.mp3 The song starts at 37:00 on the tape. Hmm, the Irish song Drimindown, where a man laments the loss of his cow does not use the Down Derry Down chorus, but the tune is very, very similar, at least in the Canadian version recorded by Helen Creighton from Mr. Ernest Sellick. You should be able to listen to the recording on youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUNK1rIKUtw Here's a fragment of John Hopper's Hill sung by Warde Ford of Wisconsin: https://www.loc.gov/item/2017701449/ "A Comical Ditty", sung by Almeda Riddle on "More Ballads and Hymns from the Ozarks" (1976) also uses a form of the tune and chorus, but it sounds rather different, I've uploaded the recording to youtube so you can give it a listen for yourself: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KeVIRLBYA3w You already know about Beaver River and Miner Hill, as sung by Ted Ashlaw. I was going to link the recordings, but sadly, the website adirondackmusic.org is no longer working for me. There's also "The E. C. Roberts / Red Iron Ore" as sung by Stanley Baby on "Songs of the Great Lakes" (1964): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inVD1Vg9_uA The Ballad of Blue Mountain Lake, or Loon Lake also uses the tune, various recordings of it are in the Flanders collection. Also "The Aviator's Hymn", as sung by Yankee John Galusha, another Adirondack singer. Some versions of "Little Brown Bulls" also use the Derry Down chorus, but the tune sounds different to me. And there is also a quite strange song in the Sidney Robertson Cowel Wisconsin Folksong Collection called The Pickled Jew or The Barrel of Pork that uses the tune: https://search.library.wisc.edu/digital/AVDTDHMVLMQ2DW8T The humour of the song is in bad taste from a modern point of view, but the tune as sung by Robert Walker is splendid. Anyways, those are all I could think of on the top of my head. I'm sure there are many more rather recent songs in Canada/Northern US that use the tune as it was very popular in the lumber camps. |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: Derry Down From: Kevin Werner Date: 16 Sep 19 - 07:55 PM Oh, it's getting quite late and I'm a little tired. I apologize for any spelling mistakes made. (I think I confused sung and sang. English is not my first language, sometimes I make silly mistakes like that). I happened to see your enquiry about the Down Derry Down tune and thought "wait a moment, this is one I should know a thing or two about." The tune took my fancy when I first heard it in a variant of Drimindown, so I started looking for as many field recordings of it as I could find. Next time I'll take my time to proof read before I click on "submit message". I also remembered a version of The Three Ravens from the Flanders collection that uses what could be considered a variant of the chorus: https://ia801203.us.archive.org/25/items/HHFBC_tapes_C09A/C09A%20sideB.mp3 Here it goes "Hi-Dum, Di-Dum Derry Hi Ho". I know that another similar British text from John Holmes, Round-hay, Derbyshire, used Down Derry Down in its place. The tune is different, though. It is the first song on the tape, it starts at 1:12. It is remarkable for being one of the few recent texts to make mention of a lady full of grief who for the love of the slain soldier/knight died. Now this is completely unrelated to your enquiry, but say, you wouldn't happen to know of any songs from "recent" oral tradition that use the tune "Packington's Pound"? It was a popular ballad tune in its time, but other than a bawdy version of Brian O Lin, called "Brinzi O' Flynn" recorded by Sam Eskin in 1942 from a British seaman in San Francisco I have not been able to find any trace of it in modern tradition. I was reminded of that tune while writing this. If it doesn't belong here I can also create a new topic for that. I just thought it couldn't hurt to ask. |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: Derry Down From: Lighter Date: 16 Sep 19 - 08:15 PM It seems to me that the song "Droylsden Wakes" in Williams & Lloyd's _Penguin Book of English Folk Songs_ goes to a tune readily identifiable as "Packington's Pound." Snippet of Ewan MacColl singing it: https://tinyurl.com/yyyrwqyd I've never met with any version of Brian O'Linn that went to the Packington tune; maybe it was unique to the "Brinzi" versions, which are extremely rare. |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: Derry Down From: Kevin Werner Date: 16 Sep 19 - 08:40 PM Thank you for that, Lighter. That is definitely a variant of the tune. I've expected there to be songs that use the tune, but I was unable to find any. Shame, that no field (sound) recording of "Droylsden Wakes" seems to exist. As for Brinzi O Flynn, that was printed in Randolph/Legman's Unprintable Ozark Folksongs. Here are the respective pages: First: https://i.imgur.com/eiYEX8H.jpg Second: https://i.imgur.com/zvvoMjh.jpg Third: https://i.imgur.com/weW0AfW.jpg Last: https://i.imgur.com/zCihqdI.jpg There also a second text there, Thumble O'Lynn, also set to the Packington tune. I have never encountered another Brinzi version apart from the one given in this book. There's a Tombolin text in the Flanders collection that was sung to a variant of the Greensleeves tune. I have heard it as Barney O'Lynn, but that was sung to the tune "Irish Washerwoman". The tune I heard the most was however When She Cam Ben She Bobbit / Laird O Cockpen. Ok, I'm sorry for interrupting the discussion with this. Thanks again, Lighter, for helping me out. |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: Derry Down From: leeneia Date: 16 Sep 19 - 09:09 PM The MIDI I promised is facing unavoidable delay. Anybody who's interested can PM me. You must be a Mudcat regular. |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: Derry Down From: GUEST,Wm Date: 16 Sep 19 - 11:02 PM Aside from The Pickled Jew, linked above, there appears to be at least one more song on the subject of pork fitted to this air: Old Enoch, noted here in western New York, 1841–56. Funnily enough, Owd Enoch is the name of an unrelated poem (first published 1866?) by the nineteenth-century Lancashire dialect poet Edwin Waugh—and that too is fitted to Derry Down, along with at least one other poem of his, The Grindlestone. |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: Derry Down From: Lighter Date: 17 Sep 19 - 07:51 AM Kevin, thanks for all the info. I've posted a lot on both "Brian O'Linn" and "Tom Bolynn." See esp. threads https://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=159824 https://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=61309 https://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=43706#3972875 |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: Derry Down From: Steve Gardham Date: 17 Sep 19 - 09:03 AM Wow! Lots to go at there. Many thanks to you all. I was hoping to finish the list tonight but not with all this to add. Wm, I'd still like your full name to credit you if possible. If you join the forum you can PM me. It's quite easy to do. Regarding 'Packington's Pound' I used to sing Droylsden Wakes in the 60s with a group, and I'm sure lots of Lancashire singers from that period like Harry Boardman used to sing it. The tune is very simple and repetitive. I have plenty of dots for PP. As you suggest it's always a good idea to start a new thread for a separate tune and then it can be added to and found easily by future researchers. FWIW the tune has elements of the theme in Greig's Spring Song if I've got the right one. I know this looks silly considering the paper I'm writing but I can't actually sightread music and can only follow slowly on concertina with a lot of effort. I think I have 'The Pickled Jew' already in the list. It seems it was originally set to that tune but I'll check it anyway. |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: Derry Down From: Steve Gardham Date: 17 Sep 19 - 09:56 AM In my area of Yorkshire Brian O'Lynn was always sung to a variant of the well-known 'Richard of Taunton Dean' tune, a.k.a. 'Dumble dum deary'. |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: Derry Down From: Steve Gardham Date: 17 Sep 19 - 10:29 AM Jon/Kevin If you can flag up a version of PP midi or performed I'll see if I can give any suggestions. |
|
Subject: Lyr Add: BEAVER RIVER From: GUEST,Wm Date: 17 Sep 19 - 10:49 AM Steve, I'll find a way to message you later. In the meantime, I dug this up from my files. BEAVER RIVER [As sung by Ted Ashlaw, and transcribed by Robert D. Bethke in Adirondack Voices, pp. 128–30] 1. Come boys, if you'll listen, I'll sing you a song, If you'll pay good attention, it won't take me long; It's up at Beaver River, a place you know well, And it's not far from Tupper, but closer to Hell, Derry down, down, dey derry down. 2. When I first came to Beaver I got in there late, Quit a good job at Saranac, came there for a stake. The first job I landed was for my brother, Ed; He had a pulp job from his chum old Hedge, Derry down, down, dey derry down. 3. The very next morning our troubles began: To find us a camp or a shack to stay in. When Paradise to Eddie said, “A camp I can get.” He says, “If you can, why, you’ll go and get it.” Derry down, down, dey derry down. 4. Paradise he started, he wasn’t gone long, Came back with a story twice long as my song. For that Paradise he lied, it is surely a sin; He’ll talk for two hours and not say a thing, Derry down, down, dey derry down. 5. But he got the camp, and that I will say; But he told us right then we couldn’t move in that day, Derry down, down, dey derry down. 6. For his brother-in-law, Haines, he had figured on that, too; But he’s full of big plans that he never can do, Derry down, down, dey derry down. 7. Smith was the first man had this job, you know; But ‘course he was under this big John Davignon. But Harry Smith, he wasn’t there long When to John Davignon someone else sucked around, Derry down, down, dey derry down. 8. The next man had this job it was Howard Haines; And he’s just as big a man but I believe less brains, Derry down, down, dey derry down. 9. One day, says Eddie, he needed some pants, Says as he went to dinner he went by Haines’ camp. As he was a-walking around that way A man would be surprised to hear what he heard Haines say, Derry down, down, dey derry down. 10. Haines was inquiring about the Canadian job As he walked to the swamp with his two little “Frogs,” Derry down, down, dey derry down. 11. Now, it’s over at Smitty’s, where the gamblers do dwell, Till one night two Polacks came in to raise hell. Smith grabbed for his club, he got hit in his hand, And he made for the Polack and called his hard man, Derry down, down, dey derry down. |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: Derry Down From: Lighter Date: 17 Sep 19 - 11:00 AM Steve, here's one of several on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AVL3wEt2Q4 |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: Derry Down From: Steve Gardham Date: 17 Sep 19 - 12:30 PM Hmm! If I might play Devil's advocate for a moment, it would seem to be quite possible, because of their sheer simplicity, that they were composed completely independently of each other. What adds to that is they come from eras at least 2 centuries apart. This idea would be strengthened if no evidence of PPs usage is found in the interim period. Also they appear to be in different modes or at least one is minor and the other is major. Wm, try gardhams at Hotmail dot com |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: Derry Down From: Lighter Date: 17 Sep 19 - 12:38 PM Steve, that occurred to me too. Both tunes are pretty sing-songy. "PP" was supposedly an extremely popular tune, so it would have made sense for it to stay alive somewhere. G. Legman, who wrote that he he personally couldn't carry a tune, thought "PP" was just beautiful, "like angels singing." |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: Derry Down From: Steve Gardham Date: 17 Sep 19 - 01:59 PM I could go with that. It has beauty in its simplicity and the classical variations do sound well on the guitar. I bet it would go nicely on the harp with variations. I really used to like playing variations to the Keel Row on my concertina, another very simple tune. Simpson has plenty to say about PP in the 16th and 17th centuries, but he only takes it up to 1733. Had he found anything more recent other than reprints he would I'm sure have flagged up some at least. I don't think he was that clued up on oral tradition so he may have missed some. 'Specimens are in all of the great ballad collections (17thc presumably), scarcely any of the songbooks of the late seventeenth and early eighteenth century fail to include political or amatory pieces to the tune; and modern reprints of broadsides are full of examples. A half-dozen ballad operas introduce the tune, including Gay's The Beggar's Opera, 1728, Hippisley's A Sequel to the Opera of Flora, 1732, and Phillips's The Mock lawyer, 1733, which reprints the music.' |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: Derry Down From: Steve Gardham Date: 17 Sep 19 - 02:21 PM Kevin Yes I did have Barrel of Pork down. It's on a broadside c1850 on the Bodleian Broadside site. Regarding The Auld Bachelor, the 4 versions given in Greig-Duncan are definitely Derry Down though the verse tune has been ironed out somewhat. The chorus is unmistakable in text and tune. |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: Derry Down From: Steve Gardham Date: 17 Sep 19 - 02:56 PM We have some fascinating revelations regarding the Dom Pedro, but I'll let Mick start the ball rolling as he found the Sharp version. |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: Derry Down From: Steve Gardham Date: 18 Sep 19 - 04:09 AM Whilst there is a lull in the more recent versions coming in, I'd like to put in a request for earlier usage. The earliest usage I have totally confirmed is the Brooksby broadside of about 1685. However, Chappell quite confidently states this version with the 19 stanzas was written in the time of James I without offering any proof. He also states the tune and chorus were used for Rump Parliament pieces in the middle of the century. I've seen plenty of Rump parliament skits and ballads but can't find any that would use our tune and format. Also Simpson offers nothing earlier than Brooksby. Cue Mick P. |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: Derry Down From: Mick Pearce (MCP) Date: 18 Sep 19 - 10:33 AM Nothing earlier that I can find Steve. Using the Abbot of Canterbury title finds a fair number of early 18thC titles (ca1717-1750 in BL, Bodleian and EBBA), but the only early dated one seems to be the Brooksby. I'll search more later. Mick |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: Derry Down From: Steve Gardham Date: 18 Sep 19 - 04:34 PM There are plenty of very early (16th/17thc)long versions of 'King and the Abbot/Bishop' that could use the DD tune but there is no evidence that they did, and of course the actual plot features in the folklore of many lands. |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: Derry Down From: Steve Gardham Date: 19 Sep 19 - 09:25 AM Harking back to earlier postings as I want to finish my article on revival matters; there are no pre-1954 recordings/printings/refs of Dreadnaught to DD tune, so I'm going to assume, I think reasonably, that MacColl set it to that tune for the Topic album 'The Singing Sailor' of 1954/5. Likewise there are no recordings/printings/refs of 'Fancy Frigate/La Pique' to DD tune prior to the publication of Singing Island, 1960, contributed by Lloyd, quoting sources as Whall and Firth, neither of which use the DD tune, so again I am here assuming reasonably that Lloyd set it to that tune. There are good solid reasons for Lloyd and MacColl doing this and I'm not suggesting for one moment that there is any malpractice involved. The related lesser known piece 'Dom Pedro' definitely used the DD tune, and I think most people would agree that DD is far superior to the Vilikins variants and other tunes collected to the 2 songs from oral tradition. |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: Derry Down From: Jim Carroll Date: 19 Sep 19 - 09:44 AM "There are good solid reasons for Lloyd and MacColl doing this " Sigh It gets a little tiresome to have to continually remind people that there is not a shred of evidence that they did anything of the sort If they did, that makes Bert a liar, whether they did anything "malpractical" or not It seems this denigrating of the work of others is going to continue - if that's the case, as Arne once remarked "I'll be back" Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: Derry Down From: Lighter Date: 19 Sep 19 - 09:49 AM Not only is it not "malpractice," it's perfectly "within the tradition," esp. since the tunes are already first or second cousins. It would have been academically desirable (for the handful of us who care) if the revivalists had specified their contribution, but they didn't. Let's just be thankful they were governed by such good taste. Neither did Hugill, who, as a working chanteyman, must have created verses which later appeared anonymously in his books. And he may well have forgotten which ones. |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: Derry Down From: Steve Gardham Date: 19 Sep 19 - 09:52 AM Absolutely, Jon. As I've stated several times on this thread, I am very very thankful for what they did, in more ways than one. |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: Derry Down From: Jim Carroll Date: 19 Sep 19 - 10:01 AM Still doesn't alter the fact that, despite you patronising hand-wringing, if you are right Bert lied Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: Derry Down From: Lighter Date: 21 Sep 19 - 01:39 PM From Hugh St. Leger, “Chanties,” Black and White (London) (July 2, 1892), p. 15: That Elysium of sailors, Ratcliffe Highway, is by no means forgotten in the songs they sing when very far from it. One runs thus: -- “As Jack was a-walking down Ratcliffe Highway, A fair pretty maiden he chanced to espy; But when he did see her most beautiful face Why, he hoisted his topsails and for her gave chase, To me ‘ow di – ‘ow derry way.” After relating the sailor’s adventures with this damsel, which occupy many verses and are not always fit to mention in the politest or most refined society, the song goes on to point its moral. “Now all you young sailors take warning by me, Avoid the Highway when you go on the spree; And all you young maidens take warning I pray, Don’t rattle your rigging down Ratcliffe Highway. To me ‘ow di – ‘ow derry way.” I almost posted this to the "Cruising Round Yarmouth" thread but thought it would be of more interest here. |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: Derry Down From: Steve Gardham Date: 21 Sep 19 - 02:32 PM Hi Jon, Is the full article available anywhere? I have an early broadside version from about 1800. What you have there is very interesting as all the other versions I have start off in first person 'As I/we was a-walking etc.' The end warning verse also I have only seen in one of Hugill's versions. A pity St Leger didn't record the whole thing. |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: Derry Down From: Lighter Date: 21 Sep 19 - 03:13 PM Steve, I have so much material on this "Ratcliffe Highway" song family that I can't find time to deal with it. The type, "sex as naval battle," is traceable straight back to the sixteenth or seventeenth century, but the modern "Yarmouth/Ratcliffe Highway/ Blow the Man Down" branch seems to be from the early to mid nineteenth. The riggin' rattlin' is also in a fragmentary version sent to Gordon about 1924 from R. M. Davids (one of Colcord's sources). And it's a "Derry Down" version too: DOWN DERRY DOWN As Jackie was walking the streets upon Down He spied pretty Peggy of fair London town, He spoke her in English, the signal she knew, And she backed her main yard and she let him come to. Singing down, down, derry down, And she rattled his rigging right down to the rail. She burnt poor Jack's rigging right down to the hull So off to the doctors, poor Jack he did skull, His yards were well braced and his blocks were well hung Saying doctor, dear doctor, my main yard is sprung. The standard folkie version was apparently introduced by Cyril Tawney. In response to my inquiry years back, Cyril kindly wrote that his version was precisely one collected in Orkney by Patrick Suldham-Shaw (I think in the late '30s or '40s). It's too bad that it now goes by the title "The Fire Ship," which is better reserved for an entirely different, apparently late nineteenth century song on the same theme. Even Hugill chose the "Fire Ship" title when he recorded his (conflated?) version on "Sailing Days." Thanks again for the broadside texts you sent me a few years ago! |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: Derry Down From: Steve Gardham Date: 21 Sep 19 - 04:28 PM That clinches it. I'll definitely include it in the list. Many thanks. |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: Derry Down From: Steve Gardham Date: 21 Sep 19 - 04:38 PM Hi I can't find a number for the thread anywhere and I want to quote it in my 'sources' to the paper. How do you get the number? Google it? |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: Derry Down From: Steve Gardham Date: 21 Sep 19 - 04:39 PM Sorted 166643 |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: Derry Down From: Lighter Date: 21 Sep 19 - 04:50 PM Steve, this is the thread I was thinking of: https://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=42245#3583716 BTW, the Folktrax site also confuses the familiar Yarmouth/ Fire Ship songs, then makes things worse by lumping both together under the title, "The Roving Kind." Maybe I should do as Richie does and post my data and comments on Mudcat in installments. Otherwise they'll probably get lost or shoved back in a closet while I tend to other things. |
|
Subject: Lyr Add: LABORER'S LAMENTATION From: GUEST,Wm Date: 23 Sep 19 - 10:42 PM [Link: page 1 of the Rockland County Messenger, July 8, 1852, a column titled "Poetry"] The following was composed by a genuine son of the Emerald Isle, laboring in one of our Brick Yards, we insert it Verbatim. A New Song Concerning the Brick Yards. LABORER'S LAMENTATION Come all ye hard laborers wherever ye be, I pray pay attention and listen to me; Don't covet the Brick yards above all work going, Or they will leave you to sigh a languishing moan. Chorus, down, high down, derry down. As for the Brick yards, I fear they are cursed, Many a good man come there and goes back the worst; When he will rise in the morning, with sleep in his eyes, He will scarcely get light his old bootees to tie. Chorus, &c. If you saw the pit shovelers, you would think they were mad, They leap in the pit, without a hat on their head; It's four by the clock boys, then they would say, — I fear we shall lose one-fourth of our day. Chorus, &c. As for the foreman, he is not much to blame, Though he runs through the yard, and lets many a scream; If you heard the moulders, they are the worst of all It's for the off-bearers they loudly will call. Chorus, &c. If you saw the off bearers, you would pity their case, They look black and dirty, with sweat on their face; As for the engine, it runs very keen, It will push out a mould with every wheel. Chorus. &c. As for the engineer, he is a smart man, He runs the engine as fast as he can; If he was an off bearer, he would alter the case, He would let her go at a very slow pace. Chorus, &c. Now as for the hackmen, you would think they are cracked, They will roar, bawl and shout, with pain in their back; The hacks they won't stand, boys, and what will we do, We must work bare naked, without hat or shoe. Chorus, &c. As for the kiln shed, it is a wholesome clime, Though the men that works on it has very hard times; If you saw the wheelers, I am sure they are teased; For the setters they sit on the brick at their ease. Chorus, &c. As for sloop loading, I know it is hard, It's the most dangerous work that is on the yard; When the river is high, the run it is steep, Both men, brick and barrows will fall in the deep. Chorus, &c. If you saw the loafers, sure you would feel hard, When dinner is ready, they. are sure to be had; When their bellies are full, away they will go, Around Creney's corner, they will cut a great show. Chorus, &c. To speak of the Boss, he is not the worst, He will come with his hands in his pocket, and a very long purse; Saying, boys, keep your courage up to the Fall, I will pay you in specie every cent of it all. Chorus, &c. And now to conclude and to finish my song, To mention the bell, I think I'm not wrong; When the Boss hears it, hurrah boys, he will say, Go ahead to your work, for I think it's a clear day. Chorus, &c. Patrick Kalehigh |
|
Subject: Lyr Add: OIL SONG, A LAMP-OON From: GUEST,Wm Date: 23 Sep 19 - 11:01 PM Here's another application of the tune, also in a New York paper, this time the November 5, 1842 edition of the Poughkeepsie Eagle (reprinted, apparently, from the New Bedford Mercury). It lacks the genuine folk quality (sardonic air quotes optional) of the last piece, but has some wit. I have endeavored to transcribe it accurately, errors of punctuation and all. Light Reading. From, the New Bedford Mercury. OIL SONG A LAMP-OON ; OR, PIG'S FAT VERSUS WHALE'S OIL By a Sau-sage Air—"Derry Down." A cry from the West has reached us down East— New light's the cause of a squeal from the beast— Fish-oil has lost its once far-famed repute, And must yield to hog's fat beyond a dispute. Derrydown, down, down, derry down. That the fat of the pig, Western savans affirm, With a wick (of hog's bristles?) does brilliantly burn; Sperm candles or oil are poor trash at best, Compar'd with the hog-fat that's raised at the West. Derry down, &c. That the old lights have ever come out of the East, From the first of sun rising, (as a data the least,) And as the world goes upside down at the best, The hogs have determined to illumine the West. Derry down, &c. That the virtue of pig-tail our forefathers knew, When they wove it behind and term'd it a queue, But in those dark ages, most writers agree, They slighted the hogs for the fish of the sea. Derry down, &c. Had they but known what a pig-tail has done. When steep'd in hog's lard, how it rivall'd the sun, No drawing-room lusters, assemblies, or feasts, Would be any great shakes without tails of the beasts. Derry down, &c. The West had indignantly rais'd to a man, To throw fat on the lights of the East, if they can; And their ends to attain, at no trifles will stick, They will go the whole hog and use bristles for wick Derry down, down, down, derry down. |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: Derry Down From: GUEST,Wm Date: 23 Sep 19 - 11:05 PM Darn it, in the above post, please read the end of Verse 3, Line 3, as "as a data the least." |
|
Subject: Lyr Add: DAVID WARD From: GUEST,Wm Date: 23 Sep 19 - 11:38 PM This is in Ballads and Songs of Southern Michigan, collected and edited by Emelyn Elizabeth Gardner and Geraldine Jencks Chickering (1939). (A scan of the volume is available at archive.org.) No tune is indicated (and no chorus given), but Derry Down is an obvious choice. It's also a clever example of its genre. -- DAVID WARD Sung in 1932 by Mr. Bert E. Eddy, Romeo; he had learned the song about 1887 from Mr. Sherm Eddy, who had worked in Ward's camp in Manistee, Michigan, and in other lumber camps. Come all my good friends, I'll sing you a song; It's my own intention, and it won't take me long. What I'm going to tell you is what happened to me When I was a-lumbering up on the Manistee. 'Twas on one bright morning I started away; I went to the woods there expecting to stay; I was not alone, for I had a good pard, And we were both lumbering for old David Ward. Now I will tell you the style of our camp: If we didn't nail down, we were set out to tramp; And man's the good man who has got his discharge, And they kept the small boys who were not very large. Now the grub that we got there was not very nice; 'Twas mush and molasses, with codfish and rice, Pork and corn beef with a very course grain; We were turned out long days in the snow and the rain. Now there was the foreman, a very nice man; He was always at work contriving some plan. Our pockets he'd pick, and our clothes he would sell, And get drunk on the money at the Greeland Hotel. Now there was young Charlie, a very poor sort; He would go through the bush for to get a sly peek. If he saw a man straight just to rest his lame back, He would go to the office and give him the sack. Now there was old David, along with the rest, Like an old settin' hen just got off from her nest; He'd cluck, and he'd sputter and look rather blue, And swear at us boys for soldiering, too. Now there was the scaler, I nearly forgot; He was the worst reprobate in the whole lot. If he was sent up to have his just dues, He would go to jail barefoot without any shoes. And now to conclude and to finish this rhyme; To sing any more I don't feel inclined. But now that I'm out, I won't go back again To be turned out long days in the snow and the rain. |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: Derry Down From: GUEST,Wm Date: 23 Sep 19 - 11:54 PM Ballads and Songs of Southern Michigan also contains a relevant snippet of King John and the Bishop, if you need another recent American example at which to point. One verse remembered in 1937 by Mr. Henry R. Vaughn, Detroit, from the singing of his mother in Vermont: I'll tell you a story, a story anon, Of a noble prince, and his name was King John; For he was a prince and a prince of great might, He held up great wrongs, and he put down great right. To me down, down, diddy-i-down. Elmer George of North Montpelier, VT, the singer in the Flanders collection sample linked above, sings a similar version of the burden ("down, down, derry-i-down"). |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: Derry Down From: Jim Carroll Date: 24 Sep 19 - 03:24 AM Can't remember for the life of me which albuum But I remember MacColl singing one of the few Broadsides that stuck in my mind down the years to this air When Henry the Second, not Henry the First With vexations and poxes was impotent cursed The court gathered round and they thought up a plan To produce him a son in a Brass Warming Pan Derry down.... Then to work went the church on her majesty's womb... With prelates and priests and pontiffs from Rome.... etc Political satire at it's very highest as far as I'm concerned Peggy's idea of song families didn't get much of an airing here - much good research seems to flounder on the rocks of sme people's disinterest in the work of others nowadays, but it makes sense to me I've been doing a great deal of work on Child ballads recently and have been struck how many of them, rather than being pinned down to a specific date, have been around forever - Hind Horn's roots in Homer, for instance I was stunned to discover that 'Get Up and Bar the Door' had its counterpart in Ancient Egypt as a story of fig stealing and tomb raiding I see no reason that the same couldn't be applied to evolving tunes and there is no reason on earth that the Henry Martin tune could not be a close relation of this one (rejected out of hand here) Trying to pin these tunes and songs down and put earliest dates any any of these songs (and tales) is to put bridles on wild horses I think it also puts bridles on our chances of understanding our traditions Tunes (and songs) must have started somewhere but it's doubtful we'll ever know where for certain Incidentally, I came across a which of McGinn's 'Forman O'Rourke in an old folk magazine which gives 'Derry Down' as the source of the air There you go...! Jim Carroll |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: Derry Down From: Jim Carroll Date: 24 Sep 19 - 03:57 AM Don't know what happeend to that last snetence Should read Article which gives Derry Down as the source of his O'Rourk tune Posted too soon after I got up Jim |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: Derry Down From: Steve Gardham Date: 24 Sep 19 - 04:22 AM All of this will be very useful for future scholars but I will have to call a halt to my appendix to the paper soon as it's beginning to look more like a book than a paper. Please keep them coming though. Wm, I'd still like a name to credit please. Hi Jim, MacColl's broadside was titled 'The Warming Pan' of 1745 and in the original it's Jemmy I and II, not Henrys, but MacColl could have changed it. You have good memory, especially for pieces you abhor. |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: Derry Down From: Jim Carroll Date: 24 Sep 19 - 04:52 AM Or I could have disremembered it - MacColl never changed important things like that - he was far too accurate a researcher I never sang the song, but I've liked i since I first heard it; It was probably on 'The Angry Muse', come to think of it Jim |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: Derry Down From: Jim Carroll Date: 24 Sep 19 - 04:55 AM I don't "abhor" broadsided by the way - they are far too important as history carriers for that I said I believed the vast majority were totally unsingable, which makes their authors extremely dubious contenders for having made our fit-in-the-mouth folk songs But that's another argument Jim |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: Derry Down From: Mick Pearce (MCP) Date: 24 Sep 19 - 07:24 AM Jim - It was on The Angry Muse as The Warming Pan. Mick |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: Derry Down From: Jim Carroll Date: 24 Sep 19 - 09:25 AM Thanks Mick - haven't had time to check yet Best Jim |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: Derry Down From: Mick Pearce (MCP) Date: 24 Sep 19 - 10:03 AM I've had a quick listen and he does start When Jemmy The Second, not Jemmy The First. Mick |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: Derry Down From: GUEST,Wm Date: 24 Sep 19 - 10:09 AM Wm, I'd still like a name to credit please. Steve, I've sent you an email. |
|
Subject: RE: Tune Req: Derry Down From: Jim Carroll Date: 25 Sep 19 - 08:08 AM "I've had a quick listen and he does start When Jemmy The Second, not Jemmy The First." Thanks again Mick That would not have been necessary had it not been suggested that Ewan might have altered it It really is time the new breed of researchers stopped undermining he work of people who helped put folk song on the map for so many of us Jim |
|
Subject: Lyr Add: JIMMY RENDAL (Child #12) From: Jim Carroll Date: 25 Sep 19 - 10:50 AM Just come across a bit of a curiosity here Jim Carroll Jimmy Rendal (Child 12)
“Where have you been, Jimmie Rendal, my son, |
| Share Thread: |
