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BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here?

Mr Red 25 Feb 20 - 11:37 AM
Stilly River Sage 17 Feb 20 - 12:00 PM
Steve Shaw 17 Feb 20 - 05:37 AM
Steve Shaw 17 Feb 20 - 05:27 AM
Mr Red 17 Feb 20 - 03:53 AM
Steve Shaw 16 Feb 20 - 05:33 AM
Mr Red 16 Feb 20 - 05:07 AM
Stilly River Sage 15 Feb 20 - 01:01 PM
Workingtonman 15 Feb 20 - 08:40 AM
Mr Red 15 Feb 20 - 08:03 AM
Steve Shaw 14 Feb 20 - 06:44 PM
punkfolkrocker 14 Feb 20 - 05:11 PM
Donuel 14 Feb 20 - 04:47 PM
Donuel 14 Feb 20 - 04:38 PM
Mr Red 14 Feb 20 - 04:36 PM
Doug Chadwick 14 Feb 20 - 04:14 PM
Steve Shaw 14 Feb 20 - 02:57 PM
pdq 14 Feb 20 - 02:53 PM
punkfolkrocker 14 Feb 20 - 01:54 PM
Iains 14 Feb 20 - 01:37 PM
pdq 14 Feb 20 - 12:54 PM
Steve Shaw 14 Feb 20 - 06:10 AM
Mr Red 14 Feb 20 - 03:50 AM
Iains 14 Feb 20 - 03:36 AM
Mr Red 14 Feb 20 - 03:20 AM
Stilly River Sage 13 Feb 20 - 06:11 PM
Steve Shaw 13 Feb 20 - 06:00 PM
punkfolkrocker 13 Feb 20 - 03:35 PM
Donuel 13 Feb 20 - 03:12 PM
Iains 13 Feb 20 - 03:00 PM
Workingtonman 13 Feb 20 - 01:26 PM
Steve Shaw 13 Feb 20 - 12:41 PM
Stilly River Sage 13 Feb 20 - 12:05 PM
Donuel 13 Feb 20 - 11:45 AM
Iains 13 Feb 20 - 06:54 AM
Stanron 13 Feb 20 - 06:43 AM
Steve Shaw 13 Feb 20 - 06:29 AM
Mr Red 13 Feb 20 - 06:24 AM
Mr Red 13 Feb 20 - 06:13 AM
Donuel 31 Jan 20 - 09:41 AM
Iains 18 Jan 20 - 05:16 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 18 Jan 20 - 04:55 AM
Donuel 16 Jan 20 - 04:11 PM
Stilly River Sage 16 Jan 20 - 12:01 PM
Stilly River Sage 16 Jan 20 - 11:48 AM
Iains 16 Jan 20 - 11:16 AM
Stilly River Sage 16 Jan 20 - 11:05 AM
Donuel 31 Dec 19 - 09:15 PM
Iains 30 Oct 19 - 07:12 AM
matt milton 30 Oct 19 - 05:14 AM

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Subject: RE: BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Mr Red
Date: 25 Feb 20 - 11:37 AM

Sir James will say the "hard truth" is that it may be better for some communities to relocate UK EA Head.

What I have been saying that the EA in the UK have known for years. They are also saying we shouldn't build houses in the flood plain (duh?), but anticipate it will happen so say we should build above the water and use the ground floor for the cars that created this situation.

BBC reports what the head of the UK EA will be saying tonight at a water symposium.


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Subject: RE: BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 17 Feb 20 - 12:00 PM

It's not that there isn't enough food on the planet, it is that it is unevenly distributed. A lot of it goes to waste in the Western World.


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Subject: RE: BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Feb 20 - 05:37 AM

Just to say, by the way, that your humorous allusion didn't escape me...


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Subject: RE: BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Feb 20 - 05:27 AM

It spat fire and warmed the planet.


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Subject: RE: BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Mr Red
Date: 17 Feb 20 - 03:53 AM

did it spit?


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Subject: RE: BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Feb 20 - 05:33 AM

The last ungulate I tried to rotate wasn't at all happy about it...


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Subject: RE: BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Mr Red
Date: 16 Feb 20 - 05:07 AM

And get ready for when the locusts descend, can we have giant vacuum cleaners sucking in the protein and mincing it into a burger? Make profit from inevitability.

Crazy, but - ya gotta find ways to feed the billions. Mana from heaven with 5 loafs and 2 small fishes ain'ta gonna cut it, PAL!


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Subject: RE: BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Feb 20 - 01:01 PM

Rotational grazing can restore land overgrazed in the past. Rotate crops and ungulates and do your property some good.


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Subject: RE: BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Workingtonman
Date: 15 Feb 20 - 08:40 AM

we could set gangs of livestock free - we don't have to eat them. (though i fear this concept would be impossible to understand for our climate change denying capitalist overlords) and if they do their thing effectively they have less chance of being burned en masse. as a (not very consistent) vegetarian it's factory farming that really concerns me.


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Subject: RE: BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Mr Red
Date: 15 Feb 20 - 08:03 AM

Wake up to this TED talk - How to green the world's deserts and reverse climate change | Allan Savory

Basically he is advocating livestock. Mimicking what nature did for millions of years.

Large herds for safety in numbers (think buffalo style) where they graze , shitting and pissing on the land (aka manuring). And moving on to pastures new (aka not overgrazing). Locking carbon in the soil which allows grass to grow for next season. Agricultural version of rotation farming?

This guy is advocating, out of practical experience, not just his academic prowess. He shows success stories, but he can't do it for the 50% of the deserts of this planet on his own!

Science (aka from nature) can provide solutions, but vegans and veges won't like the answer!


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Subject: RE: BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Feb 20 - 06:44 PM

You have to tell people that a battery will reliably take them four or five hundred miles, summer and winter, and that you can recharge at tens of thousands of places in five minutes flat, without queueing. If you can't persuade, you'll have to use force. We can't persuade people to turn thermostats down by one degree, or to stop buying things in plastic bottles. We have a job on, don't we?


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Subject: RE: BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Feb 20 - 05:11 PM

Mr Red - Plan for future mass public transport starting with consideration for folks
who can't walk..


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Subject: RE: BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Feb 20 - 04:47 PM

Steve there has been a great breakthrough in the manufacture of electric cars. It replaces all the expensive materials including platinum for mere pennies.


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Subject: RE: BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Feb 20 - 04:38 PM

Doug that sounds like smelly air pollution to me

The syncopated
cosmic drumph beat
in the universe
stretches and squeezes
our soul and being.
It takes silence
for deniers to rule.
They are full of stool
And True to tell
they have a smell
Even Light years
away from hell


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Subject: RE: BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Mr Red
Date: 14 Feb 20 - 04:36 PM

and other public transport provision... Shank's pony not good enough, huh?

I have been lucky to be able to walk to work for maybe 10 of my work years, off and on. But things outside your control can change, as well as personal ambition. It does set you up for the day, and wind you down again.

Meanwhile the Environment Agency are toughening us up with scares stories like this Coastal floods warning in UK as sea levels rise, but it has that inevitability the simple stats should tell you. Changing onset of spring, record temperatures. Who gives a fuck arguing about the causation, the sea level is rising, year on year, and there is no inflection in the curve of the rises. If the sea don't get us, the hot summers will, or some bastard child of COVID-19.


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Subject: RE: BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 14 Feb 20 - 04:14 PM

You have hit on something there, Steve. Burning climate change deniers at the stake could provide a renewable source of energy.

DC


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Subject: RE: BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Feb 20 - 02:57 PM

Denial on this topic marks you out as evil. Nothing less.


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Subject: RE: BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: pdq
Date: 14 Feb 20 - 02:53 PM

Sorry about the error but 4% is 100 times larger than 0.04%, not 1000 times.


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Subject: RE: BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Feb 20 - 01:54 PM

Just be glad I'm not absolute ruler of Britain,
because I'd phase out current petro/diesel vehicles
and place strict limits on the numbers of privately owned electric replacement cars...

The future must be heavily biased towards local Bus networks
and other public transport provision...


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Subject: RE: BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Iains
Date: 14 Feb 20 - 01:37 PM

@ pdq. according to the IPCC (Source: Figure 7.3, IPCC AR4).
The anthropogenic component of the 0.04% CO2 in the atmosphere is 3.7%.
The estimate is of dubious validity, as is some of the proxy data bandied about as the word of God.

There are a vast number of unknowns and climate models are inaccurate.
Making definitive statements about what may or may not happen on the basis of such dubious data makes no sense.


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Subject: RE: BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: pdq
Date: 14 Feb 20 - 12:54 PM

The official US government number seems to be 412 parts per million CO2 from all causes. We can call that 0.04%.

Atmospheric water vapor varies but is usually said to be 4-5% at most. Lets go with 4%.

That sugests that H2O is 1000 times more abundant than CO2 and probably 1000 times more important as a “greenhouse gas.”

Most scientists question the accuracy of this type of data (such as temperature) that dates from before 1850. Before 1780 it is worthless. People who claim to know the atmospheric CO2 level 2 million years ago surely lie about other stuff too.


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Subject: RE: BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Feb 20 - 06:10 AM

Mr Red, re my post on batteries and your response. Not for a second was I suggesting that avoiding the inconveniences of limited range and recharging time trumps the need to change our behaviour. I am suggesting that those inconveniences (plus the expense of battery cars) are major obstacles in persuading people to change. Governments can force people to change, of course, by setting unrealistic time scales (end of austerity by 2015, anyone?), and once they force us all to buy battery cars there'll be another inconvenience, this time for petrol drivers in their bangers, in that it'll get harder and harder to find petrol stations. But governments forcing major changes on people tend to make themselves very unpopular...


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Subject: RE: BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Mr Red
Date: 14 Feb 20 - 03:50 AM

Does 4 parts per million of anthropogenically generated CO2 really have the impact suggested?

First justify the claim. The figure being banded about is a doubling of CO2, compared to pre-industrial levels. How near are we currently? Very!
Pre-industrial life sustained globally for at least 2 million years of primates burning trees to cook food, shows climate change indistinguishable from natural changes caused by (take yer pick): magma release/ash, earth's orbit variations, solar flares and (other).

4 ppm refers to IQ IMNSHO


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Subject: RE: BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Iains
Date: 14 Feb 20 - 03:36 AM

The Aleutions and adjacent landmass are actually sinking. It always helps to unite cause with effect, rather than hysteria.
The Pacific tectonic plate rubs against the North American plate, giving rise to the San Andreas and Denali strike-slip faults. In southwestern Alaska, those two plates meet head on, and the Pacific plate sinks beneath the North American plate. In this subduction zone, some of the ocean plate melts and the molten rock pushes to the surface in a string of 40 active volcanoes, forming the Aleutian Islands.


Catalina Island off California has sunk each decade for more than a million years by at least two millimeters, according to research by Stanford Uni.
The UN had been premature in declaring the villagers on Tegua (Solomons) to be climate change refugees when a large earthquake caused the island to shoot back out of the water in 2009. That island sank nearly 12 centimeters (five inches) between 1997 and 2009
Vanikoro, also in the Solomons, is sinking by seven millimeters (0.3 inches) a year.Earthquakes and tsunamis strike Vanikoro regularly, but people here are at the mercy of the forces of nature in a longer-term way, as well: On its slowly sinking course, the Australian Plate is dragging Vanikoro along into the depths.
Further confusing the issue is the fact that "sea level increase" is not uniform. It is reputedly higher in the Pacific. Like most inhabitants of the South Pacific, those of Vanikoro must contend with sea-level fluctuations of some 20 centimeters (eight inches) caused by currents in the Pacific, such as the climate phenomenon called El Niño.
CO2 represnts 0.04% of the atmosphere and the anthropogenic component of that 0.04% is reckoned to be 0.4%

Does 4 parts per million of anthropogenically generated CO2 really have the impact suggested? . Water vapor varies by volume in the atmosphere from a trace to about 4% and is also a potent greenhouse gas.
Do the maths. CO2(Human) 4 parts per million
             Water Vapour up to 40,000 parts per million

The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) Third Assessment Report suggests that MSL may rise by approximately 50 cm in the next 100 years, and that regional meteorology may also change, which would affect the magnitude and frequency of storm surges
I may win the lottery. That is not science, it is not even worthy of being labelled a forecast.


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Subject: RE: BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Mr Red
Date: 14 Feb 20 - 03:20 AM

Battery power has a bloody long way to go to match that.

Early days. John B Goodenough gave us the Lithium-Ion battery that made this debate possible, a mere 30 years ago. And at 95 he still heads-up the team trying to go beyond Cobolt on Lithium. But Tesla claim 400 miles - is your 600 mile journey really necessary? A 30 minute break re-charging the car and YOU is very wise counsel.

If we are to divorce ourselves from carbon fuel we must find alternative portable power. Electricity has the momentum, we need it NOW. New Scientist points out that using electricity for hydrolysis is not viable without acres of PV. It is doable at the point of delivery where the acreage is available - say private rooftops - but at realistic levels it would not deliver sufficient on-demand for a busy urban station. Use electricity from the grid? What is that made from?

All of this points us to the possibility that we will have to consider favouring traveling in daylight hours &/or when the wind is blowing. Or get stranded in strange towns. Like I say, science has solutions, we may not like the answers.

One novel mass storage solution seen involves heavy rail wagons driven uphill (by electricity) during daylight/windy days. And let downhill when recovering the stored energy by generating electricity and storing on batteries on each wagon. In future iterations the battery boxes will turn sideways at the top and bottom to maximise parking area. The company claim 95% ability to recycle the whole system at the end of life.

prototype is the second picture


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Subject: RE: BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Feb 20 - 06:11 PM

The Maldives are islands that seem to be shifting and sometimes growing - lucky for them there is room for that dynamic activity - but Alaska natives are moving their homes on the Aleut and mainland shorelines because of the rising sea level eroding the land. Scientists may not have got them all right, but they're more correct than wrong, and a lot more accurate than your misinformation sources. The Arctic Institute.


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Subject: RE: BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Feb 20 - 06:00 PM

There are two blind guys here, Donuel. The demented Iains and you. You are blind when you refer to "you guys." There is only one guy posting here who denies anthropogenic climate change. The rest of us don't care to be insulted by your bracketing us with him. Especially him. Knock it off, eh?


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Subject: RE: BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Feb 20 - 03:35 PM

Do we have time left to block off the Bristol channel between Wales and Scrumpyshire
before we return to pre land reclamation waterscapes..

Or is it not worth thinking about new downstairs carpets...???


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Subject: RE: BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Feb 20 - 03:12 PM

You guys are CO2 blind, which is the main accelerent of global warming. Since 14,000 years ago when the last ice age let go of its icy grip big time, sea levels have risen, now climate change is going after the remaining ice.


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Subject: RE: BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Iains
Date: 13 Feb 20 - 03:00 PM

The pseudo science is the belief 97% of scientists believe in global warming according to Al Gore, and now rebadged as climate change, all due to anthropogenic causes.
Climate has always changed.

After alerting the world in September 1988 that the Maldive islands of the Indian Ocean would be submerged by rising seas in less than three decades – due to the so-called first effects of man-made global warming – officials of the United Nations and associated climatologists are scratching their heads that the island chain is still there.


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Subject: RE: BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Workingtonman
Date: 13 Feb 20 - 01:26 PM

of course we could make a real effort to clean up the planet, drastically reduce emissions, restore diversity to what the greens like to cause an 'abundance. we could save many species and help them to thrive. we could ensure that everyone had a fairer chance and a more secure, well-educated future....

but then we found out that the climate change deniers were right all along! it was all a massive chinese /lefty hoax.......how foolish would we feel then left with our unnecessary clean and healthy planet?

eejits


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Subject: RE: BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Feb 20 - 12:41 PM

Yeah. And they want donations so that they can "defend the Scientific Method." :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Feb 20 - 12:05 PM

You're not part of the conversation with that pseudoscience crap, Iains. You're part of the problem.


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Subject: RE: BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Feb 20 - 11:45 AM

Tesla stock has grown 280% in the last several weeks.
280%?


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Subject: RE: BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Iains
Date: 13 Feb 20 - 06:54 AM

https://principia-scientific.org/has-there-actually-been-a-scientific-debate-over-global-warming/


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Subject: RE: BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Stanron
Date: 13 Feb 20 - 06:43 AM

I agree that the hydrogen generator is the future for electric vehicles. Excess sunlight through voltaic cells can be stored as hydrogen from water electrolysis then later be used to generate electricity again.

The technology exists but, as has been noted, the infrastructure is virtually non-existent.

None of this solves the jet engine problem. If jet engines could be run on hydrogen I imagine that they would already be in use. The trick would be if someone could find a way to burn carbon dioxide with hydrogen to make it work with jets. As long as the carbon dioxide came from the air it would be 'carbon neutral', or is this just chemical perpetual motion?


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Subject: RE: BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Feb 20 - 06:29 AM

Battery development and production is extremely environmentally-unfriendly on many levels. And what's more, I can drive my Focus diesel, bought when diesel was lauded as the way to go in 2011, 600 miles on a tankful and fill up in two minutes at any one of thousands of places, then be on my way. Battery power has a bloody long way to go to match that.


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Subject: RE: BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Mr Red
Date: 13 Feb 20 - 06:24 AM

In the UK Telegraph (don't buy it meself) on the front page re devastating floods in towns that have had devastating floods 3 times in seven years:

"UK agency tasked with flood defences and hydrology thereof states 'we may have to re-think our strategy'"

Which are code words for "Abandon ship". Not easy news for the houseowners, or even renters.

As I am want to say, science/technology has the solutions, but we won't like the answers.

The terrain is basically a valley location with high hills surrounding. Taming nature needs big expensive undertakings that haven't reached Hebdon Bridge yet. And global warming/weirding increasing without respite.

I live in an area that proudly proclaims the nickname "Five Valleys" and grew on the strength of water mills harnessing the phenomenon. Floods are known, traffic chaos ensues! But on the plus side only a house called Noahs Ark suffers!


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Subject: RE: BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Mr Red
Date: 13 Feb 20 - 06:13 AM

Hydrogen needs an infrastructure like petrol has. Uphill task, especially given the fact that gas engines, when I was at college, are only 50% as powerful.

Off-the-shelf electric cars like Tesla can outstrip some pretty specialised drag cars, head to head. Up to about 60mph anyway.

And electricity is available everywhere, and can be generated anywhere the sun shines!
VHS v Betamax is a good comparison, though I am not convinced hydrogen is better.
Certainly London buses run on hydrogen, (after the first 100 yards of battery), but they have to return to the depot, and the logistics of installing infrastructure there is easier, especially with political will behind it. And seat of government in the same city!!!!!!

The problem material with lithium-Ion batteries is cobalt. But such electric car tech is barely 20 years old, and it has impetus, battery technology is running apace.

Compressed air, you would think, has a lot going for it, but it hasn't caught on.


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Subject: RE: BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Donuel
Date: 31 Jan 20 - 09:41 AM

Hydrogen generator breakthrough for cars will eliminate the need for high cost materials like platinum and the new materials are more efficient as well. Affordable hydrogen vehicles looks good now.


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Subject: RE: BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Iains
Date: 18 Jan 20 - 05:16 AM

Science is driven by facts
Politics by consensus.
Confuse the two at your peril!


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Subject: RE: BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 18 Jan 20 - 04:55 AM

What the world needs most is birth control - sweet human birth control.

Frankly, if more men go through life getting off before central, the world will be a far better place for those who are born - humans plus all fauna and flora.

Or, like Donuel, I've had a go in verse, too - WalkaboutsVerse: "Congestion"


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Subject: RE: BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Jan 20 - 04:11 PM

Goodbye Moon
beyond smoke
goodbye dog
I heard choke

Goodbye 3 little kittens
goodbye florists
All of this was written.
Goodbye rain forest

Goodbye green trees
now stiff and black
and fall in the breeze
Goodbye clean air attacks

Goodbye fair Oz
and billions of creatures
The stock market
is now Earth's best feature


DH 2020


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Subject: RE: BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 16 Jan 20 - 12:01 PM

From a few years back, Are climate sceptics the real champions of the scientific method? As part of our series on science and the green movement, Warren Pearce looks at how science is used by their opponents

While this may mark a new era of extended and unforgiving online peer review, is it also a convenient modus operandi for politically motivated sceptics who can utilise doubt as a weapon against effective implementation of climate policy. Those who favour free market policies over regulation certainly have ample motivation to chip away at climate science if they think it will cast aspersions on the basis for policy. However, how can criticisms of sceptics as politically motivated be squared with science's commitment to findings always being provisional and open to challenge? At what point can we judge that a scientific question moves from a position of "doubt" to being "settled"?

"The conundrum is that both "sides" (if one can use that term) seem to focus on real science as the arbiter of knowledge claims. In doing so, they risk constricting material policy measures, issues of wider public significance than scientific debates about climate change."

Social issues such as the disparity in access to food, income, the wise use of resources, those are the things that have to inform the regulations and negotiations to deal with climate change. That's hard enough to do when the science is spot on and proves the effects of mineral extraction, pollution from manufacturing and the internal combustion engine. The deniers have a stake in keeping poor people poor and letting the marketplace pollute and keep the rich getting richer.


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Subject: RE: BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 16 Jan 20 - 11:48 AM

So you go out and look for an official sounding group to push your junk science:

Principia Scientific International (PSI) is a not-for-profit community interest association.

It's an internet club of climate deniers.

Media Bias/Fact Check rates them as CONSPIRACY-PSEUDOSCIENCE

Sources in the Conspiracy-Pseudoscience category may publish unverifiable information that is not always supported by evidence. These sources may be untrustworthy for credible/verifiable information, therefore fact checking and further investigation is recommended on a per article basis when obtaining information from these sources. See all Conspiracy-Pseudoscience sources.

Overall, we rate Principia Scientific International (PSI) a strong conspiracy and Pseudoscience website that promotes anti-vaccine propaganda and frequent misinformation regarding climate change.


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Subject: RE: BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Iains
Date: 16 Jan 20 - 11:16 AM

https://principia-scientific.org/how-empirical-evidence-bursts-the-climate-consensus-balloon/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=e


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Subject: RE: BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 16 Jan 20 - 11:05 AM

The numbers are in and while the graph represents just two degrees, what a difference they make. (Washington Post)
The past decade was the hottest ever recorded on the planet, driven by an acceleration of temperature increases in the past five years, according to data released Wednesday.

The findings, released jointly by NASA and the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, detail a troubling trajectory: 2019 was the second-hottest year on record, trailing only 2016. The past five years each rank among the five hottest since record-keeping began. And 19 of the hottest 20 years have occurred during the past two decades.

The warming trend also bears the unmistakable sign of human activity, which emits tens of billions of tons of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere each year, scientists say.

“No individual hot year — or hot day or hot season, for that matter — is by itself evidence for climate change. But this hot year is just one of many hot years in this decade,” said Kate Marvel, a research scientist at NASA and Columbia University. “The planet is statistically, detectably warmer than before the Industrial Revolution. We know why. We know what it means. And we can do something about it.”

According to NOAA, global warming has sped up over the past 40 years compared to earlier in the 20th century. The annual global average surface temperature is now increasing at an average rate of about 0.18 degrees Celsius (0.32 Fahrenheit) per decade.


For those who can't get past the WaPo paywall, here is the BBC.
According to Nasa, Noaa and the UK Met Office, last year was the second warmest in a record dating back to 1850.

The past five years were the hottest in the 170-year series, with the average of each one more than 1C warmer than pre-industrial.

The Met Office says that 2020 is likely to continue this warming trend.

2016 remains the warmest year on record, when temperatures were boosted by the El Niño weather phenomenon.


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Donuel
Date: 31 Dec 19 - 09:15 PM

Is it not worth protesting as well as taking personal respondsibiity for change?


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Iains
Date: 30 Oct 19 - 07:12 AM

You quote the IPCC as saying the rate of SL rise has increased. Newlyn does not show that change of rate. It has been attributed to changes in the southern oceans.That is a fact. The explanation is not as clear cut.
Data is interpolated and assumptions made. Theories have been advanced.
They may or may not be true, as I stated with the death statistics above make of it what you will. Even the alternative death statistics forInfdia due to Heatwaves pale into insignificance when contrasted with UK winter deaths. That is a fact.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/334975572_Persistent_acceleration_in_global_sea-level_rise_since_the_1960s
The paper above makes a number of assumptions to derive conclusions. I would dispute them.

One very severe hurricane demonstrates very little about climate change. A pattern over several decades of hurricanes increasing in frequency and intensity is relevant. I can't tell you how many people told me during the Beast from the East (a short cold snap in the UK at the end of winter in 2018) that it proved that global warming was rubbish. Matt, it's tedious but necessary to keep on making this very basic point to naysayers who present their facile "arguments." Yes, don't feed the troll.
The World Meteorological Organization stated 2017 The relationship between climate change and the frequency of hurricanes (or tropical cyclones) is still unclear, and is the subject of continued research.

All measures of Atlantic hurricane activity have increased since 1970, although comparably high levels of activity occurred during the 1950s and 1960s, and higher levels of activity were seen in the first decades of the 20th century. Of the 13 strongest recorded hurricanes to hit the U.S. mainland, only three have occurred since 1970: Andrew (1992), Charley (2004), and Michael (2018). Four of these 13 hurricanes — including the strongest, the Labor Day hurricane that hit Florida in 1935 — occurred between 1926 and 1935, when sea-surface temperatures were substantially cooler than they’ve been in recent decades. Hence it is difficult to support an argument that man-made climate change, which has been significant only since 1970, is making hurricanes worse.

Predictions of future hurricane activity are even more uncertain. Possible scenarios in which hurricanes could incrementally worsen over the course of the 21st century are described in the WMO Report. But they don’t change the fundamental fact that hurricanes become catastrophes through a combination of large populations, land-use practices and coastal-ecosystem degradation


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: matt milton
Date: 30 Oct 19 - 05:14 AM

It is very telling that Iains picks the year 2017 to provide statistics for Indian deaths from heat. The previous Indian heatwave, 2015, had deaths of over 2000.

Reason 2017 was lower is cos of governemental measures introduced to counteract the tragic deaths of recent years! If you were a totally evil bastard, of course, you could point to that as evidence of mankind's ability to adapt, and shrug off those thousands of deaths as a lesson learned (I would like to see someone try to say that face-to-face to a bereaved victim...!)

But morality aside it would be adaptation measures used by the Indian government can't be used for ever. They required fossil fuel usage (exterior and interior cooling systems); plentiful potable and clean water; and public access to green spaces. All of which are increasingly scarce in a hot country getting ever hotter.

Cutting to the substance of Iins' last email, the UK sea level record at Newlyn.... The first critical and obvious point: this records the sea level at Newlyn in the UK only. Whereas the IPCC are drawing conclusions based on sea level records from across the whole world.

Second point: having done a brisk google of hislink to check whether sea level records at Newlyn show a rise or not over the last century the first thing I found was this quote:

"Figure 8 shows that MSL at Newlyn has risen significantly over the past century, at an average rate of 1.8 mm/year (with a standard error of approximately 0.1 mm/year; see discussion of sea level trend in this record in Rossiter (1967), Thompson (1980), Woodworth (1987), Woodworth et al. (1999, 2009a), Araújo and Pugh (2008), and Haigh et al. (2009))"

If the link he provides says 'risen significantly', then 'risen significantly' is what I take from it.

Reading back over this entire thread, it seems to me that everything Iains has stated or pointed to has been rebutted, and each time he has simply moved onto something else.

I acknowledge my fellow Mudcatters' suggestions of 'not feeding the troll' but it seems to me that we are starving rather than feeding. This thread is a good record advert for the necessity of taking urgent action in getting to net-zero carbon as soon as possible; it provides excellent rebuttals of many sprurious arguments.

Iain's last email says "I do not have an issue with climate change". I'm glad to hear that because I have a 6-year-old son who, if he lives a long life will still be around in the year 2090. I cannot afford to be blase. The crazy thing about climate-change sceptic arguments is that i want them to be true but they never stand up.


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