BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here?

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: gillymor
Date: 01 Oct 19 - 09:37 AM

Perhaps you should take some time out for reflection, donuel, rather than post lame, useless anti-human poetry(?).

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 01 Oct 19 - 10:35 AM

gillymor, many nations of the world are suffering from rising waters and melting ice. A poem that suggests the view from Colonial or First World powers is exactly what is needed here. Contrary to your observation, it represents a great deal of reflection and is not lame. At. All.

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: gillymor
Date: 01 Oct 19 - 10:54 AM

I've reread that last one and it's hard for me to tell what perspective was represented. If I've misinterpreted your intentions I apologize, Donuel, if not I don't.

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Oct 19 - 11:02 AM

"Another unanticipated possibility would be a nickel rich eruption in which bacteria that converts nickel to methane would then deliver the final blow to a run away climate catastrophe."

Dunno about him and his poetry, but the above is total bollix. Nickel is a metallic element with one kind of atom. Ni. Methane is a molecular gas made of nothing but carbon and hydrogen atoms. C and H.   Not exactly interchangeable, huh, even by very very very clever bacteria.

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Oct 19 - 03:19 PM

Its a new explanation/theory for the extinctions arising from the Russian traps eruption Steve. The bacteria exist but its still just a theory I used as an example. Stupidity and greed we already know but we don't know the unknown. Whether we are guessing the next flu vaccine or budgeting for a hurricane season its all guesswork.

Who knows maybe we could democratically end the fossil fuel foolery and spend our budget on carbon capture and clean solar, wind and fusion. But would it be enough? I don't know for certain.

I'm sure if I took Oxy like the Trump base I would be less concerned and more hopeful. As for my musings, they are somewhere between genius and moronic. Its not worth caring about and taking any offense is just a figment of the conscious mind. There is a more important mind.

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Oct 19 - 03:37 PM

I still like the song 'Always look on the bright side of life'
'Always' is just very hard to do.

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: gillymor
Date: 01 Oct 19 - 03:48 PM

When I consider sentences like "Heroic Human efforts will be to little too late but don't let me stop your Pollyana Party.", I'd say it's leaning more toward the moronic end of the spectrum, but no offense, Don, I know you're a good guy and that you can handle a bit of criticism.

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Oct 19 - 05:47 PM

And your poetry may well be lovely but nickel cannot be transformed into methane. What we really don't need in a climate change thread is bullshit.

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Oct 19 - 06:13 PM

Mr Shaw,
Try reading what is said instead of putting into your own terms'

" Nickel-eating bacteria may have worsened the world's worst mass die-off by producing huge amounts of methane, a new study suggests.

The study is the latest attempt to explain how most of the world's ocean species died off in just a few hundred thousand years at the end of the Permian era, about 250 million years ago. The researchers presented their findings Tuesday here at the annual meeting of the American Geophysical Union.

The study proposes that a series of steps caused the mass extinction, but that bacteria played a key role. First, massive volcanic activity in Siberia released nickel into the atmosphere, which somehow reached the ocean. As a result, populations of ocean-dwelling bacteria that use nickel in their metabolic pathway exploded, releasing huge amounts of methane into the atmosphere and depleting ocean oxygen levels as a byproduct of that metabolism. Because methane is a greenhouse gas, the catastrophic gas release trapped heat in the atmosphere and caused the mass extinction by making the climate uninhabitable.

But while the findings are intriguing, many of the steps in this process are speculative, said Anthony Cohen, a researcher at the Open University in the United Kingdom, who was not involved in the study. [ Wipe Out: History's Most Mysterious Extinctions ]

"There are a lot of assumptions you have to make," Cohen told LiveScience.

For instance, it's not clear how the huge nickel deposited in lava flows in Siberia could have made it into seawater around the globe, he said.

The Great Dying
During " The Great Dying," up to 90 percent of the world's species perished. Though no one knows exactly how the mass die-off occurred, fossil records suggest gradual changes like ocean acidification and lessening atmospheric and oceanic oxygen first killed off species slowly, and cataclysmic volcanic eruptions or asteroid impacts then quickly wiped out the vast majority of life.

Another theory holds that vast troves of the greenhouse gas methane, which are normally trapped beneath the seafloor, were released from the ocean rapidly, causing apocalyptic levels of global warming.

Methane explosion
But just what caused that massive methane release remained a mystery. Daniel Rothman, a researcher at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, and his colleagues wondered whether ocean-dwelling bacteria that churn out methane were the culprits.

His team found through genetic analysis that bacteria called methanosarcina evolved the ability to break down nickel and make methane as part of its metabolism about 251 million years ago. The bacteria may have exploded in population, thereby releasing the ocean's vast methane reserves. And because the bacteria add an oxygen molecule to methane during metabolism, an exponential rise in methanosarcina may have catastrophically depleted ocean oxygen levels.

But in order for methanosarcina to rapidly reproduce, the population would need a huge source of nickel.

Volcanoes fuel extinction
Around the same time, cataclysmic volcanic activity at the Siberian Traps in Norilsk, Russia, spewed up to 2.7 million square miles (7 million square kilometers) of nickel-rich lava.

"The world's largest nickel deposits are in Siberia," Rothman said during the AGU conference. "They are there as a result of Siberian volcanism around 252 million years ago." [ Watch Live: Latest News from 2012 AGU Meeting ]

So the bonanza of nickel needed to spur a population explosion in methanosarcina likely came from the Siberian Traps. If that's the case, then catastrophic volcanoes and methane-making bacteria may have combined to cause the world's worst extinction event.

Though many of the study's proposed causes for the Permian extinction are familiar, it does provide a new timeline of events, Cohen said.

"Quite a lot of the ideas have been around for a long time. It's just putting them together."

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/50088913/ns/technology_and_science-science/t/nickel-eating-bacteria-blamed-worlds-worst-extinction/#.X

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Oct 19 - 08:37 PM

Bejaysus I can read all right, and this is what I read:


"bacteria that converts nickel to methane..."

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Mossback
Date: 01 Oct 19 - 09:14 PM

Hi, Steve-

Remember post Date: 24 Sep 19 - 01:13 PM

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Oct 19 - 11:23 AM

Oh hell Steve, there is even bacteria that can metabolize another metal called Arsenic. There are iron eating microbes in Antarctica that stain snow red. There is even bacteria that subtitutes Arsenic for potassium in its DNA. Life itself is a tough little bugger.
These facts are unknown to you so you react in a predictable way.
-or- there are more things in heaven or Earth Horatio...

I don't play the game of I am right and you are wrong anymore. Polite humility is often best. If you can't learn something new then by all means be happy that you are right. Sorry that sounded snarky.

My only simple and obvious point still remains that the unknown is a dangerous game changer.

I welcome criticism/reactions since I don't want to live in my own delusional bubble. Imagine Einstien's critics when he first said matter can be changed into energy or that gravity bends space.
Prove it, they said. Other people did it for him. I go further when I say a black hole has the means to change matter and energy into space/dark energy. I can't prove it but maybe others will.

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Oct 19 - 11:51 AM

"Metabolising" a metal is not the same as weird quasi-alchemy. Nickel cannot be converted by bacteria to methane. Be told, will you?

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 Oct 19 - 12:13 PM

Fine, Mr. Shaw.

Metabolises nickel, producing methane as a wast product. His comment is still valid


As the present "consensus is that the MODELS show that man-made effects are in control, perhaps you will consider that the MODEL is not as perfect as you seem to think.

The climate MODELS were run from 10 years to the present, to predict the actual temperature change. 95% of then were GREATER than the actual temperature change, as measured.
Just coincidence that the SOLAR FLUX has been trending DOWNWARD at
the time in question. Perhaps one might consider that the 10.7 cm solar flux AND IT'S EFFECT ON CLIMATE has NOT been modeled correctly, since the CO2 numbers can be made to fudge the formulas.

Then you could consider the changes over recent time ( decade or so) in both the Martian icecap and the Red Spot on Jupiter, both dependent of solar flux and NOT on man-made CO2 production.

The likelihood that man CAN reverse the climate change as seen is not as high as you seem to think. So efforts to reduce CO2 WHILE NOT TAKING THE NEEDED STEPS to move populations and deal with the EFFECTS of climate change is both a misuse of resources better spent saving lives, and a political powergrab.

As I stated, and SRS lied about, I do believe in climate change- I just do not think that the present efforts are of any use other than to push the real problem down the road, so that there is less time to deal with the effect of climate change, and a FAR greater loss of life.

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Oct 19 - 12:58 PM

"I just do not think that the present efforts are of any use other than to push the real problem down the road, so that there is less time to deal with the effect of climate change, and a FAR greater loss of life." bb

The sun cools yet Earth temps soar higher, don't you see a problem?
What are the present efforts?
What is the real problem?

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Oct 19 - 01:20 PM

I thought most would understand nickle 'eating' rather than saying nickle uptake...
The end-Permian extinction is associated with a mysterious disruption to Earth’s carbon cycle. Scientists identify causal mechanisms via three observations. First, they show that geochemical signals indicate superexponential growth of the marine inorganic carbon reservoir, coincident with the extinction and consistent with the expansion of a new microbial metabolic pathway. Second, they show that the efficient acetoclastic pathway in Methanosarcina emerged at a time statistically indistinguishable from the extinction. Finally, they show that nickel concentrations in South China sediments increased sharply at the extinction, probably as a consequence of massive Siberian volcanism, enabling a methanogenic expansion by removal of nickel limitation. Collectively, these results are consistent with the instigation of Earth’s greatest mass extinction by a specific microbial innovation.

I prefer the time saving metaphorical dumbed down succint rhetoric, 'nickel eating bacteria'

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 Oct 19 - 01:36 PM

"The level of solar activity beginning in the 1940s is exceptional – the last period of similar magnitude occurred around 9,000 years ago (during the warm Boreal period).[7][8][9] The Sun was at a similarly high level of magnetic activity for only ~10% of the past 11,400 years. Almost all earlier high-activity periods were shorter than the present episode."


The last DECADE had reduced solar flux, and reality ( but NOT the climate models) reflect that.

But we are coming out of the Little Ice Age

"The Little Ice Age (LIA) was a period of cooling that occurred after the Medieval Warm Period.[1] Although it was not a true ice age, the term was introduced into scientific literature by François E. Matthes in 1939.[2] It has been conventionally defined as a period extending from the 16th to the 19th centuries,[3][4][5] but some experts prefer an alternative timespan from about 1300[6] to about 1850.[7][8][9]

The NASA Earth Observatory notes three particularly cold intervals: one beginning about 1650, another about 1770, and the last in 1850, all separated by intervals of slight warming.[5] The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change Third Assessment Report considered the timing and areas affected by the Little Ice Age suggested largely independent regional climate changes rather than a globally synchronous increased glaciation. At most, there was modest cooling of the Northern Hemisphere during the period.[10]

Several causes have been proposed: cyclical lows in solar radiation, heightened volcanic activity, changes in the ocean circulation, variations in Earth's orbit and axial tilt (orbital forcing), inherent variability in global climate, and decreases in the human population (for example from the Black Death and the colonization of the Americas).[11]"

"In a 2012 paper, Miller et al. link the Little Ice Age to an "unusual 50-year-long episode with four large sulfur-rich explosive eruptions, each with global sulfate loading >60 Tg" and notes that "large changes in solar irradiance are not required."[6]

Throughout the Little Ice Age, the world experienced heightened volcanic activity.[85] When a volcano erupts, its ash reaches high into the atmosphere and can spread to cover the whole earth. The ash cloud blocks out some of the incoming solar radiation, leading to worldwide cooling that can last up to two years after an eruption. Also emitted by eruptions is sulfur, in the form of sulfur dioxide gas. When it reaches the stratosphere, it turns into sulfuric acid particles, which reflect the sun's rays, further reducing the amount of radiation reaching Earth's surface.

A recent study found that an especially massive tropical volcanic eruption in 1257, possibly of the now-extinct Mount Samalas near Mount Rinjani, both in Lombok, Indonesia, followed by three smaller eruptions in 1268, 1275, and 1284 did not allow the climate to recover. This may have caused the initial cooling, and the 1452–53 eruption of Kuwae in Vanuatu triggered a second pulse of cooling.[6] The cold summers can be maintained by sea-ice/ocean feedbacks long after volcanic aerosols are removed.

Other volcanoes that erupted during the era and may have contributed to the cooling include Billy Mitchell (ca. 1580), Huaynaputina (1600), Mount Parker (1641), Long Island (Papua New Guinea) (ca. 1660), and Laki (1783).[21] The 1815 eruption of Tambora, also in Indonesia, blanketed the atmosphere with ash; the following year, 1816, came to be known as the Year Without a Summer,[86] when frost and snow were reported in June and July in both New England and Northern Europe."



And remember the solar constant is +/- 2 %   See what model has that included.

" Scafetta and West,[45] who claimed that solar variability has a significant effect on climate forcing. Based on correlations between specific climate and solar forcing reconstructions, they argued that a "realistic climate scenario is the one described by a large preindustrial secular variability (e.g., the paleoclimate temperature reconstruction by Moberg et al.)[46] with TSI experiencing low secular variability (as the one shown by Wang et al.).[47] Under this scenario, they claimed the Sun might have contributed 50% of the observed global warming since 1900.[48] Stott et al. estimated that the residual effects of the prolonged high solar activity during the last 30 years account for between 16% and 36% of warming from 1950 to 1999."

And yes, the models include some solar effects, based on the 11 year cycles. HOWEVER:
"Periodicity of solar activity with periods longer than the sunspot cycle has been proposed,[5] including:

The 210 year Suess cycle[35] (a.k.a. "de Vries cycle", named after Hans Eduard Suess and Hessel De Vries respectively) is recorded from radiocarbon studies, although "little evidence of the Suess Cycle" appears in the 400-year sunspot record.[5]

The Hallstatt cycle (named after a cool and wet period in Europe when glaciers advanced) is hypothesized to extend for approximately 2,400 years.[40][41][42][43]

An as yet unnamed cycle may extend over 6,000 years.[44]

In carbon-14 cycles of 105, 131, 232, 385, 504, 805 and 2,241 years have been observed, possibly matching cycles derived from other sources.[45] Damon and Sonett[46] proposed carbon 14-based medium- and short-term variations of periods 208 and 88 years; as well as suggesting a 2300-year radiocarbon period that modulates the 208-year period.[47]

During the Upper Permian 240 million years ago, mineral layers created in the Castile Formation show cycles of 2,500 years."

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Oct 19 - 01:45 PM

Steve's wierd semi alchemy is merely Donuel's microbial innovation.
But he is right that you can not put nickel in a cow's digestive tract and expect to get methane. But who would do that? eew

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Mossback
Date: 02 Oct 19 - 01:49 PM

For Mr. Bruce, an historical anecdote:

“ I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible you may be mistaken.”
         Oliver Cromwell, letter to the general assembly of the Church of Scotland (3 August 1650)

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Oct 19 - 02:30 PM

Not worth it here, Bill. We have here an arch-obscurantist who revels in incommunicado science and a bloke who thinks he's a mystic who misuses the language then can't back down. Somebody sensible might SAY something sensible about climate change soon. In plain and accurate English, preferably. I'm working on it. Until such times, I'm butting out.

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Oct 19 - 04:34 PM

I have told Mossback how I refer to a non dyslexic brain as linear in comparison to a dimensional dyslexic brain. There are some diadvantages to a dyslexic brain, as if to pay for other advantages like inventive neural connectedness. That disadvantage would indeed be language. Still some people seem to understand me perfectly well.
One might say one brain is not superior to another but differently abled.

I would never condemn Mr. Shaw for his incompacity to understand. Calling a person with a limp in public 'you bloody gimp' is what Mr. Shaw does in essence. That person with a limp may be more graceful, it depends upon who is judging. Why he thinks he needs to denigrate is a more important question. It is a question he will never ask.

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Oct 19 - 04:46 PM

Now as for climate change we can hope we will do everything possible including a bit of luck to avoid the runaway effect.
What stands in our way is the petroleum industry and that nearly every private vehicle and every vehicle of war like tanks and planes run on petroleum.

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Mr Red
Date: 02 Oct 19 - 04:47 PM

Dunno about him and his poetry, but the above is total bollix. Nickel is a metallic element with one kind of atom. Ni. Methane is a molecular gas made of nothing but carbon and hydrogen atoms. C and H.   Not exactly interchangeable, huh, even by very very very clever bacteria.

Ever heard of a catalyst? I am not specifically aware that nickel (in context) is, but yes bacteria are clever in that they evolve a lot faster than us. Ask a scientist before discrediting the possibilities.

As Donald Rumsfeld said about unknown knowns - someone has probably observed something we did not! Or will convert your unknown unknown soon.

Someone posted recently, in this parish, about nickel rash, so it is not totally inert. and first on the web search is Nickel Catalysts

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Oct 19 - 05:21 PM

Mr. Red, Bastard that he is, Rumsfeld did come to mind. No not you Mr. Red, you're not a bastard. And if you are you're a damn fine one :^/

caution this is a thinking man's link

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Oct 19 - 05:23 PM

I'm very disappointed with you, Mr Red. Yes I've heard of catalysts and I know what they do, thanks. Now why don't you tell us about those bacteria instead of semantically skirting around just to defend poor old Donuel? Somewhere, in some application or even in some living organism, there may well be a nickel catalyst that can produce methane from something else that contains carbon and hydrogen atoms. I'm actually not interested enough to look into it. I'll take your word, as long as you've told me that you've checked it out. But nothing I know of in the realms of science can convert nickel to methane. I'd love to say End Of, but I have three twisters and turners busting their guts to find fault with that somewhat bald truth. Now either I quit the thread or I question my own sanity. I think I'll take the former path...

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Mossback
Date: 02 Oct 19 - 05:48 PM

You're right, Bruce - I messed up.

But What I NEED to do (and should have done) is ignore you completely.

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 Oct 19 - 05:59 PM

feel free.

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Oct 19 - 07:04 PM

Bejaysus I can read all right, and this is what I read:
"bacteria that converts nickel to methane..."
What the original scientific paper says is:
"The Siberian volcanoes could still be part of the story of the Permian Extinction Event, says Rothman. They were probably responsible for a sharp increase in nickel deposits that the authors found in ocean sediments from the time. In known methane-spewing microbes, the metal is a crucial component of enzymes involved in the reactions that produce the gas. The availability of nickel is in fact a limiting factor to these organisms' growth, so nickel from the volcanoes could have caused a runaway effect in Methanosarcina, says Rothman, and eventually death for other species."
Other papers suggest that increased temperatures diminished oxygen levels in the oceans and also increased metabolic rates of organisms leading to massive diebacks. Others suggest that whatever in the oceans was not killed by oxygen starvation were nobbled by green sulphur bacteria giving off hydrogen sulpide(0.1% in air will kill a human)
The explanation given for the Siberian Traps and associated vulcanicity is a mantle plume, which rose until it impacted against the bottom of the Earth's crust, producing volcanic eruptions through the Siberian Craton. It lasted less than 1 million years but left behind Earth's biggest "large igneous province," a pile of lava and other volcanic rocks about 720,000 cubic miles (3 million cubic kilometers) in volume.
The big unknown both then and today is the impact of feedback mechanisms.A few ideas below

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3357779/

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Oct 19 - 07:22 PM

And yet (sword of truth here we go), no organism known to humankind can convert nickel to methane. Not even Lord Percy in Blackadder II could have done it. Were I able to CONVERT metals into substances with entirely different elements and with no trace of the original metal, I'd be as rich as Croesus. And a miracle worker.

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Oct 19 - 07:28 PM

And, beardie, you seriously need to shut up about the mods. You come here, lazily spouting your bile/obscure shite (read post and delete as applicable), and they have to try to keep multiple threads on track and bellends like you under control. Show a little humility and a little dignity, why don't you.

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Oct 19 - 07:40 PM

Listen very carefully, no one is to stone anyone until I use the word 'nickel' to... wump bam bam boink wham

Its the Monty Python 50 year anniversary this week.


We are looking at an extinction event from the inside of an extinction event. We are about 1/3 of the way in to a near total extinction. If you are 50 or more you have seen it with your own eyes. If we are not part of the solution we are all part of the problem. Waitng for a Tech solution ignores the severe behavior changes that are required. For that reason alone I am skeptical
mankind has the will to change.

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Iains
Date: 03 Oct 19 - 04:07 AM

As far as I can see the decay series of nickel48 to nickel80 do not produce hydrogen or carbon(Unfortunately )

If you care to reverse the process with hydrogen all sorts of things are possible but Humans would not want to be anywhere near

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 Oct 19 - 11:34 AM

There are a lot of moving parts contributing to the climate crisis, and the resource extraction that goes into things like the Amazon grocery delivery bags is one we need to tackle sooner rather than later.

I was reading remarks on a thread elsewhere and one fellow complained that why bother with water bottles and straws when there are so many chip bags and drink cups and such that are plastic . . . I guess you take on the battles as you identify them. I don't buy single serving bags of chips, and it is possible to buy things like tortilla chips in wax-lined paper bags. There's a lot of plastic everywhere, but buying food in bulk is one answer (you can get reusable light mesh bags for grocery store use). It usually gets to the store in a larger package, often recyclable cardboard is involved.

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Oct 19 - 12:31 PM

We're braced for Hurricane Lorenzo at present
Nuffin' to do with climate change of course, we had similar only last 1839
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 Oct 19 - 01:41 PM

"Reading contemporary accounts, the impression is that if Ireland did not have such magnificent cliffs forming a barrier along our west coast, the entire country would simply have been engulfed by water."

I posted this story on Facebook yesterday: https://www.wunderground.com/cat6/Category-2-Lorenzo-Speeding-Towards-Wednesday-Blow-Azores-Islands

Wednesday, the Azores, Friday, Ireland.

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Iains
Date: 03 Oct 19 - 02:26 PM

We had similar regularly. Ohelia 2017,then Ali,Bronough, Leslie, Adrian, Diana, Gabriel,Helena, Isias, Freya, Laura. All with winds recorded in excess of 90mph. What makes this storm potentially nasty is saturated ground and trees still in leaf(this evening). In coastal areas prevailing winds bank up water but we are also just coming off the crest of a spring tide, so storm surge coupled with high tide can cause havoc, besides extreme waves posing a danger. Right now the extreme SW seems to be diminishing but sea areas Rockall and Bailey are still building to storm force 10 and 11. Could be a wild night in the offing up north.

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Oct 19 - 02:49 AM

I don't think we can over emphasise the importance of changing everyone's mindset to help combat climate change. As SRS says there are many factors in play here. Maybe there are some we can do nothing about. Maybe, as Donuel says, something as yet unknown will play a part. Although I must point out that this could be bad or good! But none of this should stop us from changing what we can change for the better. Little steps are all it takes to get things rolling. Stop using plastic bags and switch off unused lights today. Get ready for bigger changes to come!

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: JHW
Date: 05 Oct 19 - 05:35 AM

We'll all be gone when it happens. Just keep re-arrangeing the deck chairs. What Iceberg?
Bit of a surprise that industrialisation was so short lived relative to the life of the Earth. Two hundred years of trains, a hundred years of cars and it's done for. Was nice while it lasted.

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Oct 19 - 09:22 AM

That seems to be Trump's view - heck with the future generations, this generation wants to keep making money, so remove all of the environmental regulations.

A future with lower carbon dioxide in the atmosphere will be different for everyone. Greta has made good points about the current generation in power not doing more, too busy arguing about if climate change exists (yes, it does) instead of how to address it now. At this rate, the next dominant species will pass through the remains of human settlements with solar panels on the roofs and and the lights still on but no one home.

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Oct 19 - 10:21 AM

Yes there is room for hope when all the stops are pulled and solar power is employed to maximum effect, when wasted energy in reduced and random breaks go our way. Fear is an ultimate motivator, so be very afraid.

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Oct 19 - 01:12 PM

It's far from rearranging the deck chairs. It's doing something positive. Little wonder that things are not changing as quickly as they should with that attitude. We have seen the iceberg and are doing our best to avoid it. Those who deny its existence are a dwindling minority. Those who know it's there and do nothing are part of the problem.

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Oct 19 - 02:54 PM

You have your canary in the coal mine and then you have your frog in the water of global warming...until it boils.

plant more trees. wildfires need to eat too.
burn the amazon. McDonalds needs more burgers
buy the new 12,000 HP Expedition. it gets an ounce per meter

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Oct 19 - 10:53 AM

No more single-use plastic bags in the help-yourself fruit and veg in Sainsbury's. You can buy a reusable mesh bag instead for 30p. More of that will do me!

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Oct 19 - 11:22 AM

Bought a reusable string bag in Mossers yesterday. They are being trialed in 4 stores including Skipton. For £1 they are well worth it but Sainsbugs 30p ones sound a bargain!

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Oct 19 - 11:29 AM

You can buy canvas bags, nylon bags, ripstop (parachute) nylon that are reinforced, or a non-woven polyester-type bag just about anywhere around here these days. Grocery stores, bookstores, feed stores, clothing stores - they're branded so you pay a little bit then advertise a lot. The back seat of my car is full of them so when I head into a store I step to the back seat and pull out as many as I think I'll need.

When the groceries are in the house and the bags unpacked they are hung over the doorknob on the side door so they are carried back to the car next trip out. Repeat. And occasionally, throw them in the washer.

Meanwhile, posts that are added simply to start fights are destined to be removed, as are the responses. That applies around the site in general, to no one's surprise. Play nice.

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Oct 19 - 12:45 PM

Yup. I have a bag bag full of bags for life and always containing a couple of super strong wine carriers (in case of unexpectedly-spotted 25%-off-six jobs). It lives in me car but there are always one or two slung over a chair in the kitchen.

Apologies for my reaction to that post. Greta Thunberg is brave and committed and I understand that her caring adults are solicitous for her wellbeing. She is breaking the law by not attending school 'tis true but, as far as I can make out, she is not actually in active conflict with the law. She is keeping up with her schoolwork and will return to school after a year out. Yes we can't all do that but, just for once, I think we can allow her to be the amazing exception that she is. Her teachers support her activism but say The Right Thing about her missing school, as they would. She doesn't alway say things the way I'd put them but in my view she's putting an awful lot of influential yet procrastinating adults to shame. The ones who troll her with ad hominems, the Piers Morgans of this world, merely diminish themselves.

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Oct 19 - 01:10 PM

That is called a "Gap Year." Understood on both sides of the pond.

Someone remarked about chip bags and such on a post about recycling water bottles, and there is a point - those mylar bags are a problem. The point of recycling the bottles is because at least the plastic can be reused. Another thing that became apparent, though wasn't mentioned in an essay I read today, is that most of these movements to recycle, to buy in bulk with your own containers, to not put everything in the landfill, is largely managed by and aimed at urban populations.

I lived out in the county for a few years when I was at the university, driving in 30 miles for classes. And when I had enough bags of separated glass and plastic on the porch I'd load them in the back of the pickup and drop them off at the campus recycle center. I was probably the only person on that end of the lake doing anything about recycling. They probably still don't recycle out there. They haul their own trash to the dump and everything goes in it. We really do need to look at some of these services the way the Rural Electrification program worked years ago - if you don't include everyone in the benefits of this society, those who are on the outside will lobby for it's destruction.

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Oct 19 - 01:39 PM

As I said earlier, recycle should be the third option. After reduce and re-use. Recycling is good and far preferable to wasting resources but reducing consumption should be the priority and reusing items removes the need to use energy recycling.

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Oct 19 - 11:34 AM

I wonder at times if the human race is worth saving. When the press lauds eco vandals like Trump as heroes yet pillories someone like Greta, who is trying to save the earth, then something is seriously wrong. When people then start to believe it, my faith that humans are basically good is shattered.

Of course I will continue doing my best for my children, grandchildren and the rest of mankind's future but please excuse me if I seem to begrudge trying at times :-(

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 08 Oct 19 - 11:44 AM

We all can do something. Today's load of laundry hung on the clothes line to dry is a small act, but it's a little less electricity being drawn from my house. One of these days I'd like to put solar panels on the roof, but I'm not there yet (I need to address the foundation issues before I do anything else big.)

Trolling isn't an eco-friendly act and it doesn't win friends or influence people, it simply brings the conversation back to focus on the troll, his object from the very beginning. Several perfectly acceptable posts have otherwise disappeared because they included a throw-away line with name calling or the challenging of moderation. It is possible to post entirely opposite points of view if they are on topic and presented to contribute ideas to the conversation.