BS: climate crisis - how do we go from here?

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 08:34 AM

Imagine a person actually thinking thay are combating global warming by using a multi use grocery bag. Its laughable if not sad.

To actually make a dent in the exponential change in climate would require government and individual spending on infrastructure that ( I estimate) is many times an individual or corporate annual income. Who do you know that would make that sacrifice? Even if successful things will get worse before it gets better in the midst of all the sacrifice.

While we are clever, Humans may value comfort over the cost of changing our ways. I doubt we will choose cost over comfort.

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: gillymor
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 08:58 AM

What's sad is your descenion into trollery.

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 09:07 AM

Donuel. An individual using a multi-use bag will not combat climate change. No-one has said that they will. Whole nations stopping the use of throwaway plastic bags will not only help the climate, it will help the environment. Remember that the longest journey starts with a single step. Many have already made that commitment. Why do you chose to mock them instead of doing something positive?

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 09:12 AM

Realism is not trollery. :^\
Where we need to go is furthering our mindset about global warming and advance making our planet into a paradise that could be and not as it is today. Keep your eyes on the prize despite our darkest doubts.

The one thing I liked about ST TNG is the depiction of our positive change in our social psyche and abandonment of greed.

As aware as we have become of the problem, we have not yet begun to fight. We must know what we are fighting for and what we are fighting against gillymor

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 09:13 AM

It's baby steps, Don. Big things like the Paris Climate Accord have to be back on the table as soon as this administration is truncated. People doing things consciously at least shows awareness. Just like declining straws won't make a difference, at least there is a fad-like inkling of the problem as it exists.

https://storyofstuff.org/

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 09:21 AM

Dave about bags, Steve said it. He will deny it but so what.
I have seen the vast improvement of our streams with the cut back on plastic bags. I have also seen the impact of extinctions.
Truths are painful when brutally honest. There will be more success to come but there wil be more pain.

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 09:23 AM

Where we need to go is furthering our mindset about global warming

And how does mocking those that are starting to change their mindset, even in small ways, help? You may have transcended the mundane but many of us have not. Let us catch up and don't tell us we are laughable or sad for trying to help!

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 09:28 AM

I know the difference between Opportunituld we ignore bstaclesies and obstacles.
I thought it was helpful for all of us to know both.
Should we ignore obstacles or are they too obvious to mention?

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 09:30 AM

Not only will Steve deny it Donuel but I will too. Nowhere has anyone posted that reusable bags will combat climate change as a standalone measure. They are part of that mindset change that we need and to dismiss them as laughable or sad is damaging.

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 09:32 AM

I have no idea what your last post meant. Sorry :-(

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 09:36 AM

I will have my doubts and you will have your opinion that I am a diabolical troll. For people on the same side, its hard to find allies these days.

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 09:44 AM

this is what I blindly wrote:
.
I know the difference between Opportunities and obatacles.
I thought it was helpful for all of us to know both.

Should we ignore obstacles or are they too obvious to mention?
I think they are both impoetant. If I am the enemy to the cause it is news to me.

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 11:42 AM

I don't believe you are a diabolical troll for one minute. Just that you are mistaken that small acts are laughable or sad. And thanks for the explanation. I also know the difference between opportunities and obstacles. I also know, corny as it sounds, that obstacles present opportunities to surmount them. Anything is possible.

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 02:58 PM

Baltimore law suit against oil and gas causung known climate change goes to the Supream Court

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Oct 19 - 11:01 AM

We need a national holiday that people could spend money on the cause. A holiday like Halloween converted to the threat of desth to our planet.

I heard we spend billions on Halloween. Is that true?

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: gillymor
Date: 11 Oct 19 - 12:18 PM

I think you're on to something there, Donuel. Maybe we could roll up some of those manufacturerd holidays and maximize Earth Day. At the very least it could raise awareness and educate people.

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Oct 19 - 12:59 PM

The competiveness and whimsy of Hallowen has probabl reached its peak. Combining Halloween with climate change along with a foundation of a death theme could be called something, but what? And how would it be competivtive?

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Oct 19 - 01:15 PM

Corporate sponsorship that would include the most vulnerable corporations to climate change like corporate farms would be good.
What other corporations are most vulnerable?

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 11 Oct 19 - 02:40 PM

i've always thought that we should have glastonbury festival monday off (Michael Eavis day) there are about 200,000 people who will be too wasted to work anyway. glastonbury has always supported good causes - CND, water aid, enjoy yourself, greenpeace etc. so it would easily become climate awareness day/week or whatever.

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Oct 19 - 05:13 PM

Rupert Read of Extinction Rebellion was excellent on Question Time last night, measured, reasonable and articulate, in complete contrast with the dreadful and disreputable Julia Hartley-Brewer, who appears to be a climate-change denier of the I'm-proud-of-my-pig-ignorance school of non-thought, and the waffly archetypally-smug Toryboy Grant Crapps...oops, Schapps...

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Oct 19 - 05:59 PM

Jane Fonda was arrested on the Capitol steps today for protesting climate change.
She has planned a fire alarm friday and get arrested every friday.

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Oct 19 - 06:23 PM

As I used to bollock Keith for misspelling names, I really must correct myself. It's Grant Shapps.

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Oct 19 - 06:25 AM

In an effort to know our own mind better I suggest googling human negative bias. Its natural and organic

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Iains
Date: 18 Oct 19 - 06:47 AM

Others appear to share my views about Greta:


https://www.newstarget.com/2019-10-16-citizens-report-greta-thunbergs-parents-to-child-services.html

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 18 Oct 19 - 11:05 AM

That isn't news - that's some crackpot's opinion telling about other crackpots.

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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Oct 19 - 06:13 PM

BBC getting it in the neck on Feedback, rightly in my view, for giving Extinction Rebellion scant coverage. One comment was that the recent spat between two footballers' wives had received even more coverage. You can give coverage without it being assumed that you're biased in favour. I'm a big supporter of the Beeb, but that criticism is well deserved.

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Oct 19 - 01:32 AM

The coverage of the XR demos they do show does have a marked tendency to concentrate on the ‘sensational’ incidents - people climbing of the roofs of trains, groups of individuals blocking emergency services’ access, etc. - which is understandable - sensation sells news after all, and ‘people behaving peacefully’ aren’t really ‘sensational’, are they?

But there’s a far deeper message that is affecting us all and which our national broadcaster ought to be putting across, and it’s a shameful fact that they seem, once again, to be avoiding reporting fairly on an issue our government, headed as it is by Mastro Gepetto Trump’s Pinocchio, don’t want us to hear.

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Iains
Date: 19 Oct 19 - 04:08 AM

This is an argument over the change in atmospheric CO2 from 0.03 to 0.04%. The value 0.04% is the same as that of water vapour, another greenhouse gas. Does such a change really have impact suggested?
Much of the time PROXIES are used to construct paleo data. This has its own inherent problems when it comes to extrapolation. The IPCC and MSM may claim the science is settled, I am still sceptical

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/earth-and-planetary-sciences/paleotemperature

You should also ask why "Global Warming" morphed to "climate change".
Climate has always changed, the evidence is irrefutable.

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Oct 19 - 08:46 AM

Some people think, however briefly, that their post, tweet or clicking 'like' will change the evolution of climate change. Sure it will :^/

The only person you can influence is yourself. How do you go from here? Will you use your savings? Can you buy influence with 100 billion dollars?

Or do you really honestly care. Does extinction of Tigers really motivate you to your core. Do Tigers care if you live or die? Well they probably do if you are tasty.
Do you care about animals? If you hit a Squirel with your car, do you stop the car and help?

If you live for your cause thats great. All I am saying is that most people will devote 5 hours or 5 dollars and thats about it.

I bet Iains has done both but thats about it. Whatever we have done for the cause I am confident that we spend more time carping about it than ever possibly changing the world.

oops have I been too honest again? :^/

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Oct 19 - 09:24 AM

Stay tuned for other deinspirational rants about: Love is a long term lie, Why empathy will never win and other foibles :^/

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: gillymor
Date: 19 Oct 19 - 09:54 AM

As long as you know what the hell you're talking about.

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Oct 19 - 11:44 AM

Some people think, however briefly, that their post, tweet or clicking 'like' will change the evolution of climate change. Sure it will

The thing is, Donuel, that everyone understands that these small insignificant actions will not in themselves prevent climate change. No one is pretending that they will. The cumulative effect of tiny changes by millions of people can however can be significant.

How is your taking the piss of people who are trying to do their bit in their own way help in any way, shape or form?

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 19 Oct 19 - 02:55 PM

indeed. imagine if you made some changes to your personal life to live more healthily and to be more environmentally aware. imagine if at a national level our govt made real efforts to reduce emissions and to pursue greener cleaner policies. and imagine that was replicated across large parts of the world. then, surprisingly, the climate change deniers and the people who now oppose making an effort were proved to be right. how foolish would you feel if you had got yourself, your environment and the world all healthy and green , and local communities all united in positive endeavours and all along there had been no need as the planet was fine all along. imagine how shit that would be........

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Oct 19 - 03:22 PM

I do not know the phrase "taking the piss of people". Perhaps you meant pissing on people.
When I write some posts I hear a comedy stand up routine but many people do not find a Lewis Black sarcastic style funny. That I do find it funny, is what matters to me. Just like a post of your own that matters to you.

Many people get their news from comedy tonight while a petulant president calls the NYT and the Washington Post fake news.

In these Orwellian times, up is down and right is to the left of left which does not feel right.

On the other hand I still wish you wierd and wonderful healing even in your hips.

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Oct 19 - 03:43 PM

Pete you remind me of the idealism I felt when I first heard the song 'Imagine'. Perhaps the song could be tweaked for global warming.
Kudos

What I say or do feels like it won't really matter. Don't you think others feel that way about something as enormous as global warming?
This may be the issue that needs to be front and center.
Global warming will take hundreds of years to slow down before reversal even begins.

If only there was some instant gratification by doing our bit to defeat our eventual killer of our great grand children. I know less about their future lives than my great grand father.

Instead of isolating one sentence in quotes and debating it, we should see a discussion as a evolutionary discovery process and not a true or false credo to live by.

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Iains
Date: 21 Oct 19 - 06:09 AM

One easy contribution, many posting here could make, is simply to go on a diet.
Overweight people are a drain on valuable resources, especially half the world has insufficient food.
Overweight people cost more to transport
Overweight people put an unfair strain on medical facilities

Inevitably overweight people have a larger carbon footprint than thinner people.

Perhaps in this modern politically correct world overweight people should be fat shamed for squandering the world's resources.

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Oct 19 - 06:45 AM

Hitler had similar concerns. His plan - Exterminate and then perpetuate with Eugenics. Of course the Nazi elite were exempt.

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Oct 19 - 07:05 AM

I hear that if Bercow does allow the MV and any amendments to it, the Government will withdraw it.

So they are not prepared to have amendments proposed even though they could vote them down. That suggests they are not at all confident that they would win the amendment votes.

I accept that any amendment passed would probably put the Government is such a tricky place that they would rather not take the risk, but it hardly oozes confidence, does it?

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Oct 19 - 07:15 AM

Taking the piss means making fun of, Donuel.

Google can be you friend if you are ever unsure of these things. I had no idea who Lewis Black is until I looked him up. You are nothing like him.

So, how does taking the piss of people who are trying to help improve the climate crisis?

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Perry_P
Date: 21 Oct 19 - 09:11 AM

I see the usage of electric cars and renewable energy is getting more and more popular every day. I expect people will follow a new path regarding the climate crisis and I'm optimistic about the future.

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: gillymor
Date: 21 Oct 19 - 09:11 AM

I haven't seen his act in a while but I recall that Lewis Black was actually funny.

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: matt milton
Date: 23 Oct 19 - 03:24 AM

Just finished reading Naomi Klein's 'On Fire: the Burning Case for a Green New Deal'. That sets out detailed, eloquent ways to address climate change (asdp pretty much any of George Monbiot's books).

The Green New Deal is eminently googleable and I suggest anyone interested does so. In the UK,Labour and the Green Party have been drafting a comparable proposal.

It's gratifying that the UK has set itself a zero emissions target of 2050, and that Labour would wish to do so by 2030. However, Labour aren't in power and the current government is not acting in ways that will get us to net zero by 2050.

There are 20th century historical precedents for the systemic change governments have adapted in short amounts of time: World War II; the Marshall Plan; Roosevelt's New Deal. All of which prove that, when governments really want to, they can transform their nation's economies, manufacturing, energy generation, infrastructure etc in an incredibly short space of time. We could get to net zero sooner than 2050 if the real political will was there but it requires wholesale reshaping of industry.

The fact that nice middle-class people like me are increasingly terrified by the urgency of this situation, and are baffled by the inaction of governments, make it increasingly likely that peaceful protests will eventually turn into violent protests. There's only so many times you can lie to your 6-year-old son when he asks you if there's still time to fix climate change.

We're on a path to a situation where hundreds of thousands will die and life as we know it will irrevocably change. We know what to do. We have known what to do for over 30 years.

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Iains
Date: 23 Oct 19 - 04:25 AM

A slightly different perspective


https://www.adamsmith.org/blog/the-end-is-nigh-again

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: matt milton
Date: 23 Oct 19 - 05:10 AM

It’s a wide-ranging collation of mostly unattributed ‘predictions’. I prefer to stick to the IPCC thanks.

“Some of these came from reputable scientists, and some from headline-hungry popularizers”. Great, well done there AdamSmith.org. Who says quality journalism is dead?

And the ones that are attributed vary in their sources from Prince Charles to Al Gore to Gordon Brown, though do include James Hansen.
I will give that article the benefit of the doubt over what it says Hansen said, and whether it was indeed a wholesale ‘prediction’ or not. But the fact is, sea levels are rising and arctic ice sheets are melting, global temperature is increasing.

It’s typical of this kind of article: they don’t try to engage with expert opinion on what is actually happening now, but throw in a potpourri of random distracting unattributed stuff by people who aren’t experts, some of it pretty ancient.
Species extinction, melting Arctic ice sheets, ocean acidification, coral bleaching, increases in extreme weather events, an alarming global increase in temperature since 1900 (and an alarming increase in global temp since 1960). All actually happening.

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: matt milton
Date: 23 Oct 19 - 05:24 AM

It strikes me that you could just as easily write a feature citing any number of climate scientists shocked by arctic ice melting much quicker than they had anticipated. That’s the trouble with selectively reporting predictions as a rhetorical device.
Related:
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/climate-consensus-97-per-cent/2018/jun/25/30-years-later-deniers-are-still-lying-about-hansens-amazing-global-warming-prediction

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: matt milton
Date: 23 Oct 19 - 05:56 AM

What that adamsmith article tells me is this:

If even the sceptics are no longer questioning that climate change is happening, and are reduced just to citing worst-case-scenario predictions that have not (yet) come to pass, then there’s your proof that we are well and truly screwed.

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Oct 19 - 06:08 AM

There's a world of difference between serious science predicated on mountains of solid evidence and a random bunch of prophesies, some based on a bit of hearsay science and others the spoutings of publicity-seeking contrarians. Intelligent conversations about these things depends on intelligent and critical appraisal of sources, otherwise we're wasting our time.

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Iains
Date: 23 Oct 19 - 06:56 AM

As soon as the Guardian is quoted to validate any kind of argument the I am afraid credibility has gone for a hike.

Intelligent conversations about these things depends on intelligent and critical appraisal of sources, otherwise we're wasting our time.

This to some is blindingly obvious! Alas alack many just hoover up the given narrative like sheep.

When paleoclimates are known to the nth degree.....
When climate models work flawlessly........
When all cyclical variations both of the earth and sun are fully understood......... to name but a few

Then perhaps meaningful discussion can begin. Until such time all we have are opinions.
and consensus does not a science make! even when rubber stamped by the IPCC

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: matt milton
Date: 23 Oct 19 - 07:26 AM

Consensus doesn't make science (that's more empirical research, testing and experimentation) but consensus does assess its worth,via peer review.

I'll skirt over your unilateral flat out rejection of reading anything published in the Guardian (despite yr expectation of others to read features stuffed with unattributed miscellanies).

“When paleoclimates are known to the nth degree.....” No: the implications of the instrumental temperature record alone are worrying enough. I’d go further, the temperature rises in the last 20 years are worrying enough for it to be foolish not to be rapidly decarbonizing.

“When climate models work flawlessly” No: models will always be models and there will always be some discrepancy between modelling and practice. We don’t have time.

“When all cyclical variations both of the earth and sun are fully understood”. Is there significant scientific evidence that the numerous worrying phenomena of species extinction, global surface temperature increase, Arctic ice cover retreat, coral bleaching and extreme weather events are caused purely by cyclical variations of the earth and sun? If so, please link to it, I’m very interested to read it.

Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: matt milton
Date: 23 Oct 19 - 07:36 AM

If you don't want to read the Guardian, how about the Royal Society?

https://royalsociety.org/topics-policy/projects/climate-change-evidence-causes/question-6/