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Origins: DOM PEDRO

Lighter 14 Sep 19 - 08:17 PM
GUEST,Starship 14 Sep 19 - 09:16 PM
Mick Pearce (MCP) 15 Sep 19 - 06:29 AM
Lighter 15 Sep 19 - 08:11 AM
Mick Pearce (MCP) 15 Sep 19 - 04:35 PM
Steve Gardham 15 Sep 19 - 05:22 PM
Mick Pearce (MCP) 15 Sep 19 - 06:01 PM
Lighter 15 Sep 19 - 06:29 PM
Lighter 15 Sep 19 - 06:31 PM
Mick Pearce (MCP) 18 Sep 19 - 10:04 AM
Lighter 18 Sep 19 - 12:54 PM
Lighter 18 Sep 19 - 01:33 PM
Steve Gardham 18 Sep 19 - 04:27 PM
GUEST 18 Sep 19 - 04:53 PM
Steve Gardham 18 Sep 19 - 05:00 PM
Lighter 18 Sep 19 - 06:26 PM
Lighter 18 Sep 19 - 06:33 PM
Mick Pearce (MCP) 18 Sep 19 - 07:07 PM
Lighter 18 Sep 19 - 07:33 PM
Mick Pearce (MCP) 19 Sep 19 - 03:32 AM
Lighter 19 Sep 19 - 07:07 AM
Steve Gardham 19 Sep 19 - 08:15 AM
Mick Pearce (MCP) 19 Sep 19 - 11:24 AM
Lighter 19 Sep 19 - 12:18 PM
Mick Pearce (MCP) 19 Sep 19 - 01:13 PM
Steve Gardham 19 Sep 19 - 01:25 PM
Mick Pearce (MCP) 19 Sep 19 - 02:08 PM
Steve Gardham 19 Sep 19 - 04:02 PM
Steve Gardham 19 Sep 19 - 04:10 PM
Mick Pearce (MCP) 19 Sep 19 - 05:22 PM
Mick Pearce (MCP) 19 Sep 19 - 05:39 PM
Steve Gardham 19 Sep 19 - 06:07 PM
Steve Gardham 19 Sep 19 - 06:08 PM
Steve Gardham 19 Sep 19 - 06:12 PM
Steve Gardham 19 Sep 19 - 06:14 PM
Lighter 19 Sep 19 - 06:53 PM
Mick Pearce (MCP) 19 Sep 19 - 07:34 PM
Lighter 19 Sep 19 - 08:40 PM
Lighter 19 Sep 19 - 08:57 PM
Lighter 19 Sep 19 - 09:23 PM
Steve Gardham 20 Sep 19 - 11:18 AM
Mick Pearce (MCP) 20 Sep 19 - 12:56 PM
Lighter 20 Sep 19 - 03:48 PM
Steve Gardham 20 Sep 19 - 05:21 PM
Mick Pearce (MCP) 20 Sep 19 - 05:52 PM
Mick Pearce (MCP) 20 Sep 19 - 05:56 PM
Lighter 20 Sep 19 - 06:44 PM
Steve Gardham 21 Sep 19 - 08:44 AM
Lighter 21 Sep 19 - 11:30 AM
Lighter 22 Sep 19 - 11:21 AM
Mick Pearce (MCP) 22 Sep 19 - 12:59 PM
Lighter 22 Sep 19 - 01:32 PM
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Steve Gardham 22 Sep 19 - 05:00 PM
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Subject: Origins: DOM PEDRO
From: Lighter
Date: 14 Sep 19 - 08:17 PM

There's been almost no discussion on Mudcat (or anywhere else) of this American forebitter printed by Joanna C. Colcord in "Roll and Go" (1924) and set to the "Derry Down" tune now seemingly inseparable from "The Dreadnought."

The bark "Dom Pedro II" is mentioned in the shipping news of the New York Herald (June 29, 1860), p 10, having arrived in Boston "from Bahia, via Holmes' Hole."

The final mention I've found of "Dom Pedro II" is in the Savannah Morning News (June 24, 1904), p. 11. The previous day she'd been cleared or Baltimore from Key West.

The NY Herald (Dec. 20, 1861), p. 8, notes the Pedro's arrival in Kanagawa on Sept. 23. On Sept. 23, 1865, (acc. to the Herald of Nov. 1), she arrived in Hong Kong from Singapore.

I haven't noted any arrival in Shanghai, as in the song, but then I haven't searched everywhere.   Dom Pedro, however, clearly made voyages to the Far East in the 1860s.

Trivia:
The Washington Times (May 18, 1915), p. 7. mentions that one of "Pedro's" old captains was H. H. Kiehle, of Baltimore, who at one time had also commanded the (handy, bandy) bark "Campanero." At the time of the article, only four American windjammers (not including Dom Pedro II) were still rounding the Horn.

Although the DT credits Colcord as its source of the song, it includes a "hi derry, ho derry" chorus that is *not* in Colcord.

What's more, the tune is different.


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Subject: RE: Origins: DOM PEDRO
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 14 Sep 19 - 09:16 PM

Posting this to get it here in the event it's been missed.

https://terreceltiche.altervista.org/the-dreadnought-shanty/


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Subject: RE: Origins: DOM PEDRO
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 15 Sep 19 - 06:29 AM

According to Roud(2236 - ignore the Mistletoe Bough - obviously an error!), Alan Lomax recorded it in 1938/1939 from Captain Richard Maitland and Cecil Sharp collected a version under the title Don Pedro in 1915.

As you say Colcord gives the simple Derry-down chorus, but the copy in DT seems to have the chorus from The Sailor's Alphabet. The verse tune seems to be a version of The Yellow Handkerchief/Flash Company, the chorus a bit like Threshing Machine! (Colcord's tune reminds me of The Flying Cloud).

I'll see about putting up Colcord's tune later today.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Origins: DOM PEDRO
From: Lighter
Date: 15 Sep 19 - 08:11 AM

Confusing the issue, The [Baltimore] Sun reported (Dec. 21, 1877, p. 4) that *another* bark Dom Pedro II " was launched at Baltimore in 1877, built specifically for the Brazilian coffee trade.

This may be the vessel mentioned in 1904, above.

Pedro II, Emperor of Brazil, ruled from 1831-1889.


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Subject: RE: Origins: DOM PEDRO
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 15 Sep 19 - 04:35 PM

Here's Colcord's tune - a Derry Down.

Mick


X: 1
T:Dom Pedro
M:6/8
L:1/8
B: Songs of American Sailormen - Joanna Colcord
K:Dm
A|ABA GFE|FED ^C2
w: It's of a flash pack-et, a pack-et of fame
C/C/|D>ED FED| CDE F2
w: She be-longs to New York and Dom Pe-dro's her name.
F|EDC CDC| CDC c2
w: She's rammed up and jammed up on deck and be-low,
^c|dAA BAG| AGF|G2
w: We're bound for Shang-hai in the Dom Pe-de-ro,
F/E/|D3 A3| G>FE D2|]
w: Sing-ing down, down, down de-ry down!


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Subject: RE: Origins: DOM PEDRO
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 Sep 19 - 05:22 PM

Hi Mick
Tried to access the Sharp tune ms but it wouldn't play. Have you had any luck?


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Subject: RE: Origins: DOM PEDRO
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 15 Sep 19 - 06:01 PM

No Steve. When I try to access the media item I get a Loading message that just hangs there. It seems to be https://media.vwml.org/images/web/CJS2/SHA-01-3079.jpg In fact I've just tried a few others and can't seem to access vwml media at all.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Origins: DOM PEDRO
From: Lighter
Date: 15 Sep 19 - 06:29 PM

Alan Lomax recorded a version of the song from Doerflinger's prominent singer, Richard Maitland in NYC in 1939.

Unfortunately, it remains unpublished.


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Subject: RE: Origins: DOM PEDRO
From: Lighter
Date: 15 Sep 19 - 06:31 PM

The link doesn't work in the States either.


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Subject: RE: Origins: DOM PEDRO
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 18 Sep 19 - 10:04 AM

Ok, vwml media server seems to be ok again and I could finally access the Sharp ms version of the Don Pedro. I'm having some trouble with Sharp's writing on the last line of the song, so perhaps someone could have a look at that.

The verses are mostly similar to the Colcord version, but with 1 different (unrelated) verse in each version. The tune is a variant Derry Down tune, though Sharp notes it in 3/4 compared to the 6/8 notation in the Colcord version.

Mick


DON PEDRO
Capstan Chantey

O it's of a flash packet, a packet of fame
She belonged to New York and Don Pedro's her name.
She's rammed up and jammed up on deck and below,
We're bound for Shanghai in the Don Ped-e-ro,
Der-ry down, down, down de-ry down

2/Now that pilot came down and these words he did say
Get ready all hands for the ship's going away
We braced up our yards and gave her the slip
And its down New York Harbour this packet did rip.

3/O the man at the wheel's name, I think it was Ned,
The chief mate went aft and asked how does she head
He looked at the compass and made this reply
South East and by East is as high as she lie.

4/Now we are sailing down off Cape Cod
Where many is the flash yankee packet has trod
When the mist it breezed up and the water did boil
And at 8 bells at night we clewed up our Main Royal

5/Now we are sailors down unto the line
We catched all the rain water we had plenty of time
We filled up all our casks as you now plainly see
And we shaped our course for the Port Of Shanghai

6/Now we're arrived in the port of Shanghai
We'll all go ashore strange faces to see
We'll lay up on the yards and furl all the sails
Excepting the spanker that hangs in the brails

7/Now we've discharged our cargo we are now taking in
We're expecting to go back to New York again
And when we get there so jolly we'll be
We'll be 20? jolly sports?(men?) all the way from Shanghai.


Source: Cecil Sharp mss, image file SHA-01-3079.jpg


X: 1
T:Don Pedro (Capstan Chantey)
M:3/4
L:1/4
S:Sharp MSS - from Harry Perrey aboard the St.Paul, July 22, 1915
O:On board ship en-route from UK to USA
K:Dm
D/D/|D A A| "^(a)"A G [AE]|F G F|E2
w: O it's of a flash pack-et, a pack-et of fame
F/F/|D D D|F E F|G F G|A2
w: She be-longed to New York and Don Pe-dro's her name.
A|A G A|c c c|d c A|c2
w: She's rammed up and jammed up on deck and be-low,
c|d c d|A F [AF]|F G F|"^(b)"E2
w: We're bound for Shang-hai in the Don Ped-e-ro,
C/C/|D3|A3|F D E|D2|]
w: Der-ry down, down, down de-ry down
"^(a)"A A G|"^(b)"E2 E/E/|"^(b)"E2 D/C/|
w:* * *|* * *|* * *|


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Subject: RE: Origins: DOM PEDRO
From: Lighter
Date: 18 Sep 19 - 12:54 PM

Thanks, Mick!


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Subject: RE: Origins: DOM PEDRO
From: Lighter
Date: 18 Sep 19 - 01:33 PM

For those who like their trad songs in concert style:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uE136MWE04A

Nice job.


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Subject: RE: Origins: DOM PEDRO
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Sep 19 - 04:27 PM

I'm pretty certain they are both from the same person, Harry Perry, which is why they are so close in text but several years apart. As you say Sharp wrote it down from him on the way back from America aboard the St Paul, and we don't know for certain when Colcord noted it down from him but it could have been something like 10 years later, plenty of time to remember another verse and forget an old one. If I am right the differences in tune would make a fascinating study, apart from the textual differences. Also we don't know to what extent Sharp and Colcord were merely taking an impression of the tune. A musicologist might be able to explain why Sharp's in most places is about a tone above what Colcord noted.


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Subject: RE: Origins: DOM PEDRO
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Sep 19 - 04:53 PM

Okay I got that last message totally wrong, I thought someone had told me that Colcord's singer was a Harry Perry. I got my wires twisted somewhere. Mick says the Colcord tune is Dick Maitland's and the text somebody Star. The senility pills aren't working.


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Subject: RE: Origins: DOM PEDRO
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Sep 19 - 05:00 PM

By heck, it's along time since I had to reset my cookie! Done now.


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Subject: RE: Origins: DOM PEDRO
From: Lighter
Date: 18 Sep 19 - 06:26 PM

Steve, it's easy to get confused between threads. Here's the relevant part of what I posted to the "Derry Down" thread a few days ago:

Joanna C. Colcord's "Roll and Go" (1924) sets "Dom Pedro" to the "Derry Down" tune.

In the much expanded "Songs of American Sailormen" (1937), Colcord identifies the singer as Mr. Harry Perry, alias "Jimmy Star" (of whom Colcord tells us no more).    ("Star" also contributed canonical versions of "The Banks of Newfoundland" and "Row, Bullies, Row.")


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Subject: RE: Origins: DOM PEDRO
From: Lighter
Date: 18 Sep 19 - 06:33 PM

It would be nice to see a comparison of Maitland's and Perry's tunes.

Also to know if they were shipmates.

Perry ("Jimmy Star") sang for Colcord, Maitland for Lomax (and Doerflinger, but "Dom Pedro" seems not be in Doerflinger's book.)


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Subject: RE: Origins: DOM PEDRO
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 18 Sep 19 - 07:07 PM

Lighter - the first abc I posted above is from Colcord, 1938 and she says that's Maitland's tune (though Star's words). Do you mean you'd like to see the two tunes on adjacent staves; I can edit the abcs to do that if you like.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Origins: DOM PEDRO
From: Lighter
Date: 18 Sep 19 - 07:33 PM

Mick, so far as I can tell, Colcord makes no mention at all of Dick Maitland.   

What's quite startling, though, is that both Sharp and Colcord got the rare "Dom Pedro" from somebody named Harry Perry.


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Subject: RE: Origins: DOM PEDRO
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 19 Sep 19 - 03:32 AM

Lighter - That was me reading it off the page! Bottom of page 178 (opposite the start of The Dom Pedro) in my copy:

One of the few songs arising in the China trade is the ballad of the Dom Pedro, also sung by Jimmy Star. This New York clipper bark, built for the coffee trade with Brazil, was later put into the China run. As is shown by the rhymes, the sailor pronunciation of the North China port was at that time "Shanghee." The crew's dissatisfaction with the food, and the captain's attempt to convince them that it is "first-class grub," is amusingly set forth in the fifth stanza. The words are Jimmy Star's while the tune is that used by Captain Richard Maitland.


Where does the Jimmy Star = Harry Perry come from, btw?


Mick


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Subject: RE: Origins: DOM PEDRO
From: Lighter
Date: 19 Sep 19 - 07:07 AM

Mick, just as I was about to grab some of Steve's senility pills. I took the precaution of triple-checking *my* copy of Colcord [1938; rpt. N.Y.: Oak, 1964], pp. 175-76 [sic!].

But here's what I see:

". . . The crew's dissatisfaction with the food, and the captain's attempt to convince them that it is "first-class grub," is amusingly set forth in the fifth stanza."

This is followed immediately by the song! Immediately after "The Dom Pedro"comes the paragraph beginning,

"The next song ['The River Lea' ] was composed by a contemporary shantyman, name Sam Peck. . . . "

No mention of Maitland! WTF?!

Star = Perry is in the Preface, p. 7 [sic]:

"Those to whom acknowledgment was made in the foreword to _Roll and Go_ were Captain Edward H. Cole, Captain Frank Seeley, Mr. John Donnelly, U.S.N., Mr. Harry Perry, also known as 'Jimmy Star,' and Mr. J. F. McGinnis."

Could credit to Maitland have been added in a post-1938 printing? Is he mentioned in your copy's acknowledgments?


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Subject: RE: Origins: DOM PEDRO
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 19 Sep 19 - 08:15 AM

I return to my original senility thanks to Jon. I don't normally do coincidences like this. The similarities between the 2 versions and the time gap and the vagaries of noting down tunes aurally make me believe they came from the same person, unless Jon and I are taking the same pills.


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Subject: RE: Origins: DOM PEDRO
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 19 Sep 19 - 11:24 AM

Jon - My edition is dated 1938 and Maitland is given an acknowledgement just after the sentence you quote from the Preface (thanks for the Star=Perrey reference!). Some of these good friends have since gone to Fiddler's Green. To their names should be added Mr.Sam Peck, Captains Victor Slocum, Richard Maitland and Mr.R.M.Davids, all former seafarers who have "swallowed the anchor."

Where did they go in the reprint?!

Mick


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Subject: RE: Origins: DOM PEDRO
From: Lighter
Date: 19 Sep 19 - 12:18 PM

Mick, this gets curiouser and curiouser.

My 1964 rpt. more or less includes the sentences you give as directly following the name of McGinnis.

But mine reads,

"Some of these good friends have since gone to Fiddler's Green. To their names should be added Mr. Sam Peck, Captain Victor Slocum, and Mr. R. M. Davids, all former seafarers who have 'swallowed the anchor.'"

New editions sometimes delete material, but for a mere "reprint" to silently remove an *acknowledgment* in two places - one of them within the body of the text is a new one on me!

Possibility: Maitland's name was added in a later *printing" (which would have the same 1938 copyright date), while an earlier printing was the basis of the 1964 Oak publication.


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Subject: RE: Origins: DOM PEDRO
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 19 Sep 19 - 01:13 PM

It could be a later printing, but there is no indication. The copyright page gives:

Enarged and Revised Edition
Copyright, 1938, by

W.W. NORTON & COMPANY, INC.
70 Fifth Avenue New York

A FORMER EDITION OF THIS WORK ENTITLED
"Roll and Go, Songs of American Sailormen"
WAS PUBLISHED IN 1924 UNDER COPYRIGHT ISSUED TO
THE BOBBS-MERRILL COMPANY, INDIIANAPOLIS, IND.

PUBLISHED IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
FOR THE PUBLISHERS BY THE VAIL-BALLOU PRESS


As you say curious! It would be nice to hear one of the Maitland recordings!

The chorus given in Colcord is also interesting. The Sharp version has a simple Derry down. I wonder if the Merrily... chorus came from Maitland's version?


Mick


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Subject: RE: Origins: DOM PEDRO
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 19 Sep 19 - 01:25 PM

My 1938 edition has the same dedications as Mick's.

This edition published by Bramhall House, a division of Clarkson N. Porter, Inc., by arrangement with W. W. Norton & Company, Inc.

The preface says
Grateful acknowledgment is also made to Mr. Nelson Sprackling for his help in recording the songs sung by Captain Richard Maitland for the second edition'.


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Subject: RE: Origins: DOM PEDRO
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 19 Sep 19 - 02:08 PM

I have the same acknowledgement Steve. I presume 2nd edition in this context just refers to the 1938 edition, with 1924 being the first, despite the slight name change.

Jon - Out of interest is the tune given in the reprint the same as my first abc above? (15 Sep 04:35)?

Mick


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Subject: RE: Origins: DOM PEDRO
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 19 Sep 19 - 04:02 PM

I'm ashamed I missed this, the 2 tunes are nothing like. The 38 version is obviously not Perry's, it's a variant of Vilikins/Sailor's Alphabet as far as I can see, and surely must be Maitland's tune. The plot thickens. I have both books. I'll check the texts now and report back.


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Subject: RE: Origins: DOM PEDRO
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 19 Sep 19 - 04:10 PM

Sts 2 to 7 are identical and there's only one word different in the 1st st 1st line.

24. It's of a flash packet, a packet of fame,
38 It is of a flash packet, flash packet of fame,

It doesn't affect the metre so presumably 38 is closer to what Maitland sang. I suspect Maitland only knew the first verse, so she combined Maitland's tune and chorus with Perry's text.


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Subject: RE: Origins: DOM PEDRO
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 19 Sep 19 - 05:22 PM

Steve - ignore my comment at 01:13 about the chorus; my turn for senility pills! The tune in the DT, with the Sailor's Alphabet chorus is not Colcord's tune (which is the reason I posted the 1st abc above, which is Colcord's tune, and is a Derry Down). At the moment we don't seem to know where the DT tune came from. (And I keep meaning to check the DT lyrics to see that they really are Colcord's lyrics! I'll do that now).

Mick


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Subject: RE: Origins: DOM PEDRO
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 19 Sep 19 - 05:39 PM

Now ignore my last comment completely - Mudelf can delete it.

The DT tune is in fact the version in my 1938 copy. But the tune I posted as my first abc (the Derry Down) is the tune as given in the Oak Reprint. I confused myself; I have a digital edition I bought as well as the 1938 hard copy I've got. I posted the abc from the digital copy without realising it was different from the hard copy.

And as Jon pointed out above, the references to Maitland are not present in the Oak reprint. (I've just compared the index in the 2 vols, same songs except the hard copy includes Paddy Get Back, not listed in the Oak edition)

Does anyone know if it was printed in the 1924 edition?


Mick


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Subject: RE: Origins: DOM PEDRO
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 19 Sep 19 - 06:07 PM

It's not in either of my copies 24/38 according to my indexes.


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Subject: RE: Origins: DOM PEDRO
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 19 Sep 19 - 06:08 PM

I presume you mean the chantey, Paddy Lay back.


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Subject: RE: Origins: DOM PEDRO
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 19 Sep 19 - 06:12 PM

More senility...it is at p121 in 38. Cuts me up somewhat to look at it, one of our chanteymen who sang this regularly passed away last night.


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Subject: RE: Origins: DOM PEDRO
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 19 Sep 19 - 06:14 PM

Not in Roll and Go.


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Subject: RE: Origins: DOM PEDRO
From: Lighter
Date: 19 Sep 19 - 06:53 PM

Steve and Mick, this is not really happening, correct?

"Paddy Get/ Lay Back" is not in my '64 reprint.

Could someone post the words?

Maitland, of course, gave a version to Doerflinger.

It wouldn't be the same one, would it?

P.S. No ref. to Nelson Sprackling in '64, either.

Naturally.

A theory is forming in my brain, but I won't present it without further information.

Has the '24 "Dom Pedro" (credited to Perry/ Star?) the Derry Down tune, as in '38 & '64?


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Subject: RE: Origins: DOM PEDRO
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 19 Sep 19 - 07:34 PM

Here's Paddy Get Back. The version in Doerflinger has more couplets but starts with the same one. I'll check the tune tomorrow.

It's too late to check now, but could the extra things in the 1938 hard copy be just the things that came from Maitland? Needs a more detailed look to check.

38 and 64 have different tunes for Dom Pedro (38 The Sailors' Alphabet chorus one, 64 Derry Down). I haven't got 24, but I see there's a copy for sale on Amazon UK; I might be tempted!

Mick


PADDY GET BACK

I was broke out of a job in the city of London,
I went down to Shadwell docks to get a ship.
'Twas in the middle of the cold month of November;
And I thought 'twas time to make another trip.

  Chorus:
  Paddy, get back, take in the slack!
  Heave around the capstan, heave a pawl, Heave a pawl!
  'Bout ship and stations and be handy,
  Rise tacks and sheets and mains'l haul!


There was a Yankee ship a-lying in the Basin;
She was bound for New York, the boarding-master said.
If I ever lay hands upon that boarding-master
[It will be a month before he leaves his bed.]

The pilot left the ship way down the Channel,
And the captain said we was bound around the Horn.
[He said that if we did not do our duty
He would make us wish we never had been born.]

The mate and second mate belonged to Boston,
The old man hailed from Bangor down in Maine.
The three of them was rough-and-tumble fighters,
[The treatment that we got, it was a shame.]

We were called on deck one night to reef the topsails;
Belaying pins was a-flying about the deck.
The mate he got ahold of me by the collar:
"If you don't sing a song I'll break your neck."



Source: Joanna Colcord, Songs of American Sailormen, 1938


The notes are:

A late-comer among shanties was "Paddy Get Back." Words and air both suggest that it was not one of the "reg'lar oldtimers"; it must have begun life, perhaps as late as the 'seventies or 'eighties, as a forecastle song with a music-hall origin, and have been adapted to capstan use in the last days of sail. I believe that it appears in no other collection, and I have heard it sung only a few times.
It is evident that the song must originally have consisted of quatrains, with second and fourth lines rhyming; but I have been able to collect only scattered and unrhymed couplets. I have taken the liberty with this song of piecing them together, writing a line here and there, to develop the "pattern" which seems to be indicated. In the version which follows, the interpolated lines are enclosed in brackets.
There must have been endless additional verses describing the sailors' treatment on a "hard case" ship. The air is that used by Captain Richard Maitland.


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Subject: RE: Origins: DOM PEDRO
From: Lighter
Date: 19 Sep 19 - 08:40 PM

Thanks very much, Mick.

I see I can get a hard copy of "Roll and Go" from our university library this weekend. Will do so.

My copy of Doerflinger is the 1990 "edition, with additions and modifications," so beware.

Besides the variations in words and in the number of stanzas, the most obvious difference between the version you post above and the one in Doerflinger (both credited to Maitland) is that the couplets of the latter tell the same story but *never rhyme*!

This makes me wonder whether the singer's memory was going by the time D. recorded him. All of M's chanteys in D. are flawed in a similar way.

Moreover, the refrain switch from '38 to '64 is quite bizarre.


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Subject: RE: Origins: DOM PEDRO
From: Lighter
Date: 19 Sep 19 - 08:57 PM

MMario posted the Doerflinger version of "Paddy Get Back" here:


/mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=54759#851207

The version of "Paddy" that Maitland sang for Alan Lomax in 1939 is not quite identical to the version in Doerflinger. A few words are different, one or two stanzas are added or missing - but once again nothing seems to rhyme.

An unforgettable part of the recording occurs when Maitland loses patience with Lomax:

Maitland: ... The solo is sung by the shantyman sitting on the capstan head... while the crew, walking around the capstan, are singing. . . .

Lomax: And show us where the pull ... comes.

Maitland: That's what I'm telling them now. This "Paddy, get back" is the chorus --

Lomax: And that's where they pull.

Maitland: There's no pull in a CAPSTAN SHANTY! They're walking around the capstan with the BARS!


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Subject: RE: Origins: DOM PEDRO
From: Lighter
Date: 19 Sep 19 - 09:23 PM

I see we *do* have a transcription of Maitland's "Dom Pedro" lyrics, as recorded by Lomax in 1939. It appears in Duncan Emrich's enormous but tuneless "American Folk Poetry" (Boston, 1974), pp. 525-26. (Emrich was formerly chief of the folklore section of the Library of Congress..)

Maitland-Lomax is very much like the text in the DT, attributed to Colcord, 1938. Both have the "Ho derry" chorus. There are various verbal differences, mostly trivial. The stanza with the captain reading a book, however, is absent from the Lomax version. Most everything in it that should rhyme, does rhyme.

It does seem that by 1964 all references to Maitland were silently and mysteriously expunged from Colcord's 1938 first printing.


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Subject: RE: Origins: DOM PEDRO
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 Sep 19 - 11:18 AM

Is it possible that Lomax or Doerflinger was claiming some sort of right to Maitland's material by 64?

I have 24 and 38 and can copy anything you want and send it. My Doerflinger is the 72 2nd edn.

Love that dialogue between Lomax and Maitland. Not seen that before.

Did Colcord, Lomax and Doerflinger all record Maitland independently? If so what are the dates of their recording?

There's some Maitland stuff in Emrich's 'Folklore on the American Land' but not Dom Pedro.


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Subject: RE: Origins: DOM PEDRO
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 20 Sep 19 - 12:56 PM

Steve on the recording aspects. Roud lists the Lomax recordings in 1938 and 1939. It took me a while to find the Doerflinger audio information; this record at LOC Doerflinger Tapes, gives the recording dates by Doerflinger as Jan 38 to Feb 40, so these two were recording at more or less the same time, but I presume independently. Bob Walser worked on the Doerflinger tape copy, do he may know more (and he published an article on Doerflinger too).

According to Roud, Paddy Get Back was recorded by Lomax in 39.

I don't have the info for Joanna Colcord.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Origins: DOM PEDRO
From: Lighter
Date: 20 Sep 19 - 03:48 PM

Steve, some legal claim occurred to me too as a likely explanation for Maitland's vanishing from SoAS (which cost the publishers money to do), but it's hard to imagine what such a claim might have been, who filed it, or why.

Sorting out the texts, tunes, and singers, however, is undoubtedly the best we can do.

I'll have a look at 1924 in the next day or two.

Mick, thanks for the link. There's a separate collection of recordings Doerflinger made of Captain Patrick Tayluer in 1942. Its details are eluding me at the moment.


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Subject: RE: Origins: DOM PEDRO
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 Sep 19 - 05:21 PM

Colcord published in 38 so allowing for preparation and proofreading etc, let's say a year, which would make Colcord the earliest to record Maitland. Did Lomax get Maitland to sign some sort of exclusivity document? If he did then presumably that would also have excluded Doerflinger though. The Indiana Ballad List might have someone who would know.


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Subject: RE: Origins: DOM PEDRO
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 20 Sep 19 - 05:52 PM

Jon - There's a LOC index record for the Tayluer recordings that I came across looking for the Doerflinger. I'll check my history and see if I can pull it up in a minute.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Origins: DOM PEDRO
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 20 Sep 19 - 05:56 PM

LOC - Doerflinger recordings of Tayluer.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Origins: DOM PEDRO
From: Lighter
Date: 20 Sep 19 - 06:44 PM

Thank you.

Somebody needs to transcribe and publish the material the Doerflinger didn't put in his book ... including a few verses that he thought too ribald for print.

(Chiefly in "Sally Brown," "Ratcliffe Highway," and "The Red-Light Saloon.")

That's what it's archived for, right?


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Subject: RE: Origins: DOM PEDRO
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 21 Sep 19 - 08:44 AM

I'm presuming these recordings are not available online otherwise I would suggest the 3 of us split them, transcribe or check against what was published.


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Subject: RE: Origins: DOM PEDRO
From: Lighter
Date: 21 Sep 19 - 11:30 AM

Not online so far as I can tell.

The associated index cards are easily viewable, however.

Not quite good enough, unfortunately.


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Subject: RE: Origins: DOM PEDRO
From: Lighter
Date: 22 Sep 19 - 11:21 AM

Steady yourselves, buckos.

Before me is a hard copy of Roll and Go (Indianapolis: Bobbs-Merrill, 1924). However, it does not say "First Edition" and the number of the printing is not given.

118pp., + unp. Plates, Acknowledgments, Introduction, Illustrations, and Foreword. The Foreword is dated "November, 1923."

No Maitland.

No "Paddy, Get Back."

No "Hi-derry "chorus.

"Dom Pedro" is set to the "Derry Down" tune.

And if you think this is a pretty tough yarn, a search of "Roll and Go" (1924) on both Google Books and HathiTrust confirms all of the above.

Are your copies British printings, perhaps?

Otherwise, I be blowed!


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Subject: RE: Origins: DOM PEDRO
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 22 Sep 19 - 12:59 PM

Jon - the 38 edition was a revised and enlarged edition of Roll And Go, Songs of American Sailormen (the 24 edition). As you can see from the 38 copyright page I posted above, it has:

  A FORMER EDITION OF THIS WORK ENTITLED
  "Roll and Go, Songs of American Sailormen"
  WAS PUBLISHED IN 1924 UNDER COPYRIGHT ISSUED TO
  THE BOBBS-MERRILL COMPANY, INDIIANAPOLIS, IND.

The 38 edition was published under the shorter title Songs of American Sailormen.

I too had just been looking at Roll and Go... and noted the same things you did and was wondering if the 64 reprint was of the 24 edition. I'd planned to compare them properly later tonight.

My 38 hard copy is a US edition:

  PUBLISHED IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
  FOR THE PUBLISHERS BY THE VAIL-BALLOU PRESS


Mick


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Subject: RE: Origins: DOM PEDRO
From: Lighter
Date: 22 Sep 19 - 01:32 PM

Mick, my '64 Oak reprint is of the '38 "Songs of American Sailormen.," with that title and copyright date.

The Maitland material must have been added after "Roll and Go" and then deleted for reasons unknown.


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Subject: RE: Origins: DOM PEDRO
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 22 Sep 19 - 04:33 PM

I thought we had already established all of this.

As far as I can work out my R&G is a first, But the intro by Lincoln is also dated 1924. The book was owned by somebody in 1928. It was published by Charles E. Lauriat Co., Boston. The acknowledgements credit Sharp, Terry and Whall for material. It also interestingly credits Snug Harbour for pictures.


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Subject: RE: Origins: DOM PEDRO
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 22 Sep 19 - 05:00 PM

Sorry got mixed up. yes my foreword is 1923.


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