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BS Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019

robomatic 23 Sep 19 - 09:37 PM
Stilly River Sage 23 Sep 19 - 09:48 PM
Mr Red 24 Sep 19 - 03:45 AM
The Sandman 24 Sep 19 - 03:48 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Sep 19 - 03:53 AM
Big Al Whittle 24 Sep 19 - 04:11 AM
Iains 24 Sep 19 - 04:21 AM
Steve Shaw 24 Sep 19 - 05:24 AM
Backwoodsman 24 Sep 19 - 06:16 AM
robomatic 24 Sep 19 - 06:30 AM
Iains 24 Sep 19 - 08:15 AM
Bonzo3legs 24 Sep 19 - 08:19 AM
Steve Shaw 24 Sep 19 - 08:34 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Sep 19 - 08:39 AM
Big Al Whittle 25 Sep 19 - 04:46 AM
Rain Dog 25 Sep 19 - 05:51 AM
Steve Shaw 25 Sep 19 - 06:03 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Sep 19 - 07:05 AM
Rain Dog 25 Sep 19 - 07:50 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Sep 19 - 08:18 AM
Steve Shaw 25 Sep 19 - 09:36 AM
Rain Dog 25 Sep 19 - 09:46 AM
Steve Shaw 25 Sep 19 - 09:54 AM
Big Al Whittle 25 Sep 19 - 11:12 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Sep 19 - 11:46 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Sep 19 - 12:07 PM
Rain Dog 25 Sep 19 - 12:31 PM
OldPossum 25 Sep 19 - 01:57 PM
Big Al Whittle 25 Sep 19 - 02:59 PM
Jim Carroll 25 Sep 19 - 03:30 PM
Backwoodsman 25 Sep 19 - 03:36 PM
Big Al Whittle 26 Sep 19 - 03:49 AM
Acorn4 26 Sep 19 - 03:51 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Sep 19 - 04:09 AM
Iains 26 Sep 19 - 04:40 AM
Mr Red 26 Sep 19 - 05:16 AM
Jon Freeman 26 Sep 19 - 06:28 AM
Steve Shaw 26 Sep 19 - 06:57 AM
Big Al Whittle 26 Sep 19 - 06:50 PM
Donuel 26 Sep 19 - 07:07 PM
Big Al Whittle 26 Sep 19 - 11:04 PM
Jim Carroll 27 Sep 19 - 02:40 AM
Big Al Whittle 27 Sep 19 - 03:53 AM
Big Al Whittle 27 Sep 19 - 03:54 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Sep 19 - 04:13 AM
Big Al Whittle 27 Sep 19 - 05:16 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Sep 19 - 06:11 AM
Backwoodsman 27 Sep 19 - 06:31 AM
Jon Freeman 27 Sep 19 - 06:35 AM
Jon Freeman 27 Sep 19 - 06:39 AM
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Subject: Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: robomatic
Date: 23 Sep 19 - 09:37 PM

I have had a little something to do with Thomas Cook in the past. I once did some traveling in Europe with their travelers checks. Otherwise I'm pretty ignorant as to how much of a historical fall is being charted with this news. The present
Thomas Cook Group is majority owned out of Germany. A few years ago the historical Thomas Cook & Son was acquired and became Thomas Cook Group.

It isn't so good to go suddenly and leave a lot of travelers in uncertain conditions while hedge funds are reaping the rewards of their big shorts.

I supposed this is a historical falling of a big name if nothing else.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Sep 19 - 09:48 PM

There was quite a long interview on one of the NPR news programs this evening. Marketplace, maybe? If speculators got rich on the demise of this company and all of it's employees and customers, something is very broken. A lot of the practices in the stock market these days were illegal a few decades ago. For a good reason.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Mr Red
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 03:45 AM

can we blame it on Trump & Brexshit?
Or the uncertainty that has followed in their wake?

The answer will be argued over in years to come, but the answer has to be "in part".

The worms are crawling out of the woodwork.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 03:48 AM

how about this ,who were Cooks Bankers?were the ChinesE involved as providers of capital as well, is there a possibilty of retaliation by the chinesE , for the applalling burning of their flasg in hong kong? if there was cia or mi5 agents causing trouble in hong kong, is it possible that China [as a shareholder?or financial provider then sabotages the company? these are questions.
were the chinese involved as a financial provider or shareholder in Thomas Cook?if so why did they withdraw
Thomas Cook had been proceeding with a £900m rescue package that would result in majority shareholder, the Chinese conglomerate Fosun, taking control of its tour operator arm, as well as a minority stake in its airline in return for £450m of capital. ... Thomas Cook declined to comment. Downing Street declined to comment.
off topic..
can you imagine the furore if the chinese burned the uk flag in london.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 03:53 AM

"can we blame it on Trump & Brexshit?"
PROPHETIC WORDS IGNORED
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 04:11 AM

The real mystery is what Cook's directors have been paid a bonus for?


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Subject: RE: Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Iains
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 04:21 AM

Like several other tour operators Thomas Cook failed to adapt to a changing market. Who goes to a travel agent when the same can be done online ?
Blaming Brexit is a cop out. What should be looked at is the fat cats profiting from a failing business model.
Thomas Cook simply follows on the heels of Monarch who went bust a couple of years ago this year Superbreak and LateRooms announced they had gone into administration.
Thomas Cook has experienced problems for some time, long before the EU Referendum was even announced. Thomas Cook can be said to have faced problems from four fronts - those being financial, social, political and meteorological.


    Weather issues, volcano eruptions and other meteorological events have impacted the bottom line
    The rise of budget airlines and online travel agents have increased competition in the market.
    Social trends have also been changing, with more Britons booking flights and holidays separately, rather than through package holiday providers such as Thomas Cook.
    Thomas Cook has also had to adapt to changing political climates in the UK and around the world - for example, terrorist attacks. .


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Subject: RE: Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 05:24 AM

No government bailout. Correct decision, not just that good money shouldn't be thrown after bad either. When capitalists crow about how we need vast profits "for investment," shareholders sitting on their arses making money for doing nothing, competition making things better, must incentivise the top dogs with huge unearned bonuses blah blah, they seldom focus on these rather embarrassing failures. There are plenty of those. Just walk down any high street for your evidence.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 06:16 AM

Says it all...

The Magic Money Tree was shaken for thr greedy, reckless bankers too - to the tune of £800 billion. Iceland jailed their greedy, reckless bankers. Just sayin’.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: robomatic
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 06:30 AM

Sounds like a solid postmortem will get done in the money trades and business schools. I was wondering if they had purchased any Boeing 737 MAX planes. . .


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Subject: RE: Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Iains
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 08:15 AM

They would be unhappy campers if they had! Are they not all grounded still?


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Subject: RE: Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 08:19 AM

If people must book holidays with such companies, what else can they expect???


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Subject: RE: Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 08:34 AM

Their money back.


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Subject: RE: Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 08:39 AM

I have little doubt that the rush to blame the victims of Brexit will serve some of its apologists equally as well when they start blaming those who voted for it as the country sinks further into the mire
Thomas Cook is just one in a growing line which sank under the weight of the gross stupidity of this decision
Beats blaming the last Government, which is the standard, kneejerk excuse for failure, I suppose
The "own feet" Britain is going to stand on are sinking into the klarts as each day passes
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Sep 19 - 04:46 AM

Apparently the boss was paid 8 million for his expertise that led us to this point.


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Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Rain Dog
Date: 25 Sep 19 - 05:51 AM

Jim Carroll posted "This is down to Brexit and you are making excuses for that fact"

No it is not down to Brexit.

Brexit will have played a small part in it, no doubt, but the problems with Thomas Cook have been going on for a number of years.

In 2011 it seems they had about £2bn of debt. Reports seem to suggest that at the point of collapse they had a debt of £1.6bn. I imagine that the debt amount might well turn out to be a lot bigger once the dust has settled.

You cannot simply blame everything on Brexit.


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Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Sep 19 - 06:03 AM

If it pisses down when I'm planning a barbecue, that's entirely down to brexit and you know it!


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Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Sep 19 - 07:05 AM

"Brexit will have played a small part in it, no doubt, but the problems with Thomas Cook have been going on for a number of years."
As is the case with all industries since the referendum
In May the BBC reported that Brexit was already causing crisis of confidence problems regarding international Travel - Thomas Cook featured as one of those then
That Cook has its own problems does not alter the fact that Brexit has been a major issue in their downfall
BRANSON'S STATEMENT HERE suggests they might not be the last
Denying is this is to totally ignore the other businesses that have gone belly up or pissed off
GO CHECK WITH AN ARCH BREXITEER
OR ANOTHER
THIS CROWD HAVE IT SUSSED
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Rain Dog
Date: 25 Sep 19 - 07:50 AM

With regards to Thomas Cook you are simply wrong Jim. Trying to service huge debts while having virtually no assets to speak of, will probably turn out to be the main reason for their failure. Try and keep to the facts. There is just so much 'useless noise' with regards to Brexit on this board.

Steve it was raining very hard here this morning. I resisted the temptation to blame Brexit.


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Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Sep 19 - 08:18 AM

"you are simply wrong Jim. "
Don't think so RD - Brexit has made the future of too many businesses to show
From the Guardian
"Brexit
“There is now little doubt that the Brexit process has led many UK customers to delay their holiday plans for this summer,” said the chief executive, Peter Fankhauser, in May. That account chimed with rivals’ and it is possible that uncertainty around the latest Brexit deadline of 31 October infected the banks’ mood. So, yes, one can say Brexit helped to push an already teetering Thomas Cook closer to the edge."
It goes on to say that this isn't the whole story, but it certainly played a major part
BRANSON'S SUMMARY OF THE EFFEXTS OF BREXIT
Denying the inevitable effects on the future of these companies is flying in the face of reason and letting Brexit off the hook
Sorry - I quite often find myself agreeing with you - not this time
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Sep 19 - 09:36 AM

I want to blame brexit for everything that brexit can be blamed for, which is quite a lot. But I'm not going to dilute my argument by clutching at straws and jumping on bandwagons. If brexit has helped to nobble Thomas Cook, it's played a very small part only. Thomas Cook appears to have been badly run for many years and with its huge number of high street shops it's been looking like a high street dinosaur for ages. Jet2, one of its biggest and most successful competitors, hasn't got a single shop. As they say over the water, go figure.

Raindog, brexit was definitely to blame when my toasted teacakes got burnt yesterday. Don't try to deny it!


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Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Rain Dog
Date: 25 Sep 19 - 09:46 AM

Blame Brexit for burnt teacakes? No way. Surely that is down to climate change Steve?


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Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Sep 19 - 09:54 AM

Yebbut climate change is brexit's fault, as we all know!

I notice that the bus-building company that made the Boris brexit bus has gone into administration. Now let me think...


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Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Sep 19 - 11:12 AM

I wish I had had a job that paid eight million quid. I'd remain inside the Arab League for that.

In fact one million quid would have been nice.


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Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Sep 19 - 11:46 AM

"I wish I had had a job that paid eight million quid"
If overpayment was an issue we would have lost far mor businesses that Thomas Cook Al
Amazing how these issues anly become issues when Brexi is involved
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Sep 19 - 12:07 PM

Can I just make my position clear here
Despite th fact that th most memorable holiday we have ever spent was a two-week trip on the Nile on one of TC's (small) boats, I hold no brief for the firm and certainly the way they and others obscenely overpay their executives
What worries me is, when Brexit sets sending Britain tumbling like Babylon, you Brexiteers will defend this crass decision wiv - "Nuffin' to do wiv us Guv- must have been the incompetent and overpaid management or the lazy workers" - or something else entirely - anything other than those who voted to and drive Britain over this now clearly visible cliff
All the danger signs of Brexit are glaringly obvious - I have yet to meet a Brexiteer prepared even to discuss them - bver mind acknowledge the dangers
Lemmingist self-harm at its worst
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Rain Dog
Date: 25 Sep 19 - 12:31 PM

At the risk of repeating myself, I don't believe that Brexit had a major part in the downfall of Thomas Cook.

This thread was titled Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019. It is yourself that is trying to tie it in to Brexit.

Does it worry me that you do that? Not really, seems par for the course.

Calling people lemmings just because they disagree with you, what is that about?

I voted remain. I am also sorry to see all those people lose their job.


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Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: OldPossum
Date: 25 Sep 19 - 01:57 PM

The bad news just keep coming: Thomas Cook GmbH, the German subsidiary of Thomas Cook, has now filed for bankruptcy. Welt Online report here (in German). Thomas Cook's Polish division Neckermann Polska has been declared insolvent, according to Sky News.


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Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Sep 19 - 02:59 PM

well similarly I have never met a remainer who will comment on the European court of Human Rights releasing jamie bulger's killers after eight years in children homes - no time spent in a penal institution - despite Michael howard being briefed that the only thing they were interested in was sex and violence and increasing the sentence to fifteen years.

I've never heard anyone mentioning the disaster that has led to mike Ashley hoovering up all sorts of grants to solve bolsover's unemployment crisis after shutting down the mines and hosiery trade - and then recruiting from outside the england for starvation wages.

All i hear i hear is a snarl of defiance and shit slinging, abuse - calling everyone a racist - keeping out ddecent hardworking folk. Because we've presumably our citizens turned into some sort of lumpen proletariat.

As long as we have the euro monster eating our entrails, people will not be happy. If they turn on us - as seems to be their mindset - so be it. they've done it before.


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Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Sep 19 - 03:30 PM

"I have never met a remainer who will comment on the European court of Human Rights releasing jamie bulger's killers after eight years in children homes"
What's to comment on
Bulget's killer was tried by the law and punished
Stringing people up went out with Tombstone and Wyatt Earp
Personally, I might stretch a point if it was for leaders who have decimated generations for profit - and those who stood nby silently as they did it
But I would never extend that to crimes committed by children - however bad they were
I'm a humanitarian (with a small e) Al - I can't really mae out what you are
If you believe I "snarl racist" unfairly feel free to correct me
The fats of the matter nare glaringly apparent - ask those affected by the 42% rise in hate crimes since Brexit entered our lives (or do you believe someone made them up)
Maby widower Mr Cox might put us both straight
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Sep 19 - 03:36 PM

I’ve never heard a Remainer make death-threats against Leavers, telling them they are ‘Traitors who should be arrested, marched out, and shot for treason’, or “We know who you are and where you live, and you’ll be one of the first we’ll be paying a visit when this is all over”, the way Leavers have frequently told Remainers (including me, on at least half a dozen occasions).

If I had a choice between being called a racist or having death-threats made against me, I’d settle for ‘racist’ every time.

The worst, vilest abuse by a long way has come from your Leaver cronies, check out the disgraceful, systematic abuse from our arch-Brexiteer troll on this forum. Shameful behaviour.

And passive/aggressive victim-playing by a Brexiteer is insulting too. Think on.


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Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Sep 19 - 03:49 AM

Bulger's killers ( please note plural) abducted, sexually assaulted, and murdered a two year old.

the English legal system dealt with them. The European courts ripped the judgement up, and set themfree.

I've held no brief for the English legal system - since they convened a court in less than 24 hours to sequester NUM funds. And this week in particular it has revealed once again its class loyalties.

But at least - they are in our country and we can reform them if we put our minds to it. the european courts are not within our control.

Darren Venables since his release has been prosecuted for acts of violence and downloading kiddy porn. According to the lawyer who represented them, Vennables was the stupid one of the partnership.

What if a relation of yours had been a victim - would you be feeling so Euro courts friendly?


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Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Acorn4
Date: 26 Sep 19 - 03:51 AM

Thomas Cook's main motive in going into the travel business was to assist his work with the Temperance Movement and his first excursion from Leicester to Loughborough in the early 1840s was to a temperance rally.

He gradually expanded his business on the Victorian values of thrift and hard work.

I think he might have stirred in his grave a bit when a pub bearing his name was opened in Leicester, but nothing to compare to the tremors coming out of Welford Road cemetery when he learned on the bonuses paid to TC bosses.


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Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Sep 19 - 04:09 AM

"Bulger's killers ( please note plural) abducted, sexually assaulted, and murdered a two year old."
I knw, probably better than you, exactly what happened as it took place not far from my home
What gives you the right to vault the law and demand the judicial murder of something he did when he ws little more than a child - who do you think you are, Boris Johnson ?
Capital punishment was deemed barbaric half a century ago and abolished - apparently they forgot to tell some people
Would you like to see some photographs of the victims of napalm, or the three generations deformities of the A bomb
"What if a relation of yours had been a victim "
Then I'd have been barred from sitting on the jury (which is as it should be)
Judicial murder is still murder Al
Welcome to what enlightenment there is of the 21st century
Are you serious !!!
You want barbarity ?
Did you know that Ruth Ellis, the last women to be hanged, had to wear canvas knickers at her execution because the insides of the woman before her fell out of her fanny as the rope tightened
THin of that over your tea and crumpets
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Iains
Date: 26 Sep 19 - 04:40 AM

"The immediate future of Condor, the German airline and subsidiary of the now insolvent Thomas Cook travel agency, was secured on Tuesday following the state's assurances of a €380 million ($420 million) loan.

The bridging loan from the German government and the state of Hesse, where the firm is based, was confirmed by the airline.

"This step, under the current situation, is the best for our clients, our business partners and for us. This way, we can be fully independent from the Thomas Cook Group plc and gain more security for our future," a Condor statement read.

The European Commission must now approve the loan before the money can be transferred.

German Economy Minister Peter Altmaier also confirmed that the government had approved the deal


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Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Mr Red
Date: 26 Sep 19 - 05:16 AM

Blaming Brexit is a cop out.

I predicted that Brexshit would be blamed for all sorts of price rises. Real and imaginary. I should have included failure too. When I said in part it was a reasoned, measured caveat. And it will always be true.

But, if you don't believe that a sudden major change (as yet to be clearly defined) is not going to cost industry & commerce a lot of money just in hedging the numerous bets, then you should be living in Cloud Cook Who Land. I can recommend an equally clouded company to take you there............

Just ask me!


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Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 26 Sep 19 - 06:28 AM

"well similarly I have never met a remainer who will comment on the European court of Human Rights releasing jamie bulger's killers after eight years in children homes - no time spent in a penal institution - despite Michael howard being briefed that the only thing they were interested in was sex and violence and increasing the sentence to fifteen years."

Going by the Wikipedia article

The fifteen year term set by Howard seems to have been overturned by the House of Lords before any appeals to the European Court of Human Rights:
Lord Donaldson criticised Howard's intervention, describing the increased tariff as "institutionalised vengeance ... [by] a politician playing to the gallery." The increased minimum term was overturned in 1997 by the House of Lords that ruled it "unlawful" for the Home Secretary to decide on minimum sentences for young offenders.

The only effect the appeals to the to the European Court of Human Rights seems to have had on their sentence was to trigger a review in the UK:
The European Court case led to the new Lord Chief Justice, Lord Woolf, reviewing the minimum sentence. In October 2000, he recommended the tariff be reduced from ten to eight years, adding that young offender institutions were a "corrosive atmosphere" for the juveniles.

The decision to release them seems to have been made by the Home Secretary following a recommendation by the parole board:
In June 2001, after a six-month review, the parole board ruled the boys were no longer a threat to public safety and could be released as their minimum tariff had expired in February of that year. The Home Secretary David Blunkett approved the decision, and they were released a few weeks later on lifelong licence after serving eight years.


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Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Sep 19 - 06:57 AM

"What if a relation of yours had been a victim - would you be feeling so Euro courts friendly?"

Input of that kind is an attempt to trump objectivity and has no place in rational discussion (if we can ever manage that...).


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Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Sep 19 - 06:50 PM

as a member of amnesty international I have campaigned against capital punishment most of my life. I have written many songs on the subject.

Heres one i wrote about Herbert leonard Mills. Herbert was an 18 year old Nottingham lad, the same year as derek Bentley.. Herbert wasn't a great cause celebre like Ellis or Derek or Podola, but he never deserved what happened to him.


https://soundcloud.com/denise_whittle/the-ballad-of-herbert-leonard-mills


It has nothing to do with Brexit. the knee jerk opposition to anything that isn't left wing hip pisses me off. i think it ill suits countries whose dispensers of justicewere the GRU and the Stasi to lecture us on jurisprudence.

Mind you one suspects there was a time when even those monsters had the blessing of enlightened British left wingers.


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Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Sep 19 - 07:07 PM

This is the largest repatriation of UK citizens since Dunkirk.


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Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Sep 19 - 11:04 PM

never mind....we'll be back. Vera Lynn's gig by rights.


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Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Sep 19 - 02:40 AM

And describing everything that is based on humanitarianism and common decency as "left wing" pisses me off Al
Your arguments for the State killing of sa child, as you have here has nothing to do with politics - just on our responsibility to one another as human being
The left may have made many mistakes in it's desire for equality of opportunity for all, but it was delibrat worked out and documented right wing philosophy and deliberate intention that herded around ten million human beings into extermination chambers 70 years ago and it was the right wing business worldwho provided the finances for them to do so
That is the only political issue to consider in these arguments

You may oppose Capital Punishment in words, but you've put a lot of effort in support of putting a child to death here

There's a wonderful little book (195 pages) litle thumbnail sketch of capital punishiment by the totally unknown John Dean Potter, entitled, 'The Fatal Gallows Tree' - if it were up to me I would make it compulsory reading on every education curriculum in Britain as a reminder of Britain's recent barbaric past
It finishes with this magificent description from the New Statesman, of Britain's Great and Good's last ditch attempt to keep caplital punshment of the stature books

From the hills and forests of darkest Britain they came : the halt, the lame, the deaf, the obscure, the senile and the forgotten —the hereditary peers of England united in their determination to use their medieval powers to retain a medieval institution.
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Sep 19 - 03:53 AM

You may oppose Capital Punishment in words, but you've put a lot of effort in support of putting a child to death here


Bollocks. I said the buggers needed to to be pumished. I said the public needed protection.

Your finger pointing at anyone who doesn't agree with you on every aspect is like a descant note to every posting.
Private Fraser of Mudcat....we're doooomed I ye!


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Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Sep 19 - 03:54 AM

Private Fraser of Mudcat....we're doooomed I tell ye!
Well not me, co i live in Ireland.


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Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Sep 19 - 04:13 AM

"Bollocks. I said the buggers needed to to be pumished. I said the public needed protection."
Was lethal injection a another of your jokes than Al
All any civilised society should be allowed to do is to try and punish any criminal
The criminals were punished by lw - that is enough
Taken your logic - all bcriminals should be locked up forever in case they do it again
Are you serious Al
Your snide reference of where I live puts you at the lower rungs of my estimation - don't suppose that bothers you any more than yours bothers me
Please stop demanding the right to place yourself above the law - we've got a Prime Minister who does that
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Sep 19 - 05:16 AM

no. taken my logic. the opinions of experts about the level of danger to the public should be listened to - rather than prosecution/defence lawyers playing cowboys and indians.

when it comes people who are deranged enough to want to harm others for pyschopathic fun - the combatative Rumpole versus the baddies philosophy causes problems.

my senseof humour is my problem. You sneer at my tea and crumpets, and you'll have to accept my badinage chewing on your potato cakes.


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Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Sep 19 - 06:11 AM

" the opinions of experts about the level of danger to the public should be listened to "
Sentences are passed by juries at trials nor bt self appointed experts
I've known you to denigrate experts and quotes fairly recently - you seem to want to pick and choose them as well as override British laws
These are your own views Al - stop hiding behind the "experts" who back them up
Sorry
Finished here - we have nothing to say to each other I'm sad to say
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Sep 19 - 06:31 AM

”Sentences are passed by juries at trials nor bt self appointed experts”

On a point of order Jim, sentences are not ‘passed by juries’ in the U.K. legal system, they are passed by judges. The question of guilt or innocence is decided by juries but, thank Dog, they have no say in the sentences handed out to those they find guilty.


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Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 27 Sep 19 - 06:35 AM

"Sentences are passed by juries at trials nor bt self appointed experts"

And I thought sentences were passed by the judges following guilty verdict by the juries…

I believe that judges can and do consider expert opinions such as psychiatry reports before passing sentence?

Coming back to the James Bulger case. I believe his killers were sentenced to be detained at her Majesty’s pleasure and that it was only the minimum term they must serve that changed?

I would have thought that, in deciding the pair were no longer a danger to the public and were fit for release, the parole board would also have had exert reports drawn up and considered?


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Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 27 Sep 19 - 06:39 AM

(Sorry BWM, I'd not seen your post when I made mine)


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