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BS Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019

Jim Carroll 02 Oct 19 - 03:05 AM
Big Al Whittle 01 Oct 19 - 09:37 PM
Jim Carroll 01 Oct 19 - 08:07 PM
Big Al Whittle 01 Oct 19 - 02:51 PM
Iains 01 Oct 19 - 02:14 PM
Jim Carroll 01 Oct 19 - 12:34 PM
Big Al Whittle 01 Oct 19 - 12:10 PM
Jim Carroll 01 Oct 19 - 11:34 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Oct 19 - 11:02 AM
Big Al Whittle 01 Oct 19 - 10:51 AM
Iains 01 Oct 19 - 06:27 AM
Big Al Whittle 01 Oct 19 - 12:42 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Sep 19 - 05:21 AM
Mr Red 30 Sep 19 - 03:32 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Sep 19 - 11:10 AM
Iains 28 Sep 19 - 11:01 AM
Jeri 28 Sep 19 - 10:50 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Sep 19 - 10:39 AM
Iains 28 Sep 19 - 10:13 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Sep 19 - 05:28 AM
Big Al Whittle 28 Sep 19 - 04:26 AM
Iains 27 Sep 19 - 09:00 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Sep 19 - 08:30 AM
Backwoodsman 27 Sep 19 - 07:52 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Sep 19 - 07:34 AM
Jon Freeman 27 Sep 19 - 06:39 AM
Jon Freeman 27 Sep 19 - 06:35 AM
Backwoodsman 27 Sep 19 - 06:31 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Sep 19 - 06:11 AM
Big Al Whittle 27 Sep 19 - 05:16 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Sep 19 - 04:13 AM
Big Al Whittle 27 Sep 19 - 03:54 AM
Big Al Whittle 27 Sep 19 - 03:53 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Sep 19 - 02:40 AM
Big Al Whittle 26 Sep 19 - 11:04 PM
Donuel 26 Sep 19 - 07:07 PM
Big Al Whittle 26 Sep 19 - 06:50 PM
Steve Shaw 26 Sep 19 - 06:57 AM
Jon Freeman 26 Sep 19 - 06:28 AM
Mr Red 26 Sep 19 - 05:16 AM
Iains 26 Sep 19 - 04:40 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Sep 19 - 04:09 AM
Acorn4 26 Sep 19 - 03:51 AM
Big Al Whittle 26 Sep 19 - 03:49 AM
Backwoodsman 25 Sep 19 - 03:36 PM
Jim Carroll 25 Sep 19 - 03:30 PM
Big Al Whittle 25 Sep 19 - 02:59 PM
OldPossum 25 Sep 19 - 01:57 PM
Rain Dog 25 Sep 19 - 12:31 PM
Jim Carroll 25 Sep 19 - 12:07 PM
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Subject: RE: BS Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Oct 19 - 03:05 AM

I travelled Eastern Europe without a Guide - guides in all countries will always show your the commercially lucrative and beneficial face
Far from them being oppressive, I found the opposite - the people we met were knowledgeable and articulate about what was happening in their countries
A big wake-up call for me was when we hitched over the border of Czechoslovakia on the morning the Russians opened it up after the invasion andwere taken up by demonstrating students who found us accommodation and fed and entertained us while we were there
They were not trying to end communism but to get it to clean up its act - 'The Velvet Revolution'
We used to go up to the park in Prague with them to argue with the young Russian soldiers billeted there - telling them they were wrong to be behaving as they did to their fellow communists
One of the additional oddities was the young North Viernamese soldier who joined us, - he looked as if he should be at school - he was on leave there from fighting the Yanks back home - fascinating days

I have always wanted to revisit Prague, and was intending to go until I heard from a workmate how he was crossing Wenceslas Square when he was accosted by a begging child who asked him for money and indicated repayment by shoving her hand in his pocket and began fondling his balls
I'd rather keep my memories of war-scarred 'enslaved' Prague before it was 'freed' - thanks all the same
I have yet to get any 'free us from communism' advocates to admit that these countries are now far less free and far more dangerous than they were back them

I am left with the impression that half decent musicians with half a foot in tradition would have no problems getting bookings in these countries
Old Eastern Europe tended to respect their own traditional music far more than we do in The West - you could still hear watered-down versions of it in the restaurants
John Faulkner and I once had a raging political argument in Buda Castle Restaurant where we had been taken to by a friend of MacColl's, Charlie Coutts and folklorist Lazlos Vargas
A gypsy fiddler who was entertaining us stopped the argument by leaning between us and playing his fiddle loudly
Vargas took us to meet an old lady who had given her songs to Bartok

Different now of course, but we heard traditional Rumanian and Hungarian buskers on O'Connell Street in Dublin - it's still around - worth finding out about
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Oct 19 - 09:37 PM

I know that Irish musicians worked behind the Iron Curtain, because I knew a lot who worked in East Germany. I was offered a gig in Leipzig.

However I was surprised to see all the Irish bars in Russia, and I wondered if there were Irish musicians inside. I found Russia very oppressive. The tour guide had strange ideas about English society, and she was amazed at my boldness in marchig into a big hotel to use the bog.

I am not sure that is allowed, she said.
I think the security men on the door caught a glimpse of the desperation in mt eyes.

Every guitarist loves Spain. And they like us - its their national instrument. Ordinary pub audience are frequently knowledgeable.


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Subject: RE: BS Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Oct 19 - 08:07 PM

"Well this thread is surely not the place,"
Why ?
I'm not intersted why the BBC was denied access - out of my interest and experience zone
I'm more concerned with the Young amateur and semi pro players who are now enjoying the opportunity to play in Europe - especially the thousands of youngsters coming to the music for the first time
All the signs are that that will become harder if things continue as they are
I travelled the world on my thumb in my twenties - I remember the difficulties with visas and having to plan carefully in advance - wouldn't wish that on kids who would like to try that now

Moaning about the Spaniards doesn't mean squat - Britain has never been happy in any organisation they can't control and prove their imagined superiority - we have never been joiners and we are no longer capable of being controllers - especially now we have become the laughing stock of the world
We've fucked it up for our kids and it's up to us to put it right rather than moan "it's all their fault sir"
We owe it to them to at least try
Brexit isn't "what might happen" any more - it's happening every time another industry goes belly-up

I was in St Petersburg when it was Leningrad - I wouldn't go there now if I was tied to the back of a bus and dragged - too dangerous, to greed-orientated and now robbed of the hope I saw when I was there
As far as Irish music goes - it's now possible to find it anywhere in Europe
We climed the hish steet going tint Taormina in Sicily (above the clouds) and were greeted by jigs and reel coming our of the local tavern
The Irish will continue to make sure that continues -you won't be able to say the same with the unnecessary boarders they are erecting
Stupid and self-defeating
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Oct 19 - 02:51 PM

Well this thread is surely not the place,but surely you must have noticed there are two classes of humanity - them and us .

You really think The Beatles and all those groups in Hamburg were denied access co we weren't in the EEC. You think that the tourists in Spain are going to be contented with Manuel and Juan singing Viva Espana as they drink themselves into insnsibility. These little bars will always get the acts that please their customers, and they will always pay as little as possible!

Its supply and demand. The MU, the Arts Council, BBC are all on planet posh.

THe tax situation regarding record royalties couldn't really be more labyrinthine outside than it is inside the EEC. Because I was unable to tour because of ny domestic situation, I did apply to the German authorities to pay my tax in England. It turned out I was the only persom who had ever applied for the form - which took them six months to locate,

The Spanish are a law unto themselves. One week (it made the front page of THe Stage). They turned round every English act who was heading downcoast. I was headed out next week - tell them you're playing for a private party, you Dad's wedding - the agent advised. No English acts are permitted to play on the front at Benidorm. That's reserved for Spanish acts. The English acts work the bars in side streets, or on a street called The Strip.

Either way, I know enough about the Spaniards to know they they won't give a shit what Boris or Brussels decide - they will do their own thing. Which is something I rather respect them for. Would that our own government had the same cavalier attitude to EU regulations - it might be worth remaining.

Tell me, I noticed that every street corner in St Petersburg has an Irish bar - are there many Irish blokes over there gigging? I never considered Russia as a possible source of revenue.


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Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Iains
Date: 01 Oct 19 - 02:14 PM

Big Al I gave my reasons as those forwarded by experts giving various reasons as to why the company went bust. It was a failed business model that had not reacted to a changing market. Bringing Brexit back to the table repeatedly as a reason for Thomas Cook going bust when industry experts have discounted it gets boring. I do not live in a goldfish tank and I have sufficient faculties that everytime I see something repeated it is not a brand new experience, it is simply repetition and not even disguised. It is no longer a meaningful discussion it is simply constant repetition of the remainer mantra of blame everything on Brexit. I would concede that uncertainty may have helped tip the company over the edge but realistically that is not brexit, that is the delaying tactics adopted by remainers that have prolonged the uncertainty for over three years.


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Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Oct 19 - 12:34 PM

Not the point of what it was like Al
The point is that it will be made near impossible for those wishing to tour after Brexit
I really don't mind being insulted Al - It sometimes disappoints me who does so when I happen to like and respect them otherwise
It would worry me if certain individuals didn't (no names) - I'd have to check where I was going wrong
I raised it here when you accused me of doing what you wee doing yourself - otherwis - carry on
We're supposed to be here to swap ideas and discuss opinions (that's why I am anyway)If what I put up is bullshit - why
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Oct 19 - 12:10 PM

well this is it - the practical truth and the bullshit news.

yes I was a jobbing musician (allegedly) most of my life.
I won't weary you with the facts, but being a musician is very much like anything else. Supply and demand. Nobs and workers. Europe and unacknowledged protectionism.

For your information , I had records out in Germany, Italy, Holland. Toured Spain. Offered tours in the gulf, Germany, Spain. And the Musician's Union wouldn't have pissed on me if I was on fire.

Sorry if I insulted you. I have always respected you, but on this subject of Brexit, I find myself in disagreement with you. And this descant pipe that Brexit is at the seat of every problem from blocked toilets to Boris Johnson is wearisome, not to mention screwing up every thread below the line.


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Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Oct 19 - 11:34 AM

Incidentally Al
I don't know if you earn you living at your music ot hether you have a day job, but if the former is the case, THIS WOULD WORRY ME CONSIDERABLY
I don't know too much about you, but the part of Britain I'm from and the kind of people I grew up with are going to be hit for a six when Brexit goes bad - as it already has in my part of the world, with job losses and business closures
Even the hard-done--by fishing industry is now having a change of heart about leaving
The working people the Tories claim to be working on behalf of (when did they ever do that?) are going to be hit from all sides from jobs and prices to essential medical supplies - that comes directly from the Government's own survey
I wa spealking to my sister in the South of England yesterday - her son - my nephew has a lucrative jon in what was Westland until they panicked and changed it and moved to Europe to avoid Brexit
I pointed out that he stands to lose his job because of travel restrictions to Italy - she hadn't thought about it
The way employment works in Britain nowadays, he'll be lucky if he can get a job stacking shelves at Morrison's
The Brexit referendum awas about as democratic as leading a blindfolded man into a dark room and asking him to pur a cross on a piece of blank paper
The "People's Will" my arse
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Oct 19 - 11:02 AM

"Do we really need to descend to insults. Jim"
Ask yourself that one Al - you have been doing that for quite a while now
Or you counf ask your new friend who has never risen above insulting peope who know far more than he ever wll since he arrived on this forum
This has nothing to do with "wise men of Mudcat" - the links to the surveys of what damage Brexit is doing to British industry - including Thomas Cook have been put up a dozen times - and ignored
Like this one - 30 Sep 19 - 05:21 AM
I find it deeply insulting that you should put that down to "wise men of Mudcat" rater than those who put together those reports
Your mate does that constantly - I'm disappointed that you do
Maybe you should have taken a longer spoon to that particular dinner party
"He who sups with the devil should take a long spoon ..."
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Oct 19 - 10:51 AM

Do we really need to descend to insults. Jim has offered his opinion that its all down to Brexit. He thinks it stupid to deny, or even question his beliefs.

Okay - according to the wise men of mudcat - we're stupid.
If he thinks you're stupid though - he's hardly likely to be wounded by your retaliatory insults.. Its just a distraction from sensible discussion.

Why do you think Cooks went bust Iains? Do you have anything - any personal testimony to contribute?


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Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Iains
Date: 01 Oct 19 - 06:27 AM

This stupid denial of the effects and possibly effects of Brexit is typical of the crass lemmingism that has driven this massive act of self-harm from day one
Another spiffing offering from neddy seagoon!


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Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Oct 19 - 12:42 AM

I suppose the surprising thing is that TC lasted as long as it did.

Its a company, I've never used. I've always associated it with Phileas Fogg and Hercule Poirot. A sort of blue chip company. I think I've looked in their brochures and thought - well I work too hard for my money to pay what rich folks do. I always looked for cheaper options. Ceefax pages used to have the best deals, but that's not fashionable nowadays.

When ballsy little companies like Intersun have gone to the wall, its obviously a competitive business. Although they did used to overbook. We went on one of their mystery type holidays. The hotel was really shit somewhere in Majorca with rats running round. The place was filled with people who had paid to go to a really posh hotel. The Yellowcoat woman just sat at a table while people screamed at her for an hour - then she buggered off - but she kept it up bravely every day.

Companies like Trivago and Iglu whose computers search for you the cheapest deal have looked to me the best value for money for the last couple of years.

I'd be sorry if Thomson went. They used to do long holidays in Torremolinos on January that we used to take advantage of, after flogging myself to death through November and December christmas gigs. From the early 80's through to about ten years back - I had two disabled people dependent on me - so somehow those sort of holidays went by the way.

I suppose its abit like all those empty first class carriages you see on trains. TC was just a concept like Dalton's atomic theory, not of this age.


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Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Sep 19 - 05:21 AM

This stupid denial of the effects and possibly effects of Brexit is typical of the crass lemmingism that has driven this massive act of self-harm from day one
Chew on this one - there are now (20th August) more than British 300 firms in talks with the Netherlands Foreign Investments Agency with a view to moving their operations to Holland
FAKE NEWS - NO DOUBT

Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Mr Red
Date: 30 Sep 19 - 03:32 AM

So............

Run this past me again ............

A tour operator goes tits up, and this triggers a possibility of the return of capital punishment. And I didn't see the join.

Is this the buttermoth effect?


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Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Sep 19 - 11:10 AM

"Horses Moth" would be an interesting band name.
Stop being flighty - you should know what happens to moths and flames !!!!
A REMINDER of THINGS PAST
NOT JUST TOMMY the CHEF of course
Last posting to nobody in particular
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Iains
Date: 28 Sep 19 - 11:01 AM

Never seen a horses moth. Has anyone else?

Let us consider the real reason- a failed business model. If it   was Brexit causing Monarch's bankruptcy why are other similar airlines still solvent? Gable is simply posturing and grandstanding.For a longstanding oilcompany economist he should know better.
. Monarch's problems can be summed up very succinctly: Falling revenues and rising costs, says Blair Nimmo of the airline's administrator, KPMG.
Gerald Khoo, an analyst with investment bank Liberum, said Monarch was "widely considered to be financially doomed" for many years, according to the Financial Times.
Speculation that the 50-year-old company was close to collapse first surfaced in September last year(2016)but the airline strongly denied it was in trouble at the time. Monarch received a funding injection from private equity business Greybull Capital shortly after. It later emerged that Monarch lost £291 million in the year to October 2016.

Was terrorism a major factor?. One of its most important markets was the Red Sea, but all travel to Sharm el-Sheikh, a year-round sun destination, was stopped after the 2015 bombing of a Russian Metrojet airliner. Monarch also had to stop operating services to Tunisia after the shootings at Sousse in 2015.
Monarch’s collapse follows the failure of Air Berlin and Alitalia, so will we see more airlines go bust?

The three carriers most likely to fail have now done so. But in general, industry observers have warned of too much capacity in the market: good news for passengers in the short term with lower fares, even for summer holiday flights, but unsustainable for many businesses. The pressure on airlines eased while the price of oil was low, but others may yet struggle.


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Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Jeri
Date: 28 Sep 19 - 10:50 AM

"Horses Moth" would be an interesting band name.


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Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Sep 19 - 10:39 AM

Horses Moth confession
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/monarch-collapse-brexit-vince-cable-blames-government-eu-uk-latest-a7978951.html


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Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Iains
Date: 28 Sep 19 - 10:13 AM

In August 1974, Court Line collapsed, taking down Clarksons with at least £7m (£60 million today)owing to 100,000 holidaymakers and possibly twice as much.
In Sep 2008 XL Leisure Group went into administration in the early hours of Friday with debts of £143 million, leaving 85,000 tourists stranded abroad and another 200,000 holidays written off.
In Oct 2017 Monarch collapsed leaving 110,000 holidaymakers stranded in 11 countries.

Are you going to blame those failures on Brexit as well?


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Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Sep 19 - 05:28 AM

Don't believe in lesser spirits Al - against my principles
It's failure to respond with anything but abuse that causes these problems - I prefer argument
If you wish to close this thread you're going the right way about it; we're skating on thin ice by discussing something that has nothing to do with Thomas Cook anyway
If you're not going to argue politely, let's leaver it there please
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Sep 19 - 04:26 AM

Jim we might as well have it out.

You may be able to subdue lesser spirits into believing they have no place on mudcat through dreading your ire - or promote cringing syco phants. But in my book relentless disagreeability buys you nothing.

I have as much right to my view of folk music and any bloody thing else from Brexit to bananas, as you - and you have no god given right to be so bloody snotty - seven days a week - 24 hours a day.

umper umper...


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Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Iains
Date: 27 Sep 19 - 09:00 AM

I do get tired of the EU being dealt with as a single-interest entity
Britain is acting on behalf of itself alone and damaging other countries - particularly Ireland, in doing so
The EU is a gathering of 28 countries and speaking on behalf of 28 different situations


At the core of the EU are the 28 Member States that belong to the EU, and their citizens. The unique feature of the EU is that, although the Member States all remain sovereign and independent states, they have decided to pool some of their ‘sovereignty’ in areas where it makes sense to work together.(European Commission)

Not quite how verhoftwat descibes it. He wants a 4th Reich


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Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Sep 19 - 08:30 AM

"I don’t believe Al has expressed support for the death penalty in respect of the Jamie Bulger killers."
If that's the case, which it appears to be, I apologies Al - but he same goes for the length of the sentence I'm afraid
I've spent a great deal of time arguing with people, including those from Liverpool and on this forum, who still wish to see them hang - it's obviously got to me
AS far as the Euro Courts go - yes - as far as I see, there have been no problems with their wor so far so it should never have been raised here
I do get tired of the EU being dealt with as a single-interest entity
Britain is acting on behalf of itself alone and damaging other countries - particularly Ireland, in doing so
The EU is a gathering of 28 countries and speaking on behalf of 28 different situations
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Sep 19 - 07:52 AM

Jim, unless I’m missing something here, I don’t believe Al has expressed support for the death penalty in respect of the Jamie Bulger killers. But he is complaining that their sentences weren’t long enough, and that they weren’t served in prison.

I’m not expressing an opinion about the Bulger killers’ treatment here, just trying to clarify what Al’s saying, so far as I understand it.


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Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Sep 19 - 07:34 AM

""Sentences are passed by juries at trials nor bt self appointed experts""
You are right- of course
My mistake - apologies to all
To my knowledge, no expert has called for these people to be executed or be kept incarcerated indefinitely
The "self appointed" ones are the ones wha are making such demands
Demands such as these have far more to do with revenge than justice
My family members still live in the area where these events took place - had I made such demands I would be as wrong as those who do
That's not the kind of world I wish to live in
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 27 Sep 19 - 06:39 AM

(Sorry BWM, I'd not seen your post when I made mine)


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Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 27 Sep 19 - 06:35 AM

"Sentences are passed by juries at trials nor bt self appointed experts"

And I thought sentences were passed by the judges following guilty verdict by the juries…

I believe that judges can and do consider expert opinions such as psychiatry reports before passing sentence?

Coming back to the James Bulger case. I believe his killers were sentenced to be detained at her Majesty’s pleasure and that it was only the minimum term they must serve that changed?

I would have thought that, in deciding the pair were no longer a danger to the public and were fit for release, the parole board would also have had exert reports drawn up and considered?


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Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Sep 19 - 06:31 AM

”Sentences are passed by juries at trials nor bt self appointed experts”

On a point of order Jim, sentences are not ‘passed by juries’ in the U.K. legal system, they are passed by judges. The question of guilt or innocence is decided by juries but, thank Dog, they have no say in the sentences handed out to those they find guilty.


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Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Sep 19 - 06:11 AM

" the opinions of experts about the level of danger to the public should be listened to "
Sentences are passed by juries at trials nor bt self appointed experts
I've known you to denigrate experts and quotes fairly recently - you seem to want to pick and choose them as well as override British laws
These are your own views Al - stop hiding behind the "experts" who back them up
Sorry
Finished here - we have nothing to say to each other I'm sad to say
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Sep 19 - 05:16 AM

no. taken my logic. the opinions of experts about the level of danger to the public should be listened to - rather than prosecution/defence lawyers playing cowboys and indians.

when it comes people who are deranged enough to want to harm others for pyschopathic fun - the combatative Rumpole versus the baddies philosophy causes problems.

my senseof humour is my problem. You sneer at my tea and crumpets, and you'll have to accept my badinage chewing on your potato cakes.


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Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Sep 19 - 04:13 AM

"Bollocks. I said the buggers needed to to be pumished. I said the public needed protection."
Was lethal injection a another of your jokes than Al
All any civilised society should be allowed to do is to try and punish any criminal
The criminals were punished by lw - that is enough
Taken your logic - all bcriminals should be locked up forever in case they do it again
Are you serious Al
Your snide reference of where I live puts you at the lower rungs of my estimation - don't suppose that bothers you any more than yours bothers me
Please stop demanding the right to place yourself above the law - we've got a Prime Minister who does that
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Sep 19 - 03:54 AM

Private Fraser of Mudcat....we're doooomed I tell ye!
Well not me, co i live in Ireland.


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Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Sep 19 - 03:53 AM

You may oppose Capital Punishment in words, but you've put a lot of effort in support of putting a child to death here


Bollocks. I said the buggers needed to to be pumished. I said the public needed protection.

Your finger pointing at anyone who doesn't agree with you on every aspect is like a descant note to every posting.
Private Fraser of Mudcat....we're doooomed I ye!


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Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Sep 19 - 02:40 AM

And describing everything that is based on humanitarianism and common decency as "left wing" pisses me off Al
Your arguments for the State killing of sa child, as you have here has nothing to do with politics - just on our responsibility to one another as human being
The left may have made many mistakes in it's desire for equality of opportunity for all, but it was delibrat worked out and documented right wing philosophy and deliberate intention that herded around ten million human beings into extermination chambers 70 years ago and it was the right wing business worldwho provided the finances for them to do so
That is the only political issue to consider in these arguments

You may oppose Capital Punishment in words, but you've put a lot of effort in support of putting a child to death here

There's a wonderful little book (195 pages) litle thumbnail sketch of capital punishiment by the totally unknown John Dean Potter, entitled, 'The Fatal Gallows Tree' - if it were up to me I would make it compulsory reading on every education curriculum in Britain as a reminder of Britain's recent barbaric past
It finishes with this magificent description from the New Statesman, of Britain's Great and Good's last ditch attempt to keep caplital punshment of the stature books

From the hills and forests of darkest Britain they came : the halt, the lame, the deaf, the obscure, the senile and the forgotten —the hereditary peers of England united in their determination to use their medieval powers to retain a medieval institution.
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Sep 19 - 11:04 PM

never mind....we'll be back. Vera Lynn's gig by rights.


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Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Sep 19 - 07:07 PM

This is the largest repatriation of UK citizens since Dunkirk.


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Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Sep 19 - 06:50 PM

as a member of amnesty international I have campaigned against capital punishment most of my life. I have written many songs on the subject.

Heres one i wrote about Herbert leonard Mills. Herbert was an 18 year old Nottingham lad, the same year as derek Bentley.. Herbert wasn't a great cause celebre like Ellis or Derek or Podola, but he never deserved what happened to him.


https://soundcloud.com/denise_whittle/the-ballad-of-herbert-leonard-mills


It has nothing to do with Brexit. the knee jerk opposition to anything that isn't left wing hip pisses me off. i think it ill suits countries whose dispensers of justicewere the GRU and the Stasi to lecture us on jurisprudence.

Mind you one suspects there was a time when even those monsters had the blessing of enlightened British left wingers.


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Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Sep 19 - 06:57 AM

"What if a relation of yours had been a victim - would you be feeling so Euro courts friendly?"

Input of that kind is an attempt to trump objectivity and has no place in rational discussion (if we can ever manage that...).


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Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 26 Sep 19 - 06:28 AM

"well similarly I have never met a remainer who will comment on the European court of Human Rights releasing jamie bulger's killers after eight years in children homes - no time spent in a penal institution - despite Michael howard being briefed that the only thing they were interested in was sex and violence and increasing the sentence to fifteen years."

Going by the Wikipedia article

The fifteen year term set by Howard seems to have been overturned by the House of Lords before any appeals to the European Court of Human Rights:
Lord Donaldson criticised Howard's intervention, describing the increased tariff as "institutionalised vengeance ... [by] a politician playing to the gallery." The increased minimum term was overturned in 1997 by the House of Lords that ruled it "unlawful" for the Home Secretary to decide on minimum sentences for young offenders.

The only effect the appeals to the to the European Court of Human Rights seems to have had on their sentence was to trigger a review in the UK:
The European Court case led to the new Lord Chief Justice, Lord Woolf, reviewing the minimum sentence. In October 2000, he recommended the tariff be reduced from ten to eight years, adding that young offender institutions were a "corrosive atmosphere" for the juveniles.

The decision to release them seems to have been made by the Home Secretary following a recommendation by the parole board:
In June 2001, after a six-month review, the parole board ruled the boys were no longer a threat to public safety and could be released as their minimum tariff had expired in February of that year. The Home Secretary David Blunkett approved the decision, and they were released a few weeks later on lifelong licence after serving eight years.


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Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Mr Red
Date: 26 Sep 19 - 05:16 AM

Blaming Brexit is a cop out.

I predicted that Brexshit would be blamed for all sorts of price rises. Real and imaginary. I should have included failure too. When I said in part it was a reasoned, measured caveat. And it will always be true.

But, if you don't believe that a sudden major change (as yet to be clearly defined) is not going to cost industry & commerce a lot of money just in hedging the numerous bets, then you should be living in Cloud Cook Who Land. I can recommend an equally clouded company to take you there............

Just ask me!


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Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Iains
Date: 26 Sep 19 - 04:40 AM

"The immediate future of Condor, the German airline and subsidiary of the now insolvent Thomas Cook travel agency, was secured on Tuesday following the state's assurances of a €380 million ($420 million) loan.

The bridging loan from the German government and the state of Hesse, where the firm is based, was confirmed by the airline.

"This step, under the current situation, is the best for our clients, our business partners and for us. This way, we can be fully independent from the Thomas Cook Group plc and gain more security for our future," a Condor statement read.

The European Commission must now approve the loan before the money can be transferred.

German Economy Minister Peter Altmaier also confirmed that the government had approved the deal


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Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Sep 19 - 04:09 AM

"Bulger's killers ( please note plural) abducted, sexually assaulted, and murdered a two year old."
I knw, probably better than you, exactly what happened as it took place not far from my home
What gives you the right to vault the law and demand the judicial murder of something he did when he ws little more than a child - who do you think you are, Boris Johnson ?
Capital punishment was deemed barbaric half a century ago and abolished - apparently they forgot to tell some people
Would you like to see some photographs of the victims of napalm, or the three generations deformities of the A bomb
"What if a relation of yours had been a victim "
Then I'd have been barred from sitting on the jury (which is as it should be)
Judicial murder is still murder Al
Welcome to what enlightenment there is of the 21st century
Are you serious !!!
You want barbarity ?
Did you know that Ruth Ellis, the last women to be hanged, had to wear canvas knickers at her execution because the insides of the woman before her fell out of her fanny as the rope tightened
THin of that over your tea and crumpets
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Acorn4
Date: 26 Sep 19 - 03:51 AM

Thomas Cook's main motive in going into the travel business was to assist his work with the Temperance Movement and his first excursion from Leicester to Loughborough in the early 1840s was to a temperance rally.

He gradually expanded his business on the Victorian values of thrift and hard work.

I think he might have stirred in his grave a bit when a pub bearing his name was opened in Leicester, but nothing to compare to the tremors coming out of Welford Road cemetery when he learned on the bonuses paid to TC bosses.


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Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Sep 19 - 03:49 AM

Bulger's killers ( please note plural) abducted, sexually assaulted, and murdered a two year old.

the English legal system dealt with them. The European courts ripped the judgement up, and set themfree.

I've held no brief for the English legal system - since they convened a court in less than 24 hours to sequester NUM funds. And this week in particular it has revealed once again its class loyalties.

But at least - they are in our country and we can reform them if we put our minds to it. the european courts are not within our control.

Darren Venables since his release has been prosecuted for acts of violence and downloading kiddy porn. According to the lawyer who represented them, Vennables was the stupid one of the partnership.

What if a relation of yours had been a victim - would you be feeling so Euro courts friendly?


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Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Sep 19 - 03:36 PM

I’ve never heard a Remainer make death-threats against Leavers, telling them they are ‘Traitors who should be arrested, marched out, and shot for treason’, or “We know who you are and where you live, and you’ll be one of the first we’ll be paying a visit when this is all over”, the way Leavers have frequently told Remainers (including me, on at least half a dozen occasions).

If I had a choice between being called a racist or having death-threats made against me, I’d settle for ‘racist’ every time.

The worst, vilest abuse by a long way has come from your Leaver cronies, check out the disgraceful, systematic abuse from our arch-Brexiteer troll on this forum. Shameful behaviour.

And passive/aggressive victim-playing by a Brexiteer is insulting too. Think on.


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Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Sep 19 - 03:30 PM

"I have never met a remainer who will comment on the European court of Human Rights releasing jamie bulger's killers after eight years in children homes"
What's to comment on
Bulget's killer was tried by the law and punished
Stringing people up went out with Tombstone and Wyatt Earp
Personally, I might stretch a point if it was for leaders who have decimated generations for profit - and those who stood nby silently as they did it
But I would never extend that to crimes committed by children - however bad they were
I'm a humanitarian (with a small e) Al - I can't really mae out what you are
If you believe I "snarl racist" unfairly feel free to correct me
The fats of the matter nare glaringly apparent - ask those affected by the 42% rise in hate crimes since Brexit entered our lives (or do you believe someone made them up)
Maby widower Mr Cox might put us both straight
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Sep 19 - 02:59 PM

well similarly I have never met a remainer who will comment on the European court of Human Rights releasing jamie bulger's killers after eight years in children homes - no time spent in a penal institution - despite Michael howard being briefed that the only thing they were interested in was sex and violence and increasing the sentence to fifteen years.

I've never heard anyone mentioning the disaster that has led to mike Ashley hoovering up all sorts of grants to solve bolsover's unemployment crisis after shutting down the mines and hosiery trade - and then recruiting from outside the england for starvation wages.

All i hear i hear is a snarl of defiance and shit slinging, abuse - calling everyone a racist - keeping out ddecent hardworking folk. Because we've presumably our citizens turned into some sort of lumpen proletariat.

As long as we have the euro monster eating our entrails, people will not be happy. If they turn on us - as seems to be their mindset - so be it. they've done it before.


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Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: OldPossum
Date: 25 Sep 19 - 01:57 PM

The bad news just keep coming: Thomas Cook GmbH, the German subsidiary of Thomas Cook, has now filed for bankruptcy. Welt Online report here (in German). Thomas Cook's Polish division Neckermann Polska has been declared insolvent, according to Sky News.


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Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Rain Dog
Date: 25 Sep 19 - 12:31 PM

At the risk of repeating myself, I don't believe that Brexit had a major part in the downfall of Thomas Cook.

This thread was titled Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019. It is yourself that is trying to tie it in to Brexit.

Does it worry me that you do that? Not really, seems par for the course.

Calling people lemmings just because they disagree with you, what is that about?

I voted remain. I am also sorry to see all those people lose their job.


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Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Sep 19 - 12:07 PM

Can I just make my position clear here
Despite th fact that th most memorable holiday we have ever spent was a two-week trip on the Nile on one of TC's (small) boats, I hold no brief for the firm and certainly the way they and others obscenely overpay their executives
What worries me is, when Brexit sets sending Britain tumbling like Babylon, you Brexiteers will defend this crass decision wiv - "Nuffin' to do wiv us Guv- must have been the incompetent and overpaid management or the lazy workers" - or something else entirely - anything other than those who voted to and drive Britain over this now clearly visible cliff
All the danger signs of Brexit are glaringly obvious - I have yet to meet a Brexiteer prepared even to discuss them - bver mind acknowledge the dangers
Lemmingist self-harm at its worst
Jim


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