BS Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019

Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Sep 19 - 07:34 AM

""Sentences are passed by juries at trials nor bt self appointed experts""
You are right- of course
My mistake - apologies to all
To my knowledge, no expert has called for these people to be executed or be kept incarcerated indefinitely
The "self appointed" ones are the ones wha are making such demands
Demands such as these have far more to do with revenge than justice
My family members still live in the area where these events took place - had I made such demands I would be as wrong as those who do
That's not the kind of world I wish to live in
Jim

Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Sep 19 - 07:52 AM

Jim, unless I’m missing something here, I don’t believe Al has expressed support for the death penalty in respect of the Jamie Bulger killers. But he is complaining that their sentences weren’t long enough, and that they weren’t served in prison.

I’m not expressing an opinion about the Bulger killers’ treatment here, just trying to clarify what Al’s saying, so far as I understand it.

Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Sep 19 - 08:30 AM

"I don’t believe Al has expressed support for the death penalty in respect of the Jamie Bulger killers."
If that's the case, which it appears to be, I apologies Al - but he same goes for the length of the sentence I'm afraid
I've spent a great deal of time arguing with people, including those from Liverpool and on this forum, who still wish to see them hang - it's obviously got to me
AS far as the Euro Courts go - yes - as far as I see, there have been no problems with their wor so far so it should never have been raised here
I do get tired of the EU being dealt with as a single-interest entity
Britain is acting on behalf of itself alone and damaging other countries - particularly Ireland, in doing so
The EU is a gathering of 28 countries and speaking on behalf of 28 different situations
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Iains
Date: 27 Sep 19 - 09:00 AM

I do get tired of the EU being dealt with as a single-interest entity
Britain is acting on behalf of itself alone and damaging other countries - particularly Ireland, in doing so
The EU is a gathering of 28 countries and speaking on behalf of 28 different situations

At the core of the EU are the 28 Member States that belong to the EU, and their citizens. The unique feature of the EU is that, although the Member States all remain sovereign and independent states, they have decided to pool some of their ‘sovereignty’ in areas where it makes sense to work together.(European Commission)

Not quite how verhoftwat descibes it. He wants a 4th Reich

Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Sep 19 - 04:26 AM

Jim we might as well have it out.

You may be able to subdue lesser spirits into believing they have no place on mudcat through dreading your ire - or promote cringing syco phants. But in my book relentless disagreeability buys you nothing.

I have as much right to my view of folk music and any bloody thing else from Brexit to bananas, as you - and you have no god given right to be so bloody snotty - seven days a week - 24 hours a day.

umper umper...

Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Sep 19 - 05:28 AM

Don't believe in lesser spirits Al - against my principles
It's failure to respond with anything but abuse that causes these problems - I prefer argument
If you wish to close this thread you're going the right way about it; we're skating on thin ice by discussing something that has nothing to do with Thomas Cook anyway
If you're not going to argue politely, let's leaver it there please
Jim

Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Iains
Date: 28 Sep 19 - 10:13 AM

In August 1974, Court Line collapsed, taking down Clarksons with at least £7m (£60 million today)owing to 100,000 holidaymakers and possibly twice as much.
In Sep 2008 XL Leisure Group went into administration in the early hours of Friday with debts of £143 million, leaving 85,000 tourists stranded abroad and another 200,000 holidays written off.
In Oct 2017 Monarch collapsed leaving 110,000 holidaymakers stranded in 11 countries.

Are you going to blame those failures on Brexit as well?

Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Sep 19 - 10:39 AM

Horses Moth confession
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/monarch-collapse-brexit-vince-cable-blames-government-eu-uk-latest-a7978951.html

Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Jeri
Date: 28 Sep 19 - 10:50 AM

"Horses Moth" would be an interesting band name.

Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Iains
Date: 28 Sep 19 - 11:01 AM

Never seen a horses moth. Has anyone else?

Let us consider the real reason- a failed business model. If it   was Brexit causing Monarch's bankruptcy why are other similar airlines still solvent? Gable is simply posturing and grandstanding.For a longstanding oilcompany economist he should know better.
. Monarch's problems can be summed up very succinctly: Falling revenues and rising costs, says Blair Nimmo of the airline's administrator, KPMG.
Gerald Khoo, an analyst with investment bank Liberum, said Monarch was "widely considered to be financially doomed" for many years, according to the Financial Times.
Speculation that the 50-year-old company was close to collapse first surfaced in September last year(2016)but the airline strongly denied it was in trouble at the time. Monarch received a funding injection from private equity business Greybull Capital shortly after. It later emerged that Monarch lost £291 million in the year to October 2016.

Was terrorism a major factor?. One of its most important markets was the Red Sea, but all travel to Sharm el-Sheikh, a year-round sun destination, was stopped after the 2015 bombing of a Russian Metrojet airliner. Monarch also had to stop operating services to Tunisia after the shootings at Sousse in 2015.
Monarch’s collapse follows the failure of Air Berlin and Alitalia, so will we see more airlines go bust?

The three carriers most likely to fail have now done so. But in general, industry observers have warned of too much capacity in the market: good news for passengers in the short term with lower fares, even for summer holiday flights, but unsustainable for many businesses. The pressure on airlines eased while the price of oil was low, but others may yet struggle.

Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Sep 19 - 11:10 AM

"Horses Moth" would be an interesting band name.
Stop being flighty - you should know what happens to moths and flames !!!!
A REMINDER of THINGS PAST
NOT JUST TOMMY the CHEF of course
Last posting to nobody in particular
Jim

Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Mr Red
Date: 30 Sep 19 - 03:32 AM

So............

Run this past me again ............

A tour operator goes tits up, and this triggers a possibility of the return of capital punishment. And I didn't see the join.

Is this the buttermoth effect?

Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Sep 19 - 05:21 AM

This stupid denial of the effects and possibly effects of Brexit is typical of the crass lemmingism that has driven this massive act of self-harm from day one
Chew on this one - there are now (20th August) more than British 300 firms in talks with the Netherlands Foreign Investments Agency with a view to moving their operations to Holland
FAKE NEWS - NO DOUBT

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Oct 19 - 12:42 AM

I suppose the surprising thing is that TC lasted as long as it did.

Its a company, I've never used. I've always associated it with Phileas Fogg and Hercule Poirot. A sort of blue chip company. I think I've looked in their brochures and thought - well I work too hard for my money to pay what rich folks do. I always looked for cheaper options. Ceefax pages used to have the best deals, but that's not fashionable nowadays.

When ballsy little companies like Intersun have gone to the wall, its obviously a competitive business. Although they did used to overbook. We went on one of their mystery type holidays. The hotel was really shit somewhere in Majorca with rats running round. The place was filled with people who had paid to go to a really posh hotel. The Yellowcoat woman just sat at a table while people screamed at her for an hour - then she buggered off - but she kept it up bravely every day.

Companies like Trivago and Iglu whose computers search for you the cheapest deal have looked to me the best value for money for the last couple of years.

I'd be sorry if Thomson went. They used to do long holidays in Torremolinos on January that we used to take advantage of, after flogging myself to death through November and December christmas gigs. From the early 80's through to about ten years back - I had two disabled people dependent on me - so somehow those sort of holidays went by the way.

I suppose its abit like all those empty first class carriages you see on trains. TC was just a concept like Dalton's atomic theory, not of this age.

Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Iains
Date: 01 Oct 19 - 06:27 AM

This stupid denial of the effects and possibly effects of Brexit is typical of the crass lemmingism that has driven this massive act of self-harm from day one
Another spiffing offering from neddy seagoon!

Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Oct 19 - 10:51 AM

Do we really need to descend to insults. Jim has offered his opinion that its all down to Brexit. He thinks it stupid to deny, or even question his beliefs.

Okay - according to the wise men of mudcat - we're stupid.
If he thinks you're stupid though - he's hardly likely to be wounded by your retaliatory insults.. Its just a distraction from sensible discussion.

Why do you think Cooks went bust Iains? Do you have anything - any personal testimony to contribute?

Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Oct 19 - 11:02 AM

"Do we really need to descend to insults. Jim"
Ask yourself that one Al - you have been doing that for quite a while now
Or you counf ask your new friend who has never risen above insulting peope who know far more than he ever wll since he arrived on this forum
This has nothing to do with "wise men of Mudcat" - the links to the surveys of what damage Brexit is doing to British industry - including Thomas Cook have been put up a dozen times - and ignored
Like this one - 30 Sep 19 - 05:21 AM
I find it deeply insulting that you should put that down to "wise men of Mudcat" rater than those who put together those reports
Your mate does that constantly - I'm disappointed that you do
Maybe you should have taken a longer spoon to that particular dinner party
"He who sups with the devil should take a long spoon ..."
Jim

Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Oct 19 - 11:34 AM

Incidentally Al
I don't know if you earn you living at your music ot hether you have a day job, but if the former is the case, THIS WOULD WORRY ME CONSIDERABLY
I don't know too much about you, but the part of Britain I'm from and the kind of people I grew up with are going to be hit for a six when Brexit goes bad - as it already has in my part of the world, with job losses and business closures
Even the hard-done--by fishing industry is now having a change of heart about leaving
The working people the Tories claim to be working on behalf of (when did they ever do that?) are going to be hit from all sides from jobs and prices to essential medical supplies - that comes directly from the Government's own survey
I wa spealking to my sister in the South of England yesterday - her son - my nephew has a lucrative jon in what was Westland until they panicked and changed it and moved to Europe to avoid Brexit
I pointed out that he stands to lose his job because of travel restrictions to Italy - she hadn't thought about it
The way employment works in Britain nowadays, he'll be lucky if he can get a job stacking shelves at Morrison's
The Brexit referendum awas about as democratic as leading a blindfolded man into a dark room and asking him to pur a cross on a piece of blank paper
The "People's Will" my arse
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Oct 19 - 12:10 PM

well this is it - the practical truth and the bullshit news.

yes I was a jobbing musician (allegedly) most of my life.
I won't weary you with the facts, but being a musician is very much like anything else. Supply and demand. Nobs and workers. Europe and unacknowledged protectionism.

For your information , I had records out in Germany, Italy, Holland. Toured Spain. Offered tours in the gulf, Germany, Spain. And the Musician's Union wouldn't have pissed on me if I was on fire.

Sorry if I insulted you. I have always respected you, but on this subject of Brexit, I find myself in disagreement with you. And this descant pipe that Brexit is at the seat of every problem from blocked toilets to Boris Johnson is wearisome, not to mention screwing up every thread below the line.

Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Oct 19 - 12:34 PM

Not the point of what it was like Al
The point is that it will be made near impossible for those wishing to tour after Brexit
I really don't mind being insulted Al - It sometimes disappoints me who does so when I happen to like and respect them otherwise
It would worry me if certain individuals didn't (no names) - I'd have to check where I was going wrong
I raised it here when you accused me of doing what you wee doing yourself - otherwis - carry on
We're supposed to be here to swap ideas and discuss opinions (that's why I am anyway)If what I put up is bullshit - why
Jim

Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Iains
Date: 01 Oct 19 - 02:14 PM

Big Al I gave my reasons as those forwarded by experts giving various reasons as to why the company went bust. It was a failed business model that had not reacted to a changing market. Bringing Brexit back to the table repeatedly as a reason for Thomas Cook going bust when industry experts have discounted it gets boring. I do not live in a goldfish tank and I have sufficient faculties that everytime I see something repeated it is not a brand new experience, it is simply repetition and not even disguised. It is no longer a meaningful discussion it is simply constant repetition of the remainer mantra of blame everything on Brexit. I would concede that uncertainty may have helped tip the company over the edge but realistically that is not brexit, that is the delaying tactics adopted by remainers that have prolonged the uncertainty for over three years.

Subject: RE: BS-Obit: Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Oct 19 - 02:51 PM

Well this thread is surely not the place,but surely you must have noticed there are two classes of humanity - them and us .

You really think The Beatles and all those groups in Hamburg were denied access co we weren't in the EEC. You think that the tourists in Spain are going to be contented with Manuel and Juan singing Viva Espana as they drink themselves into insnsibility. These little bars will always get the acts that please their customers, and they will always pay as little as possible!

Its supply and demand. The MU, the Arts Council, BBC are all on planet posh.

THe tax situation regarding record royalties couldn't really be more labyrinthine outside than it is inside the EEC. Because I was unable to tour because of ny domestic situation, I did apply to the German authorities to pay my tax in England. It turned out I was the only persom who had ever applied for the form - which took them six months to locate,

The Spanish are a law unto themselves. One week (it made the front page of THe Stage). They turned round every English act who was heading downcoast. I was headed out next week - tell them you're playing for a private party, you Dad's wedding - the agent advised. No English acts are permitted to play on the front at Benidorm. That's reserved for Spanish acts. The English acts work the bars in side streets, or on a street called The Strip.

Either way, I know enough about the Spaniards to know they they won't give a shit what Boris or Brussels decide - they will do their own thing. Which is something I rather respect them for. Would that our own government had the same cavalier attitude to EU regulations - it might be worth remaining.

Tell me, I noticed that every street corner in St Petersburg has an Irish bar - are there many Irish blokes over there gigging? I never considered Russia as a possible source of revenue.

Subject: RE: BS Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Oct 19 - 08:07 PM

"Well this thread is surely not the place,"
Why ?
I'm not intersted why the BBC was denied access - out of my interest and experience zone
I'm more concerned with the Young amateur and semi pro players who are now enjoying the opportunity to play in Europe - especially the thousands of youngsters coming to the music for the first time
All the signs are that that will become harder if things continue as they are
I travelled the world on my thumb in my twenties - I remember the difficulties with visas and having to plan carefully in advance - wouldn't wish that on kids who would like to try that now

Moaning about the Spaniards doesn't mean squat - Britain has never been happy in any organisation they can't control and prove their imagined superiority - we have never been joiners and we are no longer capable of being controllers - especially now we have become the laughing stock of the world
We've fucked it up for our kids and it's up to us to put it right rather than moan "it's all their fault sir"
We owe it to them to at least try
Brexit isn't "what might happen" any more - it's happening every time another industry goes belly-up

I was in St Petersburg when it was Leningrad - I wouldn't go there now if I was tied to the back of a bus and dragged - too dangerous, to greed-orientated and now robbed of the hope I saw when I was there
As far as Irish music goes - it's now possible to find it anywhere in Europe
We climed the hish steet going tint Taormina in Sicily (above the clouds) and were greeted by jigs and reel coming our of the local tavern
The Irish will continue to make sure that continues -you won't be able to say the same with the unnecessary boarders they are erecting
Stupid and self-defeating
Jim

Subject: RE: BS Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Oct 19 - 09:37 PM

I know that Irish musicians worked behind the Iron Curtain, because I knew a lot who worked in East Germany. I was offered a gig in Leipzig.

However I was surprised to see all the Irish bars in Russia, and I wondered if there were Irish musicians inside. I found Russia very oppressive. The tour guide had strange ideas about English society, and she was amazed at my boldness in marchig into a big hotel to use the bog.

I am not sure that is allowed, she said.
I think the security men on the door caught a glimpse of the desperation in mt eyes.

Every guitarist loves Spain. And they like us - its their national instrument. Ordinary pub audience are frequently knowledgeable.

Subject: RE: BS Thomas Cook in Liquidation 22 Sep 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Oct 19 - 03:05 AM

I travelled Eastern Europe without a Guide - guides in all countries will always show your the commercially lucrative and beneficial face
Far from them being oppressive, I found the opposite - the people we met were knowledgeable and articulate about what was happening in their countries
A big wake-up call for me was when we hitched over the border of Czechoslovakia on the morning the Russians opened it up after the invasion andwere taken up by demonstrating students who found us accommodation and fed and entertained us while we were there
They were not trying to end communism but to get it to clean up its act - 'The Velvet Revolution'
We used to go up to the park in Prague with them to argue with the young Russian soldiers billeted there - telling them they were wrong to be behaving as they did to their fellow communists
One of the additional oddities was the young North Viernamese soldier who joined us, - he looked as if he should be at school - he was on leave there from fighting the Yanks back home - fascinating days

I have always wanted to revisit Prague, and was intending to go until I heard from a workmate how he was crossing Wenceslas Square when he was accosted by a begging child who asked him for money and indicated repayment by shoving her hand in his pocket and began fondling his balls
I'd rather keep my memories of war-scarred 'enslaved' Prague before it was 'freed' - thanks all the same
I have yet to get any 'free us from communism' advocates to admit that these countries are now far less free and far more dangerous than they were back them

I am left with the impression that half decent musicians with half a foot in tradition would have no problems getting bookings in these countries
Old Eastern Europe tended to respect their own traditional music far more than we do in The West - you could still hear watered-down versions of it in the restaurants
John Faulkner and I once had a raging political argument in Buda Castle Restaurant where we had been taken to by a friend of MacColl's, Charlie Coutts and folklorist Lazlos Vargas
A gypsy fiddler who was entertaining us stopped the argument by leaning between us and playing his fiddle loudly
Vargas took us to meet an old lady who had given her songs to Bartok

Different now of course, but we heard traditional Rumanian and Hungarian buskers on O'Connell Street in Dublin - it's still around - worth finding out about
Jim