Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019 From: Dave the Gnome Date: 11 Oct 19 - 10:57 AM Oh - come on Dave Feel free to provide a link to me staying anything goes, Jim. Stop prevaricating - where would you send someone looking for fol;k songs ? It's difficult to see how I can have prevaricated over a question you have not asked before but, once again, please feel free to link where you have. Anyway, seeing as you ask now, I would send them to Skipton folk club on a Monday. Bacca pipes in Keighley on a Friday or the Topic in Bradford on a Thursday. I cannot say for other areas as I am out of touch. |
Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019 From: Howard Jones Date: 11 Oct 19 - 10:40 AM We've been over all this many times. The clubs in their heyday included a broad range of music, not all of it traditional or even in a traditional style, but it all seemed to rub along and was broadly acceptable to the audiences. I don't think it can be as simple as the other music driving out trad and trad-sounding songs, or we would still have a thriving club scene but with a different balance of music. However I think the open-mic movement stole our clothes - they saw how the folk club model provided an opportunity to perform in front of an audience, and adapted it to include a wider range of music than had been typical of folk clubs. Perhaps some of these were folk clubs which, deliberately or otherwise, broadened their base and haven't got around to changing how they describe themselves. The other feature I see is that the standards of performance now cover a far greater range. At the top, I see far more people capable of playing and singing to a far higher standard than was the case when I started in the 70s. It is understandable that audiences, accustomed to high standards in other genres, expect the same and don't want to be subjected to mediocre random floor singers. That inevitably leads to more controlled events without floor singers, and in concert rather than club conditions. At the other end of the scale, the philosophy that everyone should be allowed to sing has resulted in sessions with appallingly low standards where people who would never have been given a floor spot are encouraged to keep coming back. The needs of the performers take priority over those of the audience. It is hardly surprising that these tend to be shunned by both audiences and more accomplished performers and become remedial self-help groups of people singing badly to each other. I deplore both these directions, but I'm not sure how they can be reversed. |
Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019 From: Jim Carroll Date: 11 Oct 19 - 10:13 AM "But I have never suggested that anything goes, Jim" Oh - come on Dave You have kicked against a definition and demanded mine Your "healthy" revival descenede into pop song renditions at one time Stop prevaricating - where would you send someone looking for fol;k songs ? Jim |
Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019 From: Dave the Gnome Date: 11 Oct 19 - 10:08 AM But I have never suggested that anything goes, Jim. You are tilting at a straw man there. I also "have a loose definition that makes sure that people who turn up to hear folk songs will hear them or songs based on folk syles". I gave it to you earlier. Both yours and mine are subjective though. The only objective definition you quote is the 1954 one and, as you say, that is flawed. It is little wonder therefore that the layman is confused about what folk music is if a definition cannot be agreed by the aficionados. They may as well just listen to what Mark Radcliffe tells them. |
Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019 From: Jim Carroll Date: 11 Oct 19 - 09:30 AM I dug this out for the talk next week It explains how the old crowd differentiated between the different types of their song It's from the time Appalachian singer Jean Richie was recording songs from singers in Ireland in 1950 - a definition using recognition and comparison “I used the song Barbara Allen as a collecting tool because everybody knew it. When I would ask people to sing me some of their old songs they would sometimes sing ‘Does Your Mother Come from Ireland?’ or something about shamrocks. But if I asked if they knew Barbara Allen, immediately they knew exactly what kind of song I was talking about and they would bring out beautiful old things that matched mine, and were variants of the songs I knew in Kentucky. It was like coming home.” Jim |
Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019 From: Jim Carroll Date: 11 Oct 19 - 08:56 AM Sorry - didn't quite finish WHERE WOULD YOU SEND THEM? Answers on any sized postcard you need, but I doubt if anything much larger than a postage stamp would be needed Jim |
Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019 From: Jim Carroll Date: 11 Oct 19 - 08:52 AM "And yet a few posts earlier you insisted that a definition was required if we were to preserve and grow it." As a singer, I have a loose definition that makes sure that people who turn up to hear folk songs will hear them or songs based on folk syles - that was always the case with principled (as distinct from the minue few purist) clubs Someone who turns up to hear 'The Flying Cloud' is going to be a little pissed off to be given Jarvis Cocker-alike sounds if they have a modicum of taste (and vise versa, of course) My need for a tighter definition comes when I am writing or talking about the songs, especially as I am now interested in them as our social history carriers Nobody turns up to a classical music recital is going to be too happy if they are given jazz instead - why the **** shouldn't the same apply to a folk club - isn't it worthy of that level of integrity ? You no longer have the excuse that the 'anything-goes' approach works - the lubs ar bombing In my opinion, this is because nobody knows what they will hear anymore, and the standard of what they are given has steadily declined WE have a permanent definition and have had since '54 - it needs re-visiting, but it has worked for over a half century and nobody has come up with an alternative so far If someone asked me where they could find a substantial represtitive collectiion of Folk Song, I would send them to The Penguin Books, or the Singing Island, or Greig Duncan, or Kennedy's British Folk Song collection, or Sharp/Karpeles - or the many and varied collections that have been coming out for over 100 years Thare are as many articles, and analyses to satisfy anybody interested on any level |
Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019 From: Dave the Gnome Date: 11 Oct 19 - 07:07 AM I don't need a "definition" Dave And yet a few posts earlier you insisted that a definition was required if we were to preserve and grow it. Which is it be? Do we need a definition and, it so, which one do you agree with? I just had a Star Trek moment. It's folk, Jim, but not as we know it. :D |
Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019 From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge Date: 11 Oct 19 - 05:43 AM I `ad old Eric Tebble in my cab once. `e was raised in Deptford but moved out to Basildon and married Ethel Spelter, the last of the Essex women `ot dip galvanisers. She wrote that book, "Zinc or Swim" with all the songs she collected. Essential reading. I said, "Morning Eric. Long time, no see. `ere, I know you post to that Mudcat. There was a bit about Deptford in it. when you were a kid at school there did you `ave anybody to come and sing folk songs for you?" `e said, "Yes Jim. I do recall we `ad this geezer come along one time, a right charmer, `e was. `e `ad us all singing songs from "English Folk Songs for Schools". I`ve still got my copy." I said, " Did you find it educational?" `e said," I suppose so. But more for the `eadmaster." I said, "Go on then." `e said, "When they all came in the next morning they found `e `ad `alf-inched the pianner!" Whaddam I Like?? |
Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019 From: GUEST,akenaton Date: 11 Oct 19 - 05:42 AM All this navel gazing is tiresome, before the second revival proper, there was a revival of traditional jazz...I remember it well, and today in the US there is another revival of New Orleans style street music led by an amazing group of musicians called Tuba Skinny....positive and inclusive...I love them, especially the little "leader" Shay and the fantastic singer Erica Lewis. This is the folk music of Black America, full of life and sometimes pathos.....Heads UP...and give it a listen! TUBA SKINNY |
Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019 From: GUEST,Observer Date: 11 Oct 19 - 05:40 AM "Get Up And Bar The Door" - Thanks for the information on that Jim - It is one I sing as my "Christmas Song". |
Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019 From: Jim Carroll Date: 11 Oct 19 - 05:27 AM Thank you Jim, unless you cross-posted !! Jim Carroll |
Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019 From: GUEST,jim bainbridge Date: 11 Oct 19 - 05:16 AM that's an interesting point |
Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019 From: Jim Carroll Date: 11 Oct 19 - 03:42 AM Sorry ray - ised this "Oh has it ~ by whom?? By the people who sang them and acrried tem through the ages - that's who One of the great myths abot teditional singers is, because they sand all typse of song, they didn't differentiate between the different types - the songs are different and it is insulting to suggest that the singers were incapable of recognising those differences WE spent hours talking to England's last 'large repertoire' traditional singers about how he categorised his songs He sand all sorts but was adamant about which were folk and which weren't - he even attempted to analyse the difference musically using his Melodeon He would have been mortified to found some of "that other old stuff" had been given a Roud number to identify it as a folk song Blint Travelling singer, Mary Delaney, had a large repertoire of traditional songs which she referred to as 'My daddie's songs" - even though he probably knew lass than ten - she was referring to the type of song rather than its source She had many dozens of Country and Western songs which she refused to sing for us "You don't want them old things - I only know them 'caose they're the ones the lads ask for down in the pub" Non-literate Traveller, Mikeen McCarthy from Kerry divided his repertoire into three parts, the "street songs", he used for busking, "pub songs" which were sung in crowded pubs, often for pennies and "fireside songs" which were sund in the open air around a fireside to listeners who would give their full attention to what was being sung Three different types of song, three different styles of singing We got the same type of information from more-or-less every singer we talked to The only reason not to to define a folk song is to choose not to - that has become a convenience used by people who appear not to be satisfied with the folk repertoire any more and want to give themselves an excuse to sing something else at a folk club That is why the clubs are bombing at a rate of knots Jim |
Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019 From: Jim Carroll Date: 11 Oct 19 - 03:16 AM "no thanks; I shall continue to sing it and the rest of my e-trad repertoire either unaccompanied or by doubling the melody on keyboards, after, nearly always," Your choice of course, but you need to bear in mind that it was a children's song to be sung, or even chanted, in the Liverpool streets You are free to do with it what you will I always like to compare it with the versions of 'Bonny Light Horseman', and he children's 'Broken Heated I Wander' - one story, two entirely difrerent approaches I know from personal experience that 'Johnny Todd' can be used as an exercise and still be enjoyed as a serious song - the last, somewhat disgruntled moral' verse gives it enough of an edge to lift it above the usuasal lament English music may be all about the tune, but the songs have to be mainly about the words - theer are too many of them to be ignored, and their essence is in the stories they carry As so many of them in the later days of the tradition were learned from print, it is not possible to claim any song was intended to be sug to a specific tune - the singers simple snatched an existing tune to fit the words Many may have been anble to read the words but hardly any could read music, even if it had been available "So, what definition of folk song do you agree with then, Jim?" I don't need a "definition" Dave; I, like you, were you of the mind to, culd take any of the collections that have appeared over the last century and a half and the 'definition' would be staring at you in the face in the song The secret lise in the two names out songs are recognised by. "folk" and "traditional" - two sides of the same coin. "Folk" refers to the social group that probably made them, identified with them, and took ownership of them as being 'local' or Norfolk' or 'family' songs "Traditional" refers to the way they were manipulated and adapted to suit the particular singers and their communities - the journey they take from their original composer(s) through their existence The origins of these songs are unprovable and usually untraceable further back then the earliest printed versions, but even that doesn't guarantee that that's where they started I'll be talking next week about the Ballad, 'Get Up and Bar the Door' - I have no doubt that some bushy-tailed academic can give you an earliest published date, but in fact, the story dated back as far as ancient Egypt and is told about tomb robbers eating stolen figs and arguing which of them should close the tomb door in case they are found out That story lasted as traditional right into the 1970s and I would be surprised if it hadn't appeared regularly as a story and a song in the intervening years - it certainly turned up in "Ancient India" according to one anthology Now that's what I call folk That is why it is nonsense to claim that 'folk' can't be defined - the definition lies in the journey each song takes and the process it undergoes Jim Jim |
Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019 From: r.padgett Date: 11 Oct 19 - 03:09 AM "I do not think a definition of "folk music and song" is possible" Too late - it's been done and written up If it hadn't been possible we wouldn't be here talking to each other You don't really need a set definition - you can tell by the sound of the songs that they are something special Oh has it ~ by whom?? the term Folk was initially a term for songs and music ~ "from the people by the people" and really evolved with story telling to tell a story ~ the tunes of course helping memory and the conveying of that story People are people (folk is folk) and all have their own ideas and definitions ~ "already defined" oh yes when where and what gives them that right prithee? Something special does not necessarily equate with "folk" Ray |
Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019 From: The Sandman Date: 11 Oct 19 - 02:46 AM Matt Milton answered the question and geve some examples what proprtion is that of t total guest booking us or existing clubs both guest booking and non guest booking? Walkabout you consider yourself authority on english folk music? |
Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019 From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 10 Oct 19 - 07:03 PM I just got back from a swim after work and will read the rest tomorrow, but re Jim on me just once in private trying chords on Johnny Todd - "It is a perfect song for introduce people to the practice of singing - if you like it, using it in this way won't spoil it"...no thanks; I shall continue to sing it and the rest of my e-trad repertoire either unaccompanied or by doubling the melody on keyboards, after, nearly always, introducing the tune on my tenor recorder (and I have won a couple of folk festival competitions in Durham and Northumberland, by the way). As said above, English folk music, at least, is all about the tune, and that is what I keep working at - playing and singing the top/only line melody. |
Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019 From: Dave the Gnome Date: 10 Oct 19 - 06:36 PM So, what definition of folk song do you agree with then, Jim? Not mine obviously. The 1954 one? Your own one? The one that goes "you can tell by the sound of the songs"? Who judges the sound of the song? Me? Al? You? |
Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019 From: Big Al Whittle Date: 10 Oct 19 - 05:26 PM No such thing as common usage. I'm sorry I thought it was our appropriation of the word that was causing you such heartache. Believe me, if I could make it mean what you wanted it to mean in ordinary coversation. I would. just to see you happy. Meantime let me cheer you up with a folksong written by Roger Whittaker. best wishes Al |
Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019 From: GUEST,akenaton Date: 10 Oct 19 - 04:19 PM The meaning of words are changed for a purpose usually. |
Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019 From: Jim Carroll Date: 10 Oct 19 - 03:22 PM "I do not think a definition of "folk music and song" is possible" Too late - it's been done and written up If it hadn't been possible we wouldn't be here talking to each other You don't really need a set definition - you can tell by the sound of the songs that they are something special "Its common usage that defines the meaning of words." There is no common usage Al - we never won enough hears and minds for there to be one There goes that Brexit-like populism again These changes have been brought about not by "common usage" but by a bunch of ageing folikies who neither understand folk song or care about it Bye-bye 'The Voice of the People' which will remain the Elephant in the Room as long as the present diminishing revival is around No one on you have come up with what this so-called "common usage" has re-defined folk music to mean - any takers Won't hold my breath - too wheezy nowadays Jim |
Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019 From: GUEST,Hootenanny Date: 10 Oct 19 - 03:19 PM Frank The thing that introduced people here in the UK to folk music that were not fans was Skiffle courtesy of Lonnie Donegan and Chris Barber and their version of a Leadbelly song. I am sure that you already know that. Skiffle clubs started up and some morphed into folk clubs, some to rock. Ewan, Peggy and Alan Lomax jumped on the wagon and formed and recorded as part of a skiffle group which included a couple of jazz musicians. One club in London became the Ballads & Blues Club. Ewan & Peggy became residents. In my opinion without skiffle Ewan might have found it hard to find an audience and probably never have met Peggy. |
Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019 From: Dave the Gnome Date: 10 Oct 19 - 03:02 PM Spot on both Al and Ray. Words are defined by popular usage and folk song cannot really be defined in any meaningful way. There are so many facets of it it would be like trying define beauty! |
Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019 From: r.padgett Date: 10 Oct 19 - 02:01 PM I do not think a definition of "folk music and song" is possible ~ except maybe in very broad terms ~ that is an agreed one!! Ray |
Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019 From: Big Al Whittle Date: 10 Oct 19 - 01:32 PM its not a question of academics coming up with a definition. Its common usage that defines the meaning of words. there are people who disagree with the meaning we have ascribed to the word 'gay'. they write to the papers. they get worked up. they say its a sign of degeneracy. sound familiar....? |
Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019 From: Stringsinger Date: 10 Oct 19 - 01:12 PM "Even if we still had some traditional singers around appearing on a good stage in a good setting with a knowlegeable compere (few of those around) with or without alcohol you would still have a problem finding an audience. It just isn't there." I think there could be if it could be promoted. It would have to start small and grow. Alcohol precludes youngsters from participation. Folk music is in its tradition often a family affair. Songs are generated through the aural fashion, lullabys, sketches of songs, even ballads handed down by parents to children. My contention has always been that people who are exposed to folk music have to own it. One way, the way I've found, is to teach it through songs, instrumental accompaniment on folk instruments or a cappella. If people can use it in their own lives, it becomes appreciated when others perform it. The reason it endures regardless of its mass popularity is that it contains human values and emotions that we can all identify with. The themes are those that when released from the popular music idea which is it has to be liked because it's popular, is a tautology that can be broken by educating the public. Ewan and Peggy had an effect on introducing people to folk music who were not fans, as did the Kingston Trio in America. Those popularized performers grew out of an interest in folk music by small groups of people. For me, folk music is experiential. I had to learn to listen to it to finally enjoy and understand it. My mind had to slow down to a different time when technology had not robbed people of their leisure and created problems that it was intended to fix. The fast cars, cell phones, computerized data processing world can find relief in a simpler pace, a human transmission of emotions on a less manufactured scale. We can be trained to enjoy and listen to a song sung without excessive production values or basic accompaniment. Trying to define folk music is the old blind man with the elephant. Parts of it mean different things to different people. However, the main point for me is that once I hear it, it engenders a sympathetic vibration and it defines itself. I can be absorbed in a story/song/ballad with many verses done a cappella or with musical tasteful accompaniment that doesn't require a light show, dry ice or loud electronic noise. It's kind of like learning to enjoy the taste of a good organic apple instead of a meal laced with preservatives, chemicals and artificial flavoring. I like simple and subtle rather than complex and crude in music. Folk music does that for me. Many classical or musically sophisticated composers have agreed with me. Bartok, Vaughan Williams, Beethoven....you name it. |
Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019 From: Jim Carroll Date: 10 Oct 19 - 11:54 AM Can I just remind people of my permanent offer Some time ago I purchased a lump of PCloud which I am using to share some of our archive of traditional song I filled I started to distribute it some months ago and have had an encouraging number of takers right up to the present tim - still dipping in regularly Anybody who wishes to help themselves to what's on offer can do so by giving me their e-mail address to enable me to link them to the box The beauty of sharing digitised material is that it never runs dry If anythone is seeking anything specific - If I have it, it's yours for the asking - no strings attached Jim |
Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019 From: Jim Carroll Date: 10 Oct 19 - 11:13 AM "Maybe if the 'folk' is still not revived, it's time to accept it's not going to.." 's up to you if you want to do that Guest We are in the middle of a huge revival of traditional music here in Irland, song is now beginning to move in the same direction I would hate to think the same thing can't happen back home It won't if people sit on their bums and watch it slip down the pan To borrow from the L'Oréal ad - folk song is "worth it" - in my opinion of course Jim |
Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019 From: Dave the Gnome Date: 10 Oct 19 - 11:09 AM Is there an agreed definition of folk music that you agree with, Jim? If so, what is it? And you still haven't said which part of my definition is true. |
Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019 From: Jim Carroll Date: 10 Oct 19 - 10:38 AM "Not an agreed definition. " Why do you think we are discussing this Dave - you have dismissed what I belive to be folk song as "my opinion" , yet you are now admitting that you are only giving yours I don't want to fall out with you or anybody because our opinions differ, but I do care very much what is happening to the public face of folk song - the clubs Are you honestly suggesting that any culture can thrive if it can't be defined and agreed on ? I don't Jim |
Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019 From: GUEST Date: 10 Oct 19 - 10:38 AM Maybe if the 'folk' is still not revived, it's time to accept it's not going to..... |
Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019 From: Dave the Gnome Date: 10 Oct 19 - 10:15 AM You asked for my definition, Jim. Not an agreed definition. Not anyone else's definition. You asked me to define folk music. I did. Now, which part of my definition do you think is true? |
Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019 From: Jim Carroll Date: 10 Oct 19 - 10:03 AM In order for something to be a 'definition' it has to be agreed on by others, otherwise people stop communicating with each other - which I think is what happened to us here Sorry - you are shadow-boxing and evading the important points Shame Jim |
Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019 From: Dave the Gnome Date: 10 Oct 19 - 09:21 AM It is a definition, Jim, regardless of what you say it is. It is how I define folk song and of course it is personal, it is mine. I don't expect anyone to abide by it or even agree with it. As Ray said earlier, "WE must NOT be led like a bull by its nose, folk music simply as stated by Folk music presenters is not always folk music". I would add that folk music simply as stated by anyone is not always the full picture either. But I do not believe we are wasting our time. You said my definition was partly true and I asked which bit(s). Let's start from common ground and work up from there. I expect we will agree about a lot more than you think. |
Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019 From: Jim Carroll Date: 10 Oct 19 - 09:17 AM Sorry about the "poing" it should have been point but poing is a pretty fair description of the feeling contantly having your aumennts being bounced back without substantial response - sort of like throwing a ball against a stone wall Jim |
Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019 From: Jim Carroll Date: 10 Oct 19 - 08:32 AM "You may disagree with it, Jim, but it is my definition. " It isn't a definition Dave - it's your own take - the "personal view" you always accuse me of having You have not responded to a single poing I have made or a single question I have asked - particularly on 'The Voice of The People' It seems we are both wasting our time Thanks Obbo Haven't quite come down from it yet The gilyt was added to the gingerbred last night when I got word from the National Sound Archive that they are interested in examining the large Singers Workshop archive I have had left in my care Hope I can sober up before Belfast next week Jim |
Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019 From: Dave the Gnome Date: 10 Oct 19 - 07:08 AM You may disagree with it, Jim, but it is my definition. Why you say I have not given one when this is the umpteenth time is beyond me. Anyhow, hopefully, you will not say it again. So, next, how is that definition against anything I have said before? And if my definition is partly true, which bit(s) do you agree with? |
Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019 From: GUEST,Observer Date: 10 Oct 19 - 06:56 AM We have just received the wonderful news that the National Sound Archive at the British Library had received a sizeable grant and wants to put our collection on line ............... At last people will be able to hear what Walter Pardon and Mikeen McCarthy, and Peggy Delaney and Mary Delaney..... and all those other wonderful people had so say about their songs - Jim Carroll. Wonderful news, very pleased to hear that, well done Jim! It is good to see a real life example of belief and perseverance paying off. |
Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019 From: Jim Carroll Date: 10 Oct 19 - 06:54 AM Your definition goes directly against the things you have arfued for and is only partially true A folk siong is a song made by the folk, and reprocessed by th e folk down the ages The folk are no longer making songs so anything using folk techniques can only become folk songs when they are absorbed into a folk tradition If they were what you are auging for there would be no problem - it isn't "the storry and meaning bit is meaningless , most songs, from operatic arias to many pop songs have them If this is what you want what in gods name are you talking about when you talk about "the same songs for all eternity" Theer anr many thousands of folk song, most of those that were are no longer being sung - new collections are being made available regularly I have a working repertoire of three hundred songs - folk an contemporary - if I was the one singing foull songs I could go on or a month without having to repeat myself I haven't even begun to re-visit The Carpenter Collection yet Last month I co-operated to with Rod Stradling to issue a collection of, as yet unheard Yorkshire folk songs Rod has complained that he cant find customers for his collections - 3 purchases of a double album of Sam Larner - and I was one of those and you say I don't know what is happening on a perfectly healthy folk scene If our secen is healthy - where is it and what is is singing People here not only appear to not to sing it but some have advocated openly that it's had its day and it's time it shuffled off the scene and made room for something else If you didn't agree with them, why didn't you say so instead of targeting my argument ? As the old joke says, "you may claim to have bad eyesight, but your prick's pointing to West Point" Jim |
Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019 From: Dave the Gnome Date: 10 Oct 19 - 06:32 AM Sorry, I should have added sung in a traditional manner. It is not the content but the presentation that makes it folk. |
Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019 From: Dave the Gnome Date: 10 Oct 19 - 06:31 AM I pointed out that you have no agreed definition - your silence and obvious evasion confirms that I have told you many times what my definition of folk song is. What you call my silence is merely you disagreeing with it but here we go again. Folk song, to me, is any song with a story or meaning, sung unaccompanied or accompanied by traditional instruments, without electronic enhancement. This can be either traditional or contemporary. Copyright does not come in to it unless the song is recorded. |
Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019 From: Jim Carroll Date: 10 Oct 19 - 05:56 AM "Horton Barker with Hobart Smith." Possibly Hoot - memory for names is not what it was Thank you Jim |
Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019 From: GUEST,Hootenanny Date: 10 Oct 19 - 05:35 AM Jim, If I am not mistaken you appear to be confusing Horton Barker with Hobart Smith. |
Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019 From: Jim Carroll Date: 10 Oct 19 - 05:08 AM That people have to listen to the same song for eternity is the most ridiculous excuse ever Do you know ham nay folk songs tht are no longer sung ? Do you know how many new collections that have recently come available If you are takling about folk songs as a genre - fair enough - if you don't like them don't get involved and certainly don't attempt to replace them Shakespeare only wrote 37 plays yet he remains the most important and longest lasting playwright that ever lived - his pitiful number of plays have survived for centuries and there is no sign of tat ever changing Our 305 traditional ballads are easily their equivalent - if not more so Jim |
Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019 From: Jim Carroll Date: 10 Oct 19 - 04:42 AM "Brexit is a bit more important, Jim. " What kind of answer is that Dave ? Ther removal of a large slice of worin history wil damage working people's perception of themselves forever Brexit, whatever the ourtcome will pass into history like the memory of the bad fart it is " Are you really saying that unless it is in one of the books you mention, it is not folk music" Please do not distort my words Dave I don't need a book to recognize a folk song - they are merely confirming records We have talked inteminaly about making new songs using the old models - tyou suggestion is sheer dishonesty I pointed out that you have no agreed definition - your silence and obvious evasion confirms that Jim |
Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019 From: Dave the Gnome Date: 10 Oct 19 - 04:26 AM Brexit is a bit more important, Jim. Folk music will not ruin lives, businesses or the economy. Your analogy is fallacious. As to the tomes of documented folk music. Are you really saying that unless it is in one of the books you mention, it is not folk music? If so, how can we ever get new folk music? Are we destined to sing the same songs for all eternity. If so, I must start to agree with the MP that said his idea of hell was a folk club! |
Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019 From: Jim Carroll Date: 10 Oct 19 - 04:19 AM The adiscussion is jut mebinning and is now touching on the most important points If you have nothing to say on the matter Ake, go away Jim Carroll |
Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019 From: GUEST,akenaton Date: 10 Oct 19 - 04:16 AM I think this thread has come full circle, there is no revival in 2019. Basically there is traditional music and there is popular music which includes what we refer to as contemporary folk. Much of this contemporary music consists of producing a saleable sound especially amongst young performers here in Scotland. Regrettably much of the tradition is being pressed to this purpose, tunes and words battered beyond recognition, all suppressed by the interminable beat which seems to be compulsory. I have a lot of sympathy with Mr Padgett's comment.... "as soon as folk audiences are invited to wave their arms in the air it is NOT folk". |
Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019 From: Jim Carroll Date: 10 Oct 19 - 03:59 AM Cross-posted Tank you a million times for this "The majority may be wrong but they are the majority and it is the majority perception that matters" Where am hearing this constantly nowadays - every time I switch on a Brexit debate The only difference is that a slim majority were conned enough to vote or this act of self-harm Folk song, however defined, has never caught the interest, nver mind the support of the vast majority of the people A "majority" Com onnnnnn ! The people don't care - the only people who do are us crumblies with one foot in the flower bed Haven taken on the music, it is up to us to take on the responsibility for it This is little more than populism without the opportunity to vote Jim Carroll Jim |
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