the uk folk revival in 2019

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: r.padgett
Date: 12 Oct 19 - 03:17 AM

Yes - newly written songs were included in the traditional repertoire - all songs started somewhere, but it was the process that made them folk songs, not their being sung
The logic of your argument is that every song a traditional singer sings must be folk necause he/she sings it, so if Sam Larner sang Nessun Dorma, it would automatically be a folk song

The new songs can never be traditional folk songs ~ they are contemporary folk songs ~ Jim you cannot pinch or copyright the word Folk or folk

Ray Padgett

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: GUEST,Keith Price
Date: 12 Oct 19 - 03:57 AM

"they are contemporary folk songs " I'm not shit stirring Ray but are you saying All new songs are contemporary folk songs,if not why not, what makes them contemporary FOLK songs ?

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Oct 19 - 04:12 AM

"Let me by this straight, Jim. You reckon that neither Skipton nor Keighley nor Bradford folk clubs can tell the difference between Joe Heaney and Ed Sheran? Have I got that right?"
No Dave - you told me that some Ed Sheran songs could pass as folk songs

Yes - we do have different views of what constitutes a folk song
I base mine on a more than a century's work by many researchers and collectors, on collections identified under that title, on research that stretches back into the 19th century, on a term, "folk", that was created in 1846 which identified the cultural customs and creations of "ordinary People' as THE FOLK, on a definition that was arrived at by an group of researchers in the genre to try and understand and assess the Music and Voice of the People and on a song revival that came together in the 1950s and lasted for around four decades to sing folk songs, which never seriously challenged or attempted to re-define any of the above until the last few years, when it was seriously on the wane and facing extinction
What do you base yours on ?      

Despite claims to the contrary, the definition I choose to use is not MY DEFINITION but the one that came into being ONE HUNDRED AND SEVENTY THREE YEARS AGO AND HAS NEVER BEEN REPLACED AS A DESCRIPTION OF THE CREATIVE CULTURE OF THE LOWER CLASSES OF THESE ISLANDS
Of course, there is room for adaptation and flexibility within that description, but if we are going to continue working and communicating with each other on this IN MY OPINION, EXTREMELY IMPORTANT CULTURAL PHENOMENON, ANY MAJOR CHANGES HAVE TO BE AGREED ON BY ENOUGH PEOPLE TO MAKE THAT POSSIBLE
Going 'native' and deciding that you are going to have your own personal definition and present your own species of 'folk' to the wider world, can only lead to confusion, loss of understanding and eventually irreparable damage to the 'folk genres' (not just song and music)
I don't want to fall out with people I disagree with - on the contrary
I value the communication and friendships and education my involvement with this bloody superb cultural phenomenon has given me for the best part of my life every bit as much as I value folk Song, lore, and music itself, in many of its forms

If you have an alternative definition to "folk" then tell me what it is, where I can find it and who agrees it
Please - none of you - do not revert to populism and claim "that's what the people want", we all know from current bitter, current experience what that sort of thing leads to
We never managed to win over enough of the "the people" for them to know what folk sing is or care - our music can't survive if it is not understood and cherished by large enough numbers of people

It strikes me that those who want a "singing horse" definition, neither like nor understand folk music - it may suit them personally but it bodes ill for the future
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Oct 19 - 04:14 AM

" they are contemporary folk songs"
Not until the folk have processed and claimed them as their own
"folk" isn't a style - it's a process
Jim

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Oct 19 - 05:10 AM

"Jim you cannot pinch or copyright the word Folk or folk"
Totally agree - it's already spoken for and had been since it was taken up all those years ago, pretty will like cabbages and baked beans - they are what they are
Jim

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Oct 19 - 05:48 AM

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 11 Oct 19 - 10:13 AM

...where would you send someone looking for fol;k songs ?
Jim

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Dave the Gnome - PM
Date: 11 Oct 19 - 10:57 AM

...I would send them to Skipton folk club on a Monday. Bacca pipes in Keighley on a Friday or the Topic in Bradford on a Thursday.

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 11 Oct 19 - 08:47 PM

So you would send them to a club that can't tell the difference between Joe Heaney and Ed Shearan - must write that down

Now how am I supposed to read that exchange other than you believe the clubs I mentioned can't tell the difference? Yet you deny that is what you meant. Just what did you mean then?

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 12 Oct 19 - 05:56 AM

I still prefer my "traditional" versus "composer" (above/here), rather than "contemporary," Ray - some of Ewan MacColl's folk songs, e.g., were written quite a while ago now.

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Oct 19 - 06:40 AM

Well there's a saying in the music business - if it were easy, every bugger would be doing it.

At college The spinners used to turn up and do a professional gig. As far as I was concerned in those days (the 1960's) the answer was blowing in the wind (man!), so I wasn't really enamoured. Although I can remember being impressed with Hughie's version of Matty Groves.

I suppose it was the 1980's (when I had been, allegedly, a professional musician a number of years) that I grew to respect The Spinners dedication ....and achievement. Even started going to their final gigs. Their work on cd was available at every service station for a quid or less.

The stupid uniforms, the rather wet singalongs, the angularity and simplification of complex folksong forms....they were really clever compromises. They were the intelligent ones - not me (man!...stupid hippy). Because of the compromises they devised a way to make living out of performing a wide range of folksongs. They were the ones who performed The Bleacher Lass of Kelvinhaugh on Pebble Mill at One - and brought a beautiful folksong into millions of homes.

That's an achievement.

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Howard Jones
Date: 12 Oct 19 - 07:38 AM

It was me who mentioned the Kinks, not to claim they were "folk" but as an example of how their songwriting, when performed in an appropriate "folk" style, might not be out of place in a folk club. In particular I had in mind Swan Arcade's three-part harmony version of "Lola", which always went down a storm even amongst audiences with a strong preference for trad. (Swan Arcade of course often included songs from outside the usual folk repertoire).

Jim in his usual fashion seized the wrong end of the stick and has refused to release his grasp in spite of my attempts to explain my meaning, and I don't propose to continue that discussion now.

Full disclosure: my band recorded a version of the Kinks' "Harry Rag" (with a morris tune as a middle 8) for a folk album for the BBC's Children in Need Appeal. That track was one of those picked out for praise by Folk Roots' reviewer, although perhaps some would not regard that as a recommendation.

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Oct 19 - 07:48 AM

".I would send them to Skipton folk club on a Monday."
I didn't respond to this Dave because I wasn't sure you were serious
I've had this before - "If you want to heare good folk song come to Lewes" last time
You are suggesting that a you would tell a newbie in say Taunton, or Glasgow or Chipping Sobury who posts to Mudcat asking for where he could find out about folk song you'd tell him -"Eee lad, just nip on a train Tae Kieghleigh or Bradford - and we'll put thee right" ?
I'll give that some serious thought - (not- of course)
If if those places were representative of good genuine folk song (???) how about if someone then posted, "Nay lad - they're a bunch of finger-in-ear folk police - tak naa notice o' them"
Once upon I time they could be told, contact EFDSS and they'll put you right - looking at what appaers on their website - no thanks
Once upon a time there were enough clubs around to at least be able to recommend some - now we are getting complaints on this forum that people singing folk songs - especially unaccompanied, are beginning to be made unwelcome
More late
Jim

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Oct 19 - 08:13 AM

Sorry Howard - however Kinks material is handled and whoever by, it doesn't come within a mile of resembling a folk song
I wnet to a very enjoyable concert of singing in East Kilbride - at the end of the ecvenin a very fine singer of traditional songs finished the evening of with two Cliff Richards numbers
Still haven't got over the disillusionment
Jim

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Vic Smith
Date: 12 Oct 19 - 08:16 AM

Howard -
I had in mind Swan Arcade's three-part harmony version of "Lola"

I remember their performance of this song with affection. We booked Swan Arcade (Dave & Heather Brady and Jim Boyes) on a number of occasions. All excellent singers and with really sure and sometimes quite chilling harmony singing. They had a catholic approach to repertoire; largely traditional but they had no problem in placing Dives & Lazarus next to a piece of intelligent, quirky, funny songwriting like Ray Davies' Lola or Weary Whaling Grounds next to Paperback Writer. Their interpretation of these pop songs enabled them to be seen in a different light and the trad-loving audiences that we attracted could recognise the way they had arranged the harmonies for these songs had been achieved with care and skill... and yes, these "always went down a storm" but no more so than their arrangements of traditional songs. Nobody thought that they were inappropriate.
I was very saddened by the death of Dave Brady. The musical skill and the thought with which he brought to his singing and group arrangements was exceptional.

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Howard Jones
Date: 12 Oct 19 - 08:25 AM

There are still some old-style folk clubs around but they are no longer commonplace and you can no longer expect to find at least one in any town. However there are still plenty of opportunities to listen to folk music, but these are mostly in concert settings. If you want to perform yourself, there are plenty of singers clubs and despite Jim's experiences many of them are not free-for-all open mics. However far too many of these have allowed standards to fall, so it is very hit-and-miss what you may find.

In both cases these are probably for economic reasons. Concerts seat more and can charge more, and can pay the performers a realistic amount. Small singarounds dare not risk turning people away because they are no good or because their material is not folk, or they would fold.

The younger generation now coming into folk seem happy to enjoy it differently from ours. They are happy to attend concerts and festivals to listen to music. Many of them sing and play, which they do in sessions (including at festivals). Many are very involved in folk dance. They just don't want to sit in a dingy pub back room with people who are their grandparents's age.

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 12 Oct 19 - 08:59 AM

The BBC are partly at fault for a drop in standards: a few years ago, after Chris Wood won Song of the Year at the BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards, with "Hollow Point", I made an online challenge for session musicians to try and double the melody of his singing.

It seemed to me there was no real attempt to count the syllables/use slurs, etc., in order to fit his words to a REPEATED tune yet, as I say, he, rather than others doing the right thing, won the award and, no doubt, several bookings.

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Oct 19 - 09:36 AM

"but these are mostly in concert settings."
So folk music has become passively participant rather than participatory - I think that makes my point perfectly
We go and pay for what we are given instead of being given a chance to make our own music
As far as long rejected pop music is concerned - as afr as I can see, it isn't going to attract a new audience oor it would have done when it was in the hands of the professionals, so it can only work as nostalgia for those whose youth it was part of
What's the point - ?
The repetitive and non narrative nature of things like Lola and Paperback Writer is about as far from our passion filled and concise folk songs as you can get
You may just as well call your clubs something like 'Folkieoki' - that seems to be what they are
If you call yourself folk clubs you need to set yourselves parameters based on folk styles over which you seldom, if ever exceed
The music you claim to represent has to be a foundation of everything you do
If it doesn't work, then the music has failed and we have to live with that and work around it to make sure it isn't forgotten, but what is happening is that the music I know to be folk is being challenged and driven off the public scene
I'm beginning to believe that what happened in Ireland in the early eighties needs to happen in the UK and quick
I came onto the Irish scene when people believed we would be the last generation to be able to enjoy traditional music
Then the effects of the Willie Clancy Summer School began to kick in, former pupils began to take classes, Nicholals Carolan and others established The Traditional Music Archive, the NPU Pipers established themselves a wonderful centre and before you new it, Traditional music had guaranteed itself an at least two generation future
Both the music and especially the singing still have some way to go, but at least there is now a consensus on what it is and they know where they are going - with plenty of room for experimentation and diversion
I'm not involved in the organisation in any of this but the mostly dead Clare singers are in a big way via our COUNTY LIBRARY   
Similar resources are available on the ITMA and other sires and hopefully, the rest of our recordings will eventually be available via the World Music Centre at Limerick University - I only hope Walter Pardon feels at home there

I find it hard to believe that there aren't enough lovers of genuine folk to regroup somehow nad win back the rapidly disappearing music - they are welcome to our substantial and now digitised archive anytime
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: r.padgett
Date: 12 Oct 19 - 09:42 AM

"they are contemporary folk songs " I'm not shit stirring Ray but are you saying All new songs are contemporary folk songs,if not why not, what makes them contemporary FOLK songs

No no I have said we can recognise a FOLK song by its style ~ a Contemporary folk song does not have to spend any time any more, in becoming recognised as such any more ~ yes traditional songs did have to pass that test in hundreds of years because their originators were far distant or unkown ~ they are called Traditional folk songs and no doubt include Child Ballads and Music hall

I would ask how would people classify: note what I have asked please ~

Eric Bogle

Ralph McTell

Ewan MacColl

Jez Lowe

Are they not established FOLK singers? writing contemporary folk songs? they are not pop songs the genre is Folk is it not?

Ray Padgett

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Oct 19 - 10:57 AM

" I have said we can recognise a FOLK song by its style "
No we can't - folk isn't a "style" it's a process identified with a social group
Your list is how one of the most prolific composer on it describes himself - "a contemporary song-maker who makes songs using folk styles"
If he rejected the description "folk song writer" who the hell is anybody here to contradict him

Can't speak for all of them but I'm pretty sure Eric Bole doesn't describe what he writes as 'fok songs' - not that it matters too much
There's a not so slight problem here
Legally folk songs are in the public domain
How many on your list would be prepared to forgo the ownership of the songs they write ?
I know they all copyrighted their songs and I never knew Ewan to complain of other people using his without permission - but how would the rest of them feel about it ?
After he died, Peggy gave me a tape he labelled 'Chamber of Horrors' - about a dozen versions of 'First Time Ever' recorded commercially without permission or payment
Peggy said he didn't mind
Jim

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Howard Jones
Date: 12 Oct 19 - 11:41 AM

Folk hasn't become more passive rather than participatory, but these are increasingly happening in different and separate settings. Even in the traditional folk club, a floor singer would normally expect to perform only two or maybe three songs in an evening and the rest of the time would be spent listening to others. Now what seems to be happening is that people go to some events to be part of a listening audience (which does not rule out joining in with choruses) and to entirely different events to participate as singers and musicians. These are not necessarily being held in traditional folk clubs, and the (typically older) folk club audiences may not even be aware of what younger folk enthusiasts are doing.

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Oct 19 - 12:27 PM

"Folk hasn't become more passive rather than participatory,"
Your "concert settings" suggest they have
Never been to a concert yet where floor singers are invited up
"The "different settings" in my experience are anything goes singaround sessions where folk songs are included and sometimes tolerated (just)
In Ireland they are called 'Singing Circles' - very much a mixed feast
In a club I have bo hesitation in getting up and singing say, a 10-15 verse ballad - I would hesitate to do this in a singing circle because they would be at least twice as long as any of the non-folk material - selfish, you say the least
So you would suggest we abandon the folk scene we halped set up and go off and find venues where we may be given a chance to sing what we like - or maybe not
Good luck with that one

It's true that the 'singers from the floor' spot was limited in many clubs, - most I was involved with was, bu the 'club nature of the set-ups made room for workshops to bring less experienced singers in and maybe develop as residents
We had an archive and a library and a group of willing volunteers ready to give up their spare time to help bring on others
The grass roots clubs built a foundation for folk singing in Britain for many year- maybe it's a coincidence that
Now were'e beint told to piss of and go and find another place to sing - not necessarily a folk club
Sounds fair enough to me, I'm sure !!!
Jim

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 12 Oct 19 - 12:30 PM

I can think of several partictipatory events near me that describe themselves as "folk clubs". At one you will be lucky to hear anything that I would describe as a folk song, others are strongly trad. Tne unifying factor is that they are particpatory and they don't give a damn about the Folk Commissars who post here.

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 12 Oct 19 - 12:43 PM

Maybe you've got over the shock, Jim C, but NO I wasn't referring to your post- the previous one (by Pseudo somebody) seems to have disappeared. I meant that one.
I hope you savoured the moment anyway, but as you know, I hardly agree with anything you say, nor your definitions, nor your views on the current UK folk scene nor your repeated and tiresome exaggerations about IRELAND- THE LOST WORLD OF TRADITIONAL MUSIC.

So I'll just leave it there- we are different people with different tastes- that's the root of it really

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Oct 19 - 01:06 PM

" but NO I wasn't referring to your post
Ddn't think for a minute you were Jim
The one noted for his insulting and abusive behavior is very much more to your taste, no doubt
Nice example of what I'm talking about belowe
Jim
"Folk Commissars who post here."

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Oct 19 - 01:12 PM

Gewst Peter
Would it be too much to ask that you didn't behave like a "Folk Commissar" when you visit this thread please ?
Nobody has insulted you - please reciprocate
Jim

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Howard Jones
Date: 12 Oct 19 - 01:43 PM

"The "different settings" in my experience are anything goes singaround sessions where folk songs are included and sometimes tolerated (just)"

But as you've admitted yourself, your experience of the current UK folk scene is limited. Even if it weren't, it is questionable whether someone of your generation (or mine) would become aware of what younger people are doing. These things are largely shared via social media, and whilst they don't mean to be exclusive and anyone is welcome they inevitably tend to focus on a particular group of people and a younger age range. I only have some insight because one of my bandmates is half my age, and through him I get to know other younger musicians. They are talented, and enthusiastic about all aspects of folk, including traditional music and song.

There's a lot of folk music out there, it's just not all happening in ways you would be familiar with, or would even get to hear about. Whilst the old folk club scene is undoubtedly in decay (fortunately with some exceptions) it is developing in new ways. Just because you don't approve doesn't mean that the music is being neglected.

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 12 Oct 19 - 01:52 PM

" I have said we can recognise a FOLK song by its style "
No we can't - folk isn't a "style" it's a process identified with a social group (Ray and Jim)...I think good English folk singers have an earthy style as if from a social group that worked hard for a living - ploughing the earth or the main for some gold to gain.

And good folk singers from Mongolia, by way of comparison, are good at throat singing and mimicking their local natural sounds - rather than rapping or going into their sweeter head voice to mimic American pop singers as, sadly, the majority of young Mongolians and young English now do.

We need a huge surge in positive English nationalism, positive Mongolian nationalism, etc.

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 12 Oct 19 - 02:16 PM

https://www.jstor.org/stable/738206?seq=1#metadata_info_tab_contents

Excellent essay and worth a read.

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Oct 19 - 02:35 PM

"I think good English folk singers have an earthy style"tyle vary form area to area, and certainly from different social groups
The tendency seems to be that the Traditional singers use speaking tones and sing the words as near as they would speak them - no gaps, no breaking up where possible
Very different to the gappy, hiccoughy singing of some revival singers - and no interminable accompaniment breaks TBTG
The old crowd may have been past their peak but there were very few that couldn't teach the youngsters a few things   
Jim

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Oct 19 - 02:37 PM

Thanks Starry
Jim

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 12 Oct 19 - 03:24 PM

Agree on the lack of gaps, Jim - just a quick breath after each line of verse (which surely relates to the unaccompanied tradition, as well as a desire to crack on with it).

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 12 Oct 19 - 03:58 PM

Thanks Starship - more bedtime reading!

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 Oct 19 - 04:11 PM

I've just deleted my intended reply as I don't wish to upset the vast majority of people here.

I will just say the 1954 definition and its adherents have done a great deal of damage to the folk music of England and the UK.

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Jack Campin
Date: 12 Oct 19 - 04:56 PM

I had never heard of Sydney Grew (author of that glob of cliched dreck Starship linked to) before, and there's a reason for that. I can't imagine any publication that had to spend money on real paper accepting that today.

Completely irrelevant to the present situation of any genre of music in Britain or anywhere else.

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Oct 19 - 05:49 PM

Meanwhile, what about the original question ? Anybody ?

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Oct 19 - 07:26 PM

I'm not keen on village halls. I can see that those concerts provide money for pro folksingers.   And that's good. However the atmosphere is very much like a concert.....something is missing, as far as I'm concerned.

I think maybe its the working class.

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Oct 19 - 07:54 PM

"And that's good."
Only if they are worth it Al
"something is missing, as far as I'm concerned."
Amen to that
"I will just say the 1954 definition and its adherents have done a great deal of damage to the folk music of England and the UK."
I have reservations about some of it's shortcomings but I think it did far more good than harm
I think those that have insisted that folk doesn't need a definition has robbed it of its uniqueness and bloody near killed it off
If '54 hasn't done the trick then nobody has come up with a better one to date

"just a quick breath after each line of verse"
We have singing exercises for breathing that can extend it beyond that
One of MacColl's Party pieces was to sing a verse of Galway Races in one breath - Tail Toddle he could manage at his best - - 2 choruses and a verse in one breath (I have recordings of him doing it somewhere)
I managed 'Galway' a few times when I was young and Tail Toddle twice
These were exercises - not for public performances
The trick with singing is to be able to manage a snatch break at a comma and a full breath at a full stop - as you would if you were speaking it
Jim

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: r.padgett
Date: 13 Oct 19 - 03:00 AM

"No we can't - folk isn't a "style" it's a process identified with a social group
Your list is how one of the most prolific composer on it describes himself - "a contemporary song-maker who makes songs using folk styles"
If he rejected the description "folk song writer" who the hell is anybody here to contradict him!

How do you know whoever he "rejected the description ~ folk song writer" if he is using folk styles he is doing what contemporary folk song writer do! He may well not be writing in the genre of course and therefore not be a folk song writer and of course be a popular song writer! Yes not all contemporary songs are folk songs!

It is the style, the content of the subject matter and intention of the writer and of course of the intended audience that defines whether it is a folk song or not

No no traditional and folk song are not the same thing no matter how much you would like it be

Ray

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Oct 19 - 04:11 AM

"if he is using folk styles he is doing what contemporary folk song writer do!
That depends on the writer and the song he/she created"
I was referring to MacColl, of course - 300 plus known composed songs and god knows how many forgotton ones (according to his widow)
The term "folk" has been made so meaningless by (often deliberate) misuse that many of today's folk composers imitate non-folk styles anyway (Ed Shearan and Ray Davis's names have come up, for instance)
MacColl sang his own songs , but he sang far more traditional ones - (he breathed fresh life into around 140 Child Ballads), so it was inevitable that the two would merge

"Intended audience" was the last thing that influenced his songwriting - the subject matter was the be-all and end-all of all his creations - he made songs because he felt the necessity to say something - as I believe all those anonymous people who made our folk-songs did who made our folk-songs
His best songs (in my opinion) were made by taking recorded actuality from the people the songs were about and using the information and language to create new songs - Sam Larner, Ronnie Balls, Ben Bright, Jack Hamilton, Jack Elliot,,,,
It was this technique, not MacColl's folkness that made the songs the great compositions that they were
I know MacColl rejected the description 'Folk song writer' because he said it often enough in my company - he considered it important
He also considered it important that new songs were created using the old models if the revival was going to mean anything other than being a museum for old songs.

"No no traditional and folk song are not the same"
You can repeat this until your arse drops off, but until you explain yourself and prove it to be the case it will never be more than a denial.
I've shown you mine - now it's your turn to show me yours Ray

Your starter for ten:
Why are they not the two sides of the same coin ?
"Folk" refers to the social group that probably made them, identified with them, and took ownership of them as being 'local' or Norfolk' or 'family' songs
"Traditional" refers to the way they were manipulated and adapted to suit the particular singers and their communities - the journey they take from their original composer(s) through their existence
Jim

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 13 Oct 19 - 05:54 AM

There is no revival in comparison to the fifties, which has been shown not to have been a revival at all..... moves to modernise the genre(if it is a genre)….have been totally unsuccessful, turning off "the people" in droves. The exhibition of the young people who perform under the banner of folk nowadays is excruciatingly painful to me as a listener with a lifelong interest in traditional music. The majority of these performers seem to have no general appeal and what they perform has only a passing resemblance to the inclusive amateur traditional music of my childhood.   I'm afraid time have changed right enough and modern society neither needs nor wants proper inclusivity.
On reflection traditional music differed greatly in different areas of the country and those variants did not transfer easily. Here in the West of Scotland traditional music was almost exclusively Gaelic, usually accompanied by jigs reels and waltz...always the dancing, an integral part. I suppose most parts of Great Britain had there own brand of traditional music with Morris or Irish dancing as part of the process.    The decline is definitely down to societal change an is almost certainly terminal if society continues to lose its cohesion.

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Oct 19 - 06:12 AM

What a strange piece of revisionist history
So many of us being fooled for so long
The "myth2 you described fooled the best of Scotland's intellectuals and poets and, as it was largely based on what was still being drawn from the remnants of living traditions, large numbers of traditional singers from both the settled and Traveller communities
I suggest you read and listen to what people like Sheila Stert and her like had to say and write - 'Scottish Studies' might be a good place to start
Utter nonsense on most counts there Ake - the best yet, in my experience
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Oct 19 - 06:14 AM

'"Intended audience" was the last thing that influenced his songwriting - the subject matter was the be-all and end-all of all his creations - he made songs because he felt the necessity to say something - as I believe all those anonymous people who made our folk-songs did who made our folk-songs'

That's a very interestingf and profound thought - worthy of a thread on its own. After all I don't know what I'm going to do tomorrow, god alone knows what the folk revival will do before the new year.

I always thinkthe most successful song carries with them their own proscenium arch, like in a theatre.

Sometimes the proscenium arch is the speakers of a juke box. Sometimes its posh stereo system which lets you hear every harmony and overtone.

Sometimes its the song that gets the eleven o'clock drinkers in a pub get up and dance.

Sometimes that decision about the song can be made by the performer. I once saw a fabulous performance of the shanty lowlands sang as a chorale piece by the cast of a production of Treasure Island.

Ewan's proscenium was very flexible, because of the diverse skills that he and Peggy had as performers. But having said that they were masters of the folk club as the proscenium arch - the intended audience.

I never really saw Ewan's songs as a howl in the desert of human relationships - in the way that Robert Johnson's were. I doubt Robert ever got to play many of his own introspective songs in the dumps he seemed to play. Probably his hit Terraplane Blues.

Ewan was a master of language, and his words were by turn witty and heartbreaking. I'm sure he intended there to be an audience.

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 13 Oct 19 - 06:25 AM

"just a quick breath after each line of verse"
We have singing exercises for breathing that can extend it beyond that
One of MacColl's Party pieces was to sing a verse of Galway Races in one breath - Tail Toddle he could manage at his best - - 2 choruses and a verse in one breath (I have recordings of him doing it somewhere)
I managed 'Galway' a few times when I was young and Tail Toddle twice
These were exercises - not for public performances
The trick with singing is to be able to manage a snatch break at a comma and a full breath at a full stop - as you would if you were speaking it
(Jim)...In my song about (just!) swimming from "State to State" in Australia, I use both one breath per line of verse, and one breath per stanza for affect; but, generally, I think one breath per line is good as it marks where each line of verse begins and ends - rather than put the words on a screen, as happens at some churches.

When I am reading poetry aloud I do the same - one breath per line of verse so folks know where I am at.

On my tenor records, I occasionally practise C - g and back again, chromatically, on one breath.

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: r.padgett
Date: 13 Oct 19 - 06:54 AM

The UK folk revival in 2019

Can we all please address the title of this posting

I (we) have had enough about folk revival of the 1950/60/70 we I say again are in 2019

Constant harking back to minutiae does not help and it is current state of what is on offer ~ not what people think others should be doing

Frankly Jim you have got my goat!

Ray

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 13 Oct 19 - 07:08 AM

...but then, Ray, I have definitely seen footage from the 60s of folks involved in the revival then discussing/arguing over how things should be done.

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 13 Oct 19 - 07:08 AM

Well Ray, that is exactly what I was saying in my last post, There is no folk revival and what is being presented today under the guise of folk bears no relation to the sound or the purpose of traditional music which was an essential part of our lives. Folk music has become a niche interest discussed ad nauseum by a bunch of old people in an internet backwater.

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Oct 19 - 07:32 AM

"Can we all please address the title of this posting"
Up to now you have been quite happy to follow this line of discussion quite cheerfully and enthusiastically now it appears, having been presented with a challenge that you don't wish to rise to you cry "thread drift" - hmmm
Sorry - no takers

What is happening today is directly related to how folk song is defined and interpreted - not 'minutiae' but folk song's raison d'être
If there is a case to answer that folk song proper has been exorcised out of the present folk revival, then it is not only acceptable but is essential that it is discussed, if possible, by a friendly and intelligent exchange of ideas, no matter how firmly and passionately put.
Frankly Ray, some of the backbiting, evasion and personal insulting has 'got my goat' - it is unpleasant and totally unnecessary.

There are more than enough 'fanzine-type' threads on this forum for anybody wishing to say how lovely everything is in the garden and who their heroes are, there are precious few enabling us to discuss our gripes, disappointments and misgivings
'Definitions' has become a heavily mined 'no-go area' as has the work of MacColl and The Critics.

You didn't start this thread - Dick Miles did - so far he hasn't called 'thread drift' and I think I know his feelings well enough to believe he won't - even if he did, nobody has a right to direct the direction of any opened topic
If you don't wish to take part in this discussion please feel free not to, but please don't encroach on anybody else's right to do so
Jim

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Oct 19 - 08:12 AM

PS
Give my regards to the goat
Jim

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 13 Oct 19 - 08:17 AM

"in the US there is another revival of New Orleans style street music led by an amazing group of musicians called Tuba Skinny....positive and inclusive...I love them, especially the little "leader" Shay and the fantastic singer Erica Lewis.   This is the folk music of Black America, full of life and sometimes pathos.....Heads UP...and give it a listen!" (Akenaton)...but be inspired to practice and perform YOUR OWN culture; as I was allowed to say on the BBC's Free Thinking event at the Sage Gateshead a few years ago, "If you are not American don't Americanise, for the love of our world being multicultural."

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 13 Oct 19 - 08:35 AM

WV.....I fully understand and agree with your point, but that should not stop us appreciating other forms of traditional music.
Tuba Skinny are about more than just the material they perform. They lift the spirit and inspire emotions; I defy anyone to listen to them and keep their feet still.
Additionally they bring their music directly to the people.
In England, a banjo player called Dave Hum had the same idea RIP.

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 13 Oct 19 - 08:55 AM

Agreed - I love listening to music from other nations, too, Akenaton.

Subject: RE: the uk folk revival in 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Oct 19 - 08:58 AM

R. Padgett

The revival in 2019 -state of the union type thing obviously has some deep resonance for you.

Give us a clue....what are your opinions?

Most of us won't dismiss them out of hand.

There are a lot of people in England, and a lot of diversity. I see a lot of differences here in the West Country to what things were like in the Midlands.

I think you will find it hard to generalise about England.