BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK

Subject: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: ChanteyLass
Date: 06 Oct 19 - 08:43 PM

I'm so very sorry.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/10/06/harry-dunn-death-parents-trapped-nightmare-amid-growing-calls/

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic I
From: ChanteyLass
Date: 06 Oct 19 - 08:48 PM

I don't know where the rest of my thread title went, and I had trouble making a working link, but at least that seems okay.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic I
From: robomatic
Date: 06 Oct 19 - 09:38 PM

The Diplomat's wife should do the right thing. Return to the U.K. and go through the legal process.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic I
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 07 Oct 19 - 02:43 AM

Not a chance of this coward returning to the UK. We've seen it all before. And the US Government will simply compound this by doing nothing.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic I
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Oct 19 - 03:02 AM

"And the US Government will simply compound this by doing nothing."
Trump is quite likely to demand that any future trade deals depend on Britain desisting from perscuting this poor, innocent American citizen with 'Fake News'
Don't kid yourselves - this is the shape of things to come
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic I
From: Iains
Date: 07 Oct 19 - 07:02 AM

The diplomatic immunity claimed by 42 year old Anne Sacoolas is as a result of an agreement put in place in 1994. The special deal was put in place between the UK and the US which gives diplomats and their families based at RAF Croughton diplomatic immunity.Usually, diplomatic immunity only covers those diplomats and their dependants based in London.
Sky News reported that the alleged driver was advised to leave the UK by the American Embassy.
An attempt by Northamptonshire Police to stop her leaving was declined, and the US Embassy has confirmed she's no longer in the UK.

This evading justice by claiming diplomatic immunity is totally wrong when their actions have caused a death. It is not fair on the victim, the parents, or other UK citizens that may be killed ot maimed in the future.
Justice must be seen to be done and hiding behind a veil of immunity is not right. At the very least she should be banned from ever returning to the EU if she will not face justice.
Causing death by dangerous driving can can result in 14 years imprisonment.
This is a weasel action that will be remembered if justice is not seen to be done.
Would the reaction of the US be the same if the boot was on the other foot?

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic I
From: Mrrzy
Date: 07 Oct 19 - 09:44 AM

People in the US claim diplomatic immunity for all kinds of crimes, and get it. People everywhere claim diplomatic immunity and get it. None of that should be happening- but that's the way it is.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic I
From: Iains
Date: 07 Oct 19 - 09:48 AM

I think all extradition proceedings against Julian Assange should be halted until this matter is resolved in an English Court

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic I
From: Mrrzy
Date: 07 Oct 19 - 12:32 PM

Assange doesn't have diplomatic immunity, does he? And the driver can't *be* tried, that's the point.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic I
From: Iains
Date: 07 Oct 19 - 02:02 PM

Other countries have withdrawn diplomatic immunity in similar circumstances. Immunity was not designed to let this kind of lawbreaking go unsanctioned. No one has said Assange has immunity,the US wishes to incarcerate him for whistle blowing.
Interestingly Under the Vienna Convention, diplomatic immunity does not apply to civil actions relating to vehicular accidents,if not being used for diplomatic purposes.
That would leave her wide open to trial in an American court.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic I
From: Mrrzy
Date: 07 Oct 19 - 02:41 PM

And people have waived immunity, as when such a driver would be worse tortured at hime, maybe stoned for driving while female...

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Mossback
Date: 07 Oct 19 - 06:59 PM

Hey, Amerkuns is exempt- twas always thus.

HEIL TRUMP!!!

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Oct 19 - 02:59 AM

It never fails to amuse me how outrageous behaviour such as this are immediately watered down by a sudden attack of 'whataboutism'
THere are many incidents of the misuse of diplomatic immunity - we have yet to here any steps being taken to right the wrongs of the Salisbury attempted assassinations
But that doesn't mean we have to sort all of these out before we can discuss individual cases - or does it ?
I suspect that the most sinister aspect of cases like this is, given Donald the Div's approach to international diplomacy, incidents like this will become bargaining chips in future trade negotiations come Brexit - as will the buying and selling of offshore islands
Our leaders are really going to brush up on their Dancing to Donald's Tune skills
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Iains
Date: 08 Oct 19 - 04:31 AM

Boris Johnson:
"I must answer you directly, I do not think that it can be right to use the process of diplomatic immunity for this type of purpose.

"And I hope that Anne Sacoolas will come back and will engage properly with the processes of law as they are carried out in this country.

"That's a point that we've raised or are raising today with the American ambassador here in the UK and I hope it will be resolved very shortly.

"And to anticipate a question you might want to raise, if we can't resolve it then of course I will be raising it myself personally with the White House."

I suspect this issue is not going away

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: G-Force
Date: 08 Oct 19 - 05:00 AM

It may be a big story here in the UK, but is it being covered in the US? What do people over there think?

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: gillymor
Date: 08 Oct 19 - 08:50 AM

It is getting coverage on the national news here in the U.S. I can't speak for anyone else but I found it outrageous, how can she live with herself.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 08 Oct 19 - 10:32 AM

Cos she's an absolute cunt, end of.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Howard Jones
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 04:06 AM

Diplomatic immunity is an essential protection for diplomats worldwide. If it means that legitimate charges cannot be pursued, sometimes that is a price which has to be paid. However situations like this bring the system into disrepute. Countries can and do waive immunity, and this would seem to be an appropriate situation to do so.

Of course the honourable thing to do would have been for her not to have claimed immunity in the first place.

What especially riles us here is that the US is quick to demand extradition of UK citizens for alleged breaches of US law while refusing to yield up its own citizens. Not quite the same situation, but a close enough parallel.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 04:34 AM

As I understand it, her husband is not actually a registered diplomat.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 04:52 AM

I strongly suspect that, like the case of Nazanin Zaghawi Ratcliff, this is very much on the back burner while our serial-liar, serial-adulterer, pole-dancer-shagger, incompetent scumbag of a PM is completely consumed by engineering a no-deal crash-out BrexShit.

Preserving his bosses’ tax-dodging opportunities comes far higher up his list of priorities than looking after the well-being of British citizens.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Iains
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 06:29 AM

Backwoodsman I am afraid you are letting brexit prevent any rational thinking. Boris has already made his comments. Do you suppose he is lying? Countries can and do waive diplomatic immunity in certain circumstances. As we are supposedly a trusted ally and not a third world dictatorship I would expect a sensible response from the US. Neither the wife or husband are diplomats as such, the husband is a spy and has the courtesy of immunity extended to him,and by extension his wife. Fleeing from the scene of a crime with the public connivance of the American embassy simply brings both America and her embassy into widespread public disrepute. Morally the offender is totally in the wrong by using diplomatic immunity to flee a crime, as is the US for aiding and abetting. The person was responsible for a death. A UK court needs to make a determination as to circumstances, liability and punishment(if found guilty)

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 06:43 AM

'pole dancer shagger'

now that's what i call a floorspot...

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 07:34 AM

Wrong thread Al! ;-). :-)

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 07:57 AM

It's easy to tell when the albino greased piglet is lying.

His lips move

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Charmion
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 09:22 AM

A notorious Canadian case provides a useful precedent: Russian drink-driving diplomat goes on trial in Moscow and Russian drink-driving diplomat convicted of involuntary manslaughter

At the time of the incident, the Ottawa police could do nothing to collect evidence against the accused -- even take a breathalyzer test -- because he invoked diplomatic immunity. Fortunately, the then Russian government wished to retain a working relationship with Canada, so the accused was dismissed from the diplomatic service, charged under Russian law, tried, and convicted.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Mossback
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 03:06 PM

UN-fortunately, Trumpistan (Formerly the U.S. of A.) has no wish to retain a working relationship with any one or any thing.

Watch This Space...

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Mrrzy
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 05:49 PM

Didn't think she was drunk, just driving on the right side of the road for pretty much the whole world. Why on Earth does the UK still drive on the wrong side of the road? They must expect these accidents. I went the wrong way around roundabouts when in Ireland, luckily/ skillfully didn't hit anyone.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 07:18 PM

Australia, the Caribbean, India, South Africa, Japan and the UK drive on the left. That's almost half the world. So, as we were all here before you, why do YOU drive on the right, arsehole?

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Mrrzy
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 09:41 PM

How in the world did that handful of countries, most if not all colonized by the Brits, become half the world?

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Oct 19 - 02:47 AM

Well of course Mrrzy, for the many hundreds of millions of inhabitants of the countries that Steve mentioned, the left is the ‘right’ side of the road. When we travel overseas, we have to drive according to the rules of the country(ies) we visit, and we have to drive on the right. It’s no different to an American having to drive on the left here, and we just accept it as a minor problem to get accustomed to.

But the issue in this case isn’t so much that the woman got confused and drove on the ‘wrong’ side of the road, is it? It’s that, having done that, and having caused the death of a young man who was driving on the correct side of the road, and having promised the police that she would not claim diplomatic immunity and remain here, she did the cowardly, dishonest thing, claimed DI, and fled back to the US in order to evade prosecution, All this in the knowledge that the US never accedes to requests for the extradition of a US citizen to face criminal charges abroad.

Can you imagine Trump’s reaction if the situation was reversed?

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Oct 19 - 04:32 AM

The population of India alone out of my list is 1.4 billion, and do pray tell me when Japan (a titchy 127 million) was "colonised by the Brits." Keep digging why don't you...

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Iains
Date: 10 Oct 19 - 04:37 AM

http://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/countries-that-drive-on-the-left/

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 10 Oct 19 - 06:06 AM

Dave Hanson: Cos she's an absolute cunt, end of.

Dave H

Not necessarily. My understanding is that her initial reaction was that yes, she'd "stay and face the music" but she was pressured (basically ordered) by the US State Dept to leave, presumably to try and minimise media interest (as her husband is in the intelligence service).

It's backfired "bigly" . If she'd stayed, local media would have picked it up but it would probably not have gone national/ international. Since it was a genuine mistake she would probably have been charged with Dangerous Driving and got a large fine/ suspended sentence and maybe a driving ban.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Oct 19 - 06:33 AM

"...just driving on the right side of the road for pretty much the whole world. Why on Earth does the UK still drive on the wrong side of the road?"

So 35% of the world drives on the left. Take China out of the mix and we have a majority. I forgot Pakistan, Indonesia and Malaysia. That's a lot of "wrong" people. I suppose "whole world" is in the sense of Trump's America First and sod the rest and of your very stupidly-titled "World Series" rounders contest.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Oct 19 - 06:43 AM

Whilst I’m in complete agreement with you Steve, I think it’s only fair to point out that the ‘World Series’ doesn’t infer a world-wide competition (in the way it does with the football ‘Copa Mundial’, the World Cup) - it refers, if my information can be relied upon, to The World newspaper, which was the original sponsor of the competition.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Oct 19 - 06:44 AM

Mo':

From Country Life magazine:

"The Americans, of course, drive on the right. Initially, when it was a British colony, the inhabitants drove on the left, but following their rebellion in 1776, they forswore all practices they associated with their colonial masters. Of course, the influx of settlers from European countries who had been subjected to the dread influence of the French also helped." [The "dread influence" was that of Napoleon, who enshrined driving on the right in much of Europe).

So yanks drive on the right because their forebears were just peevish. Though it should be said that the change didn't happen all in one go.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Oct 19 - 06:50 AM

It's still a stupid title, John. At least the footie World Cup involves teams from all over the actual world. Had I sent my school rounders team over the pond to join in the yanks would never have let them! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Oct 19 - 06:52 AM

And your information is wrong in any case.

"The real reason behind the name is thanks to Barney Dreyfuss who was the owner of the Pittsburgh Pirates. In 1903, he wrote to the owner of the Boston Red Sox challenging them to a ‘World’s Championship Series’. The Pirates were the best team in the National League and the Red Sox were the best in the American League.

The games went ahead and Boston won the series five games to three. Over time, the 'World’s Championship Series' name has been shortened to the World Series and has been played every year apart from 1904 and 1994."

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Iains
Date: 10 Oct 19 - 06:53 AM

https://time.com/5696300/diplomatic-immunity-harry-dunn/

You have to admit that if the US hoped the case would remain under the radar it has backfired in a spectacular fashion

In 1974, police reported that a car driven by an attache at the Panamian Embassy ran a red light and collided with a car in which Dr. Halla Brown, a professor at George Washington University Medical School, was a passenger. Brown was paralyzed for life. The attache, uninsured, couldn't be compelled to pay damages. Some congressmen threatened to cut off aid to Panama, and eventually its government paid $100,000 toward Brown's medical expenses.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: gillymor
Date: 10 Oct 19 - 07:02 AM

Right, BWM, the New York World, a now defunct newspaper, was the original sponsor of the Fall Classical and, btw, congratulations to the Nats for closing out the mighty Dodgers with a glorious come from behind victory last night.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Mossback
Date: 10 Oct 19 - 09:17 AM

I hate to say I told you so(09 Oct 19 - 03:06 PM), but I told you so:

Briefing notes for a press conference on Wednesday told the president: “(If raised) Note, as Secretary Pompeo [the US secretary of state, Mike Pompeo] told Raab [the UK foreign secretary, Dominic Raab], that the spouse of the US government employee will not return to the United Kingdom.”"

And then (Thread Drift Alert) President Incredible Colossal Dumbfuck went on to explain:

Trump defended his decision to withdraw US troops from Syria and enable a Turkish offensive against US-backed Kurdish fighters in the region by noting that the Kurds “didn’t help us in the second world war, they didn’t help us with Normandy as an example –

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 10 Oct 19 - 09:38 AM

Trump defended his decision to withdraw US troops from Syria and enable a Turkish offensive against US-backed Kurdish fighters in the region by noting that the Kurds “didn’t help us in the second world war, they didn’t help us with Normandy as an example –

Not in Normandy, no, but they did form part of the allied OOB in the middle east, as "The Iraq Levies":

By 1942, the Iraq Levies consisted of a Headquarters, a Depot, Specialist Assyrian companies, 40 service companies and the 1st Parachute Company, which consisted of 75% Assyrian and 25% Kurd.

By 1943 the Iraq Levies' strength stood at 166 British officers controlling 44 companies: 22 Assyrian; five mixed Assyrian/Yazidi; 10 Kurdish; 4 Marsh Arabs and 3 Baluchi. Eleven Assyrian companies served in Palestine and another 4 served in Cyprus. The Parachute Company was attached to the Royal Marines Commando.

But they weren't on Omaha Beach, so I guess it doesn't count!

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: gillymor
Date: 10 Oct 19 - 10:36 AM

It looks like Steve had it right, I'd always bought into the New York World explanation but I'll blame my other gaffe, "Fall Classical" on my Kindle.

And thanks for that post, Rob Naylor.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Oct 19 - 11:00 AM

Well bugger me backwards! Another long-held illusion shattered!

https://www.rulesofsport.com/faq/why-is-the-world-series-called-the-world-series-if-only-american-teams-play.html

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Mrrzy
Date: 10 Oct 19 - 11:32 PM

Is it the case that the embassy got her out under their orders rather than her request?

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Oct 19 - 01:49 AM

Well if so, Mrrzy, that makes it even worse - again I ask, can you imagine the Tweetstorm from Herr Drumpf if the situation was reversed, and an American teenager was killed by a British diplomat’s wife driving dangerously on the wrong side of the road, and who was then whisked away back to the UK in order to avoid responsibility?

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Iains
Date: 11 Oct 19 - 11:02 AM

It has been suggested the American ambassador should be declared persona non grata unless the diplomatic immunity to the CIA spy's wife is revoked. The accident is the third   caused by personnel from US military installations driving on the wrong side of the road.
"Houston. You have a problem"

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Mrrzy
Date: 11 Oct 19 - 11:43 AM

You keep saying spy as if that mattered. The hubby's position is irrelevant to the wife's driving and to the state dept's decision to whisk her away. She killed someone accidentally, they used her immunity; that's what immunity is for. Or do you think that her hubby's job made her murder that poor kid? If not, why keep bringing up irrelevancies? The issue is the *existence* of immunity, not the fact that it was appropriately applied. Other countries protect their dips in the US and Europe and all over the world. That's what it's for.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Oct 19 - 01:23 PM

Mrrzy, under UK law, anyone who drives on the wrong side of the road and kills another driver coming the other way on the correct side of the road is guilty of the criminal offence of ‘Causing Death by Dangerous Driving’.

DI exists to prevent the wrongful prosecution and/or persecution of Diplomatic personnel and their families, and as a deterrent to them being detained as hostages. It does not, or should not exist to enable those people to engage in criminal activity and avoid responsibility for their criminality.

If I drove on the wrong side of the road in the US and killed a US citizen, I would be prosecuted under US law - absolutely rightfully. If you drove on the wrong side of the road in the UK and killed a UK citizen, you would be prosecuted under UK law - absolutely rightfully.

Why should this woman be able to evade responsibility for her criminal activity - which you and I would, under similar circumstances, be subject to prosecution over - simply because her husband works for the US government?

THAT is the issue.

Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Iains
Date: 11 Oct 19 - 03:21 PM

The issue is not simply cutting and running but the US abusing an agreement extending diplomatic immunity to spies and their dependents under SOFAS agreements. This is not diplomatic immunity sensu stricto.
The United States has been party to multilateral and bilateral agreements addressing the status of U.S. armed forces while present in a foreign country. These agreements, commonly referred to as Status of Forces Agreements (SOFAs), generally establish the framework under which U.S. military personnel operate in a foreign country, addressing how the domestic laws of the foreign jurisdiction shall be applied toward U.S. personnel while in that country.
Under similar circumstances the US has a history of leaning on countries to revoke diplomatic immunity in order to bring charges.

In the vernaciular you (the US)are taking the piss, and I do not like it.