The current state of folk music in UK

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Nov 19 - 08:43 AM

Just transcribd \Sheeps Crook as follows)

Loud synthesizes mush overlaid with heavy rhythm
Heere's my sheep's croooook and black dooog I'l leave them behind
slight unnecessary gal with smus and heavy rhythm
Here's my baaaag and my budger I'll give it to you (as above)
Heres my sheeps crooook .... etc
(acc to lousd to make out bedinning of next line Laurel ....unkind
All overlauiid with mush and rythm

How one earth is someone wh doesn't know the song supposed to understand that ?

Does it honestly sound like a tale of a sad rural worker lamenting a betrayed love to you ?
Jim

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Iains
Date: 15 Nov 19 - 08:38 AM

We have an excellent lecture on accompaniment by the great instrumentalist, Peggy Seeger
She began, "The first thing to decide when considering accompanying a narrative song is, "Is it necessary"
The fact that our folk tradition in England is overwhelmingly unaccompanied suggests very few are

That is a subjective opinion. There are other explanations that make more sense in my opinion

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Nov 19 - 08:27 AM

" run and moderated by decent folk music aficionados would be a site for "
Are you reeally sinking to deliberately distorting what I say Dave
I was referring to the internet in general, as should have been obvious by my reference to creepy-creep paedos

"Still your opinion Jim - "
Based on the fact that, although I have known the song since it was recorded from Caroline Hughes in the early sixties I had trouble recognising the words and following the plot
It is your opinion that it is a narrative performance

We have an excellent lecture on accompaniment by the great instrumentalist, Peggy Seeger
She began, "The first thing to decide when considering accompanying a narrative song is, "Is it necessary"
The fact that our folk tradition in England is overwhelmingly unaccompanied suggests very few are
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Nov 19 - 08:10 AM

I'm not sure why you think a live performance site for sharing folk music, run and moderated by decent folk music aficionados would be a site for "bleeping semi-literate half-dozen misspelt-word messages", Jim. Am I not explaining myself very well? I envisage a site where folk performers and anyone who enjoys folk simply log on and, if performing, use a webcam to perform their "floor spot". The organisers would manage the site and ensure everyone gets a chance then privately give the performers constructive feedback.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 15 Nov 19 - 06:22 AM

'The delivery is a total distraction from the narrative and the delivvery is totally devoid of interpretation'
Jim

Still your opinion Jim - which you are quite within your rights to hold. Doesn't make it fact though as I am of the opposite opinion

Let's agree to disagree again.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Nov 19 - 06:10 AM

"There is nothing passive about this forum for instance"
This is a forum hwre ideas are echanged - a little different than bleeping semi-literate half-dozen misspelt-word messages and very different from staring at a screen to enjoy folk song rather than sharing it face to face and going off to talk about it later
"Ewan welcomed new technology"
He most certainly did and used it brilliantly in the theatrical Festival of Fools but I dn't ever recall him using it to accompany narrative ballads
The internet was not the dangerous, even lethal place it has now become when he said what he said
Go look out the bullying suicides or the rapist creepy-creeps kids have to contend with now
Jim

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Nov 19 - 05:59 AM

"Jim that is in your opinion."
The delivery is a total distraction from the narrative and the delivvery is totally devoid of interpretation
Jim

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 15 Nov 19 - 05:15 AM

'"but I don't really see how Banks of Green Willow could be made non narrative. It tells a story, doesn't it?"
So Does Sheep Crook and Black Dog" but that "Rock on Shepherd" version that was put up as good has completely drowned the narrative and turned the song into electric soup totally devoid of interpretation'

Jim that is in your opinion. In my opinion the words are perfectly understandable, have lost non of their meaning and the musical arrangement both enhance the song and makes it more likely to be heard by people out of our small circle of folk music enthusiasts. I have listened to this version many times as the music makes it more enjoyable than the original for me. We just have different tastes - your electric soup is my interesting soundscape :-)

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Nov 19 - 04:45 AM

I don't think anyone does, Jim, but I think you are being unnecessarily wary of online communications. There is nothing passive about this forum for instance. There is no reason why the internet cannot be used to share talents and live performances much like folk clubs do. The issue could be keeping the number of participants to a manageable level! As well as a channel to share live performances it could also contain a chat box for personal conversations and a 'panel' to give constructive advice. If it was set up correctly the moderators could veto cover versions of Buddy Holly to their hearts content :-)

Correct me if I am wrong but I am sure you once said that Ewan welcomed new technology. Imagine what could have been done with the critics group given the worldwide nature of such an online forum.

Don't get me wrong here. I am not advocating that online clubs should replace live venues. But as an enhancement and as a way of getting more people involved, I cannot envisage a better way forward.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 15 Nov 19 - 04:40 AM

Al - you should really seem out some of Butterworth's music - he composed some sublime pieces before, as Jim said, he was killed in WW1. If he had survived I am sure he would have been up there with Vaughan Williams and Elgar in the pantheon of great composers.

There is a wonderful, evocative film doing the rounds of small cinemas and folk festivals about his life and love of folk music which is very well worth seeing

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Nov 19 - 04:19 AM

Nick Can tell you more about the English Travellers
The Irish Travellers tradition has been rescued to a point by their own organisation, Pavee Point and Limerick University has done a magnificent job in restoring the instrumental heritage in co-operation with a couple of families, notably, The Dunns of Limerick - they were street performers
The Legendary Piper, Johnny Doran was a regular visitor to this area and he is now remembered (or was - not sure that it's still happening) by an annual 'Johnny Doran Week-end' at Spanish Point
The Travellers I've come across seem to have picked up the ball again, but I don't think they're there yet
The Limerick Uni people have talked about a Travellers culture website as part of their World Music Department, using our collection as a base - I don't know if anything will come of that - fingers crossed
I know the collectors Collective has made some efforts to involve Travellers, but I have some serious reservations about them and their objectives
I only know that, the more I prod around researching our old songs, the more Travellers feature in their preservation

As far as electronic development, I have no objection to its use in preserving the songs - I wish we hadn't had to lug around a heavy Nagra that was worth more thna our car, instead of the incredibly usable equipment now available
My objection is whan it is used to change what is essentially acoustic music
Likewise I see no reason why the internet can't be used to distribute recordings of traditional music in order that they may be learned, but when it's presented as a welcome alternative to live performance, that sets the alarm bells ringing on several front
Our music is basically social - a sharing of talents among people rather than a one-way-street declaration of how good a performer you are - if we loose that I believe we lose the main function of the music
I don't want our future generations to be passive recipients of this music and watch them turn into sedentary, non-creating cabbages - does anybody ?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Nov 19 - 04:14 AM

Is that how you really see anyone who does not comply with your view of folk music, Jim? "The Enemy"? Do you genuinely see things you like as "exquisitely listenable" while anything not to your taste is "electric soup totally devoid of interpretation"? Such provocative language should, in my opinion, be reserved for populist politicians. Here we are all on the same side. I suspect everyone agrees on what folk is for 80% of any given examples.

But, as has been said before, this is not about the past. It is about now and the future. Given that the world is massively different to when the folk revival was in its heyday, how do we ensure that the tradition survives while "new folk" is given the chance to grow and flourish? Given that you are no longer interested in folk clubs, Jim, what do you see as the way forward?

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Iains
Date: 15 Nov 19 - 03:32 AM

Their singing tradition wa reasonably intact in July in 1973 and they were still active in making songs
We didn't go back till 18 months late to find that had stopped completely; everybody had a portable television they had been ably to buy in Woolworth's
Presumably the advent of mass produced 12 volt TVs came at a price that was attractive to many!

From this the next logical question has to be:
If the tradition stopped in the mid 70s, has it hit a brick wall and become a fossilized genre, or has it transmuted and is in fact alive and well.
Cheap cassette players also became widely available at this same time (70s). This would have been another nail in the tradition's coffin.
Consumer electronics exploded in the 70s with the Japanese leading the onslaught.(sony and akai to name but two) This put means of recording and transmittal within the reach of everyone.
There has been much emphasis on what folk was then but continual argument as to what it is now, in terms of it's creation and continuation.
I hate to say it but you have danced around a response to this question Jim (and I do not say this provocatively - Both I, and I suspect many others, would be interested to hear your views on this)

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Nov 19 - 03:22 AM

Nick , the sad thing is that the respect and trust was lost by the travellers , it is also sad that kennedy did what he did for a pittance, and that the good work that he did [he collected a vast amount and collected from no9n copoperative geniuses such as neildh boyle] of material should have been cheapened by his dubbing of himself and his tacky cheap home produced bootlegs , it sows a lack of respect for the material and for people, .

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Nov 19 - 03:11 AM

"but I don't really see how Banks of Green Willow could be made non narrative. It tells a story, doesn't it?"
So Does Sheep Crook and Black Dog" but that "Rock on Shepherd" version that was put up as good has completely drowned the narrative and turned the song into electric soup totally devoid of interpretation
At least Butterworth turned the ballad into an exquisitely listenable piece of orchestral music before he went off and got blown to pieces in the Tranches
I know which LEGACY I'd rather be remembered for

Herga was always a good, reliable Traditionally-based club Dick - glad to hear it's still flying the flag when oso many others have sold out to the enemy
Jim

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Nov 19 - 01:49 AM

first hand experience, last monday I was the booked guest at herga folk club ,i had a great night lots of trad songs, no buddy holly, one or two contemporary songs in trad style, an excellent night of songs.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 09:34 PM

Steeleye Span made a fortune. ... they'll be pleased to hear that.

Never heard of George Butterworth - but I don't really see how Banks of Green Willow could be made non narrative. It tells a story, doesn't it?

went to a folk club tonight. About half the songs were trad. three of the singers unaccompanied. I don't see what the fuss is about.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 08:45 PM

Sorry Nick
I meant to say I'll respond to your fascinating points tomorrow - exhausted after a night of rubbish on television

Jim B
I don't know if Jane Turriff's song was Americana - I didn't think it was very good and I liked her rendition of Tifties Annie with harmonium accompaniment even less
Pity - she's a fine singer, with some stunningly beautiful things to say about her songs
Jim

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 08:40 PM

"The drawback if I understand you correctly, is that travellers would be the only authentic source left
From the singers we recorded, there was very little sign that they had learned much from the media - they weren't great radio listeners
They had large families and tended not to spend too much time indoors
They had an almost pure oral Tradition, the most convincing example being the 'forbidden' 'Maid and the Palmer' which had been pased on orally though John Reilly's Family
Mikeen described how strange groups of Travellers would meet up to swap their songs and many settled singers tokld us how they looked forward to learning their songs songs, particularly in North Clare

Their singing tradition wa reasonably intact in July in 1973 and they were still active in making songs
THey would sing for us, we'd go to the pub and at closing tim we'd go back to the sire and sit around their fire (often made of wooden pallets, and they'd sing, tell stories, talk and sometimes do deals
At te end of summer that year we decided to have a break and devise a plan of work
We didn't go back till 18 months late to find that had stopped completely; everybody had a portable television they had been ably to buy in Woolworth's

I do find your alienation approach to folksong interesting if not welcome Raggy and Im grateful for your claiming it to be "21st century" has convinced mt that the folk scene has well ant truly slithered down the tubes
To you really really welcome our youth being turned into screen staring zombies ??
Not my family I hope

A you somewhat insultingly keep repeating the same thing as if I hadn't responded to it a dozen times I intend to regard you as not being there, especially as you have yet tio respond to a single point I have made
That's just bad manners
Jim

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 05:58 PM

Waulking Back To Happiness ~ Helen Shapiro

Rufus Thomas - Waulking the Dog

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Iains
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 05:44 PM

A vaguely related theme about work songs dying out in the 50's.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waulking_song

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t886nGdlRps&list=PLnOSH5j1sQh-RonDbQ0h7ryDaixFdoqdb&index=9
A very interesting comment right at the end of the clip:
Capercaille recorded a Waulking song thar made it into the top 40

For me this example above makes the point that definitions within the genre need to be fluid.
It is a work song that lasted much longer than shantys.
It is undoubtedly a folk song
Related songs have become pop hits (The "Sky Waulking Song" is from their album Nadurra released in 2000, sung in Gaelic)

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 05:34 PM

I'm still in the deep end! That post was supposed to go on the other thread about Travellers and their songs. Oh well you've got it twice. Let joy be unconfined.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 05:32 PM

A bit controversial I am afraid is the mess that Peter Kennedy left behind him. This has affected the travellers attitude to singing their songs not only to collectors but I am afraid to each other.

While collecting in Dorset, I was on the permanent site in Piddletrentide. I met the Price Family who travelled with Peter Ingram, and latterly Carrie Warren, Caroline Hughes daughter.
In a nutshell when asked to sing, the family said that they did not need to, and produced Peter Kennedy's tape of Caroline which they duly played.
When asked to sing other songs they knew, Carrie said the would need to be paid so much per song, because they were not going to be made a fool of again. Sheep Crook and Black dog had been recorded by Steeleye Span, and they saw that somebody was making a fortune out of their old songs.
These are our memories I was told. I know all the arguments, and I personally had to follow my heart. I had no money to pay as a newly married 29 year old with 5 stepchildren. However at least I managed to give one of my informants enough money to pay his poll tax, even if I didn't pay my own. The morality and responsibility of the role of collector has never sat easy with me, and I still have no answers today. Danny Price (on the camp) put the other view to me. If you take a song and make 10 thousand pounds good luck to you. Talk about being chucked in at the deep end.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 04:54 PM

When Jane Turriff sang her cowboy songs, was that Americana?

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 03:42 PM

Again, like others, I am in full agreement with Iains.

Times have changed, our ways of commumicating with each other and the world at large have changed.

The way we disseminate information and knowledged has changed.

For example. I am sitting in a small bar on the west coast of Ireland watching a football match being played 200 miles away, in the corner of the bar is a small television showing another football match 500 miles away. In a few seconds people in America 3000 miles away will be able to read what I have typed.

My Grandmother would be dumbfounded by this.

The way folk music is disseminated is also PROFOUNDLY affected by modern communication. The way folk music is LEARNED is also profoundly affected by this modern communication.

We no longer sit round a fire to glean this knowledge, it is at our fingertips.

For ****'s sake, even Carroll has made his research available on line.

Hellooooooooooooo this is the 21st Century!!!!!!

Oh by the way, every time I visit a folk club or session in England it is dynamic, vibrant with, I find, loads of superb new songs adding to the dynamics and vibrancy.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 03:23 PM

My loose definition is recogninable as folk

So is mine, Jim. It still does not resolve the issue of someone who neither attends not cares about folk clubs pontificating about the current state of folk.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 03:18 PM

Great merciful heavens! I’m in broad agreement for the second time!

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Iains
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 03:10 PM

The universal and timeless nature of our songs made them still relevant and the forms used to create them were as usable as they ever where to create new songs (which could never become folk unless a new oral tradition was established allowing the populace to absorb them into their creative culture)

I think I can half understand what you are saying. The drawback if I understand you correctly, is that travellers would be the only authentic source left. But to accept that I would need to be sure that they have no radios, TV,internet or any other device that plays, records music,in order the traditional "derivation" was uncorrupted and unpolluted. That argument may well have held true in the 50s and 60s, but it is increasingly difficult to be totally divorced from being battered by a constant stream of music in today's world- you cannot even buy a supermarket loaf without an earbashing.
To me this means that traditional means of creation and mutation have essentially ceased, modern creation of folk is by wordsmiths and tunesmiths, the modern world is too busy and too full of distractions for the old ways to survive, If you can accept that the words and tunes change as part of the folk process then why is it such a problem to accept the means of composition/generation have changed. With electronic transmission available for both music and lyrics it is unlikely modern folk will mutate with transmission.
In a nutshell I would suggest modern folk is just a transition from the old traditional folk and this transition was driven by changes in the modern world. So old and new in reality are one and the same, with the new constrained/driven/created by the impact of the modern world.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 03:05 PM

""loose definition" (your phrase Jim)"
My loose definition is recogninable as folk - from what you've described - yours isn't - nor is much else here - in fact its loose enough to be totally unrelated to folk
Any definition must directly relate to the recognised article and be agreed on by enough people to make it a definition
The non purist traditional fok scene was tacitly agreed by the overwhelming mahjority of those thousands of clubs on the scene - yours appears to be solely your own - not a definition

How can you describe a club scene of 1386 clubs (your words) as either surviving or thriving

"I was being diplomatic, of course an agreement of what constitutes folk has totally disappeared
We're not even allowed to discuss it without whines of "Oh no, not that again"

"how is that justifiable please?"
The public face of folk song was always the club - we relied on them for our entertainment, development of ability and our continuing education
Without them, folk song would have remained on the book shelves and locked away in archives
The clubs wouldn't have had a reason fro existence without the raw material - the songs
Can't see that need much justifying
Jim

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 03:00 PM

Iains has just gone up several notches in my view. I could even see myself buying the man a pint if our paths ever crossed.

A much more measured attitude than given by some.


Actually for some, read one.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 02:21 PM

Folk, by my own "loose definition" (your phrase Jim) is not just surviving but thriving. Many more people agree than disagree. You, by your own admission, Jim, neither visit folk clubs not care about them.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: r.padgett
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 02:14 PM

"The clubs and the songs have to be indivisble if are both to survive"

Interesting comment Jim ~ how is that justifiable please?

Ray

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 02:13 PM

Jim - after reading that, I'd debate what to me could be contradictions in your post..
But I need to get on with cooking dinner...

However, it's encouraging and constructive to see your use of a word like 'seems',
because nowt winds up folks like reading
what seems like opinion stated as dogmatic facts...

For instance..

One or more of your points will likely be met with

"No .. that's not so, that's wrong.. Thinking something is so, doesn't make it so..."

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 01:47 PM

"I’m in broad agreement with Iains.
What seems to be missing here is the fact that in England at least our song traditions had died and we inherited what had been left behind
The universal and timeless nature of our songs made them still relevant and the forms used to create them were as usable as they ever where to create new songs (which could never become folk unless a new oral tradition was established allowing the populace to absorb them into their creative culture)
The revival was based on listening to songs that shared similar sounds and structures - the unique sound of 'folk' (whether the songs weer 'folk' or not
That provided a foundation, leaving a degree of room to experiment
That seems to be what has disappeared ffrom today's scene and has been raplaced by "we no longer what folk song is"
That is proving not to be sustainable and folk song is being lost in the process
The clubs and the songs have to be indivisble if are both to survive
Jim

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 01:44 PM

"I knew who you meant, pfr!"

BWM - a delayed reaction thinking about that,
and I had to check in a panic I hadn't accidently submitted the post I was witholding from last night..

phew...!!!

but I still think it would have beeen funny,
though too easily taken the wrong way...

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 01:39 PM

My wicked bone aint quite what it used to be when I was younger...
but still some life left in it when needed...

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 01:34 PM

I knew who you meant, pfr!
And I was kidding about being wicked - I don’t have a wicked bone in my body! ;-)

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 01:24 PM

BWS..???

BWM...

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 01:23 PM

BWS - No.. not at all..

I don't come to mudcat seeking to side with 'friends',
or to dismiss and ignore 'enemies'...

A good idea is a good idea.. a sound analysis is a sound analysis, whoever posts it...

That to me at least, is positive in recognising our common shared interests and goals...

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 01:15 PM

On this one, very rare, occasion, I’m in broad agreement with Iains.
Am I very wicked? :-)

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 01:14 PM

pfr - I set 'em up you knock 'em down :-)

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 01:12 PM

I like liquorice in a bread roll, with plenty of butter, but like some folk music, it's not to everyone's taste

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 12:48 PM

"Anyway back to the topic....."

I prefer Crunchie bars, or mint Aero...

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 12:46 PM

"I find many (though not all of course) folk rock renditions of songs more emotive and meaningful than unaccompanied (or minimally accompanied)"
Our (English and Scots) folk song traditions are stories with tunes (not fully the case in the U.S.)
That blasted out/drowned out 'Sheep-crook' certainly produces an emotion in me (only fulfill-able if there's a blazing fire in the room) but it's certainly not the gentle bitterness conveyed by the text
The rendition has to relate to the text = surely
For me the greatest pleasure of folk song is to pop one in your mouth and feel what it tastes like - I can go to the cow-shit composers for interpretations of the tune
Jim

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 12:43 PM

Anyway back to the topic.....

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 12:41 PM

I like fig rolls. Must be why I produce a lot of shit :-D

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 12:35 PM

Swiss ;-)

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 12:31 PM

Guest JoeG:

I had to sell the Rolls to keep putting gigs on

Ham & Tomato; Egg & Cress; Cheese & Tomato; Fish Paste? Which was your best seller? ;-)

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Iains
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 12:21 PM

Too many trying to be objective about a subjective subject. There is no single   torch bearer as the bastion of the ultimate truth. There is not even agreement on a working definition to act as a starting point.
There is even a constant confusion between folk and folk clubs.
In my opinion Dave the gnome has a usable definition of folk than spans the entire genre. I get the impression that most contributors are reasonably happy with that definition. Unless there is some kind of majority agreement then discussion of the genre's health,or impending demise becomes kinda pointless. We need to move on from the apples and oranges discussion.
    Back in the day Joe average rarely had an instrument so it is hardly surprising that unaccompanied singing was regarded as normal.
Today anyone can buy a guitar.There was also a time, before the spread of TV, that singing in a pub around a piano was relatively commonplace. The fare on offer was eclectic. If we can accept that folk music is continually expanding and not pickled in aspic from around 1900AD then it must be axiomatic that if the primary function is entertainment(rather than torture) then musical accompaniment of whatever kind has the ability to lift the performance and widen it's appeal. If it was not primarily entertainment it would be restricted to bathrooms,where the acoustics are generally better

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Nov 19 - 12:09 PM

When i sit on the bog I ask Alexa to play random names that come to mind,
names I've probably not listened to for decades, if ever..
But names I've noticed here in a thread, or linked from it,
or even recommended by Amazon emails..

Today it was Barry Dransfield..
I've eaten a lot of stodge this week so sat there for a good 4 or 5 tracks...

Now, I immediatly liked his voice, and the sound of his recordings.
I thought one was very good and added it to my playlist.
Others washed over me a bit,
One seemed a bit too old fashioned and dull 'comic song'..

However, my radar plotted him as definitely folk sounding,
if not real trad folk...

That's just one example of how I respond to the music...

I'd like my voice to be as good as his, but I'd probably not do the songs I heard today,
and certainly not the jigs...

Different tastes and styles...