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The current state of folk music in UK
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: GUEST,Pseudonymous Date: 05 Nov 19 - 09:23 AM Hello All I agree about the Unthanks, but when they were on the folk proms, hardl anybody on Mudcat had a good word to say on them, and some comments focussed on their weight not their music. Pardon is relevant as he is a 'case study' from a former time which is used as a basis for comparison with the current state of music. I had looked at previous material on Pardon on Mudcat and considered starting a thread, as Pardon and the journalism and other literature etc framing him for public consumption seem to me to provide the basis for an interesting case study. To me, this is an elderly single man, living in quite a large farmhouse who occupied some of his leisure time working out tunes on a melodion, and remembered a lot of what look to me like Victorian pop songs which he believed his maternal grandfather had learned from broadsides. He stated in an early interview that he did not regard his material as folk, folk being something they did at school. He got taken up by a group of enthusiasts and entrepreneurs, copyrighted, presented as coming from the lowest ag lab level despite the plain educational achievements of his family and their place on the electoral register at time when there was still a propertly qualification. He gets presented as an expert on 'the tradition', a 'source singer', a person able to identify what is folk and what his not, as if he is even an expert on what the tradition is, he is subjected to all sorts of third rate qualitative research which itself portrays how not to do it, he gets a booking agent (albeit the gigs were not always easy to obtain, and I am interested in the ideological framework within which all of this takes place. It isn't just that people put in opinions as if they were 'facts', stuff that doesn't fit the required image seems to get left out. But I am sorry, and it was a good idea to open op a separate thread. Jim Carroll winds himself up. |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: GUEST,Starship Date: 05 Nov 19 - 09:31 AM Twelve year old thread resurrected: 'Walter Pardon - which song first?' |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: punkfolkrocker Date: 05 Nov 19 - 09:50 AM Pseud - that sounds like a synopsis for a movie satirising fad hungry music industry / showbiz, and hack academics & critics... In 1954 it could have been a gentle Ealing comedy.. In 2019 a darker tragi-comedy... I'd watch both versions on streaming... |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Howard Jones Date: 05 Nov 19 - 11:10 AM I think that, as always, Brian has summed things up very well. I don't think anyone would claim that the folk scene is as healthy as it once was, but neither is it as moribund as Jim would have us believe. There are certainly fewer folk folk clubs, but these have been at least in part replaced by other types of venue, and these are not all passive "bums on seats" but many allow for participation. I agree with Brian that the familiar folk club format may no longer be how people want to enjoy folk music. There is a sizeable body of young performers who, as Brian describes, are full of both enthusiasm and respect for the music. However they are doing things their own way, and if those are not always what the older generation would approve of perhaps that is no bad thing. I am confident the music is in good hands. One thing I find sobering is that at least one younger musician of my acquaintance regards me and others of my generation as genuine links in the chain of the tradition. I have always regarded myself as a revival singer and musician, and distinguished what I do from the source singers who were the "real thing". But because I have heard Walter Pardon, Fred Jordan and others sing and played in sessions with Oscar Woods and Reg Reader, because I have heard Peter Bellamy, Tony Rose and Swan Arcade sing live, he regards me as a direct link to all that. I used to go to listen to the "old boys", and now he sees me as one of them. That is quite a responsibility, and not one I feel I deserve. But that is what folk music is, it is passed from one generation to the next by whatever means possible. |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: GUEST,JoeG Date: 05 Nov 19 - 11:20 AM Two recent projects that suggest to me that the situation for traditional folk song isn't as bad as some fear - whatever the state of folk clubs (The Jon Boden webpage has some odd technical text at the top but works fine!). As stated in the review of Songs From The Seasons, Joshua recorded a song each week - I can't find these on line now but next time I see him I will ask if he plans to republish them Jon Boden - A Folk Song A Day Joshua Burnell Songs From The Seasons |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: GUEST,Derrick Date: 05 Nov 19 - 11:34 AM My take on the final paragraph of Howards post at 11-10 is does it matter if you are the authentic article or a revival singer. He was inspired and came to folk music by the revival,and became a singer of the songs of the old singers. As a the result songs are still sung, if the revival had not happened they would have survived only in dusty collections. The old singers only knew the songs because they were in the right place when their forebears sang them. The songs and tunes will only survive if sombody plays or sings them be it in a folk club,a pub session or any other place where people hear them.The singer who regards him as one of old singers is singing the songs himself and hopefully will inspire some of those who follow him to keep the sons going |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Vic Smith Date: 05 Nov 19 - 11:36 AM Howard wrote:- I used to go to listen to the "old boys", and now he sees me as one of them. That is quite a responsibility, and not one I feel I deserve. But that is what folk music is, it is passed from one generation to the next by whatever means possible. Jim Causley, one of the times that he was staying with us after playing at our club said over breakfast (well, something like...) Your generation took great inspiration from the wonderful traditional singers that so many of you heard and met and talked to. It makes me jealous to realise how much you admire them. Good question, Jim! |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: GUEST,Derrick Date: 05 Nov 19 - 11:37 AM Not only the sons but the songs as well |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: GUEST,Observer Date: 05 Nov 19 - 01:13 PM Well what did I hear at the "Folk Festival" between last Thursday and Sunday? In the main it was what I'd describe as "Americana" Then "contemporary" singer/songwriter contributions 1960s "pop music" Very, very little was delivered in concert or in sessions that one could describe as "Folk Music". As I said the Festival IS promoted as a "Folk Festival". |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Brian Peters Date: 05 Nov 19 - 01:19 PM Hello Mr Sandman - I quite agree about Gemma Khawaja, and Jack Rutter's stuff sounds good too from what I've heard. I'm sure you're right that it's much harder to make a living from folk music than it was 40 years ago, and many of the young musicians I know certainly do have as many strings to their bow as they possibly can. I'm not going to go into possible reasons for that decline, but it doesn't strike me as surprising given how much the world has changed since the the 1960s, and the particular circumstances that made folk music a prominent counter-cultural movement back in those days. I remembered what I was going to say last night - again small-scale anecdotal evidence for what's going on at ground level, aside from my own professional engagements which I'm way too modest to boast about (winking emoji). My wife and I, when we're at home, attend two informal monthly sessions. One is at he Gaslamp in Manchester, where a singaround takes place in an acoustically-excellent tiled basement room, the repertoire is predominantly traditional with plenty of choruses, and the expectation is that people will sing unaccompanied. The other is at Glossop Labour Club, where singers and instrumentalists gather to share a more eclectic mix of a few trad songs, a few songwriter pieces, maybe a bit of Americana, a recitation or two, and some (generally English) tunes. The more traditional one is the more likely to feature younger singers, though last time I went to Glossop there were some recently-converted and very enthusiastic young shanty singers. At both sessions the standard ranges from excellent to a bit less excellent, and there are sometimes one or two phone cribsheets in evidence. Despite the quite marked difference in repertoire, what both sessions have in common is that they're an opportunity for musical friends and acquaintances to get together and share the kind of songs they like, in a very informal atmosphere, helped along by the odd glass of intoxicant. I really enjoy both - it's the kind of event that's very definitely part of my understanding of 'folk music'. Vic asked why we "are always saying, 'No no. Don't listen to me; listen to.... and then you reel off the names of the generation that inspired you." We do this because we're enthusiasts and we want to share the objects of our enthusiasm with others. It doesn't mean we think we're rubbish ourselves. I love watching the expressions when I play a class a recording of Phil Tanner singing 'Young Henry Martin' or Sam Larner chortling his way through 'Butter and Cheese and All'. Ry Cooder always used exactly the words Vic quotes, and no-one thought he meant that he was rubbish. Lastly, since Pseudonymous has brought up Walter Pardon again, I have to refute a couple of suggestions. Walter's repertoire clearly didn't consist of 'Victorian pop songs', not least because a number of them predated Victoria's reign. Many were certainly popular broadsides, but is calling 'Van Dieman's Land' a 'pop song' in any way useful? He acquired his reputation on the folk scene because of his extensive and interesting repertoire, his skill in singing it, and the sense that he might be the last of his kind. His views on the nature and history of his songs are of great interest not only because he was by all accounts an intelligent and articulate man, but also because folksong academics have often been very good a deciding for themselves what constituted 'folk', without asking the very people who had been singing it for the last couple of hundred years. I've no idea who is alleged to have copyrighted his songs, and as for a 'booking agent', when I saw him (on more than one occasion) he was being driven around by the Watersons and sharing their gigs. Methinks here's too much 'ideological framework' being erected here, but Martin and Norma are still around, as is Bill Leader (who recorded WP), and of course our own Jim Carroll knew him pretty well, so there are plenty of people to ask. Oh, and as usual I agree with Howard Jones! |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Brian Peters Date: 05 Nov 19 - 01:58 PM Ah, I see that the Walter Pardon thread is up and running. I promise not to so as much as breathe his name on Joe's thread again. |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: GUEST,ottery Date: 05 Nov 19 - 02:08 PM Jim Martin, thank you for the link to casbar.co.uk - I think it may have been me you were responding to. This thread is so long it's hard to go back and find anything once you've passed over it once. Enjoyed reading Brian Peters's posts. |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: GUEST,JoeG Date: 05 Nov 19 - 02:20 PM You're forgiven Brian :-) |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Howard Jones Date: 05 Nov 19 - 02:33 PM Vic, Jim Causley's comments are pretty much what my friend says. I think the reason I am so reluctant to accept it is that I discovered folk music (almost by accident), I didn't grow up with it all around me as part of a living tradition. I don't feel I can claim to be a "folk singer" in the same way the term applies to those who were part of that tradition, what I am is a singer of folk songs. I feel there is a genuine distinction to be made. However that is from the privileged position of having been around at the same time as those "old boys", and for those who now don't have that opportunity perhaps we are the next best thing. I still find it difficult to think of myself in those terms though. |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Jack Campin Date: 05 Nov 19 - 02:48 PM I guess "Observer" can't be in Scotland - where as far as I know the only folk festival last weekend was Denholm. The entire membership of the session that would otherwise have happened at Stow that Sunday went to it, and I doubt any of them COULD have done Americana or 1960s pop if you'd asked. (I wasn't there - working). |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: The Sandman Date: 05 Nov 19 - 04:58 PM guest ottery, here Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: The Sandman - PM Date: 03 Nov 19 - 02:33 PM however in scotland, i am sure it is more like ireland, and of course nobody mentions Wales[ can anyone update us on the forgotten province |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: GUEST,Allan Conn Date: 05 Nov 19 - 05:32 PM I couldn't get to Denholm as I am down in Yorkshire at the moment but as far as concerts go it very much did involve folk bands. Malinky on the Saturday night and Northern Company on the Friday. Can't comment on the sessions but they generally tend to be more mixed |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: GUEST,Joe G Date: 05 Nov 19 - 07:16 PM Walthamstow Observer? |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: The Sandman Date: 06 Nov 19 - 02:48 AM I realise how lucky i was to have met played sang and got to know all the tradtional musicians and singers from a period of 1968 onwards, these include julia clifford reg reeder isobel sutherland oscar wilde,oscar woods, billy bennington bob lewis fred jordan, my thanks to all of them sorry if this sounds a bit like widdecombe fair. |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: GUEST Date: 06 Nov 19 - 06:14 AM Oscar Wilde ? |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Vic Smith Date: 06 Nov 19 - 06:43 AM GUEST asked - Oscar Wilde ? Yes! Have you never heard his wonderful interpretation of that great traditional ballad, "I can resist everything except temptation." It's magical. |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: The Sandman Date: 06 Nov 19 - 07:42 AM “You don't love someone for their looks, or their clothes, or for their fancy car, but because they sing a song only you can hear.” |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: GUEST,Pseudonymous Date: 06 Nov 19 - 07:55 AM Nagh, for me it has to be the cooking. |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: GUEST,Pseudonymous Date: 06 Nov 19 - 07:56 AM And a sense of humour. |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Vic Smith Date: 06 Nov 19 - 08:10 AM Dick - “You don't love someone for their looks, or their clothes, or for their fancy car, but because they sing a song only you can hear.” |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: r.padgett Date: 06 Nov 19 - 11:09 AM Looks like the current UK scene is streets behind in televised folk artists ~ although guitarist over the last 50 years seem ok, as do the American likes Dylan, Paxton and Paul Simon etc I suspect that BBC and the likes have little on Eric Bogle, Nic Jones, Tony Rose, Pete Coe, Dave Burland, John Kirkpatrick and other solo singers/musicians that is on film, what a great pity I love the Scottish/Irish stuff on "Port" with Julie and Mairead and the Gaelic stuff, likewise Celtic Connections and Transatlantic sessions with Phil Cunningham and Aly Baine but it aint English folk music Ray |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: GUEST Date: 06 Nov 19 - 11:20 AM 'Julie and Mairead' Muirreann nic Amhlaoibh? |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: punkfolkrocker Date: 06 Nov 19 - 11:35 AM Live music content of all sorts on mainstream UK TV is drastically less than the 1980s / early 90s... |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: GUEST,Pseudonymous Date: 06 Nov 19 - 12:34 PM Bain and Cunningham. Agree, not English but is UK. WOnderful |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: GUEST,crumbly Date: 06 Nov 19 - 12:44 PM what do you want your 'folk' on Telly for? Surely the main idea is to get out and DO it & not watch a lot of three chord plonkers on the box? |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Jim Carroll Date: 06 Nov 19 - 01:35 PM "Jim Carroll winds himself up." Jost got back from a thee day break of spectacularly good films and two nights of unsurpassed and singing and music by people who do it for the love of it to this shit It makes me realise that the maing thing that's missing on the scene today is the ability to disagree without discussions degenerating to schoolyard level Was that really necessary Pseud - nobody alse seems to have thought so ? Walter and his ilk needs to be banished to another thread in order to discuss today's situation We went to a hour-handed recital of singing and music last night where I counted the names of seven classic performers - Willie Clancy, Seamus Ennis, Johnny Doran, Elizabeth Cronin, Joe Heaney, Junior Crehan and Margaret Barry, mentioned with respect as performers and teachers Maybe there's a lesson to be learend there - and maybe someone to learn it? It seems the individual most in need of learning about our folk traditions is the least likely to do so Please don't let that happen again Pseud - at least not until my back is when I'm not around to comment JIm |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: GUEST,Pseudonymous Date: 06 Nov 19 - 01:40 PM :) |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Jim Carroll Date: 06 Nov 19 - 01:48 PM Yeh well I sem to remember school bullies reacted to being caught out behaving stupidly with w moronic grin Grow up when you're among adults Last word Jim |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Jim Carroll Date: 06 Nov 19 - 01:50 PM Doesn't seem even much point in discussion Walter in present company - it would demean a great man Jim |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: GUEST,Pseudonymous Date: 06 Nov 19 - 02:28 PM Ennis Trad Fest Ticket prices 20 Euros a throw. Performers include BBC Young Performer of the year, Jarlath Henderson, born in Tyrone. an award given in the UK. Topic of this thread. Also featuring UK award nominee Ross Ainslee, from Scotland, UK. UK folk clearly in such good state we are exporting some of it to County Clare. :) |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Jim Carroll Date: 06 Nov 19 - 02:47 PM "Ticket prices 20 Euros a throw." Ennis trad fest is one event in a year and will be packed to the gunwhales with music loving takers Ennis, a small market town, has at least four good traditional free pub sessions a week - we've (about twenty miles away) got about eight at present spread over six nights Still got that moronic grin I see , make sure you don't face the wind or you'll stick like that You appear to have nothing else to offer when someone stands up to you Game set and match, I think Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: r.padgett Date: 06 Nov 19 - 02:55 PM Muirreann nic Amhlaoibh? Yes very sorry I am not Scottish even! Regarding folk on tv many of the artist of yesteryear are of course no longer with us, that is a great shame and we will therefore never see them! |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: r.padgett Date: 06 Nov 19 - 03:01 PM oh and isn't Julie Fowlis wonderful ~ lol Ray What I would like to see is more recording of the older established singers as well as newcomers in the traditional style before it is too late! |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: punkfolkrocker Date: 06 Nov 19 - 03:11 PM Brenda Wooton was on our west country telly a fair bit in the 70s... |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Big Al Whittle Date: 06 Nov 19 - 03:40 PM Its quite hard to play three chords well, and appropriately. |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: GUEST Date: 06 Nov 19 - 03:43 PM 'Muirreann nic Amhlaoibh? Yes very sorry I am not Scottish even!' Just as well. Neither is she. |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Dave the Gnome Date: 06 Nov 19 - 03:59 PM The trouble with comments like "game, set and match", Jim, is that they turn discussion into competition and do not add anything. Surely it would be better just to discuss without trying to score points? Oh, and it sounds remarkably like "you lose". |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Raggytash Date: 06 Nov 19 - 04:10 PM Rule 1. ..................... Rule 2. ..................... |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: GUEST Date: 06 Nov 19 - 04:16 PM And her name's Muireann (only 1 r). |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: GUEST,Starship Date: 06 Nov 19 - 04:53 PM Welcome back, Jim. |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: The Sandman Date: 06 Nov 19 - 05:22 PM its life jim but not as we know it. there are gnomes on the starboard side |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Dave the Gnome Date: 06 Nov 19 - 05:44 PM I'm always on the Port, Dick. I've already used the Star Trek joke BTW. |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Jim Carroll Date: 06 Nov 19 - 06:56 PM "Welcome back, Jim." After watching the denigrating piss-taking of one of Britain's finest and intelligent singers after he has been manhandled off this thread - I'm certainly not back I'll leave you to iy - I'm truly sickened Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: GUEST,Joe G Date: 06 Nov 19 - 07:19 PM Jim - sorry but he wasn't 'manhandled off this thread' I felt - as did many others I suspect, that the ongoing arguments about a particular singer had absolutely nothing to do with the thread topic which is about the state of folk music in the UK today. Far better for a subject of relatively narrow but clearly passionate interest be discussed elsewhere surely. |
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Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK From: Big Al Whittle Date: 06 Nov 19 - 07:21 PM Yes its not nice denigrating other peoples favourite folksingers. |
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