The current state of folk music in UK

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Nov 19 - 07:41 PM

What we take and learn and how we respect our source singers has everything to do with the state of any revival
I think you mean it's far better to forget these people and move on if you're no longer interested in what thay gave us

"
Yes its not nice denigrating other peoples favourite folksingers."
To suggest that "one's favourite folk singers may not be doing what the folk scene has committed itself to do is not "denigrating them Al"
The disgusting treatment Walter has been given by being kicked off here on;ly to be given a kicking by some of the same paopkle of the tread he has been exiled to says everything that needs to ne said, for m anyway
Yo all should be ashamed of yourselves and the fact that there is little chance of that happening tells me everything I need to know about today's folk scene   
I think I'll leave y'all to it
Jim

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Nov 19 - 08:01 PM

Absolutely no one has the right to set the agenda, and compel conformity - be it for reasons of tradition, musical theory, or anything else.

In this country we enjoy artistic freedom. And that extends to folksingers.

Being a good folksinger - one with the talent and commitment to work in the medium is as much about what you reject as what you revere, and absorb.

No one had the right to insist that Lightning Hopkins played strictly four beats to the bar.

If there are any rules in this game - they are made by God, and he doesn't exist... I don't know if you're trying out for the part Jim. But I don't reckon you'll get the job.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 06 Nov 19 - 08:08 PM

I've never heard Walter Pardon and am not that curious. English singing has never been a very big thing for me and I almost entirely bypassed it when getting into folk. I don't identify any more with England than with any other foreign country.

While my multinational biography is a bit odd, I'm far from alone. Have fun with this thread while you can, there isn't going to be a UK to have a folk scene for much longer.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 07 Nov 19 - 11:16 AM

This is nice

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ji6b-EbfXy8

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: r.padgett
Date: 07 Nov 19 - 12:13 PM

Look I am keen on listening to the likes of "Port" which has Gaelic and I think Irish as well as English ~ I am sorry I get some of the facts wrong ~ some of the comments on here really do no favours and some quite frankly do not help ~ for gawds sake you lot lighten up, where are we going in this polite conversation?

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 07 Nov 19 - 12:23 PM

Jim - I am certainly not 'ashamed of myself' and you are being impolite to suggest that everyone here should be

The main reason I suggested that the discussion on WP would be better on another thread is because it always ends up in tedious arguments between you and others.

I think most people here are more interested in discussing what is happening today not decades ago - yes the singers from back then have an important influence on folk music but they are not the only influence.

The work of Steve Knoghtley, Robb Johnson, Jez Lowe, Reg Meuross to name a tiny handful are as much of an influence on the folk scene now as are the voices from the past - we don't have endless arguments about them so I see no reason to have endless arguments about other singers here. I enjoy traditional song but it is not the only form of music most of us consider to be folk today. It is easy really - there are traditional folk songs and there are contemporary folk songs. Both are equally important in charting life. Traditional folk songs contribute to our history just as songs which are being written now will provide a history to people the future.

I'm off to see Winter Wilson at the Black Swan Folk club shortly - Dave Wilson is another songwriter who writes excellent songs about contemporary issues and the couple are superb performers.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Nov 19 - 01:24 PM

Hi Joe, if you can give them regards from Nick & Christine, sorry we won't see them when they are up North.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Nov 19 - 01:37 PM

"Jim - I am certainly not 'ashamed of myself' and you are being impolite to suggest that everyone here should be!"
Anybody who takes the piss out of a long dead field singer (whether they like his singing or not) damn well should be ashamed - I've never encountered such behaviour in the fifty years I've been involved in folk song - are you serious
Anybody who sneers at old people's eating habits (imagined in this case) is guilty of ageism anyway
Sign of the times in today's ervival I assume

"Absolutely no one has the right to set the agenda, and compel conformity"Nobody is "compelling conformity Al - just asking that the clubs live up to what they all themselves - if it was anything other than folk song it would be covered by the trades description act - as it is, it has to rely on the honesty off the clubs - somewhat in short supply nowadays
You've never said how do you believed a yongster paying to listen to a night of their particular taste in pop would react if the venue decided to put on a night of big ballads
It really is disappointing the way you constantly distort my arguments - thought better of you

As I doubt if anybody is going to acknowledge their behavior to Walter and his generation - I' think I'll piss off - nothing to be had here
Jim

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,JoeG
Date: 07 Nov 19 - 01:43 PM

Jim - you said 'you should all be ashamed of yourself' Why should we 'all' be. The great majority of people contributing here have not been disrespectful of anyone. I certainly haven't and I find it somewhat annoying to be accused of something that I haven't done.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,JoeG
Date: 07 Nov 19 - 01:45 PM

Will do Nick!

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Nov 19 - 01:49 PM

I have made sure to catch Winter Wilson every time I go to Moira Furnace Folk Festival and agree entirely, Joe.

On a complete tangent, have you ever seen Mostly Autumn? They are from York and while not exactly folk, you can certainly see the folk and folk rock influences. I heard them via a Spotify recommendation and a few weeks later saw that they were on at the Crescent so I made a day and night of it in York. I had a great time!

Anyhow, back to the thread...

I think I'll leave y'all to it

What, Jim? Again! You have made it very clear what you think about the state of folk in the UK. You made the decision to leave it and go somewhere that suits you better. That's great. Good for you. There are many, as witnessed in these threads, that are more than happy with the state of folk, so we have stayed. It seems pointless to me to keep telling us it is shite when, to us, it is obviously not. You had a choice. Stay and try to fix it or leave. You chose the latter. Nothing at all wrong with that. I only wish you would really leave us to enjoy it rather than keep on telling us how wrong we all are.

But I very much doubt you will.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,JoeG
Date: 07 Nov 19 - 01:58 PM

Hi Dave - not seen Mostly Autumn yet but I note they are on at The Crescent in December. Heard good things about them from others too so may well good it doesn't clash with another gig I know is happening around then

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Nov 19 - 02:07 PM

More comebacks than Frank Sinatra.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Nov 19 - 02:39 PM

"The great majority of people contributing here have not been disrespectful of anyone. "
Some have the reast have let the abuse of an old and respected singer happen without protest or even comment - all who consider themselves decent tolerant human beings and say nothing should be ashamed of themselves, especially those who claim to have an affinity with folk song
That goes for you to Dave - all you can offer is continuing snide - so much fro your healthy folk scene
Jim

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Nov 19 - 03:40 PM

the abuse of an old and respected singer

No such abuse has occurred. Unless you are describing yourself as an old and respected singer and believe disagreeing with you is abuse.

What happened to leaving us all to it?

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Nov 19 - 03:57 PM

Dave, you know the rules..........................

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Nov 19 - 04:04 PM

Always been a bit of a rebel, Raggy. Rules are there to be broken :-)

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Nov 19 - 05:04 PM

Folk based musicians have as much right to reject the influence of Sam Larner and Walter Pardon, as you have to reject Donovan. The syntheses you make of the artists that influence you - that's what you hear in folk clubs.

The thing is - if you listen to Ewan MacColl records or see Brian Peters performing - in a way you will be influenced by what you call the source singers.

If you wish to promote the cause of the source singers, the way to do it is to not to disparrage others. Think of the way Christy Moore has championed the work of John Riley.

Surely this positivism is what is needed.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 07 Nov 19 - 07:24 PM

An excellent night with Winter Wilson - I passed on your & Christine's good wishes Nick which were gratefully received

There were certainly a few songs there that will stand the test of time - and one of which is already being sung at singarounds at Whitby and has a direct personal connection to someone who heard it there and has inspired a prequel to the song. The folk process in action. I reckon we're doing ok :-)

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 07 Nov 19 - 07:34 PM

Well said Al

I must admit, from a brief listen, if WP had been the first person I heard at a folk club I suspect the he wouldn't have attracted me into the genre. Fortunately the first person I heard was Graham Whitley (who I though was the guest as he was so good!) then, later Johnny Handle who inspired my life long love of mining songs.

And before Jim complains that is not to denigrate WP in any way - he simply would not have appealed to me. Nothing wrong with that. If he (and others) have passed down great songs that's good - it doesn't mean we have to like the sound of their voices. Many people don't like Jon Boden or Jim Moray but they are doing the same thing - handing the songs down to new generations - and to many more people through the existence of the internet.

Folk will survive and a positive attitude to disseminating information (which I know Jim has) and a tolerance to how the music is performed will serve us all and our descendants (not that I have any!)

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: r.padgett
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 02:35 AM

Julie Fowlis and Muireann NicAmhlaoibh investigate the music and culture of cities and areas across Scotland and Ireland

I will check their credentials too ~ Julie usually co presents BBC folk awards ~ had a cameo role this year

Ray

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: r.padgett
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 02:38 AM

Muireann Nic Amhlaoibh (born 1978) is a musician and singer from County Kerry, Ireland. Until 2016, she was the lead singer for the traditional music group Danú, and from that year on she has been half of the electronica duo Aeons. Her name is pronounced Murr-en Nick OWL-eev

Ray

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: r.padgett
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 02:42 AM

In 2015, Fowlis and her frequent musical collaborator Muireann Nic Amhlaoibh hosted a television series Port dedicated to traditional Scottish and Irish music.[22] In each episode, Fowlis and Nic Amhlaoibh travel to a new location to highlight local folk musicians and the local traditional music scene. The program is narrated by Fowlis in Scottish Gaelic and Nic Amhlaoibh in Irish, with English-language subtitles. It is broadcast on both BBC Alba and TG4. The first season ran seven episodes, and a second season of seven episodes in 2016.[23][24]

both above from their respective Wikis check out the rest!!

Ray

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 02:51 AM

Muireann in irish language means seafarer so i have been told

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 02:53 AM

i remember graham whitley well, he booked me many times at hartlepool folk club,he was very amusing

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,JoeG
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 04:37 AM

I thought you'd remember Graham, Dick. A lovely bloke if a bit mad at times. We were heartbroken when he died so young.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 04:58 AM

but his mcing made the club ,fond memories of him and the club

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Howard Jones
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 05:43 AM

It gives me no pleasure to say so, but from my own observations I believe that the vast majority of people who enjoy folk music and who go to folk clubs, festivals, sessions and other events, have no interest in true traditional singing. Their points of reference are exclusively folk revival performers. The folk revival has its own aesthetic values - largely accompanied, and a lot of outside influences from America, Europe and elsewhere. It is a modern interpretation of folk music, it is not re-enactment. I love it (well, most of it), but it is a different animal from traditional singing.

At first hearing many of the old singers and musicians can sound a bit rough-and-ready to modern ears. Like any art form, traditional singing takes time and understanding in order to learn how to appreciate it.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,JoeG
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 05:50 AM

It did indeed Dick. Had many very happy nights down there before I moved away and on the occasional return home when I could get a Monday off work

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 06:53 AM

I think you are right, Howard. When only traditional singing was available, it was what people listened to. We now have a massive choice and people will gravitate towards their own particular tastes. I have no doubt at all that people still love some traditional singing. I do myself. But given that there is such a massive range of folk music and so little time, we should not limit ourselves exclusively, or even predominantly, to a tiny part of the range. No matter how important some think it is.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Vic Smith
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 07:06 AM

Howard wrote: -
At first hearing many of the old singers and musicians can sound a bit rough-and-ready to modern ears. Like any art form, traditional singing takes time and understanding in order to learn how to appreciate it.
 It is bit like riding a bike. Difficult for some people to master, quite easy for others, but once you have learned, it can give you pleasure for the rest of your life.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 09:39 AM

I've loved cycling all my life,
but in the last 10 years it gave me an increasingly severe pain in the arse,
so I've now reluctantly left my much loved bike in the hall gathering dust...

Vic - errrmmm.. dunno how that fits with your bike/trad metaphor...???

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 09:42 AM

"...but in the last 10 years it gave me an increasingly severe pain in the arse,"

Have you tried riding it with a saddle on? :-)

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: r.padgett
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 09:58 AM

I do think it is important to say that true traditional singers are diminishing by the hour!

Revival singers and enthusiasts tend to seek earlier revivalist singers for material and even re arrange heir arrangements ~ as well as writing contemporary sing in the traditional style

I for one always advise singers to seek out the true source of songs ~ largely from the traditional singers and to listen to a range of these old singers

Ray

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 10:52 AM

Coming from a punk rock and indy 'outsider music' background,
I've kind of grown up accepting rough unpolished untutored singers, with more individual personality than skill,
as my norm.
It's the technically proficient slick over polished MOR singers,
the vocal acrobatic skills show offs,
that fail to engage my interest and emotions...
I tend to prefer self-taught naturalistic singers.
That's why Walter Pardon immediately sounds ok to me...

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 10:57 AM

.. and why I don't enjoy a lot of current corporate music industry folk singers...

However, I liked Kate Rusby's voice, but found her band arragements too distracting.
I'd have prefered it if she'd just had simple droning reed instruments backing her,
not that show off strummer who tended to over indulge himself..

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 11:22 AM

“It gives me no pleasure to say so, but from my own observations I believe that the vast majority of people who enjoy folk music and who go to folk clubs, festivals, sessions and other events, have no interest in true traditional singing. Their points of reference are exclusively folk revival performers. The folk revival has its own aesthetic values - largely accompanied, and a lot of outside influences from America, Europe and elsewhere. It is a modern interpretation of folk music, it is not re-enactment. I love it (well, most of it), but it is a different animal from traditional singing.”

Pretty much sums it up for me too, Howard.

I’d go further, and say that it was the traddy-rule-makers who set themselves up as arbiters of what may, and may not, be sung in folk clubs who drove me out back in the mid-70s. I recall all-too-clearly my final attendance at a local club, when the MC ran down to the stage shouting, “No, no, no - this isn’t what we want, get off!” at two young men who had just begun a self-written, highly political song. I don’t know who was more embarrassed, the would-be singers or those in the audience who, like me, had been drawn to the clubs by the American and British revival singers and writers.

It was fifteen years before I set foot in a folk club again, by which time the overwhelming control of the “Strictly Trad//That’s not Folk” brigade had waned considerably.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: r.padgett
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 12:10 PM

With respect I have never been to a traditional only folk club as far as I know

The scene 50 years on in sessions and clubs I visit have encompassed the revivalist, traditionalist and contemporary singer songwriters that call themselves (rightly) folk singers and new singers and others love to be part of the scene ~ joining in is to my mind part of the enjoyment in both music and chorus songs ~ though not necessarily always a good idea at concerts and clubs where there is paying audience!

I am not keen on Americana ~ simply it is not what I like for a number of reasons, and feel I am wasting my time ~ alright for concert goers ~ not me sorry

Newcomers to the scene are and should be encouraged to seek out the traditional and all the other music in the folk genre and sing unaccompanied or with accompaniment which is "appropriate" and they are ~good luck to them

Ray

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 12:11 PM

That would be Metagamma Joe. Dave and Kit sang it one night in the Tap & Spile. At the end of the night I asked if they had it on CD and secondly could we use it.

The answer was no they hadn't as yet recorded it, but they would put in on their website for 24 hours so I could download it, which they duly did.

Christine and I started using the song, which is truly superb, a proper folk song. It became our 'stadium' song, one that we could rely on to bring the house down.

On roll a few years and Kit and Dave where again playing in Whitby, when they came to that song I think they were amazed at how the audience took up the chorus !!

Someone said to Christine 'they're singing your song!' No said Christine we were singing their song!!

Lovely, lovely people.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 12:12 PM

Joe I should have said Thank you for passing on our regards, so Thank you.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 12:42 PM

Raggy, it’s Kip, not Kit.

You’re right, Dave and Kip are friends of mine, and they’re a grand couple - funny, musically very talented, and very generous with their material to other performers. I’ll be doing a floor-spot with my band at WW’s Boston gig on Monday evening - I’ll give them your regards!

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 12:51 PM

Yes that's the song Nick - I couldn't recall the name after a few pints! It must have been you and Christine I remember singing it at new year. When they were singing it I was thinking ' I know this song but not from them singing it!' so when they said it was popular in Whitby the penny dropped!

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 02:05 PM

I've never come across a 'strictly traditional' folk club in over 40 years as punter and performer, though I don't deny they may have existed back in the mists of time. What I have come across are folk clubs in which traditional or traditional-style songs are favoured by the organisers who make their preferences known through the performers they book, or by assembling a like-minded group of friends who like the same kind of thing. If the 'wrong' kind of singer turns up to do a spot then I hope they'd be treated with generosity. However I was told many times in my days of cold-calling organisers that such-and-such a club didn't like'that finger in the ear stuff' at my first mention of traditional songs, so prejudice clearly works both ways. I don't have a problem with that - if someone volunteers to put the work in to run a regular venue, they're entitled to put on whatever kind of music they want, as far as I'm concerned.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 02:11 PM

if someone volunteers to put the work in to run a regular venue, they're entitled to put on whatever kind of music they want

Thank you, thank you and thank you again, Brian. That is what I have been trying to say for ages. You just summed it up so simply :-)

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 02:14 PM

what's wrong with 'Americana'? Only the name, maybe, and quite possibly the way it's promoted, but if it means dismissing American music entirely, that's nonsense- a definition maybe needed here?

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 03:14 PM

Guest ............ I think we perhaps have enough problems on this thread with 'definitions' without adding to them !!!!!!

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 04:19 PM

It’s some people’s insistence on everyone else sticking to their outdated, outmoded ‘definitions’ that have caused the problems.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 07:51 PM

correct Dave, but dont expect me to turn up for andy caven, even though he does what he does well, and certainly dont expect me to turn up to see unpractised singers practising with portfolios. andy may not be my taste but he does what he does well

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 08:19 PM

We were quite a poor family, and I didn't own a really playable guitar til i was 23 - although I had learned to play on five quid Rosettis and the like.

Still since i owned that first good guitar -(a Jedson, my wife got me one Christmas from Kays Catalogue) - probably the most important thing in my life has been trying to play the instrument better than I could the day before.

What I am trying to say is - that probably to guys like me and BWM, who take playing very seriously, the blokes (and women) with ringbinders and and still struggling with the three chord trick and coming out to play in public - probably jar more on us that than they do on you.

However that's only half the story Guys like Roger Quigley who has run the The Sailors Return in Weymouth every Wednesday provides a place where people can get started and more experienced singers can perform as well. Roger also runs the Wessex Folk Festival which is a terrific festival for traditional dance.

in a typical sailors evening you will hear every aberration and variety of folk music imaginable, and it is welcoming and inclusive. And that is a damn sight more healthy than the scene I grew up with where either you were trying for a career in showbiz, or you were looking for a neurotic alternative to being an ordinary human being. Either way, you had a licence to look down on others.

The scene isn't a comfortable place for those of us who remember evenings of great entertainment, and rubbing shoulders with the great professional performers of our generation. but it has its merits. and its not our go.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Nov 19 - 10:25 PM

”What I am trying to say is - that probably to guys like me and BWM, who take playing very seriously, the blokes (and women) with ringbinders and and still struggling with the three chord trick and coming out to play in public - probably jar more on us that than they do on you.”

Well, as the Basal Joint Thumb Osteoarthritis gets worse and worse (in both hands, due to manny years of finger-picking), my playing is going backwards I’m afraid. I can’t take anti-inflammatories due to my other, more important, medication fighting with them, but I rub the Voltarol 2.32% on, grit my teeth, keep playing, and try to ignore the pain!

Y’know, it’s not the ring-binders I object to per se - I have my electronic version of the ring-binder, with my set-lists set up in OnSong on my iPad, the lyrics are there for quick reference should I forget a line, and I regard a quick glance down to get my equilibrium restored and the song flowing is far preferable to the all-round embarrassment of cue-dropping, freezing, and having to abandon a performance mid-song when my brain-fade kicks in. I mount my iPad about waist-height - on my mic-stand if I’m playing plugged, or on its own stand or side-table with my picks, capos and tuner if unplugged - so there’s no barrier preventing contact with my audience.

So, whilst I prefer well-rehearsed performers and dislike ‘habitual readers’ - those who rely on reading entire songs despite having sung them many, many times, and who hide their faces behind their binders instead of looking out at their audience - I don’t have a problem with singers for whom an occasionally-referred-to aide memoire provides comfort and confidence, and helps them make a better fist of their performance.

And, as I get into my eighth decade, I find that, whilst my playing and vocal skills remain plenty good enough for playing-out, where my memory is concerned “Fings ain’t wot they used to be” and discreet electronic assistance is something I appreciate.

As always with this kind of thing, the usual disclaimers apply - IMHO, YMMV, etc.