The current state of folk music in UK

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 23 Dec 19 - 09:28 AM

Dick- you've just asked Per Laban to stop telling you what to play!

You may not like my combination of a 'trad' tune and a 'pop' song that's fine by me- there are probably other choices I make musically that you don't like either! I've learned a lot from older musicians over the years & one lesson I've picked up is tolerance.
    I like Sam Cooke MUCH better than many/most? folk luminaries who shall be nameless but I'm not about to start an exchange about our musical preferences.
   I like the polka 'Taglioni' & it segues well into 'Donald where's your troosers' - the locals like it anyway & also used to in Ireland- do you object to this?

   However the words that stand out to me in your reply to my last post are I PREFER- doesn't that say it all?

---

I think the Christmas shutdown is a good opportunity to close this thread. It has run its course, and threads with over a thousand messages put a heavy burden on the workings of the 'Cat.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: r.padgett
Date: 23 Dec 19 - 08:10 AM

Yes times change, preferences change in musical taste ~ folk clubs, well some continue to meet as singarounds, some with occasional guests others have fallen by the wayside ~ more sessions and mixed song and music sessions ~ some concert venues thrive too

Some professional acts organise alone or with Agents gig tours and of course Folk Festivals continue ~ young acts are sought after, some younger acts resist involvement in folk clubs and also fail to appreciate the work done by club and festival organisers ~take things for granted and folk club demise will follow!!

Ray

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Nick
Date: 23 Dec 19 - 07:45 AM

>>2100 - I wasn't expecting that.

Nor me. Have I missed something? I am still planning for 2020

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Dec 19 - 05:52 AM

Moaning? ‘Moan’, of course.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Dec 19 - 05:51 AM

”well backwoodsman think what you like. the evidence is different i organise a folk festival which is a broad church., and encompasses a wide folk repertoire, i have even booked jim bainbridge”

Dick, it’s nothing to do with what I think, and everything to do with evidence, on this and other threads, in black and white. If you don’t wish to be viewed as someone who thinks he’s a ‘guardian of folk’, stop pontificating about what tunes/songs should or shouldn’t be played/sung together, and making pompous statements such as ”you think that nancu [sic] works with blue moon perhaps this throws light on the current state of folk music in th [sic] uk”.

If you insist on behaving in a boorish, high-handed fashion, don’t piss and moaning when you’re called out on it.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 23 Dec 19 - 04:50 AM

'peter. please stop suggesting or telling me what i should play/'

I didn't tel you what to play, if you can't distinguish a tongue in cheek remark hinting at the similarity between two tunes and being told what to play, perhaps you should ask Santa for a sense of humour.


Perhaps a good starting point would be where you stop telling people what and what not to do. But perhaps you don't see the irony in that either.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Joe G
Date: 22 Dec 19 - 06:37 PM

2100 - I wasn't expecting that. Thanks to all contributors. Let's not fall out - I'm sure we wouldn't if we were chatting to each other in the pub :-)

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Dec 19 - 06:28 PM

well backwoodsman think what you like. the evidence is different i organise a folk festival which is a broad church., and encompasses a wide folk repertoire, i have even booked jim bainbridge
peter. please stop suggesting or telling me what i should play/

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Dec 19 - 05:28 PM

I prefer Sam Cooke and most Soul and Rock n Roll I've ever heard
to any Irish folk music..
I'd happily hear a good rendition of a Sam Cooke song anywhere...

Moreover, I prefer East European folk music to any British or Irish folk music...

Sue me...

However that don't ever stop me enjoying good British and Irish folk music...


REMINDER: I never go to folk clubs...

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 22 Dec 19 - 04:44 PM

"Christmas Sung Simply"

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Dec 19 - 12:15 PM

He's only channelling someone else, John ;-)

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Dec 19 - 12:06 PM

Quote 1 - ” I am not dictating anybodys repertoire , i have the right to say wht i think works[ an opinion not a fact] and what i think does not work.”

Quote 2 - ”you think nancu works with blue moon perhaps this throws light on the current state of folk music in th uk”

Quote 3 - ”Jeri, are you suggesting that i consider myself a guardian of folk, i do not consider myself a guardian of anything”

On the evidence of Quotes 1 and 2, I’d say the answer to Quote 3 must be a resounding ‘Yes’.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Dec 19 - 12:02 PM

Merry Christmas to you Dick.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 22 Dec 19 - 11:51 AM

For the week that's in it, perhaps try to tack the Piper in the Meadow straying onto Deck the Hall. It may work ;-)

I didn't say if there was another tune attached to 'A change is gonna come'. If there were, would it have been out, dick? I suppose it would have been from your point of view. It would have been something completely different from what you think I was talking about.

Ah well..

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Dec 19 - 11:44 AM

someone. might argue that it works to sing three blind mice and play off she goes because they were both originally nursery rhymes tunes. try it in a folk club and see how it gets received.
you think nancu works with blue moon perhaps this throws light on the current state of folk music in the uk.
,

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Dec 19 - 11:34 AM

Nancy Whisky works very well with Blue Moon. Going more seasonal Stop the Cavalry tacks very nicely on to Deck the Halls. In my opinion.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Dec 19 - 11:17 AM

I am not dictating anybodys repertoire , i have the right to say wht i think works[ an opinion not a fact] and what i think does not work.
i do not think piper through the meadow works with saturday night, sam cooke song, anymore than i think the blarney pilgrims works with lily the pink as a song,played and sung in a tune song combination, is that clear?

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Dec 19 - 11:11 AM

yes, you are because i am talking about a sam cooke song after an irish instrumental tune,
i am not talking about it as in instrumental slow air, i would quite happily mix a jay ungur.. new tune.. with an irish trad tune. and if you disagree that is fine, we all hve the right to have different opinions about what works,
that does not make me a guardian of something as a so called moderator suggested, neither does it mean that i am not going to contact, jim.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 22 Dec 19 - 10:59 AM

'peter laban, is discussing something different a slow air played on its own, he is not talking about playing an irish instrumental peice with a sam cooke song'

Am I talking about something else? I don't think so, it was a Sam Cooke piece, right in the middle of a whole night of traditional Irish pieces. And it combined well because the musicians treated it like they would treat any piece of music.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Dec 19 - 09:48 AM

I do not dislike your choice of music, Jim, but i feel that playing sam cooke after piper through the meadow straying is incongrouos, and does not work as wqell as playing two tunes from the accepted irish repertoire,
i have enjoyed working and playing with you in the past , neither have i said i would not book you, you said you did not want to play folk festivals or did not enjoy them, i subsequently remarked in a seperate post that i felt this was a shame.
to take up peter labans point, it is hardly relevant, because i am not objecting to an instrumental modern composed pieice being played , if i thought that, it would rule out jay ungurs compositions, my point is that piper through the meadow straying is incongrous imo with a sam cooke song, imo, i prefer it played with an instrumental composition.      here are jims very own words, quote
I make NO apology for playing & singing my own versions of songs by such as the Everly Brothers, Sam Cooke, Bing Crosby, Charlie Poole,. Bonnie Tyler & Dr Hook,
peter laban, is discussing something different a slow air played on its own, he is not talking about playing an irish instrumental peice with a sam cooke song,that is my opinion and my taste nothing more or less, we are all entitled to different opinions.
i am not dictating anybodys repertoire, any more than any other organiser, every organiser makes a decision to book someone based on their repertoire.
Neither have i ever said i would not book you.
.I made a remark that imo certain combinations[eg piper and another saturday night by sam cooke] did not sit comfortably, if you cannot accept that one item of your repertoire is not my cup of tea that is very sad
   at my festival, i have in the past booked bluegrass bands, folk rock, shanty groups, singer songwritersunaccompanied irish ,matt cranitch and jackie daly, in fact pretty much the whole spectrum of what is generally known as folk music.
Jeri, are you suggesting that i consider myself a guardian of folk, i do not consider myself a guardian of anything. but i am entitled to express my prefernces and opinions, and this exactly what they are
i am not dictating anybodys repertoire

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Dec 19 - 09:29 AM

Therein hangs a tale, Jeri. I have asked the question often only to be told that folk song is blatantly obvious. However, when I suggest that some of the stuff I like could be admitted into the broad church of folk music I am told that it is people like me that are ruining folk music and we are responsible for the current complete dearth of folk music in England ;-)

Still, as the self appointed arbiter of what is and what is not folk music is on enforced leave, we seem to have all agreed that if it sounds like folk, it probably is :-)

Anyway, as the traditional seasonal song goes Iiiiiitttssss Chriiiiiissssttttmmmmassss!

So Merry Christmas everyone :-)

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jeri
Date: 22 Dec 19 - 08:51 AM

I wonder when the Guardian at the Gate of Folk started being a thing. Were there people in the 1600s who said "That song is not already in our collective repertoires as an approved Folk song, so it's not allowed to be sung here"? How the blazes did the songs IN people's collective repertoires as approved Folk songs get there in there first place?

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 22 Dec 19 - 07:06 AM

I thank Dave & Peter for their positivity- I've already explained I choose not to use terms like folk & traditional, nor have I chosen to 'abandon' the folk scene, Dick- my nearest club is 60 miles away & there's plenty of chance to play my music nearer than that, without tearing all over these islands- those days are over.

Dick, you've known my style of music for 25 years- it was acceptable with the locals for years in your West Cork traditional stronghold (!), including my versions of songs by Sam Cooke, Buddy Holly, Hank Williams, Charlie Poole & Chuck Berry- so what's changed?
I was glad to come to your 'folk' festival a couple of times & thank you for that but I don't think you have the right to dictate my repertoire! No-one has ever done that to me in 50 years of music.
I've always tried to respond to your requests in a session, including songs by Gus Elen & Charlie Poole (folk??) so what's changed?

You certainly have the right not to ask me to your festival again, and also to dislike my choice of music, but I had the right to say thanks but no thanks when you did ask. Maybe I don't much like your definition of 'folk'   along with a lot of what goes on more generally in the official 'folk scene'.
It's really what this thread is about- i think the music is thriving outside the 'scene' so let's not revive the folk police- we're on the same side really- good luck with the festival- I know how much you go out on a limb to cover the financial side....merry Christmas to our may pals around Dunbeacon & Ballydehob.

Vic, isn't it great to see a bit of humour creeping into all this- shows you the possibilities of such a hackneyed old song & I think the exuberance of Fats Waller & the Altai Band should be an example to us all- merry Christmas to you & Tina!

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Dec 19 - 06:13 AM

Sam Cooke had a good approach to writing great songs. He said you needed to keep it simple so people could remember and repeat it. Surely that has a lot in common with folk music :-)

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 22 Dec 19 - 05:37 AM

You know, two weeks ago I saw Andrew MacNamara play Cooke's 'A change is gonna come' on the accordion, as a slow air-ish piece. It worked admirably well and I thought it was a point well made. I don't think there was a single person in the room who minded it, or cared whether or not it was folk, traditional or whatever. It was good music.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Dec 19 - 04:13 AM

That is not a criticism of jim as a singer or musician, i have had many good sessions with him
.when i run an event labelled "folk"i am of the opinion that there is so much good instrumental material that its not needed to include sam cooke with a trad tune.
oobviously playing outside the folk scene or irish pubs is a different kettle of fish , i find it sad that jim prefers to abandon the folk scene to play in places where he feels plying sam cooke with trad tunes is preferable, imo a waste of talent, but i would like to wish him all the best and thank him for all the good times we have had together in the past

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Dec 19 - 02:48 PM

I disagree with Jim, when i book him i would prefer him to play piper through the meadw straying but not with sam cooke, there are so many good trad tunes,that fit in [imo] a more appropriate way,
that is the prerogative of the promoter or organiser.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Vic Smith
Date: 20 Dec 19 - 01:46 PM

And the same song - different approach - different continent - different tradition - but also lovely: -
Watch it by clicking here

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Vic Smith
Date: 20 Dec 19 - 01:38 PM

Jim wrote:-
Great stuff Vic- what a lovely band with that lovely traditional rhythm- I could talk a lot of that!
I loved it! It made me smile all the way through watching it,
....but is it enough to drag you away from the Gambia next year?
Nope! Already booked for Feb & March

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 20 Dec 19 - 01:03 PM

Great stuff Vic- what a lovely band with that lovely traditional rhythm- I could talk a lot of that! probably keeps them warm as well
but is it enough to drag you away from the Gambia next year?

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Mad Jock
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 06:21 PM

Hi not posted here for a few years and started to read this thread but there is too much to go through it all. So I might be repeating what had already been said.
It is wrong to judge the state of Folk Music in the whole of the UK as it is very different in England and Scotland and Wales and Ireland.
From the Scottish perspective up in in Perth in particular it is vibrant. The standard of musicians is high and even in Perth alone there are several great venues which welcome performers. I could go to a session almost every night of the week within a 20 minute drive .
Other genres are also available. ..
If passing through try The Twa Tams or Greyfriars both in Perth. Just down the road in Bridge of Earn is a secret little bar the Cyprus Inn. Worth a visit. And of course bring your voice or instruments.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Vic Smith
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 02:33 PM

There is a certain seasonal song that has been creating a lot of discussion in this thread of late. If traditional song is recognised by process rather than origin and many people believe that it is, then this is a fine example. Watch it by clicking here

Oh! and a question for Al. Can he detect any Mongolian Nose Flutes because I watched it and listened carefully and couldn't detect any.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: r.padgett
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 02:45 AM

Thought Jim Carroll was back for a minute there

Ray

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: r.padgett
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 02:45 AM

Thought Jim Carroll was back for a minute there

Ray

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 02:09 PM

Merry Christmas back to you, Ray.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 12:21 PM

"Bollocks to Christmas" would be my favourite xmas song,
if anyone ever gets round to writing it...

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 11:45 AM

I'll have whatever kind of Christmas I choose! Who are you to tell me what kind of Christmas I should have? What do you mean by Christmas anyway? Define "Merry"!

:-D

Have a good 'un yerself

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: r.padgett
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 11:28 AM

just seven days to Christmas so Merry Christmas to all of you

Ray

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 05:23 AM

That's fine then, Dick, everyone's happy! As you know, I've great adnmiration for your stamina in organising (and raising funds for - the difficult bit!) your festival & wish it all the best.
A personal thing, but it's just not my scene.. HAPPY NEW YEAR

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Dec 19 - 06:14 PM

jim, you are always welcome[ but no rudolph, pleae save that for xmas], but I am already fully booked for 2019, so regrettably i would not have been able to fit you in

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 17 Dec 19 - 04:25 PM

Hi Tim
Nick is in the driving seat, but I'm assured it's well on its way. There was a slight problem with the typefaces Cohen had used not being compatible with those the publisher wanted to use, but this appears to have been sorted. My contributions were largely finished well over 6 months ago.

Nick pops in here but I know he's very busy gigging, and I'm sure Cohen is as well.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 17 Dec 19 - 01:27 PM

Agreed, Dick, we have a rather different approach to the music, folk or otherwise & that's fine by me too- Happy New Year... had great times in West Cork years ago but I won't be at Ballydehob next year either...

Vic, I didn't know that Scan played 'Puppet on a String' & it just proves my point, thanks.
The Marsden Rattlers attended the Durham Miners' Gala in July 1968 where the favourite tune played by the brass bands was the very same one    . It entered our repertoire & we were recorded playing it by Bill Leader a few weeks later at the 3rd TMSA traditional festival in Blairgowrie.
We took it as a compliment from Bill that he regarded our efforts as being worthy of inclusion on the Topic LP 'Festival at Blairgowrie' alongside such Scottish traditional icons as Mary Brooksbank & John 'Hoddan' MacDonald.... no blinkers on Bill....

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Dec 19 - 01:16 PM

no, the criterion popular has no relevance to quality, you know as well as i do that there are banal and badly written pop music as well as good quality.
criteria can be judged on craftsmanship of lyrics[similiar to poetry judging] and quality of tune and music.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 17 Dec 19 - 12:11 PM

'Inside Llewyn Davis' -- “If it's never been new and it never gets old, it's a folk song."

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: RTim
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 06:51 PM

Steve (Gardham) - I just think it an "Interesting Fact" and there are not that many "Facts" being quoted here...

In my recent experience living where I do - South of Boston - we do not get much Snow these years before Christmas.....but as for February and March...that is another matter!! Global warming......

Tim Radford

PS - Between us...any progress on the Book?...I haven't heard a peep from Nick for awhile....You can write privately if necessary.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 06:13 PM

I'm either 109 or dead by now...

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 05:38 PM

Is that a snowdrift I see....oops, no, it's thread drift.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 05:36 PM

Hi Tim
Does it matter to anyone in this country why or when it was written? I doubt it. Do they not sing it at Christmas in your neck of the woods then? I can just picture the season police in Times Square fining people on Christmas Eve for singing it. Are sleighbells banned after Thanksgiving's over?

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 05:09 PM

I'm not trying to prove anything, Dick. Just having a bit of banter.
I stand corrected on its date and, yes, if I was being serious I would have checked. 'The quality of a song' is very often a matter of opinion and it all depends on what criteria you are using. Does the criterion 'popularity' mean nothing?

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: RTim
Date: 16 Dec 19 - 04:47 PM

Jingle Bells was written as stated below - by an American and was originally written for Thanksgiving NOT Christmas......

Tim Radford