The current state of folk music in UK

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Oct 19 - 10:38 AM

..and we are not too far away from faster and more reliable internet connections
that will enable folks from all around the world
to enjoy sessions playing together in real time
from their own homes.
Where-ever they may be...

Though the UK may continue lagging behind because of our shite Internet provider companies...

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Oct 19 - 10:33 AM

Jim - so singing along and playing instruments whilst listening to recordings,
don't count as participation and learning...???

So recording a performance at home and posting it on youtube
for potentially thousands of other music entusiasts to sing and play along to,
don't count as participation learning...???

Nah.. that's all passive reception and consumption.. innit...!!!???

is it, bollocks...

It's 2019, not 1959, folk clubs could die off overnight and eventuially not be missed,
but folk music will continue to thrive as long as younger generations of folks all around the world
share and communicate, and express themselves freeely on the internet...

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Iains
Date: 20 Oct 19 - 08:22 AM

Researchers have found a part of our brain dedicated solely to music. Because of this, all sorts of reactions occur in our brains in response to hearing it. ... Hearing music alters the neurochemicals in our brains and triggers the release of dopamine and endorphins.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 20 Oct 19 - 07:42 AM

Ham and eggs: The chicken was involved, the pig was committed.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Iains
Date: 20 Oct 19 - 06:46 AM

Simply listening is being involved.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Oct 19 - 05:57 AM

"Jim - it's called "music appreciation".."
It should be callaed musical participation if it i to have a future
You can appreciate any knind of music without being actively involved in it
Jim

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Oct 19 - 05:42 AM

It has been affected by the lack of available venues due to changes in the nature of pub ownership, I notice some performers are now presenting themed nights in village halls.
My impression is that vocally the scene is more varied than it is in ireland where tradtional music is mainly unaccompanied ,instrumental traditional music[excluding vocals]seems to be of a technically higher performance standard in ireland, that does not necessarily make it more interesting music, while technique is necessary it is not the" be all and end all" of performance

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,JoeG
Date: 19 Oct 19 - 07:37 PM

It is our unmissable festival!

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Captain Swing
Date: 19 Oct 19 - 07:17 PM

JoeG - I must get to Musicport - sounds great!

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,JoeG
Date: 19 Oct 19 - 05:48 PM

Following on from my earlier comments about how good cross cultural music can be the Vaarldens Band turned in another astonishing set tonight at Musicport
Jack your friend Lewis provided beautiful accomplishment to Amira - especially as they only met last night. A fine musician!
Jim Moray turned in a superb set of traditional songs too. Folk music from many lands in excellent health here :-)

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Oct 19 - 12:46 PM

'We set up the folk scene to give people the opportunbity to play an active part in our art
We could have satyed and got Emotionally amd intellectually involved in Max Bygraves'

More people of that generation love Nax Bygraves - his songs,films, even his singalong amax albums than evercould get involved the supposed and largely imaginary merits of Sheath and Knife.

Must be a bugger pretending to like folk music when you don't like folk very much. Certainly you show no respect for the music they have taken to their hearts.

I have no idea how you intend (if you ever did) to promote folk song. But what precisely is wrong with having the ambition to make a living from folk music? they may end up as Max Bygraves or Cliff Richard - whose career does have a straightforward trajectory? Wanting to be a folksinger is better than wanting to be serial killer, or a tory Prime Minister. What pleasure do you derive from pissing on peoples' dreams? In some cases dreams is all some kids have.

My nightmare is they end up singing Sheeath and Knife and the Ballad of tam Linn to four manic depressives and me at Sidmouh Folk Festival.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 19 Oct 19 - 11:16 AM

Mohsen Amini is Scottish, not English!!! (Guest RA)...of course he is, sorry - hadn't seen the video!

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 19 Oct 19 - 10:03 AM

"To put it rather unsubtly, it's complete bollocks to dismiss other folks personal relationship with music
if they are not opening their gobs and singing it themselves..."

As a dancer who loves folk songs but has no intention of spending time learning them for performance, nor of using a crib sheet, I can relate to that.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Oct 19 - 09:49 AM

""Truly listening to music and engaging emotionally/intellectually with it,
is far from being a mere passive recipient... "
Are you serious ?
That is exactly what it is"

Jim - it's called "music appreciation"..
it's an active skill,
which can be improved with training and experience..

"We set up the folk scene to give people the opportunbity to play an active part in our art"

That's nice of you.. Thanks..

But down here in Scrumpyshire where some bloke named Cecil many years ago collected songs
in villages where my dad's ancestors very likely lived, worked, drank cider, and entertained themselves with song..
Well.. seriously.. those long ago simple ordinay working folks may have beat you to it by a century or so...
..and with real social and cultural authenticity rarely ever to be found in later 20th century urban folk clubs...

"We could have satyed and got Emotionally amd intellectually involved in Max Bygraves"

You could have.. and nowt so wrong with that.. each to their own and all that...

But even in the 1950's there was a wealth of diverse music available on the radio, TV, and 78s
to be actively appreciated and enjoyed...
Not just "Pink Tooth Brush"..
as much sheer joy as that record was for a lot of folks...

My mum and dad had a great time in that era,
they were massive music fans...
There was no sitting passively still to the big swing bands and rock n roll...

Who know what they may have been listening to while I was being conceived...
Perhaps blame Stan Kenton or Frankie Vaughan...???


To put it rather unsubtly, it's complete bollocks to dismiss other folks personal relationship with music
if they are not opening their gobs and singing it themselves...

You are one of my favourite mudcatters, I have sincere respect for you,
and would be happy to know you in real life as a mate and mentor..

But sometimes you do work yourself up into talking such over-opinionated tripe...

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Sol
Date: 19 Oct 19 - 05:17 AM

Tbh, I generally listen to music I like (and occasionally some stuff I don't like). I don't restrict myself to any one style although I appreciate there are those who prefer to stick to a well-defined genre. That's fine by me. Seek and ye shall find.

Btw, nobody apparently 'steals' anything these days, they call it 'sampling' now :)

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Oct 19 - 04:20 AM

"I doubt The Irish Times "
None so convenient as those you wish to doubt, as they should have said
Lat'e be clear about this
We weer involved in the music with out aspiring to make a careere out of it
Robert Zimmermann (real name) was involved as a step on te road to fame
So we should shed tears fpr someone stugglibng to hget to the top on songs of the tarvails of black people, who is more concerned about getting to the top using those songs
I was just out of my apprenticeship at the time and was struggling to pay my way at home, yet me and many more also had to find the fares to Aldermaston to try stop the nuclear madness, and South Wales and Faslane to stop Britain being used as a US Nuclear base
And pay what we ddi to keep up with our involvement in the musiC
Sorry - not many tears for Booby ran down my cheeks, especially as I am now being asked to be happy that the clubs should now stand aside for the scene to become something for young people who want to make careers and win prizes

"Truly listening to music and engaging emotionally/intellectually with it,
is far from being a mere passive recipient... "
Are you serious ?
That is exactly what it is
We set up the folk scene to give people the opportunbity to play an active part in our art
We could have satyed and got Emotionally amd intellectually involved in Max Bygraves
Must go - folk song proper calls
Jim

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Guest Tim
Date: 19 Oct 19 - 04:00 AM

We are lucky down in the far south west away from the metropolis, within 10 miles radius of my home, Helston Cornwall, there are pub sessions virtually every night, some better than others I must admit. Because of the lack of public transport down here they do not attract the same players.
What I have noticed is that they all attract a good audience and the occasional contribution from them, some songs that just don’t get heard outside of the Dutchy.
My local is renowned as a singing pub, most weekend nights someone will strike up with a few songs, mostly trad, I wonder if that is because of the choir tradition down here. It’s not just old folks as well, there are a bunch of youngsters from Porthleven who have been to the sessions and have learnt the songs, great voices, now taking them out to new audiences in their own age group.
It’s not all doom and gloom

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 18 Oct 19 - 11:48 PM

canadee io did not belong to Nic Jones ,so could not have stole from him   ,nor did Dylan steal Jones,s arrangement, Dylan’s guitar onCanadee io is VERY different from that of Nic Jones. so there are really no grounds for the accusation of theft.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 18 Oct 19 - 11:26 PM

Paul Simon and his brother,Ed, performed Anji live on television and stated that the song was written by Davy Graham. the same song has been recorded by many people including Bert Jansch and John Renbourn.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 18 Oct 19 - 11:07 PM

I don,t think she actually won, Joe. There was a “ buyout” and the case did not go to court. it may have seemed to her lawyers that they would have a difficult time establishing Richie,s “ ownership “. Of a traditional song. For their part, Dylan’s laweywers must have conceded that Dylan’s arrangement was very much like richie,s .
that is my take on it anyway .

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 Oct 19 - 10:27 PM

Martin Carthy had a misunderstanding with Paul Simon about "Scarborough Fair," but later cleared up the disagreement.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/4722968/Friends-again-with-Paul-Simon.html

Davy Graham composed the guitar piece "Anji," or "Angie,", which was later recorded by Paul Simon and others. Don't know if there was a disagreement on that one.

As for Dylan, I don't know of any UK musicians who accused him of expropriation, but Jean Ritchie sued Dylan for his copyrighting of "Nottamun Town." Ritchie claimed it was a traditional song that had been in her family for generations - and she won.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 18 Oct 19 - 08:50 PM

Was it in the Irish Times ?

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Oct 19 - 08:29 PM

But Mr Zimmerman stole Canadee-I-O from Nic...

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Hilo
Date: 18 Oct 19 - 07:04 PM

It was claimed on the Argo Guthrie thread that Dylan stole Scarborough Fair from Martin Carthy? I was simply stating that all evidence is to the contrary.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Oct 19 - 02:47 PM

Anyway.. no British folkies ever had a Magic Roundabout character named after them...?????

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Brian Peters
Date: 18 Oct 19 - 02:42 PM

Dylan did not steal Scarborough Fair from Martin Carthy.

Indeed not, and I've never heard anyone claim that he did. It was Paul Simon who recorded an arrangement of the song uncannily similar to Martin's. Dylan did borrow elements for 'Girl From the North Country' from SF, but he was friends with Carthy and there was no suggestion of 'stealing'.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 18 Oct 19 - 02:11 PM

I doubt The Irish Times
would have printed this without having looked into the veracity of it..good journalists do not that.
Dylan did not have to be persuaded to go, He flew on a plane seated next to Bikel..Bikel confirms this in an interview readily available on youtube.
Dylan did not steal Scarborough Fair from Martin Carthy..Martin Carthy refutes that story. There are times when you have a rather outstanding credibility problem, yet you continue to tell this demonstrably untrue story.
I know you do not like Dylan, but that should not be a reason to malign him....should it ?

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Oct 19 - 01:56 PM

Jim - have a little think about this..

Truly listening to music and engaging emotionally/intellectually with it,
is far from being a mere passive recipient...

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Oct 19 - 01:33 PM

"So the story related by Jim is a total misrepresentation of what actually happened and Jim has repeated this fallacy many times. "
A damn sight more accurate than most of the stories told my MacColl
I repeat the story as I read it in The Irish Times
I don't know whether Bikel and Zimmerman (real name!!) ever met, but in essence - he had to be persuaded to go to take part in the events he was building his career singing about
Would that stories such as this all be even handed and fair I really wouldn't bother - let's face it, they took place in the dim and distance past
At least Zimmermann is still around to put his side


"I can't get that exercised over whether there are fewer folk clubs today than 50 years ago when I wasn't alive. There are enough ot them now to occupy my time"
Too "Ding-ding - I'm on the bus" for me I'm afraid Matt
As things stand with the present numbers, I seean increase in clubs as the only way to guarantee a continuation of folk songs as a participatory activity rather than passive entertainment
Survial depends on new singers who don't necessarily see themselves as superstars - and new enthusiasts willing to organise and research   
Some of our best researchers came through the clubs, Vic Gammon, Roy Palmer and Bob Thomson spring to mind
When that stops the songs willl be confibed to the locked cupboards
Jim
(sory if this is full of typos, as usual - I ***** hate unfamiliar compuers and this hotel doesn't seem to go in for a aplellcheck)

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 18 Oct 19 - 01:12 PM

I'm looking forward to seeing Amira, Jack. I love music from that part of the world. Tonight's highlight for us will be the Warsaw Village Band - one of my favourite bands

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 18 Oct 19 - 09:47 AM

Amira: Rosa

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Oct 19 - 08:34 AM

Yes its okay with the traddies if you toe the party line.

Because Sunjay's influences were mainly American based when he was runner up in the BBC Young Folk Musician of the year at the age of 18 - several people on mudcat felt entitled to be very sniffy.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 18 Oct 19 - 06:28 AM

I believe the Bosnian Sevdah singer Amira is going to be at Musicport. Lewis the multi-instrumentalist I play with every week in Leith will be in her backing band. We occasionally do sevdah stuff in that session, I'll have a listen to the Amira CD I have before next week and see what I can figure out. (I've got Mohammed Zero's sevdah book).

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Iains
Date: 18 Oct 19 - 05:32 AM

An interesting stroll through history to the state of music in English Schools. It also resparks some old controversies:
https://books.google.ie/books?id=zptMAgAAQBAJ&pg=PT43&lpg=PT43&dq=should+a+folk+singer+onlysing+their+own+tradition&source=bl&ot

scroll right to the end

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,RA
Date: 18 Oct 19 - 05:06 AM

Yes GUESTKenny - exactly right! Thank you.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,JoeG
Date: 18 Oct 19 - 04:49 AM

Well I am off to Musicport where people from many countries play music from their own and other cultures to great effect. Particularly looking forward to seeing this fabulous young band who received a standing ovation bother times they performed previously

http://varldensband.com/

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Kenny
Date: 18 Oct 19 - 04:40 AM

Mohsen lives in Glasgow, I believe his parents were from Iran and Ireland. Whether he is Scottish, Iranian, Irish or any combination of all 3 is up to him, and nobody else. His music is certainly based on the Irish tradition.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,RA
Date: 18 Oct 19 - 04:29 AM

Mohsen Amini is Scottish, not English!!!

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: r.padgett
Date: 18 Oct 19 - 02:35 AM

Singers with guitar accompaniment or other instrument ~ arrangements of traditional songs or /and contemporary or self composed songs

Unaccompanied singers singing mainly traditional style ballads and chorus songs ~ including industrial songs and shanties

Concert clubs meeting weekly/fortnightly monthly or regularly

Folk club with or without membership regular frequency of meeting

Audience or non singers or indeed singers supporting as audience

All support in terms of doing what is usual and more ~ a cheerful crowd out to enjoy themselves and the guest

Ray

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 06:07 PM

Firstly, CS. I have posted before that genuine asylum seekers should be helped to their nearest (in terms of culture and geography) safe nation and that, of course, may be England in some cases - e.g., persecuted Christians from Iran.

I don't know if that is Mohsen Amini's background but, either way, if he is "half Iranian and half English" he should, in my opinion, stay in England and practise English culture - such as accompanying Morris dancers with his concertina, or more challenging classical music with it (as I believe Alistair Anderson has got into a bit).

When I lived in Newcastle upon Tyne, there was an elegant old poet and poetry organiser who, I think, was a Christian from Iran.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Captain Swing
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 05:37 PM

So WAV, this is Mohsen Amini he is half Iranian and half English. He started learning the concertina when his sister started Irish dancing. He is a former Scottish Young Musician of The Year and a concertina virtuoso. Are you going to tell him he should really be playing Morris tunes on a qanun?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdcck3G8PXU

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Cj
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 05:19 PM

Culture has always spread throughout the world, ideas and songs, instruments, poems, stories, from village to town to city to country, along trade routes. Stopping it now, in the name of keeping something "English" just seems deadly dull and completely ignorant of history. As if every culture just arrived where it is today fully formed! I call Hogwash.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 05:10 PM

Just finished a band practice. Present: one Egyptian, one Turk. four Greeks, two Iranians, one Scot and me (English/Kiwi/Scottish, take your pick). Practiced four pieces, Iranian and Turkish/Greek (rembetiko) things we knew well, an easy Greek one we've nearly got down and a very complicated Arabic song it'll take a bit longer to get right. We'll try a Kurdish piece next week. All sorts of instruments, I mainly play Turkish ones. We play out quite regularly, if anybody near Edinburgh needs a typical Scottish band like us, just ask.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 02:56 PM

Wait a sec.. you got me so swept up and carried away with nationalist ferver
I momentarily forgot I'm an internationalist multiculturalist...

Phew.. that's some powerful stuff you're peddling...!!!???

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 02:43 PM

There's what we want and the tactics we are prepared to use, PFR - I prefer education and the non-violent non-cooperation of Gandhi, who, upon repatriation from South Africa to South Asia, did NOT say Europeans and their culture should stay in the name of internal ethnic diversity.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 02:33 PM

I've already got black steel toe capped boots.. no harm in being prepared...

I can always say I thought they were just nice for clog dancing...[nod..wink..]

Now to get some hefty sticks I can say are for morris dancing...

WE'll show those multiculturalists the cost of not respecting their own folk culture alright...

As a passing thought I don't look too good in a brown shirt, but if needs must...

Obviously, I'd prefer to wear a good traditional British Black shirt..

.. oh.. wait a minute... I'm sure this has been done before..?????

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 02:21 PM

...just quietly, PFR, I only have 5 sets of blackish trousers with white buttoned shirts, plus 2 fleeces and 2 suit jackets - on which I always do up the bottom button!

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 02:13 PM

Walky - yeah.. it's a brilliant idea to proscribe the music and art races/nationalities are not permitted
to enjoy and participate in...

Then we can all merrily stick to the oficial list of sanctioned national cultural activities...

I don't know why no-one has ever thought of trying that before..

can't wait...!!!

Bring on the right thinking kind of government asap...

Do we get uniforms as well...??? I look good in black or dark blue...

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 01:58 PM

...there are a lot of young English people enjoying steelpan music who could (without the relentless promotion of internal ethnic diversity here) just as well be enjoying their own good English folk music - and leaving steelpan performance to folks from Trinidad and Tobago.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 01:46 PM

this is true - think about songs like Blackand White , and Melting Pot that were in the charts and in the case of Black and White in the folk clubs.

We certainly thought and were taught differently in those days. What the NF and the other right wing gangs seemed to object to - was the friendliness between races....

I'm not sure how this impacts on the folk scene though WAV. i don't really think any foreigner coming into a folk club and doing a spot would be treated with anything other than courtesy. By and large - they don't come though, do they.

It was our project to make a go of, and we screwed it up bigtime.