The current state of folk music in UK

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Keith Price
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 06:22 AM

If " it's really pointless " to define folk and it doesn't as long as it's good why bother using the word folk ? surely you're just talking about music.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Iains
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 06:01 AM

I'M ALSO against all the attempts to define 'what is folk?'- it's really pointless, iMHO
I cannot disagree with you!


https://www.theguardian.com/books/2017/nov/11/folk-song-in-england-by-steve-roud
"These catchy tunes with their satisfyingly repeating choruses – the correct term is “strophic” – are part of a landscape that is recognisably communal without being nationalistic. And as for the fact that many of them turn out to be as arriviste as Sharp himself, it’s not clear why it should really matter."

The final phrase of the article is key!

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 05:47 AM

I've been on the edge of the 'folk' scene for many years & an infrequent visitor to the clubs so can't comment on the subject of the thread- I'M ALSO against all the attempts to define 'what is folk?'- it's really pointless, iMHO
I've played GD melodeon for 55 years, initially for barn dances in NE England, but never had any hangups about folk/pop/ distinctions. It doesn't mean I've forgotton that early exposure to the 'tradition', and songs and tunes picked up in those days are still very much in my repertoire, but mixed with the old 'pop' songs so denigrated by some people, although I've always found folk clubs pretty accepting of this attitude.

I make NO apology for playing & singing my own versions of songs by such as the Everly Brothers, Sam Cooke, Bing Crosby, Charlie Poole, Bonnie Tyler & Dr Hook, alongside more 'trad' stuff. It may not fit the pointless category of 'folk' music but it's very acceptable when I play in pubs, clubs, anniversary & village Christmas parties, where music is an important part of the proceedings.

How can you relate to normal people in a 'fun' Christmas situation WITHOUT playing Jingle Bells, Rudolph or Stop the Cavalry?

the last posts on here have been a vote for tolerance, so maybe there's hope yet?   Forget the hangups & get on with the great enjoyment to be had from the peoples' music.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 05:02 AM

My opinion too Dave.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 04:12 AM

I think if it is a good song with good lyrics it can cross genre boundaries quite easily. Just my opinion of course. This type of song can never become a folk song of course but, if done in a folk style, I would welcome any good music at my local folk club.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: r.padgett
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 03:31 AM

I am told that there are a number of "pop" songs that are now being sung
in an acoustic folk style ~ any thoughts on this?

Ray

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Dec 19 - 07:14 PM

Iwas at school with tom robinson, neither he nor i played in any of the school music groups, nice guy ,but if i waas going to select a pop song to be sung i would choose harry chapins, shortest story, in my opinion very powerful words and images

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,patriot
Date: 11 Dec 19 - 02:12 PM

Joe G- don't be so daft- how do you know whether I've heard it or not- what arrogance.
whether it was written by AN Englishman or a Russian, it is on a very Irish subject & based on an Irish state of mind much better comprehended by an Irishman- although I find the song to be a typically English view of a culture where English people see only the surface & will never understand the Irish.
IMHO Knightly's 'social comment' songs are annoying and pretentious.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Dec 19 - 01:41 PM

Shame about the beer :-P

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 11 Dec 19 - 01:07 PM

Last night I went to the Elsinore in Whitby. The session is run by Tony Maher, a superb mandolin player (amongst other instrument and vocals) and his good lady Angie (Autoharp and vocals).

They run a bloody good session.

Last night there were mandolin, fiddle, guitar, acoustic bass guitar, mandola, whistle and tenor guitar and numerous vocalist.

There were people from England, Scotland, Ireland, Holland and New Zealand including some well known professional and 'retired' professional performers together with a good number of visitors to the town and a scattering of locals.

Despite news to the contrary folk music is alive and well.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Joe G
Date: 11 Dec 19 - 11:26 AM

Phew - hope uninformed comments from patriot are no more and peace will prevail until then at least. Though it might get a bit tense later in the early 1960's!

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Dec 19 - 02:37 AM

Post 1945. End of the war! Only 9 more years to go before we have to define folk music :-)

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Joe G
Date: 10 Dec 19 - 08:44 AM

Showing your ignorance there - Given that Steve Knightley wrote the song I very much doubt it. Also it is set in England. Have you ever actually heard the song you feel compelled to criticise :-) Anyway he has written many other great songs including many making contemporary social comment. Perhaps it would be wise to actually know something about the artists before criticising them?

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,patriot
Date: 10 Dec 19 - 08:06 AM

Surely the Irish would make a better job of the 'Galway Farmer' than a bunch of English folkies?

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Joe G
Date: 10 Dec 19 - 05:56 AM

Not quite sure of your point re English folk singers singing about an event in another country years ago is?

Re Tom Robinson there are certainly many of his songs I'd be happy to hear in a folk club

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,patriot
Date: 09 Dec 19 - 12:29 PM

I'd say Tom Robinson & his songs have a lot more relevance to the modern world than a bunch of English folkies singing about events in another country many years ago.... wouldn't say Tom is a folksinge rbut maybe he is?

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Joe G
Date: 09 Dec 19 - 07:22 AM

Great interview with Steve Knightley from about an hour in with lots of Show of Hands tracks kicking off with a fantastic version of Galway Farmer from the Royal Albert Hall

War will break out if anyone tries to tell me Show of Hands aren't folk! ;-)

Tom Robinson interview with Steve Knightley

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Dec 19 - 05:47 AM

This is post 1939. I hope war doesn't break out again :-)

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,patriot
Date: 09 Dec 19 - 04:45 AM

No bad thing, DtG- I personally, would much rather listen to the popular music of the 1940s than 99.9% of the current crop of alleged & self-defined folk singers & musicians.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Mark
Date: 09 Dec 19 - 04:43 AM

"the usual way of tuning a twelve-string was to tune the other eleven strings to the one that was out of tune"

Can't resist the opportunity to firstly repeat an old friend's comment about hammered dulcimers -
Q: How long does it take to tune a hammered dulcimer?
A: Research is continuing.

and secondly repeat his suggestion of a last request if he was about to be executed - a 12-string guitar and time to tune it.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Dec 19 - 03:34 AM

Have you posted to the wrong thread, Dick?

Still, if it gets us into the 1940s it helps I suppose.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Dec 19 - 04:50 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Trains: Most beautiful locomotive
From: Dave the Gnome - PM
Date: 02 Dec 19 - 07:55 AM

That is very nice, Phil. Thank you.
what i suspected dave polshaw is a trainspotter as well as a gnome , he must sit in his garden with his rod out spotting and gaxing at his his beautiful locomotive

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Joe G
Date: 08 Dec 19 - 12:08 PM

Yes I was a bit worried there - it had all gone very quiet!

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 08 Dec 19 - 11:16 AM

I thought that's what the day of silence was for.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Dec 19 - 11:05 AM

Looked at my Suzuki harp and it is a "Folk Master". Not taken it apart yet so can't comment on the internals but it is great for Morris tunes in G. I got it when my concertina was out of action. Well worth £15.

Can we not get folk in the UK past the 1930's yet? :-)

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Dec 19 - 07:41 PM

"...there used to be an AA man who came to our club with a Suzuki 12 string, which he couldn't tune (but then who can....?)"

I remember the late lamented Bill Caddick, twelve-stringer par excellence, telling us at our folk club in the mid-90s that the usual way of tuning a twelve-string was to tune the other eleven strings to the one that was out of tune...

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Dec 19 - 03:31 PM

al, if you are thinking about the zoological gardens ,i believe it was written by d behan

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Vic Smith
Date: 06 Dec 19 - 03:16 PM

Much earlier in this thread at 25 Nov 19 - 01:59 PM I quoted from an article that I had written for Living Tradition on Sandra Kerr giving her opinion on 'The current state of folk music in UK' and her thoughts drew several compliments.

You can now read thia article in full at http://www.livingtradition.co.uk/articles/sandrakerr .... but don't just leave it there. The whole magazine is really worth reading - lots of articles, news, reviews, etc. In fact, with Christmas coming up soon, you could ask for a subscription as a present!

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Dec 19 - 02:34 PM

My wife's watching a programme on the Eden channel about Dublin Zoo. No mention of The Dubliners song as yet.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Dec 19 - 02:08 PM

Thankyou Steve Shaw for those insights into mouth organs.

I'll put it into my hard drive and keep it for when I know a bit more. I notice both you and dave rate Suzukis. i had no idea they did mouth organs.

I can remeber Suzuki guitars. there used to be an AA man who came to our club with a Suzuki 12 string, which he couldn't tune (but then who can....?)

I remember his Curragh of Kildare with particular anguish. It seemed to last forever.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Dec 19 - 12:45 PM

Only 30 posts to go.

Well, 29 now...

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Iains
Date: 06 Dec 19 - 11:24 AM

Get past 1954? I trust you jest!

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Dec 19 - 10:12 AM

The number of posts when I looked was 1923. Can we get the current state of folk music in the UK as far as 1954, then on to 2019 and beyond? :-)

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: r.padgett
Date: 06 Dec 19 - 10:00 AM

I do largely agree with Peter above ~ clubs which run as singarounds most weeks with occasional guest have to rely on those performing audience turning up and paying and not singing or the mc certainly has a job dissuading those club members from wanting to do their usual spot

This could well lead to the club folding ~ I think a committee can be a good idea and a bad one too!!

Choice of guest can also be a problem!!

Ray

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 06 Dec 19 - 07:19 AM

The issue has been the number of clubs that can't decide if they are running participative events or performance events. The two have different sets of values which don't mix. I have been to too many gigs where a guest ends up with sub 30 minute sets because "everybody" has to be allowed a go, even when they arrive more than half way through the eventing.

Performance based and participation based events both have their place but newcomers will be put off if they go to one type expecting the other.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 06 Dec 19 - 06:28 AM

What attracts the most people today clubs or sessions? Are sessions about AUDIENCES (someone elses capitals) or about PARTICIPANTS (my capitals).

Much of this discussion seems analogous to grumbles that the Music Hall isn't what it was or that people don't want to go to the pleasure gardens any more.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Iains
Date: 06 Dec 19 - 06:21 AM

I have to say that for me it is all about AUDIENCES ~in particular attracting new and newish customers
Success is gauged by bums on seats. An audience exists to be entertained. That means the performer must be an entertainer. Mediocre singing and playing can be overlooked if the package presented is good.
This encompasses everything from patter, presence, performance and program. Even if a performance is technically perfect, if the artist has the personality of a dead cod, it will likely bomb. Especially this time of year - who is going to go out into a cold wet night to a drafty hall to subject themselves to uncertain fare entitled folk?
   The popularity of the genre can be gauged by the attracted audience.
Could it be that the top end acts that can fill a theatre or headline a festival will be the way of the future, while the smaller acts will operate on a diminishing circuit of clubs? Unlike the situation in the 60's now anyone can find a clip on youtube and get a flavour of what is on offer. What attracts the most people today clubs or sessions?

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 06 Dec 19 - 05:18 AM

I have to say that for me it is all about AUDIENCES ~in particular attracting new and newish customers
That is something that too many clubs fail to consider, at least until the organiser has dipped into their bank account for one too many expensive guests.

While I was lucky enough to start at a club with particularly tallented residents it was the atmosphere that kept me coming back every week.

The situation has improved but in the 90s, when I had to move to a new area, I found a lot of clubs dismissive of anybody who walked in with the intention of listening and at least one (much aclaimed on Mudcat at the time) that was openly hostile to strangers who arrived without a guitar case.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Dec 19 - 04:52 AM

Belatedly, Al, but since you asked...

I haven't bought any new harmonicas for a good few years so be prepared for potentially outdated advice. First, never buy cheap harmonicas. The tuning and reed setup will almost certainly be wrong. Reeds are likely to blow out quickly (they go flat). A harmonica killer. Reed response will be uneven. On the other hand you can push the boat out and get harps customised, but a set of those will cost a ton of dosh. The happy medium is to buy decent-quality middle-of the-road harps (maybe up to and around £30) and if necessary make minor tweaks to suit your playing. Speaking of 10-hole blues harps, the only Hohner ones I ended up using were Special 20s, nice tone but not quite bomb-proof. Lee Oskars are good and loud and very resilient and you can buy replacement reed plates. For easy playability and even response my favourites are Suzuki Bluesmasters and Suzuki Promasters. Despite the price difference (Promasters are more expensive) they have the same reedplates, which have phosphor-bronze reeds (last longer than brass) which are spot-welded instead of riveted. The Promasters have metal combs, which I like. All the others I've mentioned have plastic combs, which are fine. I have never got on with Seydel harps. Others' mileage may vary.

If you prefer tremolo harps instead (I use both), you'll be very happy if you stick to Tombo Bands. Hohner trems are cans of worms. Suzukis have a good name but I've never had one. There are loads of cheap, useless trems around. A golden rule is to never buy harmonicas on eBay, and avoid used ones like the plague unless it's your uncle giving them to you for nothing.

As for tweaking, I mess about with fine tunings meself but that's a low priority. Oskars and Suzukis come in equal temperament, Special 20s something in between Just and ET. The one tweak I find occasionally necessary is to increase gaps a touch to avoid choking on hard playing. Low gaps are ideal for overblowing, but I don't do that. All you need to do the gapping is a screwdriver to get at everything and something like a thin feeler gauge to lift the reed tip. And a steady, gentle, confident hand. Gapping is the one thing that all harmonica players should teach themselves to do. Many years ago a great guy called Rod McDonald come to our folk club. He told me that he was peed off with his Lee Oskar because a note wouldn't sound when he hit it hard. He was about to ditch the whole harp. I could have fixed it in sixty seconds for him but he didn't trust me!

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: r.padgett
Date: 06 Dec 19 - 02:57 AM

I have to say that for me it is all about AUDIENCES ~in particular attracting new and newish customers(I hate the word punter) these people should be regarded as friends ~ some of the professional artist are extremely lucky and have little to do but rely on agents and lucrative booking venues ~ very many do not!

The attitude and snobby ones are a pain ~ folk music and song has its roots in songs of the people ~still ~ Saturday evenings in the pub and the continuity of the music hall style of entertainment of yesteryears

[in uk] the life blood is not just the performers it encompasses all interested people and the paying customer foremost ~ assuming the professional nature of the genre ~ the pub sessions seem to have a life of their own and continues to perpetuate the interest in music and song

Ray

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Dec 19 - 05:53 PM

well I was hoping to put a few blues and country flourishes. I haven't really started but I've bought several diatics on amazon, and one decent one that with a credit note i had at the local music shop.

The good one is a lee oskar

The cheap ones are BJ Blues, Swan, the Blues, Chord Blues ten, and howling harp blues.

I've noticed that the good one has deep resonant sounds whereas some of the cheap ones the notes seem to disappear on the draw notes.

I'm not really sure of where to go with this. Mind you it took me til September this year to settle down to the uke - and I really love it now I've started writing with it.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Dec 19 - 05:15 PM

Steve Shaw, i agree, they [CCE] could have done better. but they still must have some credit.
A LOT OF CREDIT MUST GO TO PARENTS AND TEACHERS

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Vic Smith
Date: 04 Dec 19 - 04:07 PM

Iains,
I agree that this is not the place for it, but I didn't introduce the subject here. Ask yourself if I would have made it if you had not made your provocative post. I have now had my say and will leave it at that.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Joe G
Date: 04 Dec 19 - 03:23 PM

Yes probably best to have more detailed political discussion elsewhere (I know I was, er, instrumental in starting it but probably better to focus on the music and artists here)

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Iains
Date: 04 Dec 19 - 03:14 PM

Vic Smith this thread is not about Education being a political football.
Open a thread on it and I am quite happy to elaborate on the theme.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Vic Smith
Date: 04 Dec 19 - 11:56 AM

Iains:-
It must be pointed out that the explosion in higher education in the UK occurred in the 60's and 90.s, both initiated under Tories

Like the posts of many Conservative apologists, this quotation and the post that it is taken from is highly selective, only partly true and skims around the full facts of the matter. How about mentioning alongside university education, the virtual devastation of college-based courses in engineering and other vocational courses for those who were never going to benefit from university education? How about the withdrawal of the Education Maintainance Allowance which helped the special education pupils that I taught to find their way into employment?
Rather than quoting what that party may or may not have done in the previous century, how about an apology for the devasting cuts that have crippled the provision of education in England - and many other branches of public services - because of the devastating austerity suffered in the last decade when they have been in power?

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,patriot
Date: 04 Dec 19 - 07:47 AM

OK I'm biased, and no UK Labour supporter- I was just trying to shed light on a few myths about Ireland, musically and otherwise...

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Jack Campin
Date: 04 Dec 19 - 07:47 AM

One aspect of getting young people involved is the issue of "entry-level" instruments. Like anyone else who plays just one or two instruments (mine's the harmonica...), I find this quite hard to judge

This is where the army came in handy. Generations of players could count on getting reliable ex-army-band flutes, bagpipes and brass instruments.

Schools mostly fail at communicating to parents that quality makes a difference. This is most obvious for recorders, where a reliably tuned, well-made instrument costs only a few quid - thanks to economies of scale these are the best value for money for any kind of instrument. But parents just don't get this and pinch pennies to get the absolute cheapest possible, which means unplayable rubbish. I imagine you'd get the same development with harmonicas if schools taught that.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: Iains
Date: 04 Dec 19 - 07:21 AM

It must be pointed out that the explosion in higher education in the UK occurred in the 60's and 90.s, both initiated under Tories. Likewise maintenance grants for tertiary education were started under the Tories. The introduction of University fees and abolition of the maintenance grant both occurred under Labour. Rather than blaming politicians perhaps the stage of the economic cycle should be studied.
As an aside all three of my children had the bulk of their primary, all their secondary and their tertiary education in Ireland. They are musically inept. The secondary school they attended has music as an extracurricular activity.

Subject: RE: The current state of folk music in UK
From: GUEST,patriot
Date: 04 Dec 19 - 05:50 AM

A breath of reality, thanks Peter Laban.
People in the UK have an image of Ireland being a land of traditional music- the reality is that visitors find very little unless they go to the real hotbeds (come in jim Carroll).

Likewise, Ireland has the same problems as UK after MANY more years of right wing government. Fianna Fail is just as arrogant and irresponsible as the UK Tories, and Fine Gael only marginally less so.
Ireland DOES have a sensible PR electoral system which allows left wingers like Paul Murphy and Ruth Coppinger a voice against Varadkar and his vile crew.
However unlike UK, where the farmers' lobby is critical, there is NO hope of any kind of social democratic government in Ireland.

If you want to hear about the social horrors of 21st century Ireland, nb you often need a strong stomach, just listen to Joe Duffy's phone-in every day about 2pm on RTE radio 1. It's not the easy-going, generous, forward looking paradise portrayed by Bord Failte !
And as for the music, it's true that the young folks are playing it more than in England, but like the UK, is anyone learning there's more to it than sitting with your pals, playing the notes from manuscript!!